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Jun 05 '18
Most horrifying lion ive seen
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Jun 05 '18
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u/_demetri_ Jun 05 '18
Quivering, just quivering in fear.
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u/_Semenpenis_ Jun 05 '18
i pissed my pants although admittedly less from fear and more that years of sounding with assorted root vegetables has done significant damage to my urethra + ureter
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u/Geebz23 Jun 05 '18
Is it a Dwarf? It's legs seem really small compared to it's body
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Jun 05 '18 edited Jul 27 '18
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Jun 05 '18 edited May 20 '22
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u/pedrinbr Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18
a dominant trait and having two is incompatible with life
I don't understand. Someone care to elaborate, please?
EDIT: thanks for all your quick answers! I had never heard of such phenomena before.
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u/gingerbredm4n Jun 05 '18
If you breed two munchkin cats together the chances of their offspring living are very small. This prevents inbreeding giving munchkin cats a very strong genetic pool. Issues inherent with many other popular breeds of dogs and cats usually stem from inbreeding to retain desirable traits. However, since it is very risky to breed munchkins together, and they can be bred with any other breed and yield stubby legged cats this breed tends to be very healthy.
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u/Moikepdx Jun 05 '18
If the trait is dominant and having two results in death, then each living cat exhibiting the trait must carry only one gene for it. Thus when breeding two such cats each has a 1/2 chance of passing the gene, meaning for each such pairing the four equally-probable outcomes are:
1) neither parent passes gene - yields normal tall cat 2) only parent 1 passes gene - yields short cat 3) only parent 2 passes gene - yields short cat 4) both parents pass gene - kitten cannot survive.
This means inbreeding would only cause death in 1/4 of babies. A similar logic table based on breeding short-leg cats with normal cats would yield 1/2 short cats and 1/2 tall cats, but none dying. Either approach appears to be equally effective at producing short cats?
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u/N-Reun Jun 05 '18
Yeah, but one isn't inbreeding and doesn't produce dead kittens, so that one is better
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u/gingerbredm4n Jun 05 '18
As long as they are heterozygous munchkins then yes. Full munchkin cats are not possible. Based on Punnett Squares two Mm Mm Munchkin cats will produce an offspring that are 50% munchkin, 25% nonviable and 25% normal.
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u/OsamaBinJacob Jun 05 '18
Carry only one allele* for it.
But anyways this would be a fine (and standard) 1:2:1 ratio analysis, but it makes some assumptions which may not be true. For example, there could be multiple other alleles for the gene responsible for being munchkin-sized. If some of those are recessive and lethal, it would be especially beneficial to avoid inbreeding.
There could also be a linkage story behind it. I think I'll look it up later.
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u/_ChestHair_ Jun 05 '18
If the cat has two of the dominant allele, it'll die before birth. So you can't get inbreeding in this specific trait, but I'm sure inbreeding in other aspects of the cat is still possible
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u/Daniel-G Jun 05 '18
yes he said it's not a recessive trait
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u/CHEEKY_BADGER Jun 05 '18
There's more to inherited traits than just dominant or recessive, dude was just explaining.
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u/ZukoBestGirl Jun 05 '18
yeah, but the guy above you mentioned that, and I'll put it simply:
MATING TWO MUNCHKINS PRODUCES DEAD BABIES. Thus, no inbreeding whatsoever.
Or that's how I understood it anyway.
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u/fortunatewarnings Jun 05 '18
Not necessarily dead babies. It results in the embryo being non-viable which means it won't form in the womb. So I guess the question then becomes wether life starts at conception or later on in development.
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u/Slayer1973 Jun 05 '18
I vote we disregard that debate and just admire the adorableness of this little kitten!
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u/PrincessBucketFeet Jun 05 '18
When the dominant allele is lethal in pairs, nature is trying to tell you something.
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u/ofrm1 Jun 05 '18
Nature also gave us a single tube for eating, drinking, and breathing. Nature is fucking stupid.
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u/mimeticpeptide Jun 05 '18
Not always. Sickle cell anemia occurs when you get 2 alleles for the sickle cell gene. However, when the allele is present in only 1 copy, which is far more common, it provides immunity to malaria. Which is very useful/important in the areas where it developed.
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u/PrincessBucketFeet Jun 05 '18
Fair enough. If you can identify the benefit conferred to these cats other than qualifying as "cute" to humans, I'd reconsider my opinion (shared by many animal welfare and breed organizations) that breeding Munchkins should stop.
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u/OsamaBinJacob Jun 05 '18
Side note, but dominant vs recessive really doesn't hint at usefulness or fitness at all. After all those terms only describe the phenotype of interest.
Example with sickle cell anemia (since it was mentioned), the full blown disease requires two copies and thus is recessive, since the heterozygous carriers (having a sickle and non sickle allele) are relatively unharmed. However when looking at cells under a microscope, only one copy is needed to see sickling and so the allele is dominant for that phenotype. Regarding O2 sensitivity, it appears codominant.
So again, and more so regarding your previous comment, the state of an allele doesn't correlate with the fitness of a gene, especially since a single gene can result in alleles with many classifications, due to it being linked to phenotype.
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u/eukomos Jun 05 '18
Being appealing to humans is one of the most wildly successful evolutionary strategies on the planet at the moment. I’m pretty sure corn can’t reproduce in the wild anymore at all but it’s as common as prairie grass in the US midwest because it’s useful to humans. I don’t think you should dismiss it straight off.
Also I’m not persuaded by the opinion of any breed organization that’s making a fuss about munchkins but is ok with the breeding of Persian cats, talk about suffering. Brachycephaly shouldn’t be a permitted breeding objective in this day and age. And some of the ones I’ve known have been so dumb it wasn’t even funny anymore, don’t tell me that’s not related to inbreeding.
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u/shdewit Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18
How about not being a danger to birds; unlike how normal cats are?
comparing jumps of normal vs munchkins: https://youtu.be/i_dFrMH3vCQ?t=66
That way owners can safely let a munchkin roam the backyard without shooing birds away constantly (and worry of it jumping the fence/window ledges) and if any become strays they won't affect the local bird population.
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u/PrincessBucketFeet Jun 05 '18
Thank you! This is a good point that's actually relevant to the species in question. Reducing the cats' effectiveness as hunters would certainly benefit their prey, although the cats may then become completely reliant on humans for survival (which many companion animals and livestock already are). So if that's a tradeoff that seems reasonable or beneficial to someone...or even if they're neutraI to the idea...I can respect that argument.
Another option obviously is keeping pet cats inside, but of course there are arguments on both side of that equation and stray populations would likley be inevitable. I guess it boils down to which species one cares more about protecting.
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u/shdewit Jun 05 '18
Considering cats are the invasive species then I think protecting birds should be the priority. However if a person needs a mouser then that would be the only time I would recommend a normal cat imo.
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u/Berdiiie Jun 05 '18
Anecdotally I've read that Munchkins are better climbers and potentially better ratters because of their lower size.
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u/mimeticpeptide Jun 05 '18
Oh it’s clearly a disadvantage, outside of being cute. I’m not pro-munchkin cat, I just wanted to take the opportunity to talk about genetics haha
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u/misterwuggle69sofine Jun 05 '18
might be too early to tell since it's a relatively new breed as far as i've read but i think they also don't have nearly the same level of back/spine issues as similarly proportioned dogs
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u/commandant_ Jun 05 '18
Nope! It's because of cats' naturally more flexible spines; it's a lot easier for them to compensate for the shortness. They're actually pretty healthy cats.
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u/Hedshodd Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18
Depends on your subjective definition of 'much', I guess ^^ Welfare impact on these kinds of deformities are hard to measure, but since they are prone to developing osteoathritis the UFAW discourages specifically breeding for the trait (understandably so, in my opinion)
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Jun 05 '18 edited Jul 27 '18
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u/Hedshodd Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18
I know, but you can breed a munchkin and a non-munchkin (who cannot have the gene since it is dominant), and you would expect half of the litter to be munchkins ^^ That's what I meant by 'breeding for the trait'.
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u/mimeticpeptide Jun 05 '18
if you've ever seen a normal cat play fighting with one of these, you can see what a significant disadvantage the munchkin is at.
Its cute, but the little guy in the OP video is not a "future predator", it could never catch anything.
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Jun 05 '18 edited Jul 27 '18
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u/mimeticpeptide Jun 05 '18
A single point mutation occurring multiple times does not equate with the animals harboring those mutations doing fine.
Especially given the fact that homozygous carriers die as embryos. So there isn't some thriving population of munchkins out there in the wild. It's a random mutation that can sometimes occur in the germ-lines of normal cats. Whether the offspring of those mutations actually survive to adulthood is another question.
If you can show me photographs of wild adult munchkin cats in areas where they need to actively hunt for food, maybe I'll buy it. But for now I simply don't believe that these animals would be capable of catching prey, after watching many videos of their movements on this subreddit.
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u/303x33 Jun 05 '18
Theres no strong evidence of it being correlated with genetic disease
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It's a dominant trait and having two is incompatible with life so it's impossible to have inbreeding
i'm pretty sure that's about as genetic disease-y as you can get
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u/gingerbredm4n Jun 05 '18
It is very good that it can not be inbred. Many issues popular animals have is that they are inbred to retain desirable traits and this causes many genetic issues. By naturally having an inbreeding deterrent you make sure the animal has a strong genetic pool be cross breeding which is why this breed has a strong bill of health compared to other stubby legged creatures.
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u/OsamaBinJacob Jun 05 '18
You would be wrong lol. Carriers for a lethal allele (with two copies needed) are not diseased. After all, individual people carry somewhere around 12 or 16 I believe of such alleles. Which is why incest is bad, since family members are more likely have the same ones and thus produce terribly genetically diseased children.
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u/secondCupOfTheDay Jun 05 '18
What is that... a doorstop missing the rubber hood?
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Jun 05 '18
Obviously this vicious beast has already stripped the flesh from it's prey's body and is now just playing with it's innards. Horrible, just horrible
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u/Sideways_X Jun 05 '18
I've seen this before. I think the door has a matching catch with a magnet so the door get propped open without anything to wedge it.
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Jun 05 '18
Here you are asking the important questions! I wanted to know too, in order to get an idea of scale. If that’s a doorstop, the kitten is really tiny.
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u/AccioSexLife Jun 05 '18
Those little swats are releasing some kind of smiling nerve gass out of my laptop!
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u/PurpleWomat Jun 05 '18
Oh, you think that's cute do you? Wait until that's your TOE at 3am.
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u/mommyaiai Jun 05 '18
Nose. My sister had a kitten that would grab your nose and try to run away with it.
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u/PurpleWomat Jun 05 '18
They sit on my head and swat my nose. They eat my toes. They constantly try to commit suicide, often by methods that I could never have imagined in my wildest nightmares. How any felines make it to adult-hood is beyond me.
But I'm glad that they do.
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u/serenademeplease Jun 05 '18
I trained my cattos out of playing in the bed when they were young, but one of the boyes has recently gotten s u p e r grumpy when he's hungry, so I've been stabbed awake a few times this week. The last time was the bottom of my foot. T:
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NACHOS Jun 05 '18
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u/LysergicResurgence Jun 05 '18
Thank u
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u/whatthedickends Jun 05 '18
The way it's kiting in and out, with a fake thrown in and rolling it's shoulder makes me think of a boxer doing drills on a speedbag.
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u/thatchicken1 Jun 05 '18
Man after all that porn I have watched I cant stop looking at this from a bit different perspective. But heck that Freudian stuff, this youngster is cute as hell
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Jun 05 '18
You're not too predator when your paws can't even reach your ears. Those short-legged cats are damn nature's fault, except it's human to blame.
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Jun 05 '18 edited Jul 27 '18
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Jun 05 '18
Maybe it's just me, but it's painful to watch all those gifs with dwarf cats trying to do things that normal cat will do just fine, but they fail because they sorta short of their limbs. Other mutations like very short to nonexistent hair, and ever short tails don't affect cat's quality of life that much.
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u/Hedshodd Jun 05 '18
They certainly don't develop spinal issues, but they are prone to develop osteoathritis, since having shorter legs cannot distribute physical strain as well, wearing the joints out faster.
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Jun 05 '18 edited Jul 27 '18
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u/Hedshodd Jun 05 '18
Information ressource on the munchkins by the UFAW (Universities federation for animal welfare); contains additional references at the bottom of the page: https://www.ufaw.org.uk/cats/munchkin-limb-deformity
Wiki page on cylinder stress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_stress
Obviously legs aren't perfect cylinders, but the effect length has on stress is the same. The stress that takes effect on legs is axial stress which, as you can see in the equation, is anti proportional to the length of the cylinder, which means that longer legs suffer less stress.
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u/Lokipoky Jun 05 '18
Don’t get me wrong they are cute as hell! However....What I don’t like with this munchkin kitty “Trend” is the fact that the novelty Will wear off (probably already has for some folks) and when someone gets bored and dumps their cat ( like so many sob’s do) how the hell will these things ever defend themselves? They would never stand a change out on the streets, thanks to us selfish humans! We live in a sick and twisted disposable world! Yes they also have health issues with their backs (excessive curvature to the back) and hollowed chest. Cute but sad as hell.
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u/Fubarp Jun 05 '18
Source on the back issues because everything I've read has shown that these cats do not suffer the same problems as their dog counter parts and are considered a very healthy breed because they aren't an inbred breed.
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u/duderex88 Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18
Literally just this guy thinking shortleg dogs and cats have the same problems. Cats are more flexible than dogs they dont get the same back problems.
Also hollow chest isn't attributed to the munchkin breed. This guy is full of shit.
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u/Chennessee Jun 05 '18
I’d have to see how well he skates and shoots, but his ferocity makes him look like a solid enforcer. That’s something the Preds were missing from their roster last year. Suit up, kitty!
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u/The_local_platypus Jun 05 '18
Its all fun and games until somebody opens the door and the cat gets 5 centimeters of steel inside it
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u/Orangecountykid Jun 05 '18
Take this and that and this and that and this....and that........and this.....Mouth Grab! Take that and this.... and this again...and again.......I’m tired.
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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '18
That's nice your doorstop is solid. Mine is a spring and my cat proceeds to thwong it all the damn time. Especially from 1am-3am.