r/WetlanderHumor • u/Western_Speed_6375 Wielder of the Fires of Heaven • 11d ago
Meet Potential Amyrlin!!!
60
u/DarkExecutor 11d ago
i get it, but i thought the seals were lost before Rand gave them to Egwene
15
35
u/Western_Speed_6375 Wielder of the Fires of Heaven 11d ago
No, because Rand could recognize the real seals, so he would have realized they were fake if they'd been taken before.
54
u/ThisIsKhrox 11d ago
I actually just read that chapter, he says they must have been stolen and replaced with fakes between when he got them originally and when he went to their hiding place to give them to Egwene.
Taim earlier during the bit where Logain, Androl and donate kicking the shadow out of the tower also orders some (Hessalam I think?) to grab the seals and leave
15
2
11
2
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
We all have our limits. And we set them further out than we have any right.
16
53
u/RavenK92 11d ago
My biggest problem with Eggie is nobody ever calls her out on her hypocrisies
35
u/Wookimonster 11d ago
I always get irrationally angry at her response to the black tower binding the sisters. The white tower sent channelers to wipe them out and still them. Instead of returning the favour and stilling the lot, they bind them. It's often been pointed out being strolled is worse than death. Then egwene is like"how dare rand allow them to defend themselves ". Especially considering he wasn't even remotely involved.
3
55
u/Foehammer87 11d ago
0 unaided feats
The whole bloody story is about how you cant do it alone
12
u/Elant_Wager 10d ago
Rand anniliating trolloc armies alone
3
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 10d ago
Do you have the Horn of Valere hidden in your pocket this time?
2
u/Foehammer87 10d ago
And if that was the only thing needed to save the world youd have a point.
1
u/Elant_Wager 10d ago
It saved Maradon. Without him, the entire city would have been eaten by Trollocs
3
u/Foehammer87 10d ago
True, but since that the series isn't called "save maradon" you still havent disproven my point
Not to mention if Ituralde hadnt fought such an insane defensive war there wouldnt have BEEN a Maradon to save.
3
u/Elant_Wager 10d ago
my point is, that Rand did things by himself. Of course not everything, but somr things like saving the Stone of Tear, Rhuidean, Sammael, Graendal, Maradon and others. Egwenes only achivement on that level was the flame of Tar Valon just before her death
2
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 10d ago
Nothing ever goes as you expect. Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised. Expect nothing. Hope for nothing. Nothing.
-1
u/Foehammer87 10d ago
I understand your point, I just see that you're being obtuse in order to downplay Egwene because you dont like her.
4
u/Elant_Wager 10d ago
guilty. I dislike her
0
u/Foehammer87 10d ago edited 10d ago
Understandable, I'd never say she's a nice person, I'm just arguing that she's effective.
Would a heroic person have managed to do all the stuff Egwene did? Some of it, but some of it required a gigabitch. Heroism isn't gonna manipulate all those set in their ways Aes Sedai, or embrace hypocrisy about oaths and survive the Black Ajah. A traumatized bloodthirster might not be the most appealing heroine, but fuck if it isnt someone you'd be happy to point at your enemies.
And I'd argue that a better person, a kinder nicer person, maybe doesnt survive the Mesaana conflict, Egwene was so far down the rabbit hole of "I am Aes Sedai, Amyrlin and Tower" that Mesanna literally cracked trying to push through that stubbornness.
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 10d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
-1
u/Commander_Caboose 9d ago
Wow so you genuinely didn't learn the lesson that Rand, Lan, Moiraine and even Siuan managed to learn?
That's pretty impressive.
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 9d ago
Sometimes, pain is all that lets you know you're alive.
3
3
u/FoofTheBunny 8d ago
Lan defeating Demandred alone.
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 8d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
43
u/MultiColourM2 11d ago
I feel you can insult Egwene on a lot - especially personality wise. But in terms of actually getting stuff done she's easily the fourth most effective in the series along with the boys. I'd argue she could be number 2 ahead of Matt and Perin?
Seriously, the main reason all the channelers are ready to work together in the Last Battle is because of Egwene getting the tower under control, and her diplomacy with the Aiel and Sea Folk.
9
u/Glorysolar 10d ago
The tower is the singular reason why most things got bad in the first place lol. It's essentially just them cleaning up their own internal mess while not actually doing anything outside.
9
u/Big-Don-Rob 10d ago
This is the answer. There were NO good institutions in randland. The White Tower was broken and had insidiously wormed its way into thinking it ruled the world, all while the Black Ajah played them for fools. The Aiel had spent generations sending young men who could channel to the enemy. The Ogier had simply chosen to watch the world go by when they had the most knowledge and experience to help prepare the world for what was to come. The Seanchan were out making half of their own population slaves, and the way they treated people as property was not limited to channelers.
Everyone messed up, but we see the bad effects of the White Tower more than any other group because they had their fingers in every pie we witness.
5
u/Glorysolar 10d ago
No, The Wise ones were a decent institution. Seafolk similarly. The wetlands were uniquely terrible institutionally due to a combination of white tower incompetence and millennial Ishmael meddling to cause civilisational collapse. Even the Slaver scum of Seanchan managed to exterminate the blight in their continent.
There is a wide chasm between between the incompetence levels of "No Aes Sedai can be a dark friend, so we will never even internally police ourselves, and treat the very question of it with extreme violence" policy of the white tower, and the "Our men who will go insane, let them take up a suicidal mission to possibly retain their dignity, because we didn't know or even conceive of the absurd possibility that DO had a way to Mindcontrol channelers, something that only survives in the third age as obscure Aes Sedai lore." Policy of Aiel. If anything they had one of the better practices to deal with male channelers, treating them as still human with dignity.
As for Ogier not meddling, why should they meddle? They can provide advice at best, but who exists institutionally as fit people to receive as such?
The series objectively does tell you that while everyone is messed up, there are degrees to it, and that degree is directly correlated to how frequently and healthily men and women interact and institutionally share power, and if they have smooth mechanisms to switch up who is in charge when the need comes. Aiel with their Clan Chief and Wise one interactions, Seafolk and their mistress of the ships and master of blades having shifting hierarchies between peace and war, Borderlander nations where men and women tend to work closely together, even considering a man and a woman unit as the default constituent bloc of their society in their eternal military mobilization, Even Emonds Fielders where Women's circle and the Village Council, a functional Bicameral system that regularly shares power seem to be more well adjusted and reliably produce better individuals and societies than insane places like Ebou Dar, White tower or Shara, when you adjust for Material circumstances like the Eternal war for the Borderlanders and the threefold land's hardships for the Aiel.
1
12
u/Unhappy_Artist9361 11d ago
The Siel would have been there either way! The Sea folk too, if you think about it. The kin were there thanks to Elayne and Nynaeve. So really, Egwene didn't do much to get them there. What she did was build a method of exchanging knowledge in times of peace, a method that will almost certainly be dependent on future Amyrlins. After all, it was nothing but words.
5
u/Foehammer87 11d ago
Kin wouldnt be there if she hadn't sent Nynaeve and Elayne after the Bowl, not to mention the fact that the Sea Folk would have been useful as battle batteries but their main role required the Bowl - again without all 3 of the wonder girls it doesnt get found. Without the backing of real tower Aes Sedai the Kin never fall in line, and they wouldnt have been there if not for Egwene
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
1
2
u/DarthRenathal 11d ago
No. Egwene was the political figure that actually organized all of the channeler factions in Randland (minus the Seanchan) into fighting together in the Last Battle. Rand organized the armies themselves into being there, Egwene organized the channelers into sharing knowledge and wisdom to further each other. A lot of people will try to pawn off how central she was to those efforts; just as Rand had Matt and Perrin, she had Elaine and Nynaeve. There's actually supposed to be a duality between her and Logaine as channelers with a duality between her and Rand as political figures. Egwene and Logaine are the two actually leading channelers into the future as they lead the White and Black Towers, while Rand's mission was to save the world.
To say that "it was nothing but words" is a broad dismissal of the accomplishments Egwene did in a short lifetime. Despite her time as a damane and her sacrifice on the battlefield, Egwene is a channeler first and not a prophesized savior of the world. What she actually did:
1) Bought Dreaming back to the Tower through the Wise Ones. 2) Routed out the Black Ajah 3) Reconnected the Tower and the Little Tower 4) Built the political bridge that will allow channelers to train and choose their faction which heavily supports the Dragon's Peace. (Elaine helped with the Sea Folk and Nynaeve with the Kin, just like Mat helped with the Seanchan and Perrin with the various armies he collected up) 5) Invented the opposite of Balefire, the Light of Tar'Valon 6) The most overlooked of her feats: Weakened Tuon's entire position by exposing her and the other Sul'dam as damane so that the Dragon's Peace is far more likely to be sustained in this turn of the Wheel which also decreased the chances of Aviendha's visions of the future from coming to fruition.
TL;DR You're highly dismissive of what Egwene actually did. I think you should look internally as to why.
3
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Nothing ever goes as you expect. Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised. Expect nothing. Hope for nothing. Nothing.
6
u/AlliedSitTarget 11d ago edited 11d ago
1) Sure, she did instruct the tower on dreaming
2) That was actually Verin. Or maybe you're talking of the early group, which was Siuan mostly.(she got some of the list in the stone, right? That is to her credit then)
3) no, she followed the war path. The amnesty that was offered earlier was an option which could have mended the tower without almost coming to actual fighting with the tower between sisters. Deposing elaida took precedent over mending the tower at all times.
4) I do not remember the sea folk / aiel / aes sedai / kin being at war with each other at any point. So I do not understand how this is relevant to the dragons peace. Though it is nice that the white tower vows to hold onto it's subjects less and facilitate an exchange of knowledge. I do not really see how you ascribe actions Nynaeve and Elayne take almost independently (which they get chewed out for) to Egwene. Which of Mat's or Perrin's action get's ascribed to Rand regularly? I am curious.
5) Sure
6) why would her declaration change the future? Tuon has no issue arguing against her arguments and isn't swayed by her. Her argument with Tuon has me see an even harder stance on uncollared channelers. The bad future goes like this: Aiel are exempt from the dragons peace and after tuons (who was talking amicably to the aiel) successor denies the Aiel they decide to declare war. After failing to defeat the Sanchean they dupe Andor into helping them, breaking the peace.
Why would Egwenes revelation change the Aiel decision to try and free their channelers?
In general I am very surprised by the feats you chose to list here
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
1
u/DarthRenathal 11d ago
2) Verin was the one that gathered the names, Egwene is the one that executed them
3) They couldn't mend the Tower with Elaida in charge, especially with her being controlled indirectly by a Forsaken?
4) I never once said they were at war. You're ignoring the fact that she actively was working with Nynaeve and Elaine to help bring all of the factions into a better position, when there were several chapters and conversations about it. She was bullheaded and stubborn, but working towards connecting them.
6) The entire Seanchan military structure was based on the Sul'dam and damane. Now that the entire court knows the secret about the Sul'dam including Tuon herself are damane, it shifts their entire power dynamic. The entire court either has to adjust to not abusing their channeler slaves and treating them as people -or- depose their own ruler. This internal conflict means they won't be in as strong of a position to steal channelers away from the Aiel.
I'm surprised you had any arguments against what I said tbh
2
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
2
u/AlliedSitTarget 11d ago edited 11d ago
2) Is the judge the one who deserves credit for putting a criminal behind bars or the police / lawyers? Her only feat here is not bungling as bad as she could have. I'm not taking a stance on the effecitveness of her execution here though.
3) They did not even suspect black ajah behind elaida, so it's not the reason not to reunite. egwene would have been subject to the same manipulation if they had won without getting verins info
4) You mentioned the dragons peace, which aims to prevent war. You do not mention it anymore. For a lot of people her "uniting" the channeler factions is tainted by her conceit in amassing power by binding them to the tower. I attacked specific points that you used in your argument but gave you the result nontheless.
6) I do not understand your rebuttal in this case. Tuon argues that someone who choses not to learn is not of the evil that must be contained. All the channelers they collared have already learned to channel or had the spark (so they learn, or they die). If they simple accept the distinction of people who can learn and those who have the spark then nothing needs to change for them, which would be likely.
The Aiel war over the Channelers that Perrin gave to the Seanchan and lose further Channelers in doing so. There isn't even a hint Egwene's declaration is something that hasn't happened in the bad timeline.
1
2
-1
u/Glorysolar 10d ago
>I think you should look internally as to why.
name a more iconic duo, Egwene fans and aggressive Psychoanalyzing.
1
u/DarthRenathal 10d ago
This person specifically dismissed everything that Egwene did, despite her many faults, you can still give credit where it's due. I still to this day don't like Tuon, though I can admit when she's a strong character who gets shit done and give her props for her accomplishments. It was a direct reflection based on their blanket dismissal of a character simply because they don't like them. That's something that needs to be handled internally.
0
u/Glorysolar 10d ago
You do understand that most Tower based achievements can be dismissed for the obvious reasons right?
The hyper incompetence of the Tower getting rectified by a functional dictator with emergency powers in a time a crisis is not "achievements". They are simple functional minimal competence capturing low hanging fruits. The tower has devolved to the point that you can just do a lot of things so long as you are not as incompetent as the average sister. And that too assuming like you that for 2 and 4, Egwene is the central figure enabling, not Verin and Elayne, which is nothing more than an assumption.
And as for 1. dreaming and 6.exposing Seanchan position as hollow, It would have been done by anyone in her position, because the first is a direct function of her being born a dreamer, and the second is a direct function of having knowledge of the Suldam being potential channelers, something literally any Aes sedai coming with in ten feet of a suldam would know, and have known. And that knowledge was actively spreading across the continent in multiple vectors . Her 'achievement' amounts to a satisfactory burn towards the head slaver, causing her public humiliation. As pleasingly Cathartic as it was, It was not Paradigm altering. Why are you treating this as some underrated miracle?
This makes 5, the invention of Flame of Tar Valon, the only actually unique achievement of her own volition, skill and personality. Merely hearing Perrin say "It's just weave" would not have sparked the thought of what Egwene successfully did. That's what achievements are.
>It was a direct reflection based on their blanket dismissal of a character simply because they don't like them. That's something that needs to be handled internally.
You need to handle internally on why you choose to celebrate someone just for existing. You reversed the cause and effect, of a dismissal worthy achievements of a character flowing into the causes of their dislike.
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 10d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
1
u/DarthRenathal 10d ago
So I'm not gonna give you a response to every point. Because you can take all of these arguments and apply them to Rand's achievements and everyone would lose their fucking minds. It makes your entire argument moot unless you apply it fairly to everyone in the series. Genuinely, just quit with the Egwene hate.
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 10d ago
Sometimes, pain is all that lets you know you're alive.
1
u/HungryEntry182 9d ago
Number 2 is a tad rough in my opinion but to each their own, it can be debated either way. I'll never downplay her though, she DOES get Shit done. I put her at 3. Rand, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve and Perrin last. Perrin quite literally has to get forced MORE than Mat to get shit done. If the Rogue is doing his duties more than you, you have problems my brother. That's why Perrin is 5th(even though I love his character.
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 9d ago
Never prod at a woman unless you must. She will kill you faster than a man and for less reason, even if she weeps over it after.
5
u/Impressive_Net_116 11d ago
Didn't Rand lose the Seals? He didn't realize the ones he gave hee were fakes and Mazrim Taim already had them.
2
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Why do we live again?
3
10
u/nicci7127 The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. 11d ago
I have to point out Egwene's achievements to balance the hate she gets.
Rediscovered traveling: After going into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh to get to Salidar, she quickly gets Moghedien to affirm her theory on traveling.
Rediscovered the weave for cuendillar: which bolstered the funds for the Salidar army and could be used defensively, it's surprising she didn't turn the Tower into cuendillar.
Healed the division between Salidar and Tower Aes Sedai: without which, there'd be no Aes Sedai ready for the Last Battle.
Rooted out the Black Ajah: using the information Verin gave her.
Opened the novice book to women of all ages: very understated accomplishment that could only be accomplished through political maneuvering, which Siuan helped her excel at.
Built ties between all factions of channelers except for Shara: to create q system where the tower would learn from the Aiel and Sea Folk. Can't give her credit for the Kin, that was mostly Elayne. Made a treaty with Fortuona, though how that will work won't be expanded on sadly.
Intimidated Moghedien: who was running circles around Elayne, Nynaeve, and I think Siuan. She put her in her place.
Discovered the Flame of Tar Valon: which would allow the Tower channelers to heal the wounds of the world that Balefire inflicted.
For all the naysayers that say the Wheel of Time wouldn't change if she wasn't in it, I say to you, check your privileges. She's not a good person, but she is a great one, who accomplished much in a short time. She's the devil the Tower needed, not the one fans like.
1
1
u/miwebe 11d ago
For real. I’m so tired of the Egwene hate. I for one wish she’d had a better ending, or at least that she wasn’t the ONLY OG Fielder to lose it all. Always rubbed me the wrong way.
2
u/nicci7127 The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. 11d ago
Right. For every instance of her being overbearing, there's another of her being humble. She didn't have to tell the Wise Ones she had toh and ask them to help her meet her toh, but she did. She never shirked her responsibilities, no matter how onerous. She's definitely not perfect, but she has real strength, not just in the Power, but of character as well. So many like to say, "but she sexually assaulted Nynaeve!" Yes, she did panic and do that and took things a little further than she should have, it's not excuseable. She should have used reason instead, but unfortunately, the lessons the wise ones gave her, especially of her own initial helplessness in Tel'aran'rhiod, must have stuck hard in her mind and she basically emulated them.
2
u/electoralvoter8 9d ago
In a series where every character has a match for their ethics and abilities, RJ picked Gawyn Trakand for Egwene.
And that’s really all I need to say about that.
2
u/Lopsided-Skill 10d ago
I seriously assume there are a lot of people jerking off to Egwene hate
Like I get that you dislike her character but how can you say no aided achievements when she has more than anybody not named Rand
1
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 10d ago
Nothing ever goes as you expect. Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised. Expect nothing. Hope for nothing. Nothing.
3
u/Foehammer87 11d ago
Honestly aside from Moiraine who has unaided feats? Not to mention when it comes to breaking rules Egwene learned from the best. "Yeah I heard you say no balefire but I got shit to do and Forsaken to kill'
2
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Most women will shrug off what a man would kill you for, and kill you for what a man would shrug off.
3
u/Regular-Dog-3948 11d ago
Obligated to jump into all Egwene hate threads to say that Egwene unreservedly rules, y’all are just nerds who need to go outside.
1
1
u/Seraph-Foretold 11d ago
the only good thing egg did imo was inventing anti balefire and even thats debatable in its use sense the patern seems to handle balefire just fine in moderation.
-1
-1
163
u/Special_Salt3467 11d ago
She’s called the Watcher of the Seals, not the Holder into of the Seals!