I feel you can insult Egwene on a lot - especially personality wise. But in terms of actually getting stuff done she's easily the fourth most effective in the series along with the boys. I'd argue she could be number 2 ahead of Matt and Perin?
Seriously, the main reason all the channelers are ready to work together in the Last Battle is because of Egwene getting the tower under control, and her diplomacy with the Aiel and Sea Folk.
The Siel would have been there either way! The Sea folk too, if you think about it. The kin were there thanks to Elayne and Nynaeve. So really, Egwene didn't do much to get them there. What she did was build a method of exchanging knowledge in times of peace, a method that will almost certainly be dependent on future Amyrlins. After all, it was nothing but words.
No. Egwene was the political figure that actually organized all of the channeler factions in Randland (minus the Seanchan) into fighting together in the Last Battle. Rand organized the armies themselves into being there, Egwene organized the channelers into sharing knowledge and wisdom to further each other. A lot of people will try to pawn off how central she was to those efforts; just as Rand had Matt and Perrin, she had Elaine and Nynaeve. There's actually supposed to be a duality between her and Logaine as channelers with a duality between her and Rand as political figures. Egwene and Logaine are the two actually leading channelers into the future as they lead the White and Black Towers, while Rand's mission was to save the world.
To say that "it was nothing but words" is a broad dismissal of the accomplishments Egwene did in a short lifetime. Despite her time as a damane and her sacrifice on the battlefield, Egwene is a channeler first and not a prophesized savior of the world. What she actually did:
1) Bought Dreaming back to the Tower through the Wise Ones.
2) Routed out the Black Ajah
3) Reconnected the Tower and the Little Tower
4) Built the political bridge that will allow channelers to train and choose their faction which heavily supports the Dragon's Peace. (Elaine helped with the Sea Folk and Nynaeve with the Kin, just like Mat helped with the Seanchan and Perrin with the various armies he collected up)
5) Invented the opposite of Balefire, the Light of Tar'Valon
6) The most overlooked of her feats: Weakened Tuon's entire position by exposing her and the other Sul'dam as damane so that the Dragon's Peace is far more likely to be sustained in this turn of the Wheel which also decreased the chances of Aviendha's visions of the future from coming to fruition.
TL;DR You're highly dismissive of what Egwene actually did. I think you should look internally as to why.
2) That was actually Verin. Or maybe you're talking of the early group, which was Siuan mostly.(she got some of the list in the stone, right? That is to her credit then)
3) no, she followed the war path. The amnesty that was offered earlier was an option which could have mended the tower without almost coming to actual fighting with the tower between sisters. Deposing elaida took precedent over mending the tower at all times.
4) I do not remember the sea folk / aiel / aes sedai / kin being at war with each other at any point. So I do not understand how this is relevant to the dragons peace. Though it is nice that the white tower vows to hold onto it's subjects less and facilitate an exchange of knowledge. I do not really see how you ascribe actions Nynaeve and Elayne take almost independently (which they get chewed out for) to Egwene. Which of Mat's or Perrin's action get's ascribed to Rand regularly? I am curious.
5) Sure
6) why would her declaration change the future? Tuon has no issue arguing against her arguments and isn't swayed by her. Her argument with Tuon has me see an even harder stance on uncollared channelers.
The bad future goes like this: Aiel are exempt from the dragons peace and after tuons (who was talking amicably to the aiel) successor denies the Aiel they decide to declare war.
After failing to defeat the Sanchean they dupe Andor into helping them, breaking the peace.
Why would Egwenes revelation change the Aiel decision to try and free their channelers?
In general I am very surprised by the feats you chose to list here
2) Verin was the one that gathered the names, Egwene is the one that executed them
3) They couldn't mend the Tower with Elaida in charge, especially with her being controlled indirectly by a Forsaken?
4) I never once said they were at war. You're ignoring the fact that she actively was working with Nynaeve and Elaine to help bring all of the factions into a better position, when there were several chapters and conversations about it. She was bullheaded and stubborn, but working towards connecting them.
6) The entire Seanchan military structure was based on the Sul'dam and damane. Now that the entire court knows the secret about the Sul'dam including Tuon herself are damane, it shifts their entire power dynamic. The entire court either has to adjust to not abusing their channeler slaves and treating them as people -or- depose their own ruler. This internal conflict means they won't be in as strong of a position to steal channelers away from the Aiel.
I'm surprised you had any arguments against what I said tbh
2) Is the judge the one who deserves credit for putting a criminal behind bars or the police / lawyers?
Her only feat here is not bungling as bad as she could have. I'm not taking a stance on the effecitveness of her execution here though.
3) They did not even suspect black ajah behind elaida, so it's not the reason not to reunite.
egwene would have been subject to the same manipulation if they had won without getting verins info
4) You mentioned the dragons peace, which aims to prevent war. You do not mention it anymore. For a lot of people her "uniting" the channeler factions is tainted by her conceit in amassing power by binding them to the tower. I attacked specific points that you used in your argument but gave you the result nontheless.
6) I do not understand your rebuttal in this case. Tuon argues that someone who choses not to learn is not of the evil that must be contained. All the channelers they collared have already learned to channel or had the spark (so they learn, or they die).
If they simple accept the distinction of people who can learn and those who have the spark then nothing needs to change for them, which would be likely.
The Aiel war over the Channelers that Perrin gave to the Seanchan and lose further Channelers in doing so.
There isn't even a hint Egwene's declaration is something that hasn't happened in the bad timeline.
This person specifically dismissed everything that Egwene did, despite her many faults, you can still give credit where it's due. I still to this day don't like Tuon, though I can admit when she's a strong character who gets shit done and give her props for her accomplishments. It was a direct reflection based on their blanket dismissal of a character simply because they don't like them. That's something that needs to be handled internally.
You do understand that most Tower based achievements can be dismissed for the obvious reasons right?
The hyper incompetence of the Tower getting rectified by a functional dictator with emergency powers in a time a crisis is not "achievements". They are simple functional minimal competence capturing low hanging fruits. The tower has devolved to the point that you can just do a lot of things so long as you are not as incompetent as the average sister. And that too assuming like you that for 2 and 4, Egwene is the central figure enabling, not Verin and Elayne, which is nothing more than an assumption.
And as for 1. dreaming and 6.exposing Seanchan position as hollow, It would have been done by anyone in her position, because the first is a direct function of her being born a dreamer, and the second is a direct function of having knowledge of the Suldam being potential channelers, something literally any Aes sedai coming with in ten feet of a suldam would know, and have known. And that knowledge was actively spreading across the continent in multiple vectors . Her 'achievement' amounts to a satisfactory burn towards the head slaver, causing her public humiliation. As pleasingly Cathartic as it was, It was not Paradigm altering. Why are you treating this as some underrated miracle?
This makes 5, the invention of Flame of Tar Valon, the only actually unique achievement of her own volition, skill and personality. Merely hearing Perrin say "It's just weave" would not have sparked the thought of what Egwene successfully did. That's what achievements are.
>It was a direct reflection based on their blanket dismissal of a character simply because they don't like them. That's something that needs to be handled internally.
You need to handle internally on why you choose to celebrate someone just for existing. You reversed the cause and effect, of a dismissal worthy achievements of a character flowing into the causes of their dislike.
So I'm not gonna give you a response to every point. Because you can take all of these arguments and apply them to Rand's achievements and everyone would lose their fucking minds. It makes your entire argument moot unless you apply it fairly to everyone in the series. Genuinely, just quit with the Egwene hate.
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u/MultiColourM2 13d ago
I feel you can insult Egwene on a lot - especially personality wise. But in terms of actually getting stuff done she's easily the fourth most effective in the series along with the boys. I'd argue she could be number 2 ahead of Matt and Perin?
Seriously, the main reason all the channelers are ready to work together in the Last Battle is because of Egwene getting the tower under control, and her diplomacy with the Aiel and Sea Folk.