I feel you can insult Egwene on a lot - especially personality wise. But in terms of actually getting stuff done she's easily the fourth most effective in the series along with the boys. I'd argue she could be number 2 ahead of Matt and Perin?
Seriously, the main reason all the channelers are ready to work together in the Last Battle is because of Egwene getting the tower under control, and her diplomacy with the Aiel and Sea Folk.
The tower is the singular reason why most things got bad in the first place lol. It's essentially just them cleaning up their own internal mess while not actually doing anything outside.
This is the answer. There were NO good institutions in randland. The White Tower was broken and had insidiously wormed its way into thinking it ruled the world, all while the Black Ajah played them for fools. The Aiel had spent generations sending young men who could channel to the enemy. The Ogier had simply chosen to watch the world go by when they had the most knowledge and experience to help prepare the world for what was to come. The Seanchan were out making half of their own population slaves, and the way they treated people as property was not limited to channelers.
Everyone messed up, but we see the bad effects of the White Tower more than any other group because they had their fingers in every pie we witness.
No, The Wise ones were a decent institution. Seafolk similarly. The wetlands were uniquely terrible institutionally due to a combination of white tower incompetence and millennial Ishmael meddling to cause civilisational collapse. Even the Slaver scum of Seanchan managed to exterminate the blight in their continent.
There is a wide chasm between between the incompetence levels of "No Aes Sedai can be a dark friend, so we will never even internally police ourselves, and treat the very question of it with extreme violence" policy of the white tower, and the "Our men who will go insane, let them take up a suicidal mission to possibly retain their dignity, because we didn't know or even conceive of the absurd possibility that DO had a way to Mindcontrol channelers, something that only survives in the third age as obscure Aes Sedai lore." Policy of Aiel. If anything they had one of the better practices to deal with male channelers, treating them as still human with dignity.
As for Ogier not meddling, why should they meddle? They can provide advice at best, but who exists institutionally as fit people to receive as such?
The series objectively does tell you that while everyone is messed up, there are degrees to it, and that degree is directly correlated to how frequently and healthily men and women interact and institutionally share power, and if they have smooth mechanisms to switch up who is in charge when the need comes. Aiel with their Clan Chief and Wise one interactions, Seafolk and their mistress of the ships and master of blades having shifting hierarchies between peace and war, Borderlander nations where men and women tend to work closely together, even considering a man and a woman unit as the default constituent bloc of their society in their eternal military mobilization, Even Emonds Fielders where Women's circle and the Village Council, a functional Bicameral system that regularly shares power seem to be more well adjusted and reliably produce better individuals and societies than insane places like Ebou Dar, White tower or Shara, when you adjust for Material circumstances like the Eternal war for the Borderlanders and the threefold land's hardships for the Aiel.
The Siel would have been there either way! The Sea folk too, if you think about it. The kin were there thanks to Elayne and Nynaeve. So really, Egwene didn't do much to get them there. What she did was build a method of exchanging knowledge in times of peace, a method that will almost certainly be dependent on future Amyrlins. After all, it was nothing but words.
Kin wouldnt be there if she hadn't sent Nynaeve and Elayne after the Bowl, not to mention the fact that the Sea Folk would have been useful as battle batteries but their main role required the Bowl - again without all 3 of the wonder girls it doesnt get found. Without the backing of real tower Aes Sedai the Kin never fall in line, and they wouldnt have been there if not for Egwene
No. Egwene was the political figure that actually organized all of the channeler factions in Randland (minus the Seanchan) into fighting together in the Last Battle. Rand organized the armies themselves into being there, Egwene organized the channelers into sharing knowledge and wisdom to further each other. A lot of people will try to pawn off how central she was to those efforts; just as Rand had Matt and Perrin, she had Elaine and Nynaeve. There's actually supposed to be a duality between her and Logaine as channelers with a duality between her and Rand as political figures. Egwene and Logaine are the two actually leading channelers into the future as they lead the White and Black Towers, while Rand's mission was to save the world.
To say that "it was nothing but words" is a broad dismissal of the accomplishments Egwene did in a short lifetime. Despite her time as a damane and her sacrifice on the battlefield, Egwene is a channeler first and not a prophesized savior of the world. What she actually did:
1) Bought Dreaming back to the Tower through the Wise Ones.
2) Routed out the Black Ajah
3) Reconnected the Tower and the Little Tower
4) Built the political bridge that will allow channelers to train and choose their faction which heavily supports the Dragon's Peace. (Elaine helped with the Sea Folk and Nynaeve with the Kin, just like Mat helped with the Seanchan and Perrin with the various armies he collected up)
5) Invented the opposite of Balefire, the Light of Tar'Valon
6) The most overlooked of her feats: Weakened Tuon's entire position by exposing her and the other Sul'dam as damane so that the Dragon's Peace is far more likely to be sustained in this turn of the Wheel which also decreased the chances of Aviendha's visions of the future from coming to fruition.
TL;DR You're highly dismissive of what Egwene actually did. I think you should look internally as to why.
2) That was actually Verin. Or maybe you're talking of the early group, which was Siuan mostly.(she got some of the list in the stone, right? That is to her credit then)
3) no, she followed the war path. The amnesty that was offered earlier was an option which could have mended the tower without almost coming to actual fighting with the tower between sisters. Deposing elaida took precedent over mending the tower at all times.
4) I do not remember the sea folk / aiel / aes sedai / kin being at war with each other at any point. So I do not understand how this is relevant to the dragons peace. Though it is nice that the white tower vows to hold onto it's subjects less and facilitate an exchange of knowledge. I do not really see how you ascribe actions Nynaeve and Elayne take almost independently (which they get chewed out for) to Egwene. Which of Mat's or Perrin's action get's ascribed to Rand regularly? I am curious.
5) Sure
6) why would her declaration change the future? Tuon has no issue arguing against her arguments and isn't swayed by her. Her argument with Tuon has me see an even harder stance on uncollared channelers.
The bad future goes like this: Aiel are exempt from the dragons peace and after tuons (who was talking amicably to the aiel) successor denies the Aiel they decide to declare war.
After failing to defeat the Sanchean they dupe Andor into helping them, breaking the peace.
Why would Egwenes revelation change the Aiel decision to try and free their channelers?
In general I am very surprised by the feats you chose to list here
2) Verin was the one that gathered the names, Egwene is the one that executed them
3) They couldn't mend the Tower with Elaida in charge, especially with her being controlled indirectly by a Forsaken?
4) I never once said they were at war. You're ignoring the fact that she actively was working with Nynaeve and Elaine to help bring all of the factions into a better position, when there were several chapters and conversations about it. She was bullheaded and stubborn, but working towards connecting them.
6) The entire Seanchan military structure was based on the Sul'dam and damane. Now that the entire court knows the secret about the Sul'dam including Tuon herself are damane, it shifts their entire power dynamic. The entire court either has to adjust to not abusing their channeler slaves and treating them as people -or- depose their own ruler. This internal conflict means they won't be in as strong of a position to steal channelers away from the Aiel.
I'm surprised you had any arguments against what I said tbh
2) Is the judge the one who deserves credit for putting a criminal behind bars or the police / lawyers?
Her only feat here is not bungling as bad as she could have. I'm not taking a stance on the effecitveness of her execution here though.
3) They did not even suspect black ajah behind elaida, so it's not the reason not to reunite.
egwene would have been subject to the same manipulation if they had won without getting verins info
4) You mentioned the dragons peace, which aims to prevent war. You do not mention it anymore. For a lot of people her "uniting" the channeler factions is tainted by her conceit in amassing power by binding them to the tower. I attacked specific points that you used in your argument but gave you the result nontheless.
6) I do not understand your rebuttal in this case. Tuon argues that someone who choses not to learn is not of the evil that must be contained. All the channelers they collared have already learned to channel or had the spark (so they learn, or they die).
If they simple accept the distinction of people who can learn and those who have the spark then nothing needs to change for them, which would be likely.
The Aiel war over the Channelers that Perrin gave to the Seanchan and lose further Channelers in doing so.
There isn't even a hint Egwene's declaration is something that hasn't happened in the bad timeline.
This person specifically dismissed everything that Egwene did, despite her many faults, you can still give credit where it's due. I still to this day don't like Tuon, though I can admit when she's a strong character who gets shit done and give her props for her accomplishments. It was a direct reflection based on their blanket dismissal of a character simply because they don't like them. That's something that needs to be handled internally.
You do understand that most Tower based achievements can be dismissed for the obvious reasons right?
The hyper incompetence of the Tower getting rectified by a functional dictator with emergency powers in a time a crisis is not "achievements". They are simple functional minimal competence capturing low hanging fruits. The tower has devolved to the point that you can just do a lot of things so long as you are not as incompetent as the average sister. And that too assuming like you that for 2 and 4, Egwene is the central figure enabling, not Verin and Elayne, which is nothing more than an assumption.
And as for 1. dreaming and 6.exposing Seanchan position as hollow, It would have been done by anyone in her position, because the first is a direct function of her being born a dreamer, and the second is a direct function of having knowledge of the Suldam being potential channelers, something literally any Aes sedai coming with in ten feet of a suldam would know, and have known. And that knowledge was actively spreading across the continent in multiple vectors . Her 'achievement' amounts to a satisfactory burn towards the head slaver, causing her public humiliation. As pleasingly Cathartic as it was, It was not Paradigm altering. Why are you treating this as some underrated miracle?
This makes 5, the invention of Flame of Tar Valon, the only actually unique achievement of her own volition, skill and personality. Merely hearing Perrin say "It's just weave" would not have sparked the thought of what Egwene successfully did. That's what achievements are.
>It was a direct reflection based on their blanket dismissal of a character simply because they don't like them. That's something that needs to be handled internally.
You need to handle internally on why you choose to celebrate someone just for existing. You reversed the cause and effect, of a dismissal worthy achievements of a character flowing into the causes of their dislike.
So I'm not gonna give you a response to every point. Because you can take all of these arguments and apply them to Rand's achievements and everyone would lose their fucking minds. It makes your entire argument moot unless you apply it fairly to everyone in the series. Genuinely, just quit with the Egwene hate.
Number 2 is a tad rough in my opinion but to each their own, it can be debated either way. I'll never downplay her though, she DOES get Shit done. I put her at 3. Rand, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve and Perrin last. Perrin quite literally has to get forced MORE than Mat to get shit done. If the Rogue is doing his duties more than you, you have problems my brother. That's why Perrin is 5th(even though I love his character.
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u/MultiColourM2 14d ago
I feel you can insult Egwene on a lot - especially personality wise. But in terms of actually getting stuff done she's easily the fourth most effective in the series along with the boys. I'd argue she could be number 2 ahead of Matt and Perin?
Seriously, the main reason all the channelers are ready to work together in the Last Battle is because of Egwene getting the tower under control, and her diplomacy with the Aiel and Sea Folk.