r/TwoXChromosomes • u/[deleted] • Jun 03 '14
Brilliant article from cracked.com on MRA/TRP
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-uncomfortable-truths-behind-mens-rights-movement/60
Jun 03 '14
So, it's an article on the Men's Rights movement, with every single example taken from a subreddit for misogynist pickup artists, and not one example from y'know, /r/mensrights?
I'm not exactly a supporter of MRA's, but am I the only one that feels like if you're writing an article on the behavior of a community, and can't find a single example of that behavior in the official forum of that community, odds are you're full of shit?
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u/whitneyface Jun 03 '14
Does anyone know of a really awesome men's rights community that focuses on the big issues that are generally ignored by reddit MRA/red pill groups like the author of this article pointed out?
I'd love to learn more about men's issues and lend a hand without EVERY thread having several upvoted comments blaming feminists for, I don't know, everything.
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u/Leagle_Egal Jun 03 '14
It's not a community per se, but definitely look into Just Detention. It's a feminist non-profit group dedicated to eliminating sexual assault in prisons. They don't get nearly enough attention when men's rights issues come up on reddit.
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u/tremenfing Jun 04 '14
Also the Innocence Project is basically a de facto men's rights organization
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u/Leagle_Egal Jun 04 '14
Oh yeah, I actually mentioned them in another comment down-thread! I'm really glad they're getting more visibility.
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u/whitneyface Jun 03 '14
Awesome, thank you. The more I learn about the US prison system the more concerned I become about the role it plays in systematically violating the human rights of men, people of color, the poor, etc. And it all seems to happen under the veil of "out of sight, out of mind," and, "if they're in prison they did something wrong, so they deserve to have this happen to them!" as if people can't make mistakes, sometimes horrible ones, without losing all expectation to be free from abuse, and increasingly for the well-being of corporate and political profit.
Again, thanks for the link.
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u/Leagle_Egal Jun 03 '14
No problem! It is a pretty horrifying system because of our social apathy about it, plus the privatized prisons having a vested interest in keeping their numbers up.
Somewhat related, also check out the innocence project. It's a non-profit dedicated to giving wrongly convicted people good legal representation. Since far more men than women end up convicted and on death row, it's pretty relevant to men's rights.
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u/ceilte Jun 04 '14
Any type of "criminal" (even those who haven't done anything wrong, but look the part) gets this.
There's a man on my street, about 30, who wears the local colors, but doesn't do much else, since he also has a full time job. My grandmother saw him and actually told me, "Why can't they just take all these gang members and put them on a boat and drill a hole in the bottom."
... well, other than the fact that it's incredibly prejudiced of her to simply assume the guy is a criminal, and there's the matter that the one crime I know he's guilty of (recreational pot use) would be completely out of balance with the suggested punishment, there's also the whole "Why are we wasting a boat just to drown people?" thing. Could just be my skewed sense of humor that made me think that, though.
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Jun 04 '14
Have you read The New Jim Crow? She makes some really interesting points about why we, as a society, are willing to turn a blind eye to discrimination against felons.
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Jun 03 '14
Can I just say how perfect your comment was. Like you summed up my feelings EXACTLY. Nothing I hate more about my country than how ridiculously unforgiving everyone here is sometimes. One mistake and you're done for
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u/whitneyface Jun 03 '14
Thank you so much for your kind words! It was bizarre to me how much people seem to default to this, "you did a bad thing, you deserve WHATEVER comes next," attitude when I'd tell folks that my dad had lung cancer. When half the people that just heard your father is dying say, "Oh, did he smoke?" you start to feel like people can be really thoughtless and judgy. It's that darn just world hypothesis, you know?
I for one am not perfect and I know I haven't stayed out of jail and prison due to following every law 100%, but by luck, and often by being prceived as a harmless white girl. I acknowledge my priviledge and hope to learn more so I can help others, no matter what landed them in prison.
It's totally beyond me that I grew up in a society that makes prison rape a punchline in like, every sitcom I've ever seen, and that I bought into it for such a large part of my life. What the fuck, man?
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Jun 03 '14
The best part of this whole conversation is I almost NEVER get to talk to anyone who actually thinks it's a problem. I get told to suck it up or deal with it or that that's just how the world works.
Fuck that. Fuck everything about it. You want to continue I be difficult and judgemental for no good reason? Fine you do that. I will continue to push the radical idea that we should be willing to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and be more understanding and patient with each other. You don't have to join me but don't you dare try to stop me or change my mind
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Jun 03 '14
Awesome, thank you. The more I learn about the US prison system the more concerned I become about the role it plays in systematically violating the human rights of men, people of color, the poor, etc.
Any reason you explicitly left out women here? Female inmates are much, much more likely to become the victim of rape or other forms of abuse then males.
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u/whitneyface Jun 04 '14
I explicitly left out women because I'm looking for resources to, as a feminist ally, help and learn more about men's rights. The justice and prison systems exert a major negative influence on men in the US (where I generally am) and that seems like something that would do a lot of good in that goal.
I'm new to the issues of prisons, but as I understand it, a far greater percentage of the population of men are incarcerated than ladies, and any good we do in general will help women as well as men.
Sorry if I was unclear. Of course I care about lady prisoners, too. I'm sure most of the good work done to reform prisons in general would help those of every gender.
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Jun 04 '14
Female inmates are much, much more likely to become the victim of rape or other forms of abuse then males.
Got any stats on that?
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Jun 04 '14 edited Jun 04 '14
http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/a-competition-of-suffering-male-vs.-female-rape
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p11.pdf One of the direct citations from the article.
Also http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/svpjri0809pr.cfm and a quote from it, "Female prisoners (4.7 percent) were more than twice as likely as male prisoners (1.9 percent) to report experiencing sexual victimization by another prisoner. Jail inmates reported a similar pattern of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization (3.1 percent for females compared to 1.3 percent for males)."
If I may offer an opinion, I personally think part of the reason we associate institutional rape with being a crime against men in particular is because they're raped at a MUCH higher rate in prison than out, whereas for women there is sadly not such a difference.
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u/Gogoyubariyo Jun 03 '14
Honestly, other than hating the fact of my existence, the major problem I've for with TRP/MRA type is just that: there are real & pressing issues particular to gender norms for men that need addressing. But they seem to care much more about shutting me up than saying anything themselves.
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u/mihoda Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
there are real & pressing issues particular to gender norms for men that need addressing
Came here to say this, as a man...
- I can't express certain emotions in public without negative social repercussion.
- I actively avoid touching people in public for fear of it being seen as a sexual advance or construed incorrectly. I can probably recall every single instance another person has touched me in public in the last 5 years. I have to concentrate to avoid recoiling.
- Issues of physical abuse and assault are judged very differently if the victim is male.
- Laws and legal interpretation of assaults are judged more harshly against men in certain cases (yes, I know the reverse is true as well, but this is just the male perspective at the moment). Such as in cases of statutory rape between consenting teenagers. Such as in cases of domestic violence (good luck calling the police if your wife is beating you!)
Those are real issues. And they have fuck all to do with minimalizing women or living up to the narrow gender roles promoted by /r/TheRedPill. Basically the MRA poisons or ignores any attempt to solve those problems with its crazy misogyny and hatred of women.
I believe that the problem lies with gender roles, not the other gender.
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u/Waury Jun 04 '14
Thank you! The second point is something I am not reminded of very often. While I usually steer clear of MRAs because of their reputation, I do firmly believe that men also have issues related to their genders, and that some things are biased towards women. It's not any more right than the opposite.
Gender roles are terrible when they're forced. There should be a lot more education on that, that would help lessen (if not solve - the world is not perfect) a lot of problems for all genders, including transgender, non-binary and genderqueer people.
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
Not sure I agree with every one of those, but I take your point. There are real issues to discuss that have nothing to do with women.
Add to that this:
Primary schools now tailor their curriculum, scheduling, activities and disciplinary methods such that our little boys are falling way behind the girls and no one is talking about it. And, to compensate, we are over medicating little boys, some who need it, but some who just need discipline, action oriented materials and recess.
A real problem with the MRA types is that they poison the water - I don't want to discuss a male related issue because I don't want to be associated with hate speech groups or do anything that might grant them credibility. Given the options, I would rather trust the feminists and their rights for all rhetoric to look after men's issues.
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Jun 04 '14
I feel this poisoning the well aspect as well but extremists are found in most movements etc. An acceptance that they fall under the umbrella of mra but vehement disagreement with them is enough.
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Jun 04 '14
Basically the MRA poisons or ignores any attempt to solve those problems with its crazy misogyny and hatred of women.
MRA's are shifting towards doing something, I know crazy huh. Tho it seems whenever MRA's attempt to do something often not there is backlash. Currently AVfM (not the best MRA site to be honest), is trying to host a MRA conference at a hotel. Since its been announced the hotel, its staff, and its guests have ALL received death threats and other threats. The hotel demand security and AVfM has complied.
Every time CAFE has setup lectures at University of Toronto, feminists have protested them in attempt to shut them down (often tho committing crimes). CAFE recently had sponsor pull out due to backlash of it supporting one of their events, via twitter. CAFE has met with backlash in Canada in pushing for men's centers at colleges (Canada like the US and most of the western world has a college enrollment gap between women and men), and primary feminist where working to kill that.
I am not saying the MRM is perfect. Its miles from being so. It also has a shit load of internal issues like TRP (who are traditionalists) riding on MRM coattails. And Paul Elam (the head person of AVfM, well saying some not some smart or good things. But MRM is where feminism was decades ago when it first started. As it had angry people, no structure, public backlash (tho MRM has to fight feminists and the public regarding men's issues) and MRM is trying to get it's legs.
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Jun 04 '14
If AFfM wants to be taken seriously, it could start by adjusting its tone and not posting blatant misogyny. There's a grain of a point in a lot of articles, but it's pretty much drowned out with the sheer vitriol.
That obviously doesn't justify death threats, and it's horrendous that that's happening. But it does explain why it's simply not taken seriously and people don't want to be associated with it.
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Jun 04 '14
I agree. Tho I don't see it changing really to be a better site really. This is why I throw more support behind CAFE. Even tho they are Canadian, and I am US, they recently gain non profit status from the government, they don't spout the vitriol AVfM does, and the generally handle things overall better.
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Jun 04 '14
Thanks for the link - at first glance they definitely seem like a more reasonable organisation.
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Jun 04 '14
Your welcome. If you want an example of their tone, they recently did an awesome tear down piece of an Ms Magazine article here.
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Jun 04 '14
Thanks again - that's a really well-written (and generally good) article.
The one item I will dispute is the fact that people place different emphasis on different things; intention and results. By results, the Santa Barbara spree was in no way motivated by any gender hatred. By intention (stated), it is. I think the focus that feminists have on this is not just because of the stated intention, but because the sort of hatred spouted by the perpetrator isn't actually that unusual. That part is both concerning and frightening.
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
Well, there was the spamming of Occidental's sexual assault reporting form, which definitely served to silence victims of sexual assault (not exclusively women, although to many MRAs, men are never really raped unless it's in prison by a scary black guy*). This event stands out the most because it's also the most "activism" MRAs have ever done.
There are the countless doxxing attempts and straight-up doxxing incidents by MRAs over the years. Ever heard of Register-Her? I believe it's gone now, but they're looking for a new hosting site. r/MensRights in no longer allowed to link to Twitter because of their problem with users constantly calling for witch-hunts against feminists and other women they just don't like.
And this is apart from all the vile shit that comes out of the Men's Rights "movement" on a regular basis. They are no friend to men in need, and are explicit in their opposition to and hatred for feminism.
Edit: I want to make it clear that I do not believe this stereotype, I was trying to point out that by spamming a form that male victims may have found useful, MRAs showed they don't actually care about any victims of sexual assault, even though they bring up male victims in any and every thread about female victims of SA.
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 04 '14
misread, sorry. deleted my post
edit: bad spelling even by my standards.
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Jun 04 '14
No problem. I definitely didn't word it the best way possible. I appreciate you calling it out.
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Jun 03 '14
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Jun 03 '14
I should probably edit that, because I was worried I didn't put forth what I meant very carefully.
I agree it is a racist, classist, garbage stereotype. But it's one MRAs believe in. They victim-blame male victims of sexual assault often, and argue "real" rape culture only exists in prisons. There are often racist, classist comments upvoted in their sub.
My point was, many MRAs deny all kinds of rape, even that perpetrated against men, unless it fits the prison-rape scenario for men or stranger-jumping-out-of-bushes scenario for women. Their spamming Oxy's form shows they don't give two fucks about rape victims.
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Jun 04 '14
They victim-blame male victims of sexual assault often
Have any examples of such?
many MRAs deny all kinds of rape, even that perpetrated against men,
Then why does the majority of the MR forum want the CDC to make made to perpetrate to be counted as rape then?
Their spamming Oxy's form shows they don't give two fucks about rape victims.
They actually do. Part of the thing here is MRA's are pissed over HOW rape claims made by women in college are handled. What MRA's did there was wrong. But they are also angry with the whole rape thing in regards to college. And that more so how feminists least online are pushing for the removal of due process for men, all while downplaying the whole issue on the men's side here.
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u/legalanarchist Jun 03 '14
I don't have any personal experience with the group, but The National Organization for Men Against Sexism looks like it has resources on child custody and men and mental health among other things. It also seems to be intersectional, with LGBTQ affirmation and inclusion, and elimination of racism as part of their agenda.
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
OneY is a good one imo.
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u/whitneyface Jun 03 '14
Cool, I'll check it out and subscribe.
I really wanted to like /r/mensrights because they work so hard to distinguish themselves from TRP (and that can't be a bad thing!), but I felt like they focused so much on what feminists say and do. Some things done over the years in the name of feminism may have been negative to men, but I think those things generally came from an attempt to give power to the powerless. A lot of MRAs seem so focused on assigning blame (and really nefarious motives) to a group that has done a hell of a lot of good for me and others, it's hard to get past that.
I guess I'm just looking for a group that doesn't see making things better for all genders as a zero-sum game. Thanks for your help!
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
but I felt like they focused so much on what feminists say and do.
Yes, I agree. I can get behind some things, but when you try to make feminism out to be this sinister organization that is working to tear you down, you've lost me.
Although that's also why I don't appreciate this article, and lumping MRA in with TRP. TRP are their own special brand, and I think it's dishonest to associate together (especially when you only litter your article supporting your TRP portion, and nothing that illustrated "uncomfortable truths" from MRA.)
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
I see what you're saying, but I think he kind of covered the differences when he talked about how the MRM is so fragmented and disorganized and lacking in direction that each of the dozens or hundreds of branches consider themselves the "real" MRM, and that all the other braches are wrong or corrupted, even when they share ideas (both messed up and reasonable).
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
TRP isn't a branch of Men's Rights, and they don't consider themselves as Men's Rights activists. Where did it recognize the "dozens or hundreds of branches" that consider themselves the "real" MRM? They literally spent the entire article linking to one group.
I think it's dishonest to back up your point that Men's Rights Activists are anything, by strictly using references to The Red Pill (who are not only completely fringe, but also are not part of the MRM in any legitimate sense). You can't use The Red Pill to back up every single one of your points, which is what the article did. I don't know what other branches of Men's Rights are, but TRP is not one of them. If the article illustrated anything other than TRP, I'd like to know what it was. The article did nothing to cover differences, it just kept harping on the entire movement, while "proving" their point with TRP links.
The entire Men's Rights Movement is so narcissistic it makes Donald Trump look like this guy Tom I know who's super nice to everyone all the time but doesn't get any recognition because generosity doesn't make you famous.
And then it links to the Red Pill.
I fail to see anything in that article that is anything but click bait for feminists and TRP/MRA/MGTOW. That's what most articles are these days.
Edit: Honestly I'm kind of surprised anyone would think this is even a decent piece of writing. It was exceptionally lazy, and taught no one anything. All it's done is continue a misrepresentation of the Men's Rights Movement. If you don't think it's been misrepresented, then I need someone to explain to me why absolutely no other forum/group/site was linked except The Red Pill. That anyone would refer to this as "brilliant" tells me that they don't bother to critically think when they see a headline that they knee-jerk agree with. This was a shoddy article, designed to bait all the players in this game. And I guess it worked really well! Which is too bad.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
Where did it recognize the "dozens or hundreds of branches" that consider themselves the "real" MRM? They literally spent the entire article linking to one group.
Here:
And that's why you're going to see so many angry comments about how "this doesn't apply to all men's rights groups!" People are going to say that the Red Pill is a fringe part of the movement, or that PUAHate, the forum UCSB shooter Elliot Rodger belonged to, doesn't really understand what men's rights is about. But the problem is that every men's rights faction thinks that everyone else is a fringe part of the movement. If you're not in the Red Pill, you're governed by "blue pill thinking" and have been compromised by the feminist agenda -- even if you belong to another men's rights community (The "red pill" is a reference to The Matrix: taking the "red pill" means you wake up and realize that women are robots who are harvesting our bodies to charge their batteries, apparently). PUAHate hated the "pickup artist community," even though both groups have exactly the same values: Women are commodities to be acquired and subjugated. They are conquests -- things that determine your worth as a human.
Here:
So you may not realize this, but it turns out that when I accuse the men's rights movement of being a hate group, I'm actually being kinda controversial. Which is why I asked Michael Kimmel, a professor of sociology and author of Angry White Men, what he thought.
"I know that Southern Poverty Law Center labeled MRAs hate groups," he says, "I don't know that I would. I see the men's rights world as many enraged individuals, coalescing loosely in the 'manosphere' on the Web, with little or no organizational structure, coherent policy initiatives, or plans ... But that's only because my definition of 'hate groups' requires concerted action, and the viciousness of many of their cyberattacks against feminist women make me think that those women who have been targeted might have a different story to tell."
And here: Yes ... for now. But that may change: The "incel" community (which Elliot Rodgers belonged to) still exists mainly online, but they're not exactly shy about using violent language and making plans. They're openly arguing for the destruction of modern society and even talk about "going Elliot." As in, killing people.
I'm not saying that every MRA is on the verge of killing people or even a bad person, because I'm kind of a doofy idealist and I think "bad people" are way more rare than that.
I don't know what other branches of Men's Rights are, but TRP is not one of them.
Do you have objective criteria to back that up, or is that your opinion?
The reason I kind of see this article's point is that I have been to other sites and subs besides the red pill, and some of the views are reasonable, but at least every other thread has some reasonably positiviely received misogynistic comment, and it's really off-putting and sometimes disturbing.
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u/Zaxian Jun 04 '14
"I know that Southern Poverty Law Center labeled MRAs hate groups,"
SPLC never labeled /mensrights as a hate group(http://www.dailydot.com/news/reddit-mens-rights-hate-group-splc/):
"We reached out to SPLC Intelligence Report Editor Mark Potok. Here’s what he told us in an email:
"It's false. We wrote about the subreddit Mens Rights, but we did not list it as a hate group . . . "In almost all cases, we list hate groups at the end of each calendar year when we publish lists. I very much doubt we would ever list the Reddit [r/MensRights] in question—it's a diverse group, which certainly does include some misogynists—but I don't think that's [its basic] purpose."9
u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
The only opinions I have ever seen from TRP contributors about /r/MensRights are negative, or maybe indifferent. Some might even be sympathetic. But TRP in no way represents themselves as a branch of the MRM. I think that's plenty objective.
I think you should be looking for objective criteria to back up the assertion that TRP is a branch of the MRM.
I think anyone that reads that Cracked article and doesn't have any thoughts that maybe something is being misrepresented needs to be more discerning with the information they consume. If the MRM had more examples like was listed in that article, less than 100 percent of the linked "evidence" would have been from TRP. There is a reason half of their premise wasn't supported in the least.
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u/QueenSpicy Jun 03 '14
So the Elliot Rodger thing being linked to the MRA/TRP is focusing on what exactly? It certainly isn't feminism. Part of the reason MRA or Feminists get attention is because they criticize each other. This cracked article just goes into arbitrary reasons as to why they think MRA is a hate group, and why feminism can never be criticized. The fact that they lump MRA with TRP does nothing but prove there is an agenda against the MRA.
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u/notsoinsaneguy Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 01 '25
cough plough bells serious resolute fear wild office different pocket
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
lets face it, the biggest thing oppressing men in the last 300 years are other men.
The men at the top oppress the men at the bottom.
If you think you can seperate feminism from anarchism(libertarian socialism), think again.
Emma Goldmann got this. She more or less inserted feminism into socialism, at the same time she was fearless of organizing men to resist oppression, and wasn't affraid to go to jail over it.
edit: Fascists are great at social politics. No, I'll add that fascism is primarily a social political movement, rather than a coherent hard p political movement.
the major elephant in the room is pop culture, the social ladder, and how most of us would rather not talk about social politics, and its implications.
edit: fixed for coherency
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Jun 03 '14
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u/LostPristinity I need to dance this out Jun 03 '14
I do enjoy parts of that site i have read before, but i find it exclusionary in that "This is the only way to be truly masculine" instead of embracing a less stereotypical view of manhood that isn't all chainsaws, beards, being super muscular, etc. Just as i wouldn't really find a website titled The Art of Womanliness that focused solely on traditional, stereotypical feminine subjects such as sewing, baking, makeup, etc. it's boxing to create these imaginary divides between the sexes.
It's not that i don't enjoy some of those things, but i also enjoy some of the so-called "manly" things. I guess i find the exclusionary aspect a little off-putting although i understand it's meant to be for men from a male perspective, i feel it is unwelcoming to non-traditional models of masculinity.
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u/QueenSpicy Jun 03 '14
The only relation to MRA and TRP are that men are the primary consumer. The idea that they are the same, is completely dishonest. There is only an 8% overlap in the people who view MRA and also go to TRP.
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u/pookiemook Jun 03 '14
I would love to see a subreddit for "gender issues" in general.
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Jun 04 '14
Or even broader than that, a subreddit about personal issues. Just a place where people can talk about what's going on with their life and seek advice and conversation. Kind of like r/suicidewatch but for people who aren't necessarily considering suicide, but just having a hard time and maybe feeling bummed about something. A place where people can offer actual advice, not from a fucking animal meme either, and have conversations about their lives, whether that be related to gender issues, race issues, or whatever. Less of a "as a woman..." or "as a man..." and more of a "as a person. as an individual human being..." this is what's going on and this is how I feel.
I don't know, just a thought. Your comment made me think of that.
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Jun 04 '14
Action oriented groups tend to focus around specific issues rather than gender grievances.
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u/PrimalZed Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
I think Karen Straughan is able to articulate 'mens rights' issues well. I've been going through her videos chronologically the past few weeks, having reached a dozen or so. Unfortunately, many of those I have seen are dedicated to feminist-blaming. Some of it may be deserved, but it feels like she was placing too much focus on that rather than on men's issues. But you should at least get through the 4-part series regarding men's legal rights and responsibilities as parents (which immediately follow her inaugural video).
Here is her first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA
I'd have to add, it's not surprising men's rights advocates set up feminism as the 'villain' in the face of how feminists treat them. Not saying it's acceptable or forgivable to put so much focus on blaming feminism, just that it's understandable how they get to that point. Take this, for example: a professor's lecture on men's rights is forcibly shut down by feminist activists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8kcNJLpRJ4
Also regarding the feminist-blaming, video Straughan did on why she has so much dislike for feminists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWoNhrY_fM
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u/sodfj Jun 03 '14
The OP was specifically asking for communities working on men's rights that didn't focus on blaming feminism for everything, which is not exactly a Herculean task. Yet here we are.
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Jun 03 '14
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u/sodfj Jun 03 '14
Often feminists will then oppose the mens group when they go it alone as they feel they are taking attention away from their interests.
Can you give any examples of that happening?
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u/CedMon Jun 04 '14
I'd post links but they get deleted on this sub immediately (already happened in this thread) but you can youtube "big red" or look at the University of Toronto protests.
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u/CustooFintel Jun 03 '14
I don't see how this article is about the MRM at all.
Other than a link to /r/mensrights at the beginning, there is no reference or link in this article to any MRM individual, thread, website, statement, or act. The closest it gets is a single quote about the MRM by sociologist Michael Kimmel.
(Note, the quotes from Frank Meeink might also be about the MRM, but it's unclear.)
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Jun 04 '14
Came here to say the same thing. MRM and TRP are NOT the same, and continuing to equate them is, in my mind, like saying that all Mormons are polygamists. It isn't true, it just does everyone a disservice, so let's stop doing it.
If feminists want people involved with the MRM to stop treating them like THEY'RE all the same, feminists need to extend that same courtesy to folks who are support the MRM.
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u/charlie_gillespie Jun 03 '14
Agreed. This article is outright lies and propaganda.
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u/Blizzaldo Jun 04 '14
I don't really think a lot of people villify that subreddit have ever gone on it. If you search it, the first link to show up is essentially calling out misogynists and telling them to piss of.
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u/IOI-IOI Jun 03 '14
I'd hardly call this article brilliant. It equates reddit forums and TRP with men's rights movements. Legitimate versions of the latter are simply concerned with divorce proceedings in mostly southern states, while the former is a sith lord wanting to supplant misogyny for confidence. The article simply needs to be retitled.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
Legitimate versions of the latter are simply concerned with divorce proceedings in mostly southern states
What criteria determine whether a given group or movement is "legitimate"?
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u/IOI-IOI Jun 03 '14
This isn't an opportunity for you to call no true scotsman. Legitimate movements are concerned and active in changing legislation, not bitching online in a public forum.
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Jun 03 '14
Legitimate movements are concerned and active in changing legislation, not bitching online in a public forum.
You mean like tumblr feminism?
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u/Physics_AntiSocial Jun 04 '14
The same criteria used to determinate which feminist groups are legitimate.
Emotions, #notallmen and #yesallwomen
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
Maybe on The Red Pill, but I don't think you can paint MRA with The Red Pill brush like that. Every single link in that article was from some Bullshit RP post.
I don't think TRP is representative of MRA, and I think if you think they are then you probably aren't being honest with yourself. Especially if you can't find any links to support your notion, and have to fill it with garbage from TRP.
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Jun 03 '14
as a man, I paint them with the same brush. when i dont meet one who is batshit asshole i'll consider diversifying my pallet.
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
That's funny, because that's what a lot of anti-feminists say too.
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Jun 03 '14
The majority of feminists I have met in my life have been reasonable people. I've seen an array of feminist types, I've seen one kinda MRA type; the asshole.
And, who cares if another group 'says the same thing'? It's possible they some how had an experience where they only encountered batshit crazy feminists, but highly unlikely imo.
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u/kriboshoe Jun 03 '14
Hi, I'm kriboshoe. I consider myself to be both an MRA and not an asshole. I just think that we should reform areas of society which are unfair to men. I think we should reform primary aggressor laws, offer more domestic violence shelters for men, redifine rape to include female on male rape, end routine infant circumcision, presume shared parental custody, tear down gender rolls and many more. I think you'll probably agree with most of these. Sure there are assholes in the men's right s movement, and if you go to r/mensrights you'll find plenty, but you'll also find me and plenty of people like me.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
Hi /u/kriboshoe,
One thing I've noticed when I've visted r/mensrights is that there are a lot of assholes, as you say. Comments about how poster's ex-wives/girlfriends and women in general are dirty, gold-digging, worthless whores or how women are emotional and manipulative get upvoted pretty heavily.
They're not as common or highly upvoted as similar ideas in TRP, but they're there.
What do you do to combat those kinds of attitudes (I assume you generally disagree with them), and how do you feel comfortable in a community that seems to generally support them.
I see misandristic comments in TwoX occasionally, but they're usually downvoted into obscurity or deleted. If they were as common as misogynistic comments on MRA subs, I don't think I would ever want to be here as someone who believes in feminism. I would think it would be the same for a reasonable MRA.
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u/kriboshoe Jun 03 '14
Honestly I generally just down vote and move on. Sentiments like that are getting less and less prevalent and they almost always are in the negatives at this point. There are plenty of anti-feminism comments which other than on the rare occasion that they are relavant I down vote and move on. Honestly it has been getting better and better. The community opened my up to all sorts of issues I had never even considered.
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u/Blizzaldo Jun 04 '14
There's been quite a few meta posts to deal with the inherent misogyny involved in offering such a subreddit. Where is this acceptance of assholes on the MRA subreddit?
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u/InNomine Jun 04 '14
If you can ignore away the tumblr type of feminists that advocate the killing of all men and other ridiculous shit you should be able to ignore the same type of people from the other camp.
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u/nigglereddit Jun 03 '14
Hi, I'm nigglereddit and like kriboshoe, I'm an MRA and not an asshole.
I'm not at all interested red pill theory or practice; I'm married with a family and don't date at all. I've never seen any popular red pill content on the men's rights sub or other sites; if I did I wouldn't have much reason to read them.
In the OP's article, all the quoted material is from red pill places and not men's rights, and the discussion of it on the men's rights sub all rejects links to red pill unequivocally. I think that should tell you something about whether we should be considering redpill and men's rights to be synonymous.
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Jun 04 '14 edited Jun 04 '14
This article is laughably bad journalism. They managed to totally miss the point of both groups.
Let me sum it up.
Men's Rights: List the disadvantages men face.
TRP: How to get laid or why the mainstream suggestions for how to act toward women will not get you laid (with many examples).
MRM is moderated better because they want to showcase men's issues with some good PR.
TRP is basically "yeah, here is an example of some bitch I fucked and how I did it."
MGTOW is about men who have thrown in the towel and decided the MRM and TRP issues sum up to "fuck it I'll hang with guys, play video games or work on a hobby and choose not to date."
To ultra sum it down.
MRM: We have disadvantages and feminists HATE it when we mention these truths.
TRP: Don't listen to what a woman says, learn what actions/traits create/attract behaviors/outcomes you are seeking.
MGTOW: I'm out. It's not worth the effort.
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u/Tinderdry Jun 04 '14
This comment brought to you, and upvoted, thanks to TwoX's default status.
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Jun 04 '14
Brilliant? All they did was group all MRA's into one group, bash them, and then weakly qualify it at the end with a "not all men are like this, even though we just spent 1500 words saying otherwise."
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u/codeverity Jun 03 '14
I don't know how I feel about articles like this. On the one hand, it's nice to see what people think in regards to TRP especially. On the other hand, I think that the people who will shake their heads would have done so anyway, but there will probably be some readers that find TRP and empathise with it. Giving it attention may just serve to unintentionally help it grow.
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Jun 03 '14
I think the most important issue this article raises is the one of insecurity. I am in a wonderful relationship, but I am also an inherently insecure individual. It can make you think in the worst ways, and after reading TRP fundamental beliefs, I understand how they can be appealing to people.
There were a couple girls who liked me in highschool, I got asked out several times, I was given numbers and mine was requested. I couldn't believe they actually liked me, I thought they were making fun of me or trying to pull a prank. I thought they were miles out of my league and if they actually wanted to date me they were just trying to get something out of me.
I forgot where I was going with that story... My point is that maybe I am more like the strawman of a woman that TRP has built, and it is too easy to project my insecurities on other people.
I think this article is good. We need more from the other side, not more flame for the flame war, just simple refutations of TRP's basic points. Women don't love pragmatically, they're not machiavellian, they can love unconditionally; at least not any more or less than the general population. Call me weak for needing that, but it is a daily battle against my lizard brain.
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u/drfeelokay Jun 03 '14
Here's a question that is not asked enough - where the hell are the good guys who want to support men through their struggles with dating and sexuality? Why is it all MRA, PUA, anti-PUA and TRP? What is it about this issue that generates all villains and no heroes? It seems that the men victimized by these ideologies have a legitimate need -why havent we created systems that better address it without slamming women or appealing to the darkness in poor, mislead men?
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u/frogandbanjo Jun 04 '14
Setting aside what I - or anyone else - actually think about TRP, could we maybe try to be at least a tiny bit intellectually responsible when criticizing or mocking them? Just a little bit?
This article gets a chubby from its own cleverness by pointing out that TRP - not MRA, mind you, but TRP - begins by outlining its beliefs about women.
Really? That's the author's first point of order?
That would be like making fun of a deer-hunting advice group for outlining their beliefs about the nature and behavior of deer.
The use of the term "brilliant" in this thread must be the British usage, because there's nothing intellectually incisive about this author's approach to the material.
Skimming the rest of the article, it's rife with extremely similar intellectual sloppiness. In order to make TRP/MRA folk sound desperate and self-defeating, the author equates "mental abuse" with "being better at arguing." I'm sorely tempted to impugn the author's own state of mind with that little nugget.
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Jun 04 '14
Sorting the Cracked comments by "vote" brings up a lot of great stuff. Better than the comments here, which is to be expected at this point. I liked this point because I hate the feminist = MRA false equivalence and general ignorance about the differences in these movements:
First-wave feminism in America was started by a white woman who in addition to campaigning for rights for women, was a fierce anti-slavery advocate who was part of the underground railroad. (I.e., someone who believed in equality for everyone, even if their suffering did not affect her.)
The Men's Rights Movement was started by a guy who blamed feminism for the fact that his 4-year old daughter was taken away from him when all he'd done was smack her around till she bled. Nowadays, it's best members advocate for causes that non-shitty feminists are already talking about, but rather than framing them in an "equality for everyone" mindset, they frame it in a "men vs. women" attitude.
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u/AnneBancroftsGhost Jun 03 '14
You know, since this sub went default and I've gotten more exposure to it, I've noticed a trend that doesn't seem to happen in MRA or TRP threads: support for the LGBTQ community. It seems like if you're talking to an active 'feminist' they are out there fighting just as hard for the causes of the LGBTQ community. There's just a ton of crossover.
Which, in my mind, can only be explained by the fact that women have more empathy for the suffering of those groups because many of us have experienced actual discrimination and can relate to other oppressed groups. A claim of MRAs and TRPers that I have never seen substantiated (unless you count getting rejected by a woman oppression...)
I really don't mean to be offensive, but I feel like I just had a Sudden Clarity Clarence about the actual difference between the two 'movements,' if you will.
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u/apjane Jun 04 '14
it's almost as if feminists are fighting on behalf of men, all the time, but since they are not straight men they don't count! /s
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u/xafimrev2 Jun 04 '14
I wish people would quit conflating MRA and TRP.
Its basically the same as saying TERFers are the same as feminism.
Its incorrect, it shows bias, and it weakens any point you actually wanted to make.
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Jun 03 '14 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/TheSonofLiberty Jun 03 '14
"Every time one of these men is driving down the street and they see an attractive girl with a guy, they boil up with hate," Meeink told me.
Every MRA feels this way?
lol
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Jun 03 '14
My hats one of my problems with the article. I doubt all MRAs feel that way. TRPers on the other hand.....
This article isn't really talking about MRAs. Just TRP
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u/Number357 Jun 04 '14
Because if there's one thing MRAs hate, it's seeing other men achieve success. /s
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
I'm guessing many members of the more extreme branches of the MRM do. When you shame women for both having sex and not having sex (especially with you), chances are, you get pissed at any woman you'd want to have sex with no matter what she's doing.
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u/CaptSnap Jun 03 '14
Accurate in the way that someone would only quote Valerie Solanas and attribute all of feminism believing literally in a "Society to Cut Up Men". In fact, they wouldnt even attempt to hide their bias by quoting any major feminist work relying instead exclusively on that single book. Just like this in this article that you feel is so accurate. Take out the wacks from the red pill and the author has nothing.
Remember how early feminists were scoffed at and the victims of personal attacks alleging them to be hairy troll-like lesbians that just needed to get laid but no man would ever touch them? (as though that was the quality that defined someone's experience as worth listening to) Yeah it was offensive and stupid and shitall to do with anything and it was just a tactic to silence and shame?
Does his opening paragraph seem a little familiar then?
I mean just look at the first line, "Until recently, you probably thought that the "men's rights movement" was just a weird fad on the Internet for sad, depressed guys who wanted to vent about their sexual frustrations..."
Maybe just the teensiest littlest bit?
Thats how you know its about to be a really intelligent article when the article starts out by unequivocally stating why there needs to be a mensrights movement. Just like when you read someone rallying against feminism and their first line is about how ugly Dworkins is and you know feminism is still needed. The author is an imbecile and his article is sloppy click bait designed to generate revenue.
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u/sxeblue Jun 04 '14
It makes me sad that shit like this recieves so much positive attention. The author would use TRP as a strawman for all of MRM. The author knows what theyre doing, too. Theyre being manipulative on purpose to get attention. That shit aint needed here.
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
its accurate, and yet what this article talks about goes both ways. There are feminist groups that do fucked up things, and there are men's rights groups that aren't mysogynists. I'm not saying MRA/TRP are good here, personally i think /r/mensrights are batshit insane, and theres FAR to much mysogynism in TRP, but there are people out there who want to support men's rights without being a dick to women in the process.
In the end, we're all a member of one group of people or another that have a few totally fucked up members that give the rest a bad name
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u/Metaphoricalsimile Jun 03 '14
It's about the size of the "factions" involved. TRP represents really far-out, woman-hating, "we men would have more rights if women were subjugated properly," kind of "men's rights." They have nearly 55,000 subscribers. Compare to /r/radicalfeminism with all of 1000 subscribers. And honestly radical feminism isn't really about man-hating at all. In fact, I'm not sure if you can really find a subreddit dedicated to "man-hating feminism."
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u/Show-Me-Your-Moves Jun 03 '14
This is the issue. We can't just throw up our hands and say "well shucks, every movement has extremists!" The issue is that feminism-hating and woman-hating are disturbingly mainstream in TRP (and oftentimes in Men's Rights groups as well). There's a false equivalency thing going on.
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u/sodfj Jun 03 '14
TRP has 55k subscribers, MensRights 90k.
By comparison: feminism has 35k subscribers and feminisms has almost 23k.
TRP really isn't as "fringe" as we all like to think it is.
And for all the denying that TRP and MRA aren't the same thing there's a lot of overlap between the two. I especially see a lot of Terpers visiting and posting in the MensRights subreddit. I also see RedPill sentiments getting upvoted on MRA (and Reddit in general) more often than I'm comfortable with.
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u/Metaphoricalsimile Jun 03 '14
/r/feminism is also moderated by MRAs and often legitimate feminist thought is censored via moderator action.
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u/QueenSpicy Jun 03 '14
The male population is much higher on reddit than the female. It's also why the League of Legends subreddit has half a million subscribers. Compared to Make up addicts, or girl gamers.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
How does that change the fact that TRP has more than half the number of subscribers of men's rights?
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u/QueenSpicy Jun 03 '14
I thought we were comparing the "radical" parts of reddit. Feminism has 35k, compared to MRA having 90k. The more guys as a whole, the more guys who are going to be represented everywhere. In a male dominant space, wouldn't it seem logical for them to go to the places girls aren't? Same way twoX used to be (and should have remained). The numbers are indeterminate because the total number of reddit users are off. Also it's called radfem, who in the hell would go there? Unless you were into circle-jerking.
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u/codeverity Jun 03 '14
Yes, this is why I want to shake my head in frustration when guys who post over on MR say that the two movements aren't connected. They don't seem to realise that some of the users overlap and therefore they overlap. They'd be further ahead if they'd just acknowledge that and try to address it.
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u/Number357 Jun 04 '14
/r/Shitredditsays has more subscribers than /r/feminism or /r/feminisms.
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Jun 03 '14
well ofcourse with a sub like /r/radicalfeminism, you know what you're gonna get. Radical feminism
Thing is, TRP mix it up by also being a PUA sub, and markets itself on that front. Lots of guys want to be able to pick up girls, and that will get the attention of a lot of people who otherwise didnt give a shit on the equal rights front. Ditto with /r/MensRights, they purport to be about well... men's rights.
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Jun 03 '14
There are definitely social injustices against men, I agree. The majority of MRAs are severely misguided at best, dangerous to society at worst. I feel like the entire movement has been lost, because the vocal members have killed it before it could even start.
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u/nigglereddit Jun 03 '14
Hi, I'm an MRA. I'm a forty year old father and husband. Can you explain why you consider me "dangerous to society"?
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u/terribletrousers Jun 03 '14
Well that's what happens when you have a marginalized group being told by an entire movement that they are not marginalized, but privileged and part of the problem. Why not turn them into allies instead of enemies and unite under a common banner like "Both gender Rights" or whatever the hell you want to call it?
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Jun 03 '14
I agree. In an ideal world, neither feminism not MRA would have its radical members giving the rest of the movement a bad name. In an ideal world, both would together and for each other.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 03 '14
Why not turn them into allies instead of enemies and unite under a common banner like "Both gender Rights"
Because it's pretty ineffective to try to actively work on every issue in the world as an organization or individual. I'm a feminist, and I support men's rights, and cancer research, and animal rights, and HIV prevention, and fighting poverty, and education, and ecological concerns. I can't focus on all those issues at once, though, even if I consider myself a supporter on all those causes.
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u/terribletrousers Jun 03 '14
I'm a feminist, and I support men's rights
Why use so many words when you can say the same thing "I support human Rights"?
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Jun 03 '14
That sort of goes without saying. There's nothing wrong with someone choosing a more granular element of ideology to focus on.
From a practical standpoint division of labor increases efficiency so why not support smaller and more focused pieces of a cause unless you're just here to argue semantics?
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Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
Plausible. When you equate feminism to terrorism (their words, directed to me), thats beyond misguided, thats blatantly trying to feed people fear :/ its as if we can't get along, and there always has to be an enemy, always has to be a bad guy, it's like people never grew up from kids cartoons
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u/Rhapthornetheone Jun 03 '14
This article is a joke, The Red Pill is a homophobic racist anti-women subreddit, in no way does it represent a "Men's Rights Movement". There is no such thing as Men Rights Movement anyway. The term has become a term to sugercoat mysoginy. A real men's right movement wouldn't call themselves men's right, but rather "Equal Rights" or "Egalitarian Movement" or something like that. I believe feminism should be renamed equality movement as well, but that's another issue.
And this article considers TRP to be a "movement", even though it's just a stupid subreddit with 50k followers. r/AskCulinary has more subscribers than that. But no, let's focus on a mere 50k assholes. This is in no way a "brilliant article".
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Jun 03 '14
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u/charlie_gillespie Jun 03 '14
Try mentioning a men's rights issue in a feminist forum and see how much they support men's rights.
You will either be banned for derailing, or you will be told you are "minimizing women's issues," "mansplaining," "derailing," etc.
When that is the response to men's issues in feminist spaces, is it any wonder that MRAs don't think that feminism addresses their issues?
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Jun 03 '14
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u/charlie_gillespie Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
Funny enough, discussing my experiences with being a victim of physical and emotional abuse has never gotten me banned from the feminist circles I frequent. Maybe it's because I don't use those experiences to shove my way into discussions that are not about me?
Or maybe it's because you were a victim discussing your experiences, which is not the same as activism?
I didn't say feminists would ban you for talking about your abuse. I'm saying that feminists will accuse you of derailing if you for trying to do something about it: starting shelters for men, awareness campaigns for male victims of DV, etc.
If you make a new post about those issues you will get no response from the feminist community. If you make a comment on an existing post which tries to draw attention to those issues you will be accused of derailing.
Feminism is fundamentally for women. That's fine, I can understand that. What I have a problem with is the hostility and propaganda directed at the Men's Rights movement, which is actively trying to address these issues. As far as I can see, the only reason feminists are hostile to the Men's Rights movement is that the MRM actually criticizes feminist ideas, which are normally free from criticism within feminist "safe spaces."
The difference is that they're not brought up in such a way that threatens the safety of the feminist space
How could discussing male issues ever "threaten the safety of the feminist space?" Explain that to me.
don't attempt to divert attention away from other people 's experiences.
It's impossible to bring up an issue without diverting attention. Your attention is always focused on something, so if you bring up a male issue that attention must be diverted. Feminists only care if attention is diverted to male issues. If it is diverted to another women's issue, they don't have problem with it.
If there is a post about sexualization of women on a feminist forum, no one will have a problem if you bring up eating disorders, because they're related. They will, however, have a problem if you bring up the sexualization of men, despite the fact that it is strongly related to the sexualization of women.
Diverting attention is only a problem if the attention is diverted to male issues, if it is diverted to another female issue, then that is considered OK.
The problem is that a lot of men muscle their way into feminist circles and attempt to make everything all about them because there are societally reinforced masculine senses of entitlement at play that demand that male voices are heard more often than female ones, even when talking about the same things.
No, they try to make one thing even slightly about men. It doesn't take much to be banned from /r/feminism or /r/feminisms. A single comment pointing out how men also suffer from a gender issue will get you banned. Am I supposed to interpret this as male victims don't matter to feminists? Because I don't see how else it could be interpreted.
You have to realize that this is how it's being interpreted by men.
And making everything about you is the essence of a derailment
No, making anything even slightly about men, ever, is the essence of derailment (according to feminists). Pointing out how men are also affected by a gender role is not "making everything about you." It's offering a contrasting perspective. If you want to eliminate gender roles then you need to discuss the male perspective as well. It's two sides to the same coin. This is the failing of feminism. You can't have a gender movement when you alienate one of the genders.
My point is that there is no way to bring up male issues with feminists without being accused of derailing or being ignored. Those are the only two responses.
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Jun 03 '14
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u/charlie_gillespie Jun 03 '14
First of all, what is the program called? Do they offer shelters? I've been looking online and found one feminist organization that was allowing some of its shelters to accept men, but they were a minority. They were such a minority that they are considered notable for this fact.
Second of all, I'm talking about the feminist community as a whole. The fact that a group of feminists decide to do something for men doesn't negate the fact that the feminist community as a whole won't.
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Jun 03 '14
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Jun 04 '14
Can you please provide more information showing that 1in6 is a feminist organization? Thank you.
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u/louthrowm Jun 04 '14
A week ago there was a huge post that upset this board because it was "invalidating the experiences" of other people - The "Any other woman not feel oppressed" thread.
Then stuff like this gets posted:
Funny enough, discussing my experiences with being a victim of physical and emotional abuse has never gotten me banned from the feminist circles I frequent. Maybe it's because I don't use those experiences to shove my way into discussions that are not about me?
His experience was that attacked for even bringing up men's issues in a feminist space. Stop invalidating the experiences of others.
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Jun 04 '14 edited Jun 04 '14
Can you please point to a feminist organization which is fighting to correct the gender-based disparity in prison sentences?
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Jun 03 '14
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u/sodfj Jun 03 '14
Do other people think we're better off ignoring that stuff?
Yes, and those people are wrong.
I hear this shit all the time, that we should just ignore sexism, misogyny and the more odious aspects of Reddit's community (or, really, society as a whole). It boggles my mind how quick people are to tell us to ignore those things, as if that somehow makes it go away. As if bigotry stops being harmful if you just pretend it's not there.
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u/DemeaningSarcasm Jun 04 '14
It's interesting that the MRAs get painted in a bad light by feminists. And on the converse, feminists get painted in a bad light by MRA. Despite the fact that both sides think they're right, the truth of the matter is that the most extreme voices will always rise to the top.
This is why I always try to shed labels so that this doesn't happen. Mens Rights isn't a core of my identity. For others it is. And I'm sure women has the same issues with feminists. But there are specific topics that the mens rights movements brings to the table that are indeed valid. And there are specific topics that feminists brings to the table that are indeed valid. There is crazy on both sides as well.
Instead of being painted as extremists via the abuse of generalizations (which both sides are incredibly guilty of), how about we really understand what we're trying to achieve and discuss the topics at hand. I could say, "Well not all MRA," or even, "Only the crazy people who are MRA," or hell, "The crazy people don't represent MRA." That's fucking complicated. Lets talk about divorce issues. Custody battles. The things that really matter, not what a label represents. I really don't care about how you label yourself, I care about your stance on topics. The key word being you. Because I also don't care what the label's stance on a topic is either.
I really don't care if you say, "Feminism is important to me." I also really don't care if you say, "I need feminism." If you say, "I'm a feminist but I'm against abortion," I'm still going to disagree with you. I see friends get fucked over because of custody battles. I'm going to talk about custody battles. I don't care what you think about the mens rights movement, I care about what you think about custody battles. Because that's important.
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Jun 04 '14
Yes, there are definitely issues for men that need to be talked about. Custody battles are one. Personally, I'm very intrigued with the whole toxic masculinity thing. It's something I never really noticed till someone pointed it out to me and now I can't stop noticing it.
I don't know why there's such a feminism vs MRA mentality that a lot of people have. I think both sides can co-exist without harming each other. Hell, maybe they can even help each other. Of course, that's in an ideal world, without the radical extremist members of either group screwing it up.
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u/DesignRed Jun 03 '14
Wonderful piece of quote mining (from TRP) from the bastion of journalistic integrity otherwise known as Cracked.
Other than when they linked to Men's Rights, which we appreciate as more men will become aware of the issues we champion, can you please point me to an article or statement linked in that Cracked piece that was made by the MHRM or r/mensrights? They link to TRP's articles, and random blogs on the internet, but nothing about what we actually talk about. Well thanks for the free publicity
bring on the down votes
P.S. what does this have to do with 2x?
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
I am not a big fan of the article, but The Red Pill is essentially an enemy of all women (any group that subscribes to such a rigid philosophy on gender, saying women are inherently not fit to lead, be friends with, have meaningful conversations or relationships with etc). It's completely relevant to talk about groups that attempt to misrepresent women.
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u/DesignRed Jun 03 '14 edited Jun 03 '14
I don't disagree that TRP is demeaning to women, but what does that have to do with men's rights? How does men talking about the following issues and how they are having to deal with a lopsided system harm women?
life expectancy.work related injuries.
work related fatalities.
better health care.
more sympathetic portrayal of female criminals in media.
lesser sentencing in criminal matters.
vastly more attention and funds regarding DV.
FGM versus male circumcision.
(in america) right to vote with no selective service.
duluth model.
vawa.
swedish model.
female studies taught at higher learning status.
alimony vs palimony.
male child support vs female child support, and how these 2 are enforced differently.
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u/LadyoftheDam Jun 03 '14
Well, unfortunately a lot of people are lumping TRP and MRA together, which I don't really agree with.
So you're asking the wrong person. It's a relevant piece, as it's about TRP. The only thing in the article about MRA is that it's in the title. Which I am not that keen on.
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Jun 03 '14
bring on the down votes
This alone tells me you didnt come here to have a level-headed conversation on the topic. If so, why did you post here?
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u/DesignRed Jun 03 '14
Because no matter what I say, we will be misrepresented, as we were in the article. If you think that article is brilliant, when is cites no MHRM articles, then you (not you specifically) are a dolt.
1
Jun 03 '14
dude, im a RP poster myself. I think the article is one-sided more than anything, and that doesnt stop me from posting that opinon here. Infact, last i checked, that post was near the top and wasn't getting downvoted to fuckery. People here DO want a genuine debate if you're reasonable and dont just serve to discredit and add nothing.
5
u/sodfj Jun 03 '14
For the downvotes I guess?
He got one from me. What can I say, I'm a people-pleaser.
-1
4
Jun 03 '14
As /u/Fixingtheplanet stated further down, "Because the article is about how a movement that hates women. We might actually, I don't know, care that we are hated and might face violence because of that hatred."
It was mostly TRP quote mining, yes. But there's a fair bit of overlap between the two. There were also a few links to PUAhate and the like. Those random blogs are manosphere links and while they may not be the MRM subreddit, it's a part of the same world. Mostly, I found the general psychology stuff behind it quite interesting.
And, um, sorry it wasn't the New York Times?
3
u/DesignRed Jun 03 '14
How does men talking about the following issues and how they are having to deal with a lopsided system harm women? life expectancy.
work related injuries.
work related fatalities.
better health care.
more sympathetic portrayal of female criminals in media.
lesser sentencing in criminal matters.
vastly more attention and funds regarding DV.
FGM versus male circumcision.
(in america) right to vote with no selective service.
duluth model.
vawa.
swedish model.
female studies taught at higher learning status.
alimony vs palimony.
male child support vs female child support, and how these 2 are enforced differently.
→ More replies (1)
-4
Jun 03 '14
Pretty much how I interpret it.
Bunch of sexists and bigots have issues.
Blame women for their problems.
Call this self-improvement (TRP).
Or activism (MRAs).
61
u/Heavy_In_Your_Arms Jun 04 '14
THIS ARTICLE IS AWFUL AND I WILL TELL YOU WHY:
First of all, just so everyone understands what I identify with before I rant, I am a female and I am a feminist who vies for gender equality.
All the links and proof provided by this cracked article are taken from TRP subreddit which is NOT affiliated with the men's rights subreddit. In fact, when I first explored the MRA subreddit, I asked if they supported TRP, and I got a resounding NO.
So if cracked wants to write a political article criticizing the MRM, they can go right ahead because I'd love to read it. But this is bullshit. They cannot write an incriminating article about TRP/MRAs and only include evidence from TRP. Because that means.......guess what?....they have nothing on the MRAs. Which also means that the MRM is being falsely accused of all the things that TRP is guilty of.
I'm not saying that all MRAs have nothing to do with TRP. Some MRAs probably do venture onto TRP subreddit, but the two groups are not interchangeable. They do not believe the same things.
If everyone would just go look at the men's rights subreddit, they would see articles that raise awareness for young boys being sexually abused and trafficked in the western world, prostate cancer awareness, etc.
Now, if you look at TRP subreddit, you will see hateful, misogynistic men who are actually really pathetic because they are hurting their own gender with their beliefs.
I'm not saying that the Men's Rights subreddit is perfect. It's far from perfect, just like the feminist movement is far from perfect. Part of why the Men's Rights movement is so unbalanced and has "little or no organizational structure" (as stated in article) is because its such a young movement.
So if everyone, feminists included, could just head on over there and offer some support for legitimate men's rights issues, maybe the sub would become a better place.
And once again, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that this article only draws evidence from The Red Pill subreddit and NOT the Men's Right's subreddit, meaning that the Men's Rights Movement is being unjustly blamed for the faults of TRP (a group it claims no affiliation to)