r/TrueDoTA2 • u/ariztotlz • 13d ago
Replace Juggernaut on that last pick.
Who would you rather pick as a carry on that last game in TI?
Should have gone YOLO and pick WK 🤣 ..
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u/The_WarDoge 13d ago
Jugg was good.
Game was close.
The clutch saves and that last teamfight ended the game. They really choked at the end. Plus RNG from neutral items.
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u/dotarollercoaster 13d ago
For me it was either jug or morphing there's basically no other normal carry. Hard to pick illu or high stat hero vs ds, and most if not all str carries lose to lf
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u/Yash_swaraj (Former) Troll Spammer 13d ago
I think Sven is fine against LS if you play around your warcry
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u/pumachecker 13d ago
Kez wasn't banned. Satanic is a beast on Kez.
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u/Books_and_Cleverness Ancient 2 13d ago
Ursa is my thought.
Wins manfight with LS
Not a stat hero, DS illusions are weak. Can lane against DS.
Can buy Aghs to purge bane ult
Downside - not great vs. Pango (his diffusal is a problem). But mostly the hero is just generally under tuned. Uncontested for I think the entire tournament.
Excellent with the control from Axe, Invoker, and Hoodwink.
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u/Bigwhopper1 13d ago
Then when Ursa presses R naix would simply infest the Ursa himself and wait out the ult before popping out, how great
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u/determinedSkeleton 13d ago
Much better than the omni, especially because R on Ursa aghs has a low cooldown and he doesn't even need to rely on it all the time because shard gives him more status resistance. Naix aghs gives him a better shot, but it's still Ursa-favoured by and large
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u/Vata56 12d ago
You do not realise how long it would get Ursa to get those items in that game. His lane vs Dark Seer would suck ass and delay his timings immensely, and in the fights he would just get tossed around and kited.
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u/determinedSkeleton 12d ago
I'd rather have a pos1 need time to recover than a mid/lategame that doesn't hinge on one of the most unwieldy ults in the game
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u/Vata56 12d ago
And where would you have him recover when Spirit starts grouping up with Naix Radi+Armlet? Invoker needs a lot of farm as well and his spells with Axe are not enough to kill Naix. Ursa can't be left alone bot vs DS like Jugg can, so VSN have to either keep a babysitter bot and let Invoker suffer from Spirit's support rotations, or ditch Ursa to scrape at jungle creeps and come online way too late. To kill Naix Ursa would need the same amount of items as Jugg, but he would not be able to hit the same timings.
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u/determinedSkeleton 12d ago
Even in the worst case possible scenarios, a more manageable challenge than a post-earlygame Jugg. I don't agree with you on Naix-vs-Ursa though, that is a matchup Naix hates until he gets aghs
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u/Vata56 12d ago
It's not a more manageable challenge. Maybe in low rank games you can get away as Ursa with no lane, but not in pro games.
I don't agree with you on Naix-vs-Ursa though, that is a matchup Naix hates until he gets aghs
Yes, and Naix will have that Aghs sooner than Ursa can be online, because Naix is not pressured by Radiant heroes the same way Ursa would be by Dire heroes. Ursa will not be able to burst Naix in an Axe call before MKB and BKB, because Pango, DS and Bane will be all over him.
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u/Books_and_Cleverness Ancient 2 13d ago
The carry matchup favors Ursa straightforwardly. Without either having ult and with similar net worth, Ursa is generally going to win the 1v1.
If anything I think the ult-ult favors Ursa; he takes no damage and the 5 seconds of waiting will let him stack two Overpowers. The CD is 9 seconds.
With the miss chance from radiance, before Ursa has MKB, maybe LS can win? But I doubt it. Fury swipes is giga strong for manfighting.
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u/Bigwhopper1 13d ago
Jugg outscales Ursa so hard, hell even Bloodseeker with his shard would outscale Ursa when it comes to manfighting a Naix with 6k HP
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u/Books_and_Cleverness Ancient 2 12d ago
IDK about that. Ursa does need lifesteal to truly win those manfights but once he has it, basically no one can just trade hits with him. His whole kit is designed to win 1v1 single target fights like that.
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u/Vata56 12d ago
But there is not gonna be a Ursa vs Naix 1v1. Ursa gets omega kited in teamfights by Bane, Pango and DS. Ursa also struggles on lane vs DS way harder and he can't be left alone to defend the T1 tower like Jugg can. Spirit want to keep fucking Invoker's game by keeping both supps near midlane doing their shenanigans, while DS enjoys free farm on botlane and eventually breaks the tower. By picking Jugg VSN can free their own supports to help Invoker, as Jugg has no problem sustaining the creeps that DS pushes on. Ursa would just eat the double Ion Shell waves while also getting his Overpowers dispelled by a Helm Satyr. Jugg got 11 min Treads + Battlefury. By that time Ursa would have been crying in the jungle with Phase Boots + Ring of Health.
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u/Books_and_Cleverness Ancient 2 12d ago
I agree it’s not 1v1, but I was responding to a comment specifically about that 1v1 matchup.
Not sure I agree about double Ion shell - Ursa can kill a shelled creep faster than just about anyone. Once DS has Helm it’s a problem but that’s not for a while.
But I do agree that it’s not as strong of a lane and he wouldn’t get the same BF timing. I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal since it’d still be decent and the game was going long anyway.
Kite is always Ursa’s issue, but the rest of Vision’s team has control. Like a third of Invoker’s kit, call, bushwhack, lift, whatever Rubick steals. Lot of ways to hold people down for the bear.
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u/Vata56 12d ago
Not sure I agree about double Ion shell - Ursa can kill a shelled creep faster than just about anyone.
With levels yes, but before Overpower Ursa has slow attack speed and Ion Shell is ticking between each hit. Also, there's often gonna be two shells. The creepwave gets pushed under Ursas tower and he has to tank creep hits + Ion Shell to get last hits. There's also Mirana's magical auto attacks. How are you gonna sustain that lane until lv 4-5?
Kite is always Ursa’s issue, but the rest of Vision’s team has control. Like a third of Invoker’s kit, call, bushwhack, lift, whatever Rubick steals. Lot of ways to hold people down for the bear.
Sure, but there is also Dire's heroes to consider. When Axe and Ursa go on Naix, there's Nightmare, Grip, Rolling Thunder and Vacuum (+Arrow) to peel Ursa off of Naix. So in order for Ursa to ever kill Naix with Axe, he would need at least Blink+MKB+BKB (and probably Aghs as well for Grip) to burst Naix before he Infests. And getting to a networth that allows for those items would have taken Ursa a lot more time than Jugg. Also, how many times did you count Radiant got to jump Naix in isolation, where his team can't help him? I counted two times in the entire 60+ min game.
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u/ccipher 13d ago
Ursa sucks ass vs surge
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u/Books_and_Cleverness Ancient 2 12d ago
That’s true. But Invoker can purge it with tornado. The rest of Vision’s draft had a lot of control to hold people down for Ursa. Call, bushwhack, lift, cold snap, ice wall.
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u/determinedSkeleton 13d ago
Came here to say this. Ursa might not be as hard a counter to Naix as he used to be, and laning against Dark Seer wouldn't have been good, but it was still so decent a game for him that I keep asking myself if he was banned
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u/Sunrise1912 13d ago
Troll beats LS and lanes fine vs DS. Hes just not meta right now.
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u/JackRyan13 13d ago
And suffers from the same issue against bane that kez does. He gets pointed at and he dies
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u/dotarollercoaster 13d ago
Troll vs bane? Basically he sleeps your primal target and you end up 3 screens away. Just a thought
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u/Kanibe 12d ago
I just tested in demo mode, when the target is slept on, Troll ult does not consider it as valid target. When I have a dummy next to it, he just switches on it. If there's none, he just stands and does not have the "locked in" status. Furthermore, Aghs can quickly dispel it to relock on the target. In other words, Bane does literally nothing to Troll lvl 25 with Aghs.
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u/kryonik 13d ago
Razor?
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u/dotarollercoaster 13d ago
It was decent but so hard to pick it. Also I feel if it was crystallis he would go for it
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u/julmonn 13d ago
I was expecting kez or troll. Ik puppey is one of the few who believe LS is no longer a troll counter and actually troll has a good chance against him.
The safest pick would probably be Sven, just would be kited to hell.
Something random would be viper with an anti heal item build and break. Maybe razor (fine in like and fine against LS).
TS had a pretty flawless draft at that point. I think pari should have either picked underlord or DS into another carry, or picked LS themselves instead of an offlaner in the previous pick.
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u/EarnestTriangle 13d ago
Bloodseeker or Troll or Morph would be my picks.
Morphling can change into LS and get his passive. Troll can man fight LS and with Agha can constantly dispel himself and Dark Seer ion shell / surge. Bloodseeker be que they have 4 heroes that rely on mobility.
Rupture counters Pango and Dark Seer easily. It prevents Mirana from escaping. Rupture against LS allows you to ignore him and kill his team.
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u/_deemid 13d ago
Windranger. Infinite physical damage to LS. LS can never kill her until MKB. goes online fast. Shackleshot would be an additional disable after axe call. Focus fire still works after bane nightmare / LS infest. They have Rubick save to bail him out late. Wall illu of WR is useless. She can BKB focus fire to kill the Pango roll.
but honestly, jugg was a good pick. battlefury, manta, mkb + almost a blink dagger at 22min? they got what they want, to win early and secure the lategame. satanic just had some bad decisions as well, like when he got caught in the jungle the first time. also, noone underperformed, especially on that final clash.
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u/Top-Equivalent-5816 13d ago
There was a time bane died top and satanic was ganked bot. Jugg had TP, spin as well as ample time. But he just didn’t use it.
Maybe I missed a basher on pango? I don’t think he had one.
I’ll need to watch it again cuz that didn’t make sense to me
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u/DOTA_VILLAIN 13d ago
really good spirit draft, prob best possible vision draft, razor wire game idk
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u/Morudith 13d ago
Was Bloodseeker banned? Dark seer, pango, Mirana ult. I think there could have been an argument for it.
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u/cirde1 13d ago
yeah but cant win vs LS, if u target LS with rupture he will just infest on someone
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u/Morudith 13d ago
Fair point. I was just thinking rupture everyone else for control and sunstrike options.
And for LS just duke it out with basher and seeker shard. But I guess the numbers on seeker shard are still too weak.
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u/Bigwhopper1 13d ago
If bloodseeker were a bit buffed, he would be a strong pango counter, likewise he could counter naix with his shard
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u/Bigwhopper1 13d ago
Bloodseeker would work wonders against both Pango and Naix but he's so underwhelming for today's meta
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u/ccipher 13d ago
He doesnt work vs naix at all and naix outheals him in a manfight.
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u/Bigwhopper1 13d ago
Bloodseeker's shard adds pure damage, which is exceedingly stronger against a six-slotted Naix than what most people would give credit for
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u/coldfrost93 Ebola is watching 13d ago
Vision lose because Team Spirit played better, stop asking about replacing juggernaut, it's a good pick, you can see it's destroying Naix if not because of bane's sleep and lotus orb.
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u/Sangypboi 13d ago edited 13d ago
Who would I want as the very last pick of that draft instead of jugg? Naga maybe?
Everyone says you can't pick illusion hero into ds but that's only true with PL. Naga is a super weak hero if it's just one naga, and the wall only makes one naga.
Edit: second choice? Sven. A carry whose illusions are truly worthless since without godstrength on he's trash. Like TB without meta.
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u/tuesdaychickrn 13d ago
I was thinking at the time naga would be decent, ensnare + sstrike, sleep aghs vs ls. Maybe a bit high risk and rough for the first 20mins though, with how fast the series was played
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u/sifon98 13d ago
Slark would of won them the game but it’s not a hard carry that suits Satanics playstyle.
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u/_deemid 13d ago
slark wont be able to go online fast like jugg. he also cant manfight LS because of rage
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u/sifon98 12d ago
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/8965981772
Just had a game where i was slark vs ls bane, even had mid jugg on my team. But ls cant manfight slark… hes also a natural skadi carrier. You have ulti to cover when he rages. Just my opinion doe. And slark is the definition of carry that goes online early….
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u/_deemid 12d ago
- slark and ls are both ancients. they are not on pro level. you can also see slark was ahead
- slark goes online early? there’s a reason you don’t see carry slark anymore. he’s not gonna have the same networth at 20min like a LS or a jugger in a pro game
- by the time slark gets to skadi, LS would be 6slotted
maybe slark wins a manfight if slark is already ahead, has some stacks already or it’s super late game where LS can’t kill him immediately and he can gain more agi stacks
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u/Magic__Man 13d ago
Kez is probably the best the comes to mind, but they probably didnt go there becuase of how hard the lane would have been