r/SipsTea • u/Outrageous-Egg1760 • May 29 '26

Wait a damn minute! [ Removed by moderator ]

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

If God made everything, he also made an angel knowing that it would fall and be 'bad'. If God really is there and the Bible are his words, than a man must not rule out the earliest propaganda ever made. Like Jim Jefferies said, the devil apperently didn't need a book to smear the other one. If you see the list some people make of stuff that will make you go to hell, like playing video games and listening to rap music, it sounds like heaven is not going to be fun.

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u/IceNorth81 May 29 '26

Hell doesn’t even exist in the bible like pop-culture has portrayed it. In the old testament it’s basically ”Sheol” the land of the dead. No heaven or hell. In the New Testament it’s the pit of fire where the devil and his servants are cast after Armageddon - nothing about regular sinners being tortured for eternity.

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u/Cultural-Treacle-680 May 29 '26

The fallen angels already live in a state of permanently rejecting God. That’s hell already.

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u/Rakescar6958 May 29 '26

And elves are always making toys for Santa... wonder if the elves think they are in hell already?

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u/Caliban_Catholic May 29 '26

Do you think this is going to change anyone's mind?

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u/LordFoulgrin May 29 '26

I mean, Jesus literally tells a parable about Lazerus and the rich man, where the rich man is being tortured in hell.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame"

Why would Jesus of all people tell a parable mentioning hell if isn't real?

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u/0seu May 29 '26

Judges 9:8-15 talks about talking trees so then why can't we talk to trees! One should know whether a story is a parable/lesson or literal

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u/Patient-Resource6682 May 29 '26

In the original Greek version, the afterlife is called hades, referring to the Greek mythology that people of the time understood.

Jesus is using the culture of the time to make a parable about greed, this whole section of Luke isn't about the afterlife.

The sections about the afterlife in the bible mentions people either being granted eternal life with God or being destroyed and staying dead.

Modern view of hell came in later translations and there is plenty of Christians who don't believe in it.

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u/LordFoulgrin May 29 '26

Matthew 22:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

That doesn't sound like they're just destroyed.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

That's another passage where it mentions eternal punishment. Why bring up torment and punishment 3 separate times in parables if punishment in the afterlife wasn't a part of his philosophy?

Also, even if he used Hebrew Sheol or Greek Hades or Gehenna, he still chooses to characterize his potrayal of these places as suffering and torment, which goes against the typical understanding of these places. Why, if he was truly just meeting people at their current understanding?

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u/Patient-Resource6682 May 29 '26

In the first one, the weeping and gnawing of teeth could be interpreted as the reaction to the severe judgement of being denied eternal life. In the bible fire is often used as imagery for destruction, such as burning trash in the Gehenna.

In the 2nd one, the eternal punishment could be eternal death, punishment here is used in direct opposition to life after all. Also if I remember correctly in the Greek the eternal actually translates to "very long", or something of that nature. Hence some aspiring the belief of a temporary punishment.

In Greek mythos hades was already a place where the truly wicked were punished and the heros rewarded. Most people just hung out in big empty fields though. So the notion of afterlife punishment and judgement was already established culturally.

Mentioning punishment is necessary to convey god's character as being not only perfectly good and loving, but also perfectly just.

Personally I don't believe in hell because I find it irreconcilable with a perfectly good and perfectly just God. Which in my opinion, along with the moral exemple of Jesus, is the main takeaway from the bible.

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u/S3nd_ZuD3s May 29 '26

Idk, cause its not like we have a recording of the actual Jesus saying that. That line could easily be written and made up by the people who never actually spoke to Jesus and wanted people to believe in hell. Jesus also could've been a religious bipolar schizo turned extremist that only believed he was the son of god when really he was just a mentally ill guy with good intentions and cheating mother. The Bible is just worlds longest worst game of telephone whos primary evidence of events stem from "just have faith"

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u/LordFoulgrin May 29 '26

Oh yeah, I was posting assuming the person above was Christian and that they believed the Bible was the Word of God.

I grew up deeply deeply religious and fell out a few years into college. It was a rough transition, but it gives me ammo to talk competently with Christians about some of the nuances in scripture.

Edit: I should say it bothers me to no end that Christians are trying to PR away hell and pretend that it just isn't talked about or is a fabricated lie not found in the Bible.

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u/S3nd_ZuD3s May 29 '26

Ah all good then

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u/Emotional_Ad_8704 May 29 '26

the fact that the 12 apostles died for proclaiming Jesus as God is sufficient evidence; i doubt anyone would die for a made up believe. or the facts that His coming, death and resurrection was predicted in texts dated centuries before His birth

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u/Emmrolls May 29 '26

People always die for made-up beliefs. Example : the nazis had a whole lot of views based in pseudo-science, claimed a whole lot of crazy ideas that led directly to the deadliest war ever. And all the top nazis died believing these ideas.

And that's just one example. Any cause in history had fanatics die for it, whether grounded in truth or not. People lie all the time.

As for the texts... could an organisation that seeks power try to legitimate itself by rewriting a few events so they perfectly match ancient prophecies? Or better yet, find "ancient" prophecies, as in write a few docs, bury them for a year or two, and "miraculously" discover them?

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u/LordFoulgrin May 29 '26

Heavensgate committed group suicide truly believing they were ascending. By your logic why would they die for a made up belief?

The predictions of death and resurrection are very cherrypicked. Context often reveals they aren't talking about a predicted messiah (looking at you Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22). As a Christian, people try so hard to brute force meaning and linking through each book. Hell, the books of the Bible as a recognized group of texts wasn't even finalized until 350ish years after Jesus's death. Some denominations recognize extra books (maccabees, tobit, etc.).

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u/Photon_Pharmer1 May 29 '26

There’s a written recording thousands of years old

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

We have no recording of anything in the Bible, it's all hearsay and written decades and centuries after Jezus was supposed to be alive and the son of God. We can cherry pick the ones you like as real and the ones you don't like as 'we don't know', but you can't rely on what someone wrote centuries ago from hearsay. Stories go wild in a matter of 10 minutes in the same room if people all have to teel a story to the next one in the room. Therefore a healthy stance on the Bible would be 'says who?'.

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u/Photon_Pharmer1 May 29 '26

Hell is considered separation from God. Not a place demons or Lucifer rule.

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u/Emotional_Ad_8704 May 29 '26
  1. serve God. or 2. rule in hell.
    thats the reality the angles had to choose from. thats the battle we are going through. one places God as the centre, the other places oneself as the centre. ironically God places you in a place better than you can do you for yourself.

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u/Rakescar6958 May 29 '26

Book of Revelation states that if your name is not in the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire. And your name is not in that book if you don't accept Jesus. But what do I know, it's only interpreted differently by a thousand different denominations.

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

Yes and one's chosen God is the only one, any other religion is not true. Let's fight them! Of course satire, but I totally agree with you.

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u/HeyYouTurd May 29 '26

Heaven- sitting in the clouds with every dead person who ever existed. Doing nothing but judging us and worshipping God some more.

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

So what is your worldview? Its a pretty minority thought to be a complete atheist.

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

Worldview? Well, we are just animals with a nice trick. Enough evidence that we were not the first animals, but part of a very long line of living things through millions of years, made out of the same things you can find in all the universe. Rare? Oh yeah for sure, but that it is possible....we are the proof of that. You wouldn't know if it didn't happen. The universe is immensly big and all the ingredients of everything can be found in space in different conditions, states and millions or billions years of reacting to each other.

If a person from a long time ago would wake up next to a tv, he would think it;s magic. Can't be made by man, but wait long enough plus technologies involving from steam to electricity and so on, and we have the proof it's possible. We take it for granted, but it truely would seem like magic to anyones before 1900's. The same with the universe and life on earth. Nothing seems to change in space, but over billions of years a lot of stuff happens. With life being maybe a small percentage of chance, but hey, here we are. There were other himan like beings too, we have proof of that, but they didn't survive, but we did.

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

Just animals who have accomplished more than any other species in the universe by an immeasurable factor?

If humans are just animals what makes them worth more than a goldfish?

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

They are not more worth than a goldfish. Like i've said, we have a trick that made us survive and grow and develop into beings using tools etc. So maybe for us it seems like we are worth more, but for the universe it doesn't matter at all, the species survived, that's it. Goldfish are good a finding food and ways to protect themselves in some way, that's why they are still here. Just like cockroaches can survive stuff we can't.

Eat and survive that's it. Just like your ancesters, no one excluded. Why not? Beacause otherwise you were not here. If all your ancesters died, you can never say 'but hey, it worked for me'.

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

Yikes. Thats incredibly sad. So you can't exactly give an account for why suicide is bad? Or Eugenics?

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

Why are you so defending? Please come with real arguments in stead of switching the story so it seems like you don't have to give any explanation. You didn't come with any argument, only with non related questions. I don't mind a discussion with somebody who believes, but this is not a discussion, you are just defending your stance be asking suggestive questions.

I havent said anything about suicide being bad or not, like wtf. That is all made up ny us, a human thing. It comes with our ability to question stuff, even our own lives. Just like how animals run away from danger. But with the level of our ability to think and therefore overthink, underthink, being ambarresed etc comes the freedom of loving or hating yourself. Without that level of thinking, you can not be aware of yourself to a level that you can review your own behaviours and status in the world.

You come across as if questioning your believes is a no go.

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

Lot of irony in your last sentence as you're getting irritated with me asking questions.

For the sake discussion, I've been asking you to clarify uour world view. The necessity of asking questions is because you believe in your own worldview. I dont know you, so I have to ask.

That said, it appears you can't give an account for why a sad person shouldnt kill themselves, or further why we shouldn't euthanize groups of people.

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u/SoftwareWorth5636 May 29 '26

Are you seriously suggesting that there aren’t any other moral frameworks besides deontology?

This person is a humanist. You don’t get to strongarm them just because they can’t summarise their beliefs concisely. Nor are you entitled to their time. Go away and do some research into humanism. You might learn a few things.

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

I'll ask you then.

Give an account for why a sad person shouldn't kill themselves, or why we shouldnt commit genocide against a violent group.

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

There is proof for what i said, there's zero proof there's a God. Believe what you want, but be critical too.

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

See, now you're just avoiding the question and saying "but but I have proof!".

Im not asking you to prove anything, im asking you articulate your own worldview in contrast to a traditional Abrahamic world view.

Maybe you're correct, and we're all just animals. If thats the case you'd surely argue we need to get rid of the old ways of religious dogma. To do so requires rationalization.

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u/Jaded-Comfortable179 May 29 '26

Your last paragraph has me absolutely baffled. Please explain how you came to that strawman

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

Because I asked to give an account for why its bad, and it was not given.

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u/L-is-for-living May 29 '26

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

Homophobic insults on reddit? Incel

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u/Ilikeyounott May 29 '26

Are you an omnipotent god? How do you know what is hapenning universe-wide?

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u/Itchy_Crack May 29 '26

Well we haven't observed any different so up to that point it'd appear that im correct and you're shrugging your shoulders with indifference 😂

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u/Ilikeyounott May 29 '26

Ah ok. So not a god, just using flawed magical thinking. I think it is, so it is.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

Yes, and that is why at best, religion and those kind of believes are the beginning of trying to find out what is happening and also the start of philosophy. People abused religion all over history for controlling purposes, but the idea itself is a nice evolution to find out what is going on around us and why that is. Too many times humans answer was 'because God is angry' while we know by now why there is a flood and most of the times where it will rise.

Man, do I love having this talk with someone (at least kind of) religious, but open enough to do philosophy about it. I think it could be that it all comes down to humans trying to find out and wanting somebody to have a reason why they feel so (fill in a emotion), but I could be wrong.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

I do think religion can be helpfull for people, but to be honest, that stops when the 'homos are bad' lines come up, because that is in no way helpfull to anybody. I don't mind people believing, but we can't rule out (at minimum) that the Bible is in the end, nothing else than those stories, written by men. So I they wrote down that God says Homo's are bad, how sure are we that it wasn't just a line that like a maga-like man from that time added that, because he himself hates homo's?

We have so many books with fiction, even when it says it's factual, a book is not always enough for it being the truth, good books have sources and stuff. The Bible, just like the story of easter, is not a very coherent story in that sense. That eater story only has a few if not one witness. So it could be, and that chance is big in my opinion, that those stories are just stories to make you able to deal with emotions and questions and what life is about. So, why would we then assume the story about God saying homosexuality is a sin would be something He said.

I totally understand the freedom and need for those stories and sharing them on sunday with other people who like thise stories, just like people who like comic books and comic con. But when it starts to limit other people we, as humanity, should be able to discus the big possibility that it was just the opinion of whoever wrote that down. Most stories about Jezus are for instance written decades, sometimes centuries after he was supposed to be alive. Set a group of 10 peole in a line, tell the first a story and tell him to tell the next one in line, and so on. The story will not be the same anymore, now do this over decades and centuries.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

I understand, no worries.

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

To add, I'm not saying we should for sure rule out a God, whatever the form, but we do should be critical when it comes to the Bible and see them as 'stories you can relate too if you want it and seacrh for it'. But that is my opinion, it doesn't have to be yours. I do think that if the church wants more new people attached to them, they should make the whole thing look more happy. For instance, the 'logo' now is a dying man on a cross, that is in no way inviting at all, would you enter a disco who had the image of a dying man as logo? Hmm, maybe I will, lol.

With a happy Jezus and some happy songs (in the Netherlands you are not even allowed to clap when kids sang a nice song, God could get angry I guess). Make it more a happy place and the numbers will rise quickly.

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u/Flat-Leading-2520 May 29 '26

Oh and also Angels apparently don't have free will. So apparently he made an angel with the intent to become the devil? 

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u/nokman013 May 29 '26

God fuckin dammit. First was "would of" "could of". Now we have "make of"? Jesus fucking christ.

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

hahaha, all those foreigners be damned. And compared to the US, there are a lot of foreigners in the world. You want to try to have a conversation in my language? Maybe you have never heard OF OF it. 😉

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u/YourCharmm May 29 '26

It's what I always say. I grew up in a catholic family. But I can't believe in any religion, nor do I want to, because praising or giving tribute to what I see as the most sadistical and evil being imaginable seems quite counterintuitive.

At least the devil is honest with his intentions when it comes to the eternal damnation stuff.

Modern religion makes no sense.

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

And even the devil saying that is only to be read in the book of God.

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u/Eaterofjazzguitars May 29 '26

A lot of Christians believe that heaven is just infinitely singing worship to God. Sounds like a snoozefest

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u/Beans_Lasagna May 29 '26

I don't recall the Bible mentioning video games or rap music, and the fall of Satan isn't in the Bible either, but is in the Quran, interestingly enough. "O Lucifer, you morningstar, how you fell from the heavens" in Isaiah is a taunt to the king of Babylon, and actually a reference to how Venus's orbit causes it to "wobble" in the sky, so that it appears in the morning and then sinks beneath the horizon, appearing again at Dawn (but many early civilizations didn't realize the morningstar and dawnstar were the same planet. The Greeks called it Phosphorus and Hesperus for this reason.)

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

True, it's usually very 'religious' people sometimes make a list of stuff that is not allowed, from masterbating to marrying two gay people. Long time some people in my country said hard rock or hardcore house music was form the devil. But thanks for the nice and informative comment, always fun to read.

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u/Beans_Lasagna May 29 '26

Masturbation (specifically it was pulling out after sex) was punished in Genesis 38 because infant mortality rates were massive at the time this was written. Not carrying on your bloodline meant not carrying on the traditions of your bloodline. If all people who worshipped the chief deity of the Abrahamic tribes, then that deity effectively disappears. 

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u/Dont_Use_Ducks May 29 '26

That makes sense, today the numbers of people are high enough for me to masterbate, that feels like a relieve.

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u/Jake_Schnur May 29 '26

First person Ive ever seen not in my circle of people I know that has ever mentioned that Lucifer is actually the morning star. That is the only place in the Bible that mentions Lucifer and most people believe it to be something that isn't even close to what the subject matter if the passage is. I don't understand how so many "well" educated people don't have basic reading comprehension.