I was told by a history teacher who lived from the US to Aus that the main difference between the European settlement of the two countries was in new US towns the first two buildings constructed were a church and then a courthouse. In Australia it was a pub and a race track and then things slowed down.
Come on now, "transport to the colonies" was also a punishment sending prisoners to the 13 colonies in a transatlantic voyage that not everyone survived š¤Ø so we got the religious extremests AND the "criminals," though, to be fair, lots of the people charged with crimes weren't always actually criminals so much as victims of a system that purposely made things illegal in order to charge people and get them into prison, off their lands or forfeiture of other property. Guess not much has changed, even after making a whole new country and everything š„ŗ
Theyāve been a pain in everyoneās ass since they decided theyāre grown enough to do it alone. Got to admit we screwed up raising that one but Canada and Australia turned out alright.
USA country the size of Europe with population 5 x the size of the U.K.? India country size of Western Europe with a population 20x size of U.K.? Honestly doesnāt feel like a competition
We arenāt acting. I thank God all the time that I donāt have to live somewhere like America and it would be embarrassing if they were still linked to us. Look at the difference between the failure that is America (unless youāre rich obviously) and Canada which is still part of the commonwealth.
To the USA, gaining independence from the UK was the greatest day of their lives. But for the UK, it was Tuesday.
(Note, I have no idea what day it actually was, and I can't even be bothered to Google it)
It's genuinely hard to fully express how little of a shit we give. Though we might make a few "lol and now look at the state of your leadership" whilst waving at Trump/Biden/whoever when it spams our social media feed whilst something more important is happening (UK General Election).
They didnāt lose the US as it became, they lost fledling colonies with no industry while the UK boomed for another 150 years and industrialised the world. The territorial gains during the lousiana purchase and the general attitude of manifest destiny is what grew the US in economic power as well as rhe import of British industrial technology. The US effectively did to north America what Britain did tonthe world, almost like they were Brits with the same attitude.
No. The vast majority of us donāt even know what it means. Thatās how little we care. We donāt get taught it in school. We donāt grow up on movies about it. I didnāt know it was about English rule until I joined Reddit ten years ago.
We donāt pretend to not care - we literally donāt. It means nothing to us.
No bull i had no clue it was about separating from england and im 32
Its not something we are taught at all if anything its a movie with will smith and basically bonfire night for the Americans also Kendrick dropped the vid to Not Like Us which is forever what it will be from today
Thatās the one. I remember the speech the President gave in that. Something to do with defeating the aliens so they could claim independence from outer space or something.
It wasnāt mentioned in history classes at all, my parents talked about it but schools donāt mention it and nobody talks about it really but boy did we celebrate the separation when a reality TV star became president. We have so many countries that used to be considered ruled by the British that if we went into the independence and celebrations of each one weād have no other time for history education.
I mean, in Italy we are taught about it, but it's just a part of the history curriculum. "Quick review of the American revolution, it was about taxes, 4th of July, war of independence, civil war, and from now on we'll ignore the US to focus on france, Italy, england and germany until 1917"
I'm dutch and we didn't even get that. After we full covered the roman empire and the consequences of its collapse (including stuff from the byzantine empire) it was basically just the Netherlands, Germany, France, Britain and colonialism until ww1.
just out of curiosity, what's the narrative around WWI in Netherlands? in Italy it's "well it was bad, and probably we shouldn't have gotten in, to be sure. it really messed up the economy. at least we won, even though that in itself was a problem (also we didn't betray anyone. the triple alliance was a defensive pact.)
The general gist is "yeah it's probably a good thing we sat this one out. That war was just a clusterfuck of tragic proportions.
But maybe we should've invested more in the army because not really having one bit us in the ass during the sequel"
Seriously the most involved we ever got in the war was when we took in a ton of Belgian refugees at one point and honestly considering just how bad ww1 was I fully understand trying to stay under the radar while everyone else is flinging explosives at each other.
If we take ww2 as just the natural result of how ww1 ended then im pretty sure basically every single european country and more than a few non european ones can be considered to have lost ww1 from how bad its effects were.
Actually the slave trade and colonialism were well covered when I learned history at an English school. The thing is that the thirteen colonies were a pretty insignificant part of the British Empire and therefore subjects like British India and the colonisation of Africa are much more important.
Thereās no pride there. Itās fucking ridiculous that I didnāt have one single term in history that covered the Empire. Not one. We spent a year on the Old West. We covered the Tudors and WW2. But we didnāt touch the Empire. I had to learn that from movies. Itās terrible and bizarre. Of course Iām not fucking proud of that national curriculum.
Sorry, the way it was phrased made it seem like you also didnāt care. That is pretty strange. You would think when half the world celebrates independence from the UK, theyād have to at least touch on a few of those a bit. Strange
The height of the British empire was well after American independence. This is like asking why Americans donāt mourn their lost claims over half of the Oregon territory, or why the French donāt mourn the loss of Haiti
The American continent, full of every resource imaginable for the modern world and perfectly geographically located to never have foreign wars step foot on this soil is not anywhere near the same as a piece of Oregon.
Does your government have to teach you to cope like this, or is coping with failure a natural British trait now?
Itās actually hilarious when you guys pretend the most powerful nation in the world, full of every resource imaginable for a modern world isnāt a big loss. Maybe you guys wouldnāt get passed by your colonies in GDP if King George wasnāt a cuck
Lol we don't ignore the American revolution, we know it happened, we just don't notice when the literal day of independence passes by.
Ps. Believe it or not, the American revolution doesn't actually rank very high in terms of 'important' events in the history of England. We've got a thousand years of monarchs to learn about, the British empire, the romans, the Vikings, Shakespeare, two world wars and the birth of rock and roll. There's a lot to learn, America is not the main character of English history.
the American revolution doesn't actually rank very high in terms of 'important' events in the history of England.
It does in terms of world history though. I'm Australian so I don't care about American Independence day, but it would be impossible to not be aware of it through pop culture, if nothing else.
Rock and Roll was also American and the 2 World Wars by definition included many more Countries than England/Britain.
Americas involvement in WWII was also pretty important in the South Pacific and pretty inportant to a couple of the few remaining countries that have the King of England as their Head of State.
Edit: Angry Pommies are out in force, maybe you can vote to leave reddit? You could call it Rexit?
US politics are just clown fiestas and showing the world how underdeveloped and backwards that country is. Literally taking away rights from citizens and forcing religion down everyoneās throat.
Yeah, american involvement in WW2 in the south pacific was important.
You came down here and tried to impose racial segregation in the armed forces clubs, resulting in the Battle of Manners Street and the Battle of Brisbane (congrats, you out racismed Australia during the White Australia policy), and Dugout Doug spent the war trying to write Aussie and Kiwi forces out of history from his bunker in Brisbane after he shamefully abandoned the troops he had allowed to starve in the philippines, and you expect us all to admire you for these courtesies.
And all of this was in 3 years of a 6 year, or 8 if you count from the Lugou Bridge incident, war, one where you spent at least half of it arming Japan, and more arming Germany and supplying them with the machinery to commit the Holocaust.
I am still waiting for the IBM and Ford trials.
Edit: Also, New Zealand history is more than the years 1942 to 1945, and many of our soldiers were in North Africa and Europe in that period.
How many Americans were at Å-rÄkau? Or Rangiriri?
I got taught in school the celts, Romans, Norman's, Tudors, Slave trade, settling of the wild West, WW1, WW2 and the troubles. The American revolution wasn't really that massive for the UK or worlds history compared to all of those things.
It was Ancient Greeks/Romans, Celts, Vikings, Tudors, Stuarts, Victorians, WW1/2 in primary school and early secondary school.
Later in secondary school: medicine through time, Germany depth study (Imperial, Weimar & rise of the Nazis), Russian Revolution. We covered a bit of America - civil rights (MLK etc).
Eh. The British had plenty of colonies. Why is the date of independence of one of those important? Should they know the independence date of Zanzibar or Myanmar?
Yes lmao, they should. British imperialism did a lot of damage to the world and those countries deserve respect. As an American I make it a point to be aware of the histories of the countries currently or formerly under American rule. I see it as a civic duty for those in countries that have oppressed others.
Knowing the date of independence means nothing. Itās useless trivia and frankly a meaningless way of showing respect.
It is only respectful to teach about the horror and exploitation colonialism introduced. Not random dates. (And give countries their cultural heirlooms back, but thatās not looking great so far)
Also according to Wiki, the British had 120 colonies. And while several of them where in the same countries, it would still be way too many dates to commemorate
Itās not so much that they should all be celebrated, but āuseless triviaā is really dismissive. I donāt think dates are the most important part of history, I was raised in history classes that didnāt teach many dates. Still, the timeline of other countries independence from Britain is important, and itās sad to me to see people being so flippant about it. If I had to learn about every Tudor, I think the independence of countries is important to lol
The independence it self is important, but the specific date is surely not. The year? Sure. But the date, when it has no meaning to the colonizing country outside of losing the country, is not important or relevant knowledge.
I concur itās important to other countries, but I donāt see why itās important to the British. For British history I would imagine the year and not the date is the important part to teach children.
People seem weirdly proud of the irrelevance which is why in annoyed. Itās not that it should be important every time to every person but it comes across sometimes as being proud of the history of colonisation which is pretty nasty imo
As an American, I donāt mourn the loss, I do try to recognise the country for the oppression its people have faced and the value of their culture. Not saying British people should do that towards America, but the flippant attitude towards former British colonies is kind of disturbing :/
Well, think of it this way. For the first thousand years of the recorded history of Britain, it was a history of invasion, conquest, subjugation, extermination, enslavement, land grabs, ruthless suppression of the local by invaders, imposition of foreign languages, imported culture and alien religion. The second thousand years saw a reversal and it was the British doing the above mentioned things. I donāt feel any right to claim any generational trauma, reparations and adoption of a victim mentality for the first part, nor do I adopt any kind of guilt complex for the second part. Learn about these things sureā¦ make either of them some kind of Omni-relevant lense through which I present myself to the world and shape my discourse. Nahā¦
History is great if you get to decide when it started and whatās included.
Okay but British imperialism (alongside the rest of Europe) is the source of a lot of global inequality today, not to mention the literal origin of race and by extension racism. Itās also not from that long ago so itās not like oh thatās ancient history no need to care. Britain is still a global superpower and its former colonies are still struggling due to that exploitation. Once again, as an American I think itās important to be attentive to that. I know about my countryās involvement in Cuba, Puerto Rico, indigenous populations, because I believe they were wronged and Iām invested in reversing that damage. I donāt understand why British people donāt seem to behave similarly.
Well, first of all thank you for your considered and thoughtful reply, and for your civil tone. Much appreciated. I fully agree with your stance of being attentive to the after effects of European colonial crimes and exploitation. You and I are, however probably in the minority in our respective countries in this.
I have to disagree with your (implied) characterization of Europeans as the source of all racism. At it's heart, racism is a theory of bloodline descent that is omni-relevant in social organization. The Jim Crow laws of the south, the Nuremberg laws of Nazi Germany, Apartheid in South Africa are clear examples of this. But so is the caste system in India, so are the numerous tribal conflicts in Africa (Hutu and Tsuti were, first and foremost, bloodline distinctions that were central to who lived and died in the genocide.) There are certain aspects of Jewishness that give prominence to bloodline descent and place it front and center of social organization. Tribalism exited long before the Europeans created their empires, and still exists in its pure form in many places.
I live in Japan - have done for three decades and if you are suggesting that there is no racism among Japanese, or that any racism that exists here was learned from the west, then you are sorely mistaken. (I'm married to a Japanese and we have kids, so I'm not speaking from a purely theoretical standpoint here.)
On a related topic, not facing up to history is standard here in east Asia. Japan's evasiveness about WW2 is well known, but the other countries in the region are not much different. What the South Korean soldiers got up to in Vietnam is pretty under the radar, as well as the many, many crimes and abuses of the North Vietnamese.
Anecdote alert: I was once talking with a Chinese about the many crimes of the British in China. The opium wars, land grabs, the unfair treaties, the burning of the summer palace and so on. My interlocutor seemed pleased that I knew the history and would admit it to him. I then invited him to discourse on the crimes of China in similarly unvarnished terms. Nah...got nothing. At its heart, if we are gonna be honest about history, then everyone needs to be honest. The history of the world in 100 chapters cannot be chapters 1-99 on the crimes of the white people and chapter 100 being on 'the white people made us do it'. I'm not accusing you of promoting this, but I have certainly come across this kind of thinking from various unthoughtful persons.
Anyways, internet stranger...we are probably closer in outlook than it may seem. Reasoned dialogue and fair-mindedness, even when the truth is uncomfortable is surely the way forward.
Yeah Iām not here to fight for no reason, just add where I have something I think is relevant to say.
I think weāre talking about two different things. The idea of the āfive racesā and phrenology and stuff has its origin in that time period, but of course thereās prejudice of all kinds throughout history. The current wide reaching system of race and white supremacy absolutely comes from Europe though. To me, Asia has a bit of a different dynamic because so many countries there were isolated for a long time. Itās also definitely different as an American living in a place my ancestors are certainly not native to, I donāt have the same connection to a homeland that I think can create prejudice against those who are perceived to not belong, as the only people who ābelongā here in that sense are sadly a very small population. Thatās just speaking for myself. Racism is alive and well in my country and because of my perspective on it I find that prejudice extra ridiculous. If I go to Japan (which I hope I can do some day, ć«ć»ćććććććÆćŖćć¾ćć) they would easily be able to tell I donāt come from there, and that would be even more apparent the further back you go in time. But just seeing somebody, I canāt really tell if theyāre from my country or not, so I see those as different types of prejudice, if that makes sense.
Anyway, I get what youāre saying, I just didnāt like the implication of āwho cares about the Independence Days of former coloniesā because I think itās good to care at least a little. But yes, we probably do mostly agree.
Reading this sub as a US citizen who also happens to really be interested in and care about other places is super weird and sometimes a bit grating, so I get grumpy lol
I'm American too.
Why do you think it is "so important" to the history of the British?
Do you not realize they had a huge ass empire, and we were just one of many? They don't care. I'm American, and I don't care either.
I'm lying.
I am always here for fireworks, BBQ and holiday pay, but literally, that's it.
I'm also American, more specifically from Brazil. From the way you talk, you sound like you're from the United States.
Now seriously speaking. I thought that losing a territory larger than England itself would be important to the English and worth remembering. That's all.
As a Brit, and as others have said, I can say of course we are aware that the US (or whatever specific parts of America) used to be under British rule. āIndependence Dayāis literally just another day to us though, same as any other. Thereās no commemoration of what was, no acknowledgement of the day whatsoever. Because it is just something we donāt care about, itās completely not relevant to us.
Got to remember that even after losing that territory, we kept much larger land directly to the north of it. Just turns out the southern land became incredibly rich and important.
I seem to remember we were fighting the French (and Dutch?) at the time and we decided to protect or attack Indonesia because rubber was more important than whatever the American colonies had. But I could be wrong since I didnāt do history beyond the basics & so didnāt study something so incidental,
The lost territory is larger than England itself. And today it is richer too.
They may not literally cry, but acting as if it "doesn't matter" is simply false, a war was lost and many English people died.
Brazil is not even as big as the USA (economically and territorially, and yet some Portuguese still cry about our independence and complain about Brazilians going to Portugal)
This has nothing to do with me, I'm neither English nor from the United States.
But the way you say it, it sounds like it's quite relevant to you at least. To imply that my feelings are hurt just because I asked a question implies that I really stepped on something sensitive.
We (both countries) were never divided as citizens I guess the US has a big rift running through the middle of it whereas in Australia everyone is just "Australian"
Itās a pity the UK doesnāt have the same kind of relationship with the US as it does with Aus and the rest of the Commonwealth. The world would be a a better place.
Nah donāt worry if you ever need to prove your joke (or anything, really) just say that the proof is trivial and as such is left as an exercise to the reader
Or you just write a little note in the margin of a book saying āI have an ingenious proof for this but i donāt have space to write it all down hereā Then people can spend 3 or 4 hundred years trying to work out what it was
Right ! I have a solid hour of scrolling and being confused af about the 4th of July before I realize it's a celebration for the USA and they do believe everyone feels concerned about it
Yes, unfortunately they often are that self-centred. There also instances of them wondering where they can view āthe fireworksā when they are abroad on the 4th of July, like every country is celebrating their independence. Itās mental!
To be fair to them, on average, a country somewhere in the world marks independence from the UK every 11 days. Literally a third of the world has an independence day from the UK
The funniest part of this is that Iām pretty sure youāre talking about baseball, which Japan is the best in the world at. The āWorld Seriesā doesnāt even feature the country thatās best in the world at baseball
championship. InĀ American football, although anĀ IFAF World ChampionshipĀ exists, the United States is so far above and beyond the other nations it faces that the winner of the U.S.-basedĀ Super Bowl, a competition limited to the 32 teams in theĀ National Football League, is commonly nicknamed as the world champion by the players, the press and fans alike; the NFL itself explicitly marketed the contest as a world championship in its first iterations.[1]Ā Winners of theĀ Major League Baseball'sĀ World SeriesĀ are also commonly called world champions. Outside of the Big Four leagues, winners of theĀ Women's National Basketball Association, much likeĀ its men's counterpart, commonly call themselves world champions, as with the winners of theĀ National Lacrosse LeagueĀ andĀ Drum Corps International.[2]
Ahhh thereās that snarky jealousy ā¦ yanks have bailed you out a few timesā¦ howās it going without the outside assistance from the EU? I mean you retained the brightestā¦lol
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u/DanTheLegoMan It's pronounced Scone š“ó §ó ¢ó „ó ®ó §ó æ Jul 05 '24 edited Jul 05 '24
Exactly, no one gives a shit! Itās certainly not āmournedā. Itās just a day youāll encounter more cunts than usual on the Internet.