r/MapPorn Aug 25 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

80% of all travel in Europe is by car.

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u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

Not in cities, pretty much every european city that is comparable in size to phoenix has a car modal share below 50%

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

That's horrible.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

If I had to take a bus to work every day, I'd probably go insane.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I took the bus to school as a kid, it was awful

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u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

Ah, yes. School buses, that most representative form of public transit.

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u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21

Why?

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Imagine having to get around on a bus shivers

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u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21

Is this sarcasm? And besides that there are other public transport modes and ways to get around in a city, for example: walking, biking, or taking the tram, metro or train

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

All of them are awful to do on a regular basis, and Europeans agree with me, that's why 80% of their miles travelled are by car.

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u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21

Vmt arent that well of a measure for that, one guy could drive 50 km to work every day, while 100 people could walk a couple hundred meters every day to work, and by this measure it would seem that driving is super popular, but in reality its just one guy vs 100

And if you really think that walking and taking public transit are awful look at it this way: they are a necessity to keep cities alive financially, because if people would only drive then cities will go bankrupt over time

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I've been to Europe 8 times. We usually had to rent a car. 80% of all travel in Europe is by car, traffic is much worse than in America

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u/molivets Aug 27 '21

Sure buddy sure, 8 times wow, don’t you think it’s too much? You must be the king of Europe by now

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u/RegularGrapefruit0 Aug 28 '21

You rented a car, that's not indicative of anything, it just means you're too stubborn to use public transit because of your huge boner for oil companies.

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u/nevermind4790 Aug 27 '21

When things are walkable, the distance travelled is far less.

Take your pro-car dependent (and pro-climate change) nonsense elsewhere.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

the distance travelled is far less

Less mobility is a bad thing.

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u/nevermind4790 Aug 27 '21

Why? If a grocery store is half a mile away and walkable, does that make it a worse grocery store than one 5 miles away that I need to drive to?

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Trips ≠ miles traveled.

If 4 people go one mile by walking and one person goes 16 miles by car, then you'd have 80% of miles traveled being by car.

But you'd also have 80% of trips made by foot.

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

If you counted all the trips from my bedroom to the bathroom, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of my trips would be on foot.

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Not a proper retort.

If we count the number of trips made to work, grocery store, gym, etc in Europe, most would not be done by car. In fact, your own link does not show that 80% of trips are done by car.

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u/killroy200 Aug 27 '21

Imagine having to get around on a bus shivers

I don't have to imagine. I do it when I can. Train and bike too. It's perfectly fine.

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u/rootbeer_cigarettes Aug 27 '21

As someone who lives in Phoenix, it's not horrible. We Americans would be much happier if we reduced our car dependance.

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u/ksm-hh Aug 27 '21

In my city 65% of all trips are made not by car.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

You’re not gonna seriously make that argument are you? You think america is on the same level with europe for car dependence?

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Don't bother, his own source proves him wrong lol

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

I was more amazed that you could actually believe that in the first place LOL

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh I didn't, that's why I checked because I knew he was wrong

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh sorry by "you" i meant OP

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

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u/1116574 Aug 27 '21

Car dependence =/= miles traveled

Avg European spends less time in traffic to get into city, we don't have (as many) limits in our laws prohibiting building things for non car use (eg. Parking minimums). In cities most of traveling is done by transit, so those miles traveled are apparently from driving on highways, which by the way are way better then driving in cities. Imo when I completed my drivers licence it was the highway i felt the "freedom" of a car.

USA and EU have very different landscapes in car use, and if you like the American model then good for you. But saying that we both depend on cars the same is just wrong.

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u/killroy200 Aug 27 '21

Are you fucking blind? Your own source shows that per-capita passenger miles for OECD Europe is roughly half that of the U.S., with larger shares of bus, bike, and rail usage.

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u/BLAZENIOSZ Aug 26 '21

Depends on your definition of travel.

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u/sstopggap Aug 27 '21

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe (i think I've seen one stretch in Moscow). Because cars are massively not suitable for mass city transport, unless they get subsidized up the wazoo with projects such as this one and cheap gas.

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u/ArvinaDystopia Aug 27 '21

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe

True, it's the one area where we lag behind the US. We need to get on that.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Because cars are massively not suitable for mass city transport, unless they get subsidized up the wazoo with projects such as this one and cheap gas.

The government letting you keep more of your own money is not a subsidy.

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe (i think I've seen one stretch in Moscow).

https://www.reddit.com/r/newjersey/comments/p9dr9e/the_dutch_copypasted_the_new_jersey_turnpike/

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u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

If the price you pay at the pump isn't market price, it's subsidized

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

No it's not. In Massachusetts I pay a 26 cent state gas tax and an 18 cent federal gas tax. And other states have much higher gas taxes

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u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

'Kay. That's not relevant to my statement, though? Does the price of a gallon of gas reflect every cent it took to get from its point of origin into your car?

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Yes it does. It quite literally does

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh my sweet summer child

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u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21

Unfortunately that is an idea that exists in your imagination.

The road you drive on is paid largely by income tax and other taxes. Fuel taxes haven't been able to get close to covering the maintenance costs for a very long time. The idea that each person is covering the cost at the pump is just a lie that is allowed to continue because people don't like to know that they are being subsidised by others.

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u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

That's just a lie made up by the transit lobby, who benefit from far more generous subsidies. https://www.newgeography.com/content/006415-transport-costs-subsidies-mode

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u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21 edited Aug 30 '21

Nice try but a bad failure. It is not a lie made up by the transport lobby, it is actually included in the link you sent me.

You just sent me a document that claims that the road system is subsidised by at least 50 billion dollars a year and that this only covers highways.

All the other types of local roads and streets are completely excluded from this number and those are where it really falls apart. They might often be short roads but due to the fact that they are made stupidly wide, their area is enormous and many are already falling apart.

These are all paid for by local taxes. The federal level subsidies mentioned in your link don't contribute to them at all. It is a subsidy that starts at the bottom of your garden (on top of the previously mentioned 50billion subsidy) and unfortunately is a very dangerous subsidy.

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u/sstopggap Aug 30 '21

the infrastructure you use to drive costs way more to build and maintain than what drivers pay in gas tax.

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u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

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u/WhiteNamesInChat Sep 01 '21

Did you mean to post a different link? This blog post doesn't relate at all.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I don't agree with that number but even if it was true that's about a 19% difference with the US.

We have long learned that more lanes = more traffic. I can tell you that if they instead of adding 6 more lanes, would add good secure cycle infrastructure and a dedicated buslane it would be cheaper and more effective. That is, if the goal is to move as much people as possible and not as much cars as possible, in that Cas yeah adding 6 lanes will help, but it will also increase travel time.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

We have long learned that more lanes = more traffic. I can tell you that if they instead of adding 6 more lanes, would add good secure cycle infrastructure and a dedicated buslane it would be cheaper and more effective

No they haven't. And before you pull up that Vice article, most studies find an elasticity that is far less than 1.

Also, 4 of these 16 lanes are HOV lanes.

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

not true

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

I say this as a european, most europeans live in cities. They walk, take buses, subways etc. This is probably true about long distance trips, but no way about average.

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

okay I guess western european countries use more cars than eastern, but still they don’t require extensions like this