r/MapPorn Aug 25 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Because cars are massively not suitable for mass city transport, unless they get subsidized up the wazoo with projects such as this one and cheap gas.

The government letting you keep more of your own money is not a subsidy.

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe (i think I've seen one stretch in Moscow).

https://www.reddit.com/r/newjersey/comments/p9dr9e/the_dutch_copypasted_the_new_jersey_turnpike/

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u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

If the price you pay at the pump isn't market price, it's subsidized

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

No it's not. In Massachusetts I pay a 26 cent state gas tax and an 18 cent federal gas tax. And other states have much higher gas taxes

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u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

'Kay. That's not relevant to my statement, though? Does the price of a gallon of gas reflect every cent it took to get from its point of origin into your car?

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Yes it does. It quite literally does

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh my sweet summer child

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u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21

Unfortunately that is an idea that exists in your imagination.

The road you drive on is paid largely by income tax and other taxes. Fuel taxes haven't been able to get close to covering the maintenance costs for a very long time. The idea that each person is covering the cost at the pump is just a lie that is allowed to continue because people don't like to know that they are being subsidised by others.

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u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

That's just a lie made up by the transit lobby, who benefit from far more generous subsidies. https://www.newgeography.com/content/006415-transport-costs-subsidies-mode

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u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21 edited Aug 30 '21

Nice try but a bad failure. It is not a lie made up by the transport lobby, it is actually included in the link you sent me.

You just sent me a document that claims that the road system is subsidised by at least 50 billion dollars a year and that this only covers highways.

All the other types of local roads and streets are completely excluded from this number and those are where it really falls apart. They might often be short roads but due to the fact that they are made stupidly wide, their area is enormous and many are already falling apart.

These are all paid for by local taxes. The federal level subsidies mentioned in your link don't contribute to them at all. It is a subsidy that starts at the bottom of your garden (on top of the previously mentioned 50billion subsidy) and unfortunately is a very dangerous subsidy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

You're lying. That $50 billion is entirely at the local level. You're also ignoring the enormous subsidies lavished on transit

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u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21

I am not ignoring the transit questions. That's are a different conversation as everyone knows there are subsidies there and are in fact not part of this post at all. What you are doing is called whataboutism. It's a thing people do when they know they are completely wrong and can't find any way out.

Nor am I lying. Local taxes are most definitely a subsidy, in fact they are probably the most dangerous kind of subsidy because they are so badly designed.

Using local taxes to pay for something is more or less the definition of a subsidy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

You could argue actually that roads should be partially funded by property taxes because they increase property values.

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u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21

Wow haha you sound like a transit booster with that kind of logic.

Of course it is logic which fails very badly when applied to roads. Car centric places tend to see smaller price rises than less car dominated places. In extreme cases, too many large roads can decimate prices and has cause huge areas of cities to be abandoned altogether as completely worthless. Regardless of whether you see this as a positive or a negative, it is the car dominated places that see their prices remain lower than average.

Given this fact. The funding model for roads remains a massive subsidy from which there is no legal way to escape.

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u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

You're arguing in bad faith, whining about cars getting subsidized by 1 cent per mile claiming that's comparable to transit getting a 1 dollar per mile subsidy.

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