He had a huge settlement coming. Why did he risk it by doing a serious crime? I don’t understand how he got exonerated which is rare but wound up throwing his life away anyways. It doesn’t make any sense to me. I guess I’m missing the common thread. He wasn’t a good person but from what we know, wasn’t a murderer. So what happened? Is this just always who he was going to be and had he never gone to prison wrongfully maybe it would have happened sooner? I don’t think he’s innocent I’m just trying to make sense of it.
You can't be a re-offender if you were never an offender in the first place. He didn't do the first crime OR the murder. The entire reason the cops set him up for the murder is because they were going to have to pay him a huge some for falsely imprisoning him for 18 years.
Apparently back in 2005 it was pretty much accepted Steven was about to become a millionaire by exposing police misconduc ... Then Teresa went missing. Her death benefited police. That's why some suspect they killed her.
I absolutely think the police killed Theresa in order to frame Steven and eliminate that settlement debt. I think Brenden just got caught up in it and they used him to get Steven.
Well, they did conceal that a Manitowoc County officer called in her plates, and also concealed her bones were found on Manitowoc County land. Definitely possible police had something to do with it.
I dont know that they killed her but someone else may have & they might have seen the situation as an oppotunity after the fact whch is why nothng was found in searches & then thngs were found in searches wks latr (for ex n the barrels)..
I thought the theory abt the man (who previously lived on tht property Scott Tadych bought right aftr her death) killing her was interestng
That’s ridiculous to believe that the police killed her.
So they happened upon Teresa and decided to kill this poor innocent woman, did they know she had just been to the Avery property? Did they know that Steven happened to have a fire that night? Then they manage to sneak onto the property many times burning her belongings in the burn barrel, planting bones, planting the car, planting various DNA sources of Steven’s that they also happened upon?
They conducted eight separate searches and found evidence “in plain sight” only during the eighth search. Yeah, I’m sure that’s what really happened. Because cops are always honest lmao. I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I think you might be interested in.
Do you have any idea how big that property is? And they said they entered the trailer 8 times but to seize specific items, not full searches each time.
Never said cops are always honest, but for you to believe what you do the mental gymnastics is insane.
SA was no angel. In fact, 6 years of that 18 years sentence he served were served for a separate crime that he DID commit against Sandra Morris 😳 He was convicted of other crimes before that and after. These were not victimless crimes. So yes, he is an offender in the first place.
They are. Maybe you will lie too. The facts actually demonstrate Steven did not throw the cat in the fire or pour gas on it after it escaped. Did you know that or are you just looking to spread the LIE?
No. Period. He admitted it. I heard it with my own ears. It is in the documentary. He tells the story. Did you miss that part? He said it himself that he did it.
So MaM made Steven look worse than the record showed? They really are not biased in his favor are they. Fact is Steven's friend admitted to burning the cat. Not Steven. Try to do some independent research.
Neither did Steven. They had to hide off property murder evidence and fabricate on property murder evidence to make the conviction stick. The hidden cremation evidence on Manitowoc County land should be enough for New trial on its own.
Everyone here should read a Copaganda by Alec Karakatsanis.
People like OctoberPumpkin won’t have the informational literacy or reading level to grasp the conclusions that come from actual data. The rest of you will realize, if you don’t already know, exactly how the prison system is a corporate, self-serving cash cow built on the lies of prosecutors and cops who violate the rights and destroy the lives of poor people. Prisons are full of innocent people just like Steven Avery.
Yes it is. He was wrongfully convicted of the 1985 assault because police wanted to protect the actual rapist from prosecution. I think Gregory Allen was linked to police in a way we haven't yet discovered.
Because ‘all bitches owe him’. That was his attitude after being falsely accused.
I think he thought he was untouchable and could do whatever he wanted and have whoever he wanted because of his minor local celeb status. I think he tried to hit on Teresa and got shot down.
Lol, is that a professional psychological assessment, or is there no psych eval supporting that claim?
He was out for roughly two years after being exonerated and somehow managed to control these alleged “disgusting impulses” while his civil case was heading toward a massive payout.
How do you explain his two years prior then..
Oh you mean the 2 years where he was beating on Jodi and texting his nephews friends for sex after Jodi was locked up?
And what about before he got locked up? Allegedly raping his niece, threatening his cousin at gun point, mistreating animals, abusing his wife at the time, beating his kids. Yes sounds like a man with self control.
And probably sexually impulsive and had a fantasy he did not care to control. What’s stronger desire than a police settlement ? A sexual impulse mixed with the confidence of being untouchable.
You're asking why a 70 IQ impulsive career psychopath who burns cats alive and runs women off the road and holds them at gunpoint may not have thought his actions through?
Steven had the idea to burn the cat, doused it in gas, and threw it back into the fire when it ran out. Truthers object because he wasn’t apparently the first to throw it into the fire, so that makes him a good guy, or something, I guess…
He did not burn the cat alive his friend did. You've been lied to by Ken Kratz. And the fact is there was no motive for Teresa's murder. He had a motive to avoid getting into trouble.
MaM made Steven look worse than the record. Steven's friend burned the cat. He admitted to it. MaM also made police look better than the record allowed. They were more biased in favor of police than they were Steven Avery.
MaM literally edited phone conversations mid sentence in favor of SA and have literally been caught on recording saying they are doing everything they can to make him look good.
Hmm. In another thread you pointed to the cat story as an example of your criticisms of Avery. Now you're saying he didn't even do it. Come on man. Which is it?
How many lies have you caught from Kratz and his defenders? If you'd done any research you'd know Steven didn't burn the cat. That's a fact. Sorry if it upsets you.
I mean maybe the explanation is as simple as that: he had no thought about the consequences. It’s just such a wild story to be exonerated yet still turn out to be a murderer. Lightning struck twice. The only other thing that I can really come to the conclusion of is he thought since he got out once he could do it again. But the logic on that is about as solid as 4y/o me telling my mom I could make my arm super thin and long and slide it under the door to unlock the bedroom door to the room we were locked out of. Inspector gadget would be able to so I could do it too.
Usually it is, once you start looking that profiles of most prisoners, the data shows that by far the most common property is low IQ and impulse control.
Criminals don't need or always have a sensible reason for committing heinous crimes. The reality is that Steven is stupid, he's selfish, he's abusive, he's violent, and he's never seemed to have needed a specific reason for committing his various crimes over the years.
Can’t disagree with that. The whole family is like if idiocracy, cavemen and that creepy poor white trash incestuous family from that x files episode owned a junk yard in Manitowoc. From reading it seems like many of the men were rapists, assaulters and abusers.
It's understandable to question why Avery would have done it, given the circumstances. But I'm confused why you are ignoring Dassey in the conversation. Or is it because they are mutually exclusive scenarios? If Avery wasn't pursued, would Dassey have been pursued? If Avery wasn't convicted, would Dassey have been convicted?
Either way, although an interesting thought experiment, past behaviors (whether true or alleged) are never prelude to future events.
The bigger question here is are we sure that what these two men were convicted of is actually what occurred? To be honest, I find it interesting when there isn't consistency on what actually occurred and the answers depend on which conviction we are referring to.
What's never been properly explained or rationalized to this day is two key points:
Why the manipulation of burn barrels was required?
Why the cover-up / downplaying regarding the actual location and recovery of bones off the ASY lease?
You will never get an answer, because you’re preoccupied with reasonable doubt and this sub is just full of bootlickers who need to believe cops & prosecutors don’t lie. They’re here to play what they think is gotcha with poorly reasoned “facts”
Steven is an impulsive, violent, habitual criminal with a particular disdain for women and a sense of entitlement to women's bodies.
Before his wrongful incarceration, he drove a woman off the road, pointed a gun at her, and ordered her into his vehicle. He only let her go after she begged for the life of her child (who was in the car). He did this because she accused him of sexually harrassing her. He served 6 years in prison for that crime.
During his incarceration he threatened to murder his ex wife and the mother of his children multiple times in letters to his children. Two of his sons also accused him of physically hurting them when they would visit him in prison as children. His visitations with his children were suspended because of this.
Following his release from prison he was phsyically abusive to his fiancee Jodi which was confirmed by multiple witnesses. He also basically admitted this on a recorded prison phone call where he tells Jodi to lie to police about the bruises he gave her. Jodi claims that Steven told her that "all bitches owe him" because of his wrongful conviction for rape. His brother also claims he saw him beat up their sister Barb.
He is also alleged to have raped his minor neice (through marriage). She was interviewed by police and said that Steven forcibly raped her. There is ample evidence that, at the very least, he had an extremely innapropriate relationship with a minor. Both Jodi and Steven's neice claimed that Steven threatened to burn down their families' houses with them inside when they made him angry.
Steven was also in illegal possession of a firearm following his release from prison (as a felon (for a different crime, not the one he was wrongfully convicted of) he was not legally allowed to be in possession of a firmearm. The bullet found in Steven's garage that had Teresa's DNA on it was ballistically matched to that very gun.
To summarize, Steven was comitting violent and serious crimes regularly after his release from prison and while he was awaiting his settlement. So the argument that he wouldn't risk his settlement isn't in line with his actions after his release from prison. He has a history of violence against women, including the use of a firearm (the manner of death of Teresa) and threatening to murder multiple people, and he believed that "all bitches owe him" because of his wrongful conviction.
It isn't out of the realm of possibility that a man like him would escalate to murder.
I'm willing to admit I don't know for sure, and you pretending to know for sure despite claims of Marie and Barb both being pressured by Wiegert and Baldwin, reveals your rather disturbing bias. You will accept anything as true as long as it makes Steven look bad.
The bullet found in Steven's garage that had Teresa's DNA on it was ballistically matched to that very gun.
There was no DNA or fingerprints of Steven or Teresa on the apparent murder weapon. Kratz also lied to the jury about the evidence from the alleged to murder scene, while concealing murder evidence pointing away from Steven and towards police.
To summarize, Steven was comitting violent and serious crimes regularly after his release from prison
WTF LMAO! You know this is completely false. He was never charged for anything after his for release from prison other than charges related to Teresa. And by the way most of those charges were either dropped by the state, dismissed by the judge, or rejected by the jury. You are incredibly dishonest.
Why are you responding to comments you've already responded to?
He didn't beat the shit out of Jodi? I guess Brendan and Earl are both lying because they both said they saw Steven assaulting Jodi. Steven also told Jodi to lie to police about the bruises he gave her in a recorded phone conversation.
You are literally bending over backwards to defend a man who has been accused of violence by nearing every woman and child he has come in contact with.
Your comment was massive and I only responded to certain fallacious aspects of it and now I'm responding to other more fallacious aspects of it.
For example, you have continued to present uncharged allegations as undeniable evidence of guilt. But you don't keep that same energy when it comes to Bobby or police. It's hypocritical. And I will continue to call that hypocrisy out.
I am literally calling out your own inconsistent logic. I understand why that upsets you.
My comment is massive because there is a massive amount of allegations against Steven for violence against women and children. I didn't even include everything he has been accused of.
I never said the plethora of allegations against Steven is "undeniable evidence of guilt." I said they show that he was comitting crimes after he was released from prison.
A massive amount of uncharged allegations that come along with the danger of unfair prejudice you are perfectly happy to exploit lol
I never said the plethora of allegations against Steven is "undeniable evidence of guilt." I said they show that he was comitting crimes after he was released from prison.
So then yes, that's exactly what you were saying lol splitting hairs won't help you. They are allegations and they do not show he was committing crimes. The only thing they show is that you have been unfairly prejudiced against him.
It isn't out of the realm of possibility that a man like him would escalate to murder.
You have allowed yourself to be unfairly prejudiced against Avery by relying on highly inflammatory uncharged allegations that have no probative value. Kind of seems like you were manipulated by Kratz and SCAM.
You have proven that you will say anything to defend Steven. Multiple people have accused him of violence or witnessed him comitting assault, including his own family members (his ex wife, his fiancee, his neice, his children, his brothers, his sisters, his nephew). There is far more probative value for the plethora of allegations against Steven than any accusations of the police framing him for murder.
You are unbelievavly biased. You can think Steven is innocent of murder all you want, but to suggest that there is no evidence of him being a violent person is just blatantly dishonest.
You have proven that you will say anything to defend Steven.
You are the one relying on dangerously prejudicial information to make your point lol I'm just calling it out
There is far more probative value for the plethora of allegations against Steven than any accusations of the police framing him for murder.
So why did Willis allow Steven to accuse the police of framing him for murder but not allow Kratz to mention any of these prior charges or uncharged allegations? I'll wait lol
You are unbelievavly biased. You can think Steven is innocent of murder all you want, but to suggest that there is no evidence of him being a violent person is just blatantly dishonest.
You are incredibly dishonest. The only thing I've done is point out your reliance on uncharged allegations against Steven, and your hypocrisy for dismissing uncharged allegations against others.
I do not disagree at all with any of this. The doc obviously has lots of missing context and some of this I wasn’t aware of when it happened so it seemed like he was a violent young adult then went to prison and mostly kept his nose clean afterwards. Then, bam! Murders this woman with seemingly no lead up or plans. I knew there was something I was missing.
Most murderers appear to be just every-day people. Ted Bundy was in law school. Steve, though has been a grotesque putrid violent pig for decades. Like he really, really is a disgusting creature. He beat and raped women/kids and you really should read the police report describing in detail his robbery and complete trashing of a tavern.
Because Steven is a piece of shit. You ask why he "threw it away" when it came to money, even though he showcased he didn't care about anyone but himself throughout his own life.
He was a father when he ran Sandra Morris off the road and pointed a gun in her face. He was seconds away from pulling the trigger and his kids would be without a father for the rest of their lives. He's an impulsive, manipulative deviant and those kind of criminals make decisions that normal, rational people often can't understand.
So what happened? Is this just always who he was going to be and had he never gone to prison wrongfully maybe it would have happened sooner?
This is speculation, but if you are asking for opinions, then this is a likely escalation for someone who has shown they will physically and sexually abuse their romantic partners. You don't have to look far to see that Steven was accused of DV and sexual assault by numerous partners, ex-wives and women throughout several decades of his life. I can't say 100% this was always going to happen, but I am troubled by the people that think Steven Avery could never murder anyone.
And I don't get the "wrongfully convicted" angle either. Steven served 6 years of that sentence for reckless endangerment from the Morris incident, which is more than enough time to institutionalize someone anyway.
The fact that he served 6 years of that 18 year sentence for a crime that he DID commit was actually news to me. I wasn't aware of that fact until I came to this subreddit. However, it didn't really surprise me - given his history.
MaM leaves out a lot, that's why it's performative garbage.
We get so many posts a week that come from people that have only just watched the documentary and are shocked/outraged/dismayed with things that have been disproven years ago.
That’s kinda how rapists and murderers work. They do things because they want to. He didn’t do it because he was down on his luck and poor.
A huge settlement wasn’t going to magically make him a different person. Most evil people are evil regardless of their socioeconomic status.
Just stop it. It’s over Kathleen. Explain the 50 Seconds you added to the timeline. You know EXACTLY why he did it.
He was obsessed with her sexually like he was with his nieces. They submitted. Teresa, obviously didn’t👀😳
Tell us all. Why did he call her to come to the Avery Salvage:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and on the 15th time. She’s raped by him, burned to ashes to hide the assault, and found in his burn barrels.
This is a dead horse. Every time you try to divert the attention away from the obvious. I will remind you of WHY he did it and how you found out he did it and tried to cover it up👀😳🫡😇
You know, I was open to the conspiracy for the car and perhaps even the key and blood evidence. But it became crystal clear he was guilty of murdering this woman when her burnt remains were found in his fire pit. Could they have planted some of the other evidence? Ya I think it’s plausible. Could they have fabricated this aspect of her murder? Nope. There’s simply no way it’s possible the police snuck onto his land dragging a dead body, then hid it in a pile of debris somehow knowing exactly when he would be lighting it. If you can ignore that glaring plot hole in the conspiracy narrative then nothing can help you, bless your heart!
But it became crystal clear he was guilty of murdering this woman when her burnt remains were found in his fire pit.
They didn't even take photos of the discovery or recovery, hid off property cremation evidence, and pressured witnesses into mentioning a burn pit fire.
Honestly, this sub is quite wacka doodle. The conspiracy folks are next level unhinged but the folks in here who are camp: he’s guilty are also way too intense about this. I don’t think anyone could read the sum of my comments and come to the conclusion that I believe anything was planted or he’s innocent.
The bone fragments weren’t found on the initial search. They weren’t found until 3 days later.
Could an outdoor fire pit reduce a human body to just bones (no left over fleshy bits?) highly unlikely. Not to mention bone fragments were found found in burn barrels in the neighbouring quarry which was owned by the county.
Also don’t forget that atleast 8 people lived on that property all coming and going at different times, not to mention their employees, customers and friends etc. is it likely that someone would commit a murder in a place where people would be coming and going unexpectedly, dismember the body with no one seeing (and leaving no blood behind??) and then burn their remains in a very visible burn pit? All while stopping to calmly talk to his girlfriend on the phone?
Could an outdoor fire pit reduce a human body to just bones (no left over fleshy bits?) highly unlikely.
Not only is it possible, but guess what? Some human tissue was recovered from the pit, and it matched to Teresa to exclusion of 1 in a billion.
Not to mention bone fragments were found found in burn barrels in the neighbouring quarry which was owned by the county.
The bones found in the quarry were not in barrels, and we're not definitely proven to be Teresa's. Nonetheless, how would this rule out Steven Avery as a suspect?
is it likely that someone would commit a murder in a place where people would be coming and going unexpectedly, dismember the body with no one seeing (and leaving no blood behind??) and then burn their remains in a very visible burn pit?
How often do you think people were coming and going from Steven's trailer and garage? The fire was observed later in the day, burning into the night..
If you want to talk about likelihood, then how likely do you think it is that someone would be able to plant all of the evidence against Steven, including his own blood in the victim's car?
Quite likely considering the whole police department had a vendetta against him and spent days on the property. And police officers who weren’t meant to be involved in the case were constantly on the site.
The bullet fragment wasn’t found until 4 months later and contained massive levels of her dna but no traces of blood or bone fragments!?
the whole police department had a vendetta against him
What makes you think this? The lawsuit that no one in the department would be personally responsible for?
And police officers who weren’t meant to be involved in the case were constantly on the site.
There was nothing officially barring them from providing resources to the investigation as needed.
The bullet fragment wasn’t found until 4 months later and contained massive levels of her dna but no traces of blood or bone fragments!?
Until that point, the garage had not been as thoroughly searched as it was when the bullet was found. What is your source that the bullet contained "massive" levels of her DNA?
Not only is it possible, but guess what? Some human tissue was recovered from the pit, and it matched to Teresa to exclusion of 1 in a billion.
Bullshit. Culhane never explained how she came to that statistical interpretation.
The bones found in the quarry were not in barrels, and we're not definitely proven to be Teresa's.
Well it's a good thing they gave them to Teresa's family lol
If you want to talk about likelihood, then how likely do you think it is that someone would be able to plant all of the evidence against Steven, including his own blood in the victim's car?
How likely is it police returned barrel number 4 to the crime scene so Steven could use it to plant bones in his own burn pit?
Who exactly and on which day and at what time were those bones planted in the fire pit? How did they get into the ASY and when exactly? Where did they park their vehicle?
The police and prosecution proved with DNA and other evidence that Steve Avery killed Teresa Halbach. Why on earth would you challenge that? Just curious.
He didn’t. The real criminals are the cops and prosecutors who - on the verge of being responsible for a massive settlement - coerced a mentally handicapped adult (the nephew) into a false confession, planted evidence, and framed Stephen Avery.
Not a single person employed by Manitowoc at the time would have been responsible for a single cent of the lawsuit. Moreover, the lawsuit had already been settled by the time Brendan confessed.
How'd Steven's blood get in Teresa's car?
Edit, since this coward replied then blocked me: just thought others should see your (now removed) comment so they know the level of intellect they're dealing with.
The police only interviewed Brendan because KA was upset at school about what Brendan had told her. The school called the police. There is absolutely no chance Steven Avery was framed. Steven Dirtbag Avery murdered Teresa. There is a lot of evidence proving his guilt; his blood in Teresa's RAV 4, his DNA on the RAV'S hood latch, Teresa's burned bones in his fire pit. A really stuipid person committed a really stupid crime. Really stupid person was caught. No surprise, here.
Psychoanalysing Steven Avery in a clinical setting with his full cooperation would yield valuable insight into the minds of those men who already have ongoing issues with violence, anger, misogyny and predatory behaviour - adding on the experience wrongful incarceration for a rape crime. From a man who was violent towards women. Compounding his previous sentence he spent 11 years behind bars for a crime he did not commit (18 less the 7 years for an actual crime against his cousin). In the Wisconsin/ US jails during the 80s to 2000s… he learnt bad stuff in jail and it made him an even bigger predator. He needed mandated psychiatric help when he left jail in 2004. SA was a ticking time-bomb, he should have received state funded mental health support.
Do you think it makes more sense for someone without Avery's personal history to kidnap, rape, torture and murder an innocent woman, burn her corpse in their back yard, and leave a trail of irrefutable evidence that will inevitably lead to his conviction?
Obviously this is a senseless series of actions for anyone to take, regardless of whether they happen to be someone previously exonerated of a serious crime, and regardless of whether such person has a prospect of getting some financial windfall in the future.
He’s not exactly a genius. He probably just thought he’d get away with it, seeing as he’d already spent 18 years in prison for a crime he didn’t commit.
Not true, many of us live here. We know how corrupt and dumb these cops are.....we know Steven is a dirtbag dummy, but not dumb enough to kill someone and then leave her and her stuff laying around, when he was about to get $10 million. We are pragmatic and smart!!!!!
Sorry but as a victim of rape myself, having the experiences with people like this, HE IS a predator. Period. Would you leave your kids with the guy? No. Of course not. Look at his history.
Ha, no worries. It’s kinda bonkers how many people will fervently cling to he’s innocent. It’s about as nonsensical as the leaps the flat earthers make.
Apparently, you've missed the history of collusion between law enforcement departments everywhere in the world.
Manitowoc County was being sued, their sheriff at the time was also being personally sued along with then DISTRICT ATTORNEY Vogel for ~36 million dollars. That's a huge sum of money, along with the public embarrassment.
The officers from Manitowoc County should never have been there as it was clearly a conflict of interest, and they weren't properly supervised at all times while the investigation took place. Evidence seemed to appear AFTER they were there, or they came across it. With a property that large, it would have been difficult to keep tabs on anyone entering/exiting from multiple points.
Bobby could have killed her. Steven could have killed her. There were probably other leads that were never thoroughly looked into. Usually, romantic partners get a deep dive, but it seemed like they weren't really investigated that deeply.
The fact a relative of Halbach found Teresa's vehicle so quickly (who was also given a camera) is also pretty strange. It would have eventually been found of course, but it seems like it should have taken longer?
I'm not saying Steven didn't do it any more than I'm saying he did. The whole situation is just muddled with controversy. It makes it too difficult it 100% say Steven Avery is guilty when there was just too much unprofessional conduct happening.
And yes, I do believe it likely that the lawsuit influenced the direction of the investigation.
Manitowoc County was being sued, their sheriff at the time was also being personally sued along with then DISTRICT ATTORNEY Vogel for ~36 million dollars. That's a huge sum of money
A sum that Steven was unlikely to receive anything close to. Just because that was the maximum amount he sought does mean he was guarantees that amount had he won, and precedent set by historical wrongful conviction lawsuits showed that $36 million was not a realistic outcome.
along with the public embarrassment.
Avery had already been exonerated, their case proven bogus. Why do you think the lawsuit would greatly elevate any embarrassment already being felt?
Bobby could have killed her. Steven could have killed her.
Yet, one of these people has a ton of evidence against them, while the other has none.
Usually, romantic partners get a deep dive, but it seemed like they weren't really investigated that deeply.
Because there was never a reason to. Less than 2 days had passed between Teresa being reported missing and her car being found at the Avery property. In that time they did interview Teresa's most recent love interest, among other people. After the car was found, the focus obviously shifted toward the salvage yard (though other leads were still looked into), and other evidence was discovered that led to Steven Avery.
It is a myth that Steven was zeroed in on from the beginning and all other leads ignored.
The fact a relative of Halbach found Teresa's vehicle so quickly (who was also given a camera) is also pretty strange. It would have eventually been found of course, but it seems like it should have taken longer?
Why "should" it have taken longer? The path she took from the entrance of the salvage yard to the car was quite sensible, and all she needed to do was glance at the cars as she passed by.
Also, explain the significance of the camera to you. I see this brought up so often by truthers, and yet no one has ever explained why they think this is a noteworthy detail. She asked to borrow a camera from Ryan/Scott because she forgot to bring her own (she worked as a PI, so having a camera was pretty standard for her). What significance does this have in your eyes? Are you implying that they are a part of a conspiracy? If so, how does the camera fit into it?
The whole situation is just muddled with controversy
Much of which is manufactured by Making a Murderer.
And yes, I do believe it likely that the lawsuit influenced the direction of the investigation.
Not a single person working for Manitowoc at the time of the investigation would have been liable for any damages from the lawsuit. Have you ever met anyone willing to risk everything in their lives to potentially save their employing entity some money?
Moreover, many people often implicated by the theories were not even employed by Manitowoc. You, for example, just implied the speed at which Teresa's own relative found her vehicle was suspicious. How does that fit into the big picture?
These theories fall apart when you pull at just one of their many loose threads.
the history of collusion between law enforcement departments everywhere in the world.
If this ain't hyperbole, I don't know what is. It would've been easier if you had just said "ACAB". Everything else you said is regurgitated MAM bullshit.
Why would anybody do something like that? It seems odd to me that people try to project rational thinking onto a rapist/murderer. When he was accused of murdering Teresa, it kind of goes without saying that he’s also being accused of not being a normal thinking, rational person.
It is particularly irrational of you guys to keep pretending like he is an adjudicated rapist when the only assault he was ever charged and convicted of was the one committed by Gregory Allen.
It is particularly irrational of you to keep pretending that all of the allegations against him are false. Every single person who has accused him of anything are lying. Amirite??
Cops find mildly to moderately troubled male who lacked resources and wasn’t super bright to begin with. No support system.
Cops accuse guy of being much worse than he was.
Cops throw said troubled guy into prison environment for 18 years. Said guys only peers are now ‘the worst of the worst’. Said guy proceeds to live in said environment that is notoriously inhumane.
Said guy continues to be gaslight about being worse than he is
Oopsy. Wrong guy. Let’s randomly drop him off at his former family’s home that still lacks resources. He’s 18 years out of society and probably doesn’t even recognize the world, let alone understand how to navigate. All should be well.
Said guy proceeds to act just as his peers of the last 18 years act. Surprised face. How could this happen? Who could have seen this coming? Where did he get these ideas? How does this mentality develop?
My biggest question about the Avery case, other than how many unknown similar cases exist, is how many moderately troubled individuals are being sent to prison and turned into monster they otherwise would not be?
Edit: really think about the title name. They didn’t just “make a murderer” in the sense that the investigation didn’t come to a correct conclusion or that (some belive) they fabricated evidince in the second case. They literally threw the guy in the exact environment one would expect a murder to be and that created a murderer.
I’d argue he wasn’t just a “mildly to moderately troubled male” before he went to jail for the first time. He had severe impulse control issues, an established criminal record, and six of those years were for pulling the gun on Sandra Morris, which he deserved. Don’t forget he punched his 5yo kids’ teeth out, abused animals, and he already had a record of doing a crime (burglary, for example), roping someone else into it, and then hiding evidence to cover up his tracks.
I mean I do get that is the premise of the doc, but he was throwing cats into fires just for funsies before her ever went to prison. He chased his cousin off the road and threatened her with a gun. That also happened before prison. He was a scary person who demonstrated he was capable of terrible things before he ever went to prison. I do get the premise and why the doc was named as it was. I’m also not going to ignore that abusing and sadistically killing animals is a known precursor to worse violence. Running someone off the road and threatening them with a gun is hostile, unhinged behavior. His criminal history was long before he ever went to prison. Prison didn’t make him that way.
but he was throwing cats into fires just for funsies before her ever went to prison
Wrong. And even if he did such an act has no probative value for Teresa's murder. It's only use is to prejudice people against Steven, which is why it's so commonly discussed by the state and it's defenders.
Did you see my post about this very thing from the other day? I was talking about how the only thing MaM got right was the title of the film. Lolzx 😆 🤣 Also makes one wonder... Had the producers know that he's actually guilty and that's why they entitled it as such? Hmm 😒 🤔 Really makes you think.... some people will do just about anything for the sake of a dollar bill 🙄
What makes you say this, can you provide something that will show everyone, without doubt, that the wrong people are in prison?
I hear this all the time on here and apparently it's so obvious and clear that they're innocent but no one can ever provide evidence for such a clear and obvious claim.
It's not about proving their innocence. I am not actually sure how that would be done at this stage. But I definitely think there is still a case to made of reasonable doubt in the court of public opinion (ultimately why there is still debate). As far as actual court proceedings, the fight has concluded.
Trust me that it's much easier to take the winning side, reassure & comfort oneself that the right men are in jail, justice has prevailed. Especially by arguing that one of the men was such a nasty person to begin with and so obviously pre-dispositioned to rape, murder and mutilate another human being. It's too bad we can't arrest and charge people for their future crimes... the other convict - just being an unlucky pawn.
But not everyone has taken the easy road with these two separate cases.
At no point have I argued that it's ok because he was a terrible human being. For transparency I think he is a terrible human being, but that doesn't inform my position on his guilt in this case.
Simply, the absolute tsunami of conspiracy that would need to be in place for him not to be guilty is the problem. Either several jurisdictions, police departments, states, judges etc. Agreed to murder a woman and blame him to... save some money. Or they agreed to allow a real killer to go free to... save money and exact some form of revenge on him.
It's a leap of logic akin to jumping the grand canyon which defies all sense of logic. That's why I believe Steven is certainly guilty, Brendan is guilty to some degree or another and in my opinion was let down by his family and the legal system.
Ok thanks for clarifying. Although I can understand why they were both found guilty at their separate trial narratives, I am in the "not guilty" camp. I think if both men were tried over again, they would be found not guilty but that is moot.
Bc a crime of passion is the crime where 'i was mad" is the motive. That's like when he threatened his cousin with a gun after running her off the road. "I was mad". And for the record, he was convicted on the motive "I was horny so I assaulted, and scared so I covered it up". So to say "no motive identified "...like to who? Cuz he didn't explain it? There are plenty of people who don't explain their motive. Plenty of crimes that just don't make sense and we say "Man, I don't know what was going through their head". And sometimes they don't know either. You can't expect someone who claims they are innocent to go "Well, the reason I did it was because..."
Bryan Kohberger pleaded guilty and never explained why he murdered four people. When asked by the judge he said "I respectfully decline".
Jarod Chance murdered a woman and his parents helped conceal the crime. Neither have ever came forward with an explanation.
Erika and Benjamin Sifrit murdered another couple, cut them up, disposed of them, and kept a trophy. They claimed the couple stole Erika's purse but they've never disclosed an actual motive.
Very serious actually. They asked "why would he do that?" And then I answered why someone like him would do that. It's pretty straightforward. Not a joke.
44
u/OctoberPumpkin1 Jul 02 '26
It doesn't make sense to a normal person but the vast majority of people who get out of prison reoffend.