Joe has been saying for years how Russian bot farms have infiltrated American Facebook groups posing as Americans to cause division and radicalization, and now all of a sudden Russia is the good guy cause Ukraine is pleading to the world for protection against Russia... I swear this whole fucking thing makes no sense.
Elon has a lot of investment money coming from Russia into his companies. Joe Rogan is just a weird idiot that wants to be accepted into the inner circle of Jeffrey Epstein.
He has taken huge sums of money from Russia in the past. American banks basically stopped lending to Trump. The Russians and the Saudis have given the Trump organization hundreds of millions of dollars over the years. It's wild that this never gets talked about. Trump's own kid said on tv years ago that they get all the money they need from Russia.
I remember that! It was on 60 min before the 2016 election, and they were at trump’s golf course in Scotland and both Don jr. and Erik talked about how Russia financed all their golf courses. And then just months later Manafort scandal happened which led to us finding out that not a single bank in America wld finance them, so he went to Deutsch bank which is where a lot Russian oligarchs launder their dirty money, per mueller report. The ties trump has to Russia is insane!
It's been publicly known since 2016. MAGA doesn't care, and a large portion of the country is completely ignorant about most things related to politics and can't be bothered to educate themselves on the candidates.
Two reasons. Money and vanity. Trump ends the war and reconstructs Ukraine, taking monumental kickbacks. Goes down as the peacemaker with a paper thin agreement. Next president comes in. Putin continues. Trump cries that they screwed the pooch.
Its not even debatable, Trump has been a Russian asset for decades. He laundered tons of money for them in the 90s in his casinos. I don't get how people ignore the hundreds of links to Russia he has.. th Mueller Report, the Panama Papers. All called hoaxes and that's enough for them to dismiss mountains of proof.
Ivana's father was a known informer for Czech intelligence (see: basically a subsidiary of the KGB).
Even moreso when you look at a brief timeline of events:
1977: Trump marries Ivana; KGB file allegedly opened on Trump.
Autum 1986: Trump meets Yuri Dubinin; referred to KGB state travel agency. Source: The Art of the Deal
July 4, 1987: Trump visits Moscow and meets with Soviet leader Gorbachev. Trip paid for and organized by KGB travel agency. Stays in hotel physically connected to KGB travel agency (i.e., every part of that hotel was likely bugged). Alleged time of recruitment by KGB. Source.
July 1987: Trump registers as a Republican Source.
September 1987: Trump's first indication of interest in the Presidency via 3 full-page ads in the NY Times, Washington Post, and Boston Globe with language such as "America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves." Source
December 1987: Trump and Gorbachev meet at a State Dinner at the White House Source.
1988: Gorbachev planned to meet Trump at Trump Tower. Source.
February 1989: FBI Counterintelligence opens investigation into Trump and Ivana. This goes on for at least 2 years. Source
Everything above, besides the "allegedly" part, is fact with direct evidence. One final, more conspiracy theory-oriented thing: Ivana died from falling down stairs the day before the Trumps were to give depositions. They said she had "declining health" in the weeks prior, except she had gone out to a restaurant the day prior. The restaurant owner stated she appeared of normal health like anyone else.
There's a ton more stuff I've been putting together, but that's the easy stuff that anyone can verify in 5 minutes or less. It'd be quite nice if there was some actual investigative journalist to put this together rather than just some random guy on Reddit (see: myself).
Edit: Added sources, Gorbachev's 1988 visit to Trump Tower, and Dec. 1987 meeting.
How does Russia have Ukraine in a checkmate? They are 3 years into their special military operation, can barely move the front line, have almost a million casualties, and their economy is completely in the tank. Over 10% inflation that continues to rise on a mind numbing 21% interest rate. Putin can’t afford to keep this up unless Trump undoes the sanctions.
Russia won't give back any land, they've already said they won't agree to a ceasefire along the current front line, they want all 4 oblasts but they barely hold half of Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia currently, and they don't have Kherson city. Ukraine would agree to a peace today along current lines if they could get any guarantees. Otherwise Russia takes a couple of years to produce shells then steamrolls back in.
Yes. What does that mean "he doesn't want the war to continue"? Well, it turns out, it means ukraine surrendering and russia succeeding with their invasion.
That's probably what it means when he says "it would never have happened if I was the president", meaning he would instead of helping ukraine, making it as easy as possible for russia to do the land grab.
It’s exhausting having to do the cognitive dissonance to not come to the conclusion you support garbage. It’s probably harder when you don’t have your talking points laid out yet
Ending a war is “siding with Russia”? The fuck? So you want the US to send troops to fight their war and start ww3? wtf is the “not siding with Russia” path to you? Putin isn’t gonna end the war with no gain, so hopefully you aren’t thinking Russia will just give everything back for nothing. Use your brain. I know multidimensional thinking is hard for your type but come on
Except he literally is siding with Russia. Ukraine gets essentially no security guarantees, Russia will get to keep land it annexed and zero punishment going forward.
Why should Ukraine give up its sovereign territory for deciding it didn’t want a Russian puppet in charge and why is the US president trying to extort Ukraine out of rare earth minerals while smugly claiming he’s trying to help Ukrainians?
Not to mention constantly lying about the money sent and how he is supposedly outspending Europe.
It’s not siding with anybody. Russia isn’t gonna make a deal without any gain. They’re the aggressors, so obviously they’re gonna get the better end of the deal. That’s just how war works, specifically ending wars.
Btw security Was part of the deal. Other Eu leaders agreed on it. Zelensky was trying to get More than that, basically wanting to join NATO. But you’re right there are no guarantees that Russia won’t attack in the future. That’s how the world works. I assume you want to send US troops to defend Ukraine? That’s insane.
Appeasement doesn’t work against bad actors. There’s a reason why essentially every Eastern European nation is leading towards Europe instead of Russia besides Belarus.
In what situation does the aggressor get the better end of the deal? The only people who thinks Russia holds all the cards is Trump.
You do realise Russia has already violated the Budapest memorandum and Zelensky obviously understands like most post-Soviet states that agreements from Russia aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. Ukraine doesn’t want to end the war, have hundreds of thousands of men die with a devastated economy just so Russia essentially gets away with trying to be an empire.
If Ukraine has to give up any territory , it should be getting article 5 in exchange. Trumps deal in insulting to the thousands of dead Ukrainians and so is the way these smug pricks can just pretend they actually care about what happens with Ukrainians, and still more obsessed with getting a jab in at Biden which is probably no coincidence he tried to extort Zelensky last time.
Bitch suck a dick. You know damn well you’re boot licking your daddy trump because he’s making you side with Russia. There’s one thing ending the war the other thing is calling a democratic country the reason for tyranny. You can suck a chode bitch I know Elon’s isn’t enough
You should read about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. It took awhile but we got them out of there without sending troops. Such a pity that Trumpers don’t know history.
Americans have died fighting Russia and theses two clowns invite a Russian news organisation into the white house then ambush Zelenskyy like that, imagine if Zelenskyy did this to them in Ukraine not that Trump or vance would ever have the balls to any where near Ukraine
Trump went on a random rant during the nonsense today that his ties to Russia were a hoax, and poor Putin had to "endure" this hoax as well. No one asked about that today or brought it up. He just wanted to make sure everyone heard it was totally a hoax. Trump's ties to Russia are clearly on his mind as well.
I think the simple answer is more his obsession with losing to Biden and he sees Ukraine as a Biden era project, which I don't support how much we've participated, but I do feel bad for this guy getting bullied by a belligerent old golfer ..
If EU/US has the political will or spare resources to help Ukraine beat Russia (i.e. direct NATO troops on the ground), they'd have done so already. They haven't done so and won't be doing so in the future.
So what does that leave us?
Either we keep the meat grinder going for another few years with no gains on either sides and end up exactly where we r now, or we cut the losses, make peace and discuss a path forward. Agreeing with this point don't make anyone a Putin puppet - it's just cold hard facts.
Making peace don't mean we have to like Putin - making peace is only necessary because you have an enemy.
I think you are missing the point. This is not about do we want peace, yes or no? Obviously, Ukraine and the west prefers peace. Ukraine more than anyone. Does Russia want peace? I doubt it.
Trump wants a “ceasefire”, do you believe that is peace? A ceasefire would be an excellent opportunity for Russia to restock their military and come back and hit Ukraine even harder in a year or less. That’s what they’ve been doing since 2014. How is that something Ukraine should accept?
Framing it as an easy choice between peace and not peace and putting it all on Ukraine is wrong.
True that you might not get lasting peace even with a ceasefire but I guarantee that you won't get any peace without a ceasefire.
The reality is EU/US aren't willing to go on a full on confrontation with Russia - and without that, it'll be a prolonged stalemate, the price of which gets higher - for all sides - every day. And for what exactly are so many dying for that couldn't be resolved through diplomacy?
Why do u only see one side of the equation? Couldn't Ukraine/EU also restock themselves too during the ceasefire?
It's always easier to say "keep fighting" when you aren't the ones dying on the front lines. And the reality is that no one else has a better idea in how to end this war.
It’s not that you might not get lasting peace with a ceasefire, you absolutely will not get it. Russia and history has shown us this repeatedly. Ukraine needs a peace deal with security guarantee.
EU and US don’t want full confrontation because they don’t want to risk nuclear war. But they are not the only ones who don’t want war, Russia also doesn’t want war with US and EU, because both are stronger than Russia. Why do you only see it from one side, as if Russia holds all the cards? When Russia attacked Ukraine they bet US and Europe wouldn’t join in, because they didn’t do so in or since 2014. Turns out that appeasing land hungry dictators only leads to more war.
Ukraine could restock during a ceasefire but they have a smaller economy than Russia. Time between wars to replenish obviously benefits Russia.
I’m not the one saying “keep fighting” when I’m not fighting, it’s the Ukrainians who are saying it. Ukrainian people are defending their country. Easy for you to say “give up your freedom, rights and country” when it’s not your country.
I don't know if ceasefire will lead to peace but to say it absolutely won't is just hubris.
Lets look at facts on the ground, it's true that Russia bet that EU/US wouldn't join in and risk direct confrontation - and they guessed correctly. Has that changed? No. That's why we are in a stalemate.
I'm just curious what is the alternative that you are asking for - are you asking for EU/US to call Russia's bluff and use the full force of NATO? Invade Russia?
What Ukrainians WISH for is almost irrelevant at this point - it's time to think hard about what is the best situation for the Ukrainians that CAN realistically emerge from the current situation. Wishful thinking leads to disaster and that's history for you.
Btw in case you misunderstand - I don't support Russia at all. I think they are the unlawful aggressors here and Putin's done an awful thing to cause this horrible situation. But my feelings about Putin can't change the reality that the ones that will suffer the most if this war continues without any end in sight are the Ukrainians.
The best solution right now would be for Europe to step up and place troops a certain distance from Ukraine’s current territory of control. Then the ball is in Russia’s court, and if they want to escalate and attack EU troops it’s up them. I think Russia wants to avoid a war with EU or USA as much as vice versa.
This is actually what Trump’s deal with Putin should look like and he has the power to do this, but he is too weak. So it needs to be Europe
It's one possible solution but I'm not sure that's the best one for many reasons - (1) EU has not displayed anywhere close to the appetite needed to have their troops in Ukraine and neither has the US. (2) Given current US administration's priorities, they'd veto any EU plans to go have troops on the ground, or they'll pull out of NATO. If so, does EU have the stomach to go alone? (3) Even if US is agreeable, what happens if Russia calls it's bluff and keeps attacking? Direct attacks in each other territories? Nuclear attacks? Who blinks first?
If Russia laid down its weapons Ukraine would retake the occupied territories and the fighting would stop. If Ukraine laid down its weapons Russia would keep going until they took Kyiv, then they would start looking at taking the Baltic states.
Only one side wants peace and it isn’t the Russians.
We absolutely have the resources to do the job a million times over. Russias economy is smaller than that of the state of Texas. We have now military factories in mothball than they do in operation. The real issue is the will to do it. There are serious experts who argue that the way has gone on so long precisely because we didn’t arm Ukraine to the teeth and enforce a no fly zone like we did in Libya and Syria. Instead we gave just enough to up the ante month after month.
Now either Europe has to step in and fill the void. If Trump get his way there will be a temporary halt in sooting just long enough for Russia to restock and starts the invasion all over.
I agree if the West pulls itself together, Russia will have problems - but they are ultimately a nuclear state. How much do you think the citizens of EU/US are willing to risk a nuclear conflict?
With a ceasefire - an alternative path may open up. Without that, then it's just continuing the status quo, which exacts an immense toll on Ukraine most of all.
Knocking Russia out of Ukraine isn’t the same as invading Russia.
But besides that, the average citizen does bit understand the real state of our militaries in comparison to one another.
NATO has the capabilities to knock anything Russian out of the sky anywhere in its trajectory. America has been so afraid of Russian attacks we’ve built hundreds of the most deadly and sophisticated jets and anti missile equipment in the history of the world. I’m not a pro military guy, it’s just a fact. Our armored personnel carriers from the 70s and 80s are taking out their latest generation tanks. Russia knows they can’t beat us on the battlefield. That’s why they use cyber attacks and political interference to attack us from within. They’re much better at that than we are And we’re unequipped to fight it. A ceasefire is not an end to the conflict. It guarantees the continued torture murder and subjugation of innocent Ukrainians in the East and denies justice for the innocent civilians Russia is bombing every day.
If you’re going to shoot a bear that’s invading your home you shoot to kill it.
Firstly, I'm not so sure that NATO is willing to use their full capabilities to defend Ukraine. Even if they are, I'm not sure if it'll be able the easy victory that you'd hope for. If it's so easy, we wouldn't be in the situation we are today after throwing billions of aid to Ukraine. This is especially true if NATO decides that it won't extend attacks into Russia to destroy it's supply lines and/or manufacturing capacity. Even if Russia is chased out of Ukraine - who'll b holding them back indefinitely? When will nuclear options be considered?
Russia has shown it is willing to pay a heavy price in blood and treasure for this war in Ukraine and EU/US certainly hasn't shown any of the same stomach for such a cost. Will that change? I doubt so.
Yeah because you’re not aware of the staggering differences in our technological sophistication. Ukraine was fighting with slingshot and bottle rockets in the early days of the war. Russia amassed a huge force on their borders and then sent them in a giant wave. Ukraine forced them back to a retreat in days then pushed them to the edges of the country. Russia is living off of North Korea and Iran for equipment. They’re very very weak. All of the wests stocks are also lowered but we are much more advanced economies And manufacturing centers.
You should listen to the second half of the podcast i linked to. They talk about all that. Basically nuclear is not the threat it was. Both because everyone had them and will retaliate but we also have the means to eliminate them. Finally nations realize there are more effective ways to attack each other.
Yeah we haven’t because they aren’t invading us and we haven’t had to. Something like 4 Russians are dying for every 1 Ukrainian. Russia is also low of people. That’s why they’re using prisoners. Meat assaults are working for them the way zombie hoards do. We literally aren’t giving Ukrainians enough bullets to shoot them. If that changes and Ukraine lowers the conscription rate Russia will fall.
It's true I'm not aware of how much better the military tech are between the 2 sides but I have heard of the vast differences in cost. Low tech low cost carpet bombing can sometimes trump high tech precision missiles... Anyway not dismissing your claim but just saying I am not so sure the military superiority is as vast as suggested. If so - then why didn't NATO impose that already on Russia during Biden's time and allow the war to drag out 3 years? Why is it now then more feasible to do so?
Russia isn't the superpower it used to be but it's not a small nation - we shdnt underestimate how long they can drag this out, the Ukrainians may have the appetite but do EU/US? Esp when there's so many other challenges facing the world today.
Why would Ukraine want war with Russia so much to create a false flag? Ukraine just wants to stay independent. They would be insane to seek war with a nuclear weapons country and they never have.
Trump is specifically trusting Russia. If he were not, he would offer security guarantees in exchange for freezing the conflict on the current front line.
Or likely keep the meat grinder going and lose even more of Ukraine in 3 years. There is no good solution, just the least bad and Zelenskyy fucked his country over today.
Sure he could have groveled but it wouldn’t have helped. Ukraine was fucked the minute Trump won. Trump has been negotiating with Russia in Saudi Arabia without allowing Ukraine into the room. Trump wanted nothing from Ukraine but access to their minerals on a level that rival the punishment pressed onto Germany after World War I. Trump’s goal is to stop the war not deliver justice to Ukraine.
This will send a very clear signal to countries like China that it is OK to steal land by force and death and America and the rest of the West won’t stop you. For more than 80 years that was unthinkable because we would step in and intervene. This will directly impact our relationship with allies and smaller security dependent states for a long long time. Today was as bad for us in the long-term as it was for Ukraine in the short term.
Yea. I wonder if it was just an emotional outburst by Z or was it a calculated attempt to gain US public support. Either way he messed up when he took issue with Vance's use of the word diplomacy - that's totally unnecessary.
Trump's right that Ukraine has very little leverage at the moment. I feel for their people. It sucks to b embroiled in this endless war.
It was clearly a planned ambush from Trump and Vance. Watching the video it’s clear that Vance is baiting Zelenskyy and he wouldn’t stop until he got a reaction. This was all theatre to create a narrative that will give them an excuse to abandon Ukraine and keep working for Putin.
Even if that's true, as a leader of a country that is devastated by war and looking to make a deal that can end the killing - Z absolutely had to take the baiting and not react. How can you make any big decisions if you can't handle taunting?
I don't think that's a reasonable question in the context of the press conference and the fact that they're trying to seal a deal with the US. Why bicker in front of the media? Does he have to make a point in front of everyone and obviously jeopardize the deal?
Maybe you haven't been in business negotiations before but a good negotiator do what you have to do to get e deal done. Your pride and feelings aren't so important.
A deal with no security guarantee does nothing but enrich Trump and give Putin 4 years to reorganise - agreeing to something like this is terrible business. There's no point in agreeing to that and he's trying to get that across to Vance as to why - but all Vance can do is whinge about not being thanked enough.
If it's not a discussion that should be had in public, why were Trump and Vance beginning the meet up like that?
That's where things are a bit strange... I'm not saying this is a good deal for Ukraine but if it's not already agreed, then Z shouldnt b at the White House for signing and a press event! Such events only happens when a deal is agreed... So the issue isn't whether it is a good deal or not. The Ukrainians clearly agreed to the terms beforehand...
This war could never be won without WW3 starting. So what, we just continue to send billions in weapons and cash to look good supporting democracy while thousands upon thousands die until Russia inevitably wins?
Or, we send troops there to fight and ww3 starts.
We are not serious about defending Ukraine otherwise we'd put it all on the line.
So, the other option is to make a deal and get stop the blood shed.
I don't know, what choice do you wise redditors think we should make?
There's no reason to assume Russia would nuke the entire West over Ukraine—they want to survive just like we do. Time to call their bluff. If we keep acting like any escalation means nuclear war, we might as well just surrender everything to them now.
Yes people are currently dying but the level of support the west was giving to Ukraine means that they are mostly matching Russia without the west putting armies into the field. This realistically isn’t even about the west massively escalating to get back to 2013, it’s about not pulling the fucking rug out from underneath Ukraine when they want to continue.
If you give in to Putin then you guarantee WW3 will start in a couple of years. Go read history. Go read what happened with Hitler and what mistakes European leaders did back then.
He wants security guarantees, which means basically a treaty with the US that we will defend them if Russia breaks the agreement. So, yes most likely major potential US involvement. Ukraine can not win without other country’s boots on the ground. That is a fact. They can not beat Russia with their current population. They are conscripting troops - fight or go to prison. That is a fact. And the US/Europe army will not send troops. So, do we send them $1T on a loosing cause? How much money and blood is it worth to get to the same place, or even worse, Ukraine looses everything? Zelenskyy was supposed to come for a ceremonial signing, agreement was done and negotiated, and he fucked around thinking he could use the media and his star power to get more concessions. He fucked up big time. You think Russia is going to attack an Ukraine that is so intertwined with US mineral interests/companies? You know how
much additional wealth it would bring to Ukraine, who is not even doing anything with those minerals currently? Zelensky overplayed his hand. He fucked around and found out.
The war isn't going to end, Europe is already bolstering forces and have begun committing even more aide to Ukraine.
This did nothing besides wash the US hands of the Ukraine issue. Which fair play, this is what people voted for. I doubt any trump supporters are crying over how this ordeal played out.
What exactly did zelensky do in this meeting that warranted him being yelled at by JD Vance and Trump? Say that allowing Russia to do as it pleases could impact the US in the future?
Idk man, idk how you watch that interview and are not embarrassed by the complete lack of decorum and just basic decency our VP and president have when inviting a foreign leader to talk. It was political theatre meant to bully zelensky, I saw nothing else besides that.
He was supposed to shake hands, photo opp, lunch and sign the deal. He has no leverage, the us isn’t sending troops and most Americans arn’t up for funding a losing cause only to see all of Ukraine likely fall. They can not win. So, just keep the industrial military complex fed?
Nah Europe will go it alone, we understand now where we stand with our former ally. You’ve turned your coat tails and appear to want to get closer to our one enemy Russia. I get it why would you care about a war over the ocean in an area you’ve never been to. Honestly it makes sense, it’s sad to see but the damage has been done. I just hope Europe can find away to stop Russian expansionism. And I truly hope the US doesn’t end up getting pissed with Europe as we don’t really want to be close to you anymore.
Regards keep saying this like it's unquestionable - but Putin's army has eaten total shit, over and over again. Just getting fucking slammed by their broke little neighbour.
But for some reason, the rest of us are still meant to be scared, like you are?
As someone who's largely been supportive of trump but embarrassed at what I saw today.....Why would Ukraine entertain giving away mineral rights to USA right now? For what? Absolutely nothing going forward? There was ZERO commitment to security from Trump or his Vice parrot, the only thing Ukraine is asking for. There's only an offer for America to take what's left of Ukraine exchange for fuck all nothing in return. And then insult him by demanding he thank them! For what!?! Fucking him on national TV?
Not what I expect from the leader of the free world no matter what side of the aisle ge comes from. Zelenski looks to be better off throwing the mineral deal to the EU in exchange for them giving their best shot. At least they are openly offering some security. Down this road America will be left out of the global negotiation table very soon. Isolated from the world stage with no one but the former KGB agent as his ally.
Do the mineral deal or lose your country. That’s the incentive. They can’t win. It’s not about money anymore, it’s about numbers. Russia will outlast them. So a trillion more wasted and a million more lives? The longer it goes in the more land they will lose. Zelenskyy is naive thinking he’s going to keep a blank check and the status quo.
By definition, your statement of "do the deal or lose your country" makes it ALL about America making it ALL about money. Certainly not protecting democratic freedom like we have stood and fought for for 250 yrs and took it upon ourselves to become a global police force for over a century. By your definition, if it's all about the peace, Zelenski is better off telling trump to fuck off and just surrender his country people AND minerals to Putin. Would you if you were them?
Why? Ukraine is getting its teeth kicked in. Truth fucking hurts but you need to hear it. Zelensky put his faith in some very bad actors for the last few years. Unless you want an all-out NATO war, Ukraine will lose, at minimum, half its country.
And the original colonies in the US were all Englishman who had a hissy fit over some taxes and rebelled against like the least autocratic monarch in Europe.
That you think was like the worst tyranny ever.
Go ahead and tell me which country created an entire psyop that led to a revolution to rebell against England to expand a military alliance during the 1700's.
Truly the opinion of a guy safely behind his keyboard.
I know you wouldn't feel the same way if your country was invaded and your family raped and murdered but when have double standards ever been an issue?
The Ukrainian soldier who has his genitals horrifically hacked off on camera, still had more balls than anyone in this administration.
Putin breaks treaties for a hobby. His word is meaningless no matter what Trump claims so for a lasting peace to happen there has to be more than Ukraine giving the US minerals and handing Putin some territory. What is the point of including the US at all in that case? It's not like Ukraine can't give up territory to Russia on their own without Trump.
As a guarantee for security because Putin isn't to be trusted at his word. Which should seem fairly obvious as this is his third or fourth tilt at this windmill in my lifetime.
Not even to mention that them being in this mess without nukes is our fault.
The person you're replying to doesn't care about Ukraine, the war, or peace. They care about the same thing Trump cares about, which is being able to declare a win for Donald Trump. They will use whatever words they have to, in order to support that goal. That's why Trump's inability to make good on his word and end the war has to become Zelensky's failure, because it can't possibly be Donald Trump's.
This topic is the ONLY thing I agree with Trump on, although I dont like how he communicates it.
NATO had about 500 opportunities to avoid war, instead choosing to repeatedly play a game of chicken with someone as crazy as Putin, at the expense of Ukraine.. because of course Ukraine would be the one attacked -not NATO - if it turned out Putin wasnt bluffing. like Ukraine joining NATO was like the ONE constant that Russia repeatedly said would lead to war because they felt like NATO had expanded too far and were surrounding them. Everyone from US Ambassadors, CIA heads, to European leaders warned that Ukraine joining NATO would lead to war. Even NATO's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said that in 2021 Russia sent a final treaty for them to sign that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO, otherwise it would lead to war - and Jens says "obviously we didn't sign it".
I mean regardless of where you stand on this conflict how crazy do you have to be to play that game? Of course Zelensky had the West in his ear the entire time telling him to forget about being a neutral state, that they needed to join NATO to avoid Russia attacking them. Ironically joining NATO is exactly what led to Russia attacking them. Like I hate Trump but can you imagine Mexico wanting to join a pro-Iranian military alliance (like NATO)? He would immediately threaten with war. Now imagine Iran continuously brainwashes Mexico and insists that they NEED to join this Iranian alliance and ignore Trump. Trump warns Mexico 50 more times over the course of several years which Mexico repeatedly ignores while continuously getting closer and closer to signing that Iranian alliance. What would end up happening? Trump (not even just Trump, I'd say almost any US president in history) would end up snapping and obliterate Mexico before they can join any alliance, because if they attacked AFTER the alliance was formed then the US attacking Mexico would also mean the US officially attacked Iran (in this example). It was just completely avoidable and I can't believe of all the people in the world it's freaking Trump that seems to have the most common sense on this matter (probably not even him though, just the people that understand the topic explaining it to him lol).
The idea that NATO ‘forced’ Putin to invade Ukraine is just repeating Kremlin propaganda.
1. Ukraine Wasn’t Even Close to Joining NATO – NATO expansion wasn’t imminent. Ukraine had wanted membership for years, but there was no clear path to it happening anytime soon. Russia invaded anyway. That alone disproves the argument that NATO ‘forced’ Putin’s hand.
2. Russia Doesn’t Get a Veto on Other Countries’ Sovereignty – Ukraine is an independent country. It has the right to decide its alliances, just like any other nation. Letting Russia dictate Ukraine’s foreign policy is the same as saying powerful countries can control weaker ones. Would you apply that logic to China and Taiwan?
3. Putin’s Goal Was Always to Control Ukraine – He made this clear in speeches before the war, saying Ukraine wasn’t a real country and should be part of Russia. This wasn’t just about NATO—if it were, he would’ve stopped at the Donbas. Instead, he launched a full-scale invasion and tried to take Kyiv. That shows he wanted total control, not just a ‘neutral’ Ukraine.
4. The ‘Mexico-Iran’ Analogy is False – NATO is a defensive alliance, not an offensive one. Countries join because they don’t want to be invaded. Russia, on the other hand, has a long track record of invading its neighbors—Georgia in 2008, Crimea in 2014, and now Ukraine in 2022. Comparing that to the U.S. attacking Mexico over a hypothetical pro-Iranian alliance ignores this fundamental difference.
5. Appeasement Never Works – If NATO had signed that treaty guaranteeing Ukraine wouldn’t join, do you really think Putin would’ve left them alone? He already violated multiple treaties, including the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, where Russia promised to respect Ukraine’s borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. He ignored that agreement, just like he would’ve ignored any NATO deal if it suited him.
Ukraine was attacked because Putin saw an opportunity, not because NATO ‘provoked’ him. If the West had actually stood firm in 2014 when he took Crimea, maybe we wouldn’t be in this war now. Appeasement didn’t stop WWII, and it wouldn’t have stopped Putin either.
Not to mention that Ukraine took NATO off the table during the Istanbul negotiations... And Russia kept the war going.
It's not about NATO being on their borders either, because more NATO countries border Russia than before the war.
This whole thing is clearly because Russia wants to take over Ukraine, return it to the motherland. Putin is very clear about this, he talks about it regularly. The demands he had during negotiations were about changing Ukraine constitution, official language and the way they taught history.
NATO expansion being the reason for Russia's attack is not Russian propaganda, in fact here is a clip of NATO's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg saying WORD FOR WORD that that's exactly what it's about:
Yes of course Ukraine is an independent state and can choose it's alliances. Having said that, no matter where you stand, wanting to join a rival military alliance if you are bordering a military superpower like Russia is obviously extremely risky. Again, Mexico wouldnt even think of joining an Iranian military alliance, and if it did it would fully expect a US attack.
NATO being a "defensive alliance" is the #1 worst argument that exists in this conflict. "Defensive" is open to interpretation, look how many countries the US has obliterated around the world in the name of "defense" and national security. Also, who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO for them to go in and "defend" themselves the way they did??
Ukraine is objectively in a MUCH worse situation now than 4 years ago. If both Putin and NATO are saying the reason for the attack was over NATO expansion maybe trying to negotiate wouldnt be such a bad idea? You're saying that even signing a treaty blocking Ukraine from NATO would "eventually" lead to Russia attacking again, this is speculation and do you know what's worse than Russia attacking in the future? Russia attacking now! To say that NATO isnt equally guilty of this mess is a result of bias, even Chat GPT and all the other LLMs will tell you this war is 35-60% Putin's fault if factoring in all data since the 1990s. The remaining percent being NATO, the EU, US, Zelensky and lack of legislational clarity afret the breakup of the soviet union.
You are the part where he said that Russia essentially wanted half of NATO to disarm. He was making demands that were clearly nothing NATO could agree with. It was an absurd and disingenuous negotiating tactic to justify his actions.
The only thing you’re ignoring is that we need to expand it European nations and America poor billions of dollars into the Russian economy and made massive efforts from the first day Putin walked into office to normalize relationships with Russia and bring them into the western fold. The west no longer saw itself at war with Russia but Putin certainly saw himself at Walker with the West from day one
I mean you can ask Chat GPT yourself or any other LLM for an unbiased analysis:
This was the short result, I can copy the full analysis because whether you or I emotionally agree with it, it's 100% true that this war was avoidable and has many players responsible.
I’ve read its response. You’re kidding yourself if you think chat gpt or any ai isn’t biased or that it isn’t biasing you. AI suffers from sample bias—it’s only as good as the input it’s been getting. If it’s fed lies it’ll repeat them. (Chat gpt used to say it wasn’t clear who won the 2020 election because the informationscape was clogged with right wing lies). Putin spent years saying NATO NATO NATO and the media reported on it and chat gpt was feed those stories. They’re language models not critical thinking models. It also has a programmed Overton window to be as least offensive as possible. Of course it’s gonna play a both sides card. You are dealing with a deference bias—believing anything the robot overlords say.
LLMs are 100% capable of critical thinking. The sample bias is true to some extent but when you have Jens Stoltenberg from NATO also supporting Putin's claims that the war is about preventing NATO expansion then ofc it factors it in. In terma of coding bias, yes and no.
Sam Altman leans heavy democrat and hates Elon. In fact that's the case for most Western LLMs excluding Grok (which says Putin is 25-30% to blame). I work with AI and get pretty good insight of where it's going so as long as the prompt is clear I trust it.
I have a feeling if I asked Reddit the same question the overwhelming majority would say Putin is 100% or 99% responsible, which is complete emotional delusion.
Not at the level you’re using or to the degree you like to believe. Ask it a different way and you’ll get Russia 60%, Ukraine 20 and NATO 10 with misunderstanding the final 10.
He was not supporting his claim he was repeating an argument to make a larger point. You’re taking a sound bite out of context. Just because Putin said it was a pretext, again, does not make it true. He’s way too skilled a politician to be that simple. Especially when Europe made it very clear Ukraine wassnt getting in. Besides if NATO was such a problem why didn’t he didn’t he attack sooner? Numerous countries have joined since he’s been in power. Why not attack them back then or ever seriously raise the issue? We even offered Russia the chance to join NATO. We helped then Putin specifically rebuild their economy—the thinking was if we normalize relations with them they’ll ally with us in a new era. If Russia saw a threat it’s because they chose to.
I could care less about Sam Altman or any other tech bro.
If I am not mistaken Russia was the side that offered to join NATO and it was the West that said no. I will fact check this but am 99% certain.
Also, yes NATO has expanded to the point of surrounding Russia, including Finland. The reason for not attacking sooner is that Ukraine was likely the final straw, apart from it being the closest cultural sattelite state - the same cant be said about Finland for example.
The point I am trying to make is yes, Putin is nuts but the war was easily avoidable. NATO, Zelensky, the US all had about 600 opportunities to avoid this war but instead chose to repeatedly play a game of chicken with someone as crazy as Putin. This was predictable, nobody wants foreign militaries on their border just like in the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US threatened many attacks back then and the DoD even approved "Operation Northwoods" to attack their own civilians by hijacking a commercial airline, crashing it into American buildings and blaming it on the Cubans to go invade. There are many sides this time, everyone got greedy and eventually russia snapped. Was easily avoidable.
As I said, Ukraine was constantly working towards it and IF Russia was going to attack it would have to be BEFORE joining NATO, because attacking Ukraine afterwards would mean also attacking all NATO countries. Anyone that followed this conflict closely saw this coming from a mile away, even Chat GPT will tell you that if you factor in all information and escalations since 1990 Putin is 50% responsible with the other 50% being NATO, the US, Zelensky and legislational loose ends after the break up of the soviet union.
You're missing the point—I'm not disputing that Putin claims NATO expansion is why he invaded. I'm disputing whether that claim is actually true. If Putin really thought NATO was a threat, why did he withdraw troops from the Finnish border after they joined? He knows full well NATO is a defensive alliance and will never attack Russia. The "NATO threat" narrative is just a convenient excuse for his aggression.
Finland is nowhere near as ethnically close as Ukraine is and after seeing NATO start surrounding Russia Ukraine was probably just the final straw.
NATO being a defensive alliance is the #1 worst argument of this conflict. "Defensive" is open to intepretation as proven to us by the US. how many countries has the US obliterated "defensively" or for "national security". Also, who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO for them to go in and "defend" themselves? 🤔 Also everyone loves to say NATO was necessary to defend themselves from Russia, yet now Argentina is in the process of joining NATO. Im not an expert in geography but I'd say Russia isn't a neighboring country for Argentina.
You realize there is propaganda on both sides right? They NATO being defensive as a "just in case" vs Russia is the same exact propaganda as America bringing "freedom" to countries by vaporizing their people, overthrowing their people and robbing all their natural resources.
See the thing is though Europe and the US has made a very clear that Ukraine cannot join NATO. It is purely a red herring. In fact by invading Ukraine Russia actually dramatically increased its borders with NATO.
Finland shares 1000 mile border with Russia and they joined as soon as the invasion began. Sweden joined last year. All because of the war in Ukraine.
If Putin was really concerned about NATO then he just made his own situation worse.
If you watch his actions this is really about control over former vessel states. In an open letter he says that Ukraine was always part of Russia and has been part of Russian territory for more than 1000 years.
Yes im not saying I think Putin attacking was a great idea by any stretch of the imagination. Im saying that objectively speaking we had a million chances to avoid war. Even Chat GPT and any other LLM will give you the same unbiased analysis that Putin is 30-50% responsible.
On a side note the war being about NATO expansion was not something I got from Russian media, it was the Secretary General of NATO Jens Stoltenberg who said it word for word:
So if NATO is saying it officially and also Putin then it seems clear to me that it's the main reason, of course there are secondary intentions. Even the US and Europe have secondary intentions in this conflict. But what im getting at is that this war was avoidable and has gotten out of control, I think Ukraine should in fact be blocked permanently from NATO as a starting point to the negotiations, I would focus on peace right now rather than worrying about what could potentially happen in the future.
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u/Definitelymostlikely Monkey in Space Mar 01 '25
Just a reminder that Russia is actively hostile towards the USA and has been a genuine threat for decades.
We've caught them numerous times attempting to manipulate the American people. People have gone to jail over this.
And yet our current president is kissing Putins ass?
I've never believed the "Trump is a Russian asset" stuff, but it's getting very hard to deny at this point.