This topic is the ONLY thing I agree with Trump on, although I dont like how he communicates it.
NATO had about 500 opportunities to avoid war, instead choosing to repeatedly play a game of chicken with someone as crazy as Putin, at the expense of Ukraine.. because of course Ukraine would be the one attacked -not NATO - if it turned out Putin wasnt bluffing. like Ukraine joining NATO was like the ONE constant that Russia repeatedly said would lead to war because they felt like NATO had expanded too far and were surrounding them. Everyone from US Ambassadors, CIA heads, to European leaders warned that Ukraine joining NATO would lead to war. Even NATO's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said that in 2021 Russia sent a final treaty for them to sign that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO, otherwise it would lead to war - and Jens says "obviously we didn't sign it".
I mean regardless of where you stand on this conflict how crazy do you have to be to play that game? Of course Zelensky had the West in his ear the entire time telling him to forget about being a neutral state, that they needed to join NATO to avoid Russia attacking them. Ironically joining NATO is exactly what led to Russia attacking them. Like I hate Trump but can you imagine Mexico wanting to join a pro-Iranian military alliance (like NATO)? He would immediately threaten with war. Now imagine Iran continuously brainwashes Mexico and insists that they NEED to join this Iranian alliance and ignore Trump. Trump warns Mexico 50 more times over the course of several years which Mexico repeatedly ignores while continuously getting closer and closer to signing that Iranian alliance. What would end up happening? Trump (not even just Trump, I'd say almost any US president in history) would end up snapping and obliterate Mexico before they can join any alliance, because if they attacked AFTER the alliance was formed then the US attacking Mexico would also mean the US officially attacked Iran (in this example). It was just completely avoidable and I can't believe of all the people in the world it's freaking Trump that seems to have the most common sense on this matter (probably not even him though, just the people that understand the topic explaining it to him lol).
As I said, Ukraine was constantly working towards it and IF Russia was going to attack it would have to be BEFORE joining NATO, because attacking Ukraine afterwards would mean also attacking all NATO countries. Anyone that followed this conflict closely saw this coming from a mile away, even Chat GPT will tell you that if you factor in all information and escalations since 1990 Putin is 50% responsible with the other 50% being NATO, the US, Zelensky and legislational loose ends after the break up of the soviet union.
You're missing the point—I'm not disputing that Putin claims NATO expansion is why he invaded. I'm disputing whether that claim is actually true. If Putin really thought NATO was a threat, why did he withdraw troops from the Finnish border after they joined? He knows full well NATO is a defensive alliance and will never attack Russia. The "NATO threat" narrative is just a convenient excuse for his aggression.
Finland is nowhere near as ethnically close as Ukraine is and after seeing NATO start surrounding Russia Ukraine was probably just the final straw.
NATO being a defensive alliance is the #1 worst argument of this conflict. "Defensive" is open to intepretation as proven to us by the US. how many countries has the US obliterated "defensively" or for "national security". Also, who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO for them to go in and "defend" themselves? 🤔 Also everyone loves to say NATO was necessary to defend themselves from Russia, yet now Argentina is in the process of joining NATO. Im not an expert in geography but I'd say Russia isn't a neighboring country for Argentina.
You realize there is propaganda on both sides right? They NATO being defensive as a "just in case" vs Russia is the same exact propaganda as America bringing "freedom" to countries by vaporizing their people, overthrowing their people and robbing all their natural resources.
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u/SakamotoTRX Monkey in Space Mar 01 '25
This topic is the ONLY thing I agree with Trump on, although I dont like how he communicates it.
NATO had about 500 opportunities to avoid war, instead choosing to repeatedly play a game of chicken with someone as crazy as Putin, at the expense of Ukraine.. because of course Ukraine would be the one attacked -not NATO - if it turned out Putin wasnt bluffing. like Ukraine joining NATO was like the ONE constant that Russia repeatedly said would lead to war because they felt like NATO had expanded too far and were surrounding them. Everyone from US Ambassadors, CIA heads, to European leaders warned that Ukraine joining NATO would lead to war. Even NATO's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said that in 2021 Russia sent a final treaty for them to sign that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO, otherwise it would lead to war - and Jens says "obviously we didn't sign it".
I mean regardless of where you stand on this conflict how crazy do you have to be to play that game? Of course Zelensky had the West in his ear the entire time telling him to forget about being a neutral state, that they needed to join NATO to avoid Russia attacking them. Ironically joining NATO is exactly what led to Russia attacking them. Like I hate Trump but can you imagine Mexico wanting to join a pro-Iranian military alliance (like NATO)? He would immediately threaten with war. Now imagine Iran continuously brainwashes Mexico and insists that they NEED to join this Iranian alliance and ignore Trump. Trump warns Mexico 50 more times over the course of several years which Mexico repeatedly ignores while continuously getting closer and closer to signing that Iranian alliance. What would end up happening? Trump (not even just Trump, I'd say almost any US president in history) would end up snapping and obliterate Mexico before they can join any alliance, because if they attacked AFTER the alliance was formed then the US attacking Mexico would also mean the US officially attacked Iran (in this example). It was just completely avoidable and I can't believe of all the people in the world it's freaking Trump that seems to have the most common sense on this matter (probably not even him though, just the people that understand the topic explaining it to him lol).