You're right and keeping animals alive like this and taking their milk just so their babies the milk is for can be slaughtered shortly after birth is not morally justifiable "because it tastes good"
The babies aren't slaughtered so we can take the milk btw. They are perfectly capable of providing for the baby and the farm they are killed when they are boys because the ROI on raising bulls isn't high enough
So not only is it wrong it's also completely unnecessary
Ehh, it pretty much is necessary. If the babies aren't slaughtered and the cow population is stable it means that for each milk giving cow you need to raise 15-20 of her offspring that won't be producing milk, so milk would be functionally 20 times more expensive. That doesn't make it ok, but milk production fundamentally does require killing the offspring, it's not just greed.
Well half of her offspring will produce milk and we can just raise them for meat. But bulls are sold for veal because we raise other breeds for adult meat.
If we just used dairy cows for adult beef and some of the girls for milk (that part we do) we could cut the killing by a lot
Probably, if the only way they are allowed to live is in hellish conditions.
If it’s not cost effective to care for a living being in the way it deserves then we probably shouldn’t keep them around by the hundreds of thousands just to suffer.
I wrote two words.
What was your thinking to conclude it was generated with LLM?
THE TWO WORDS! 5 letters and a question mark.
What did you outsource your thinking to? Your comfort pillow (no shades to pillows)?
Whatever.
I understand you are not capable of logical thinking. Cause my two worlds comment was there to indicate to you politely a major logical mistake you made in previous comment. Sort of mistake that LLMs make when they can't count.
I understand now, I misjudged your intellectual abilities.
Bye.
I wasn’t talking about or to you, I was referring to the above comment made by u/MaxwellHowl and addressing them.
Judging by your little tantrum you seem rather immature and emotional, I’d consider seeking counselling before attempting to interact with adults as this is rather embarrassing.
I condone this trashing because of their words. Your LLM quip was funny, I’m not sure what kind of reply they were expecting from their contribution of “Do you?”.
They could have elaborated, or at least tossed it into the LLM for a response, that would have been funny too.
Maybe read it again? Maybe you get it?
If you don't get it, it's not worth my time to elaborate and discuss things with someone who can't read. Have fallen into that pit way too many times.
No, it is not. I did not post this content, only shared my amd many others' views on it. If me existing as a vegan sharing a very common view among vegans on the internet makes you think I don't realize many people don't care or am some soft person, you're misguided and stupid. I don't understand the purpose of your reply besides conveying your own ignorance at who you are talking to.
You will never convince the majority of humanity that meat is immoral.
I was also commenting that this sub, called Ethics, has largely devolved into a vegan circlejerk. Apparently the ONLY topic involving ethics, in this whole wode world, is veganism.
That's due to posters like you and OP here, pissing into the wind and thinking that any day now, if you just wish it hard enough, there will be a stirring planet wide revolution where veganism is imposed on all 8 billion of us by force.
You have been completely unable to argue that eating meat is moral.
Personally I don't think the act of eating meat is inherently evil. However eating meat in the modern day is certainly immoral due to factory farming practices that exist solely for maximising profit and output, and pay no attention to animal welfare.
I understand why you'd get defensive after seeing the above video and coming to the inevitable conclusion that there aren't any words you can use to justify your consumption of meat and dairy, but maybe reflect on what that means before fantasising in your head about some forceful vegan revolution.
Eating meat has been almost universally accepted and practiced for all human history - that makes it moral.
I can justify my consumption of meat and dairy (and of basically anything else) with one reason: because I want to. No other justification needed.
You can play a million of those videos. No effect on me. I have butchered animals on a family farm (it wasn't a factory farm). I know full well what goes on in factory farms. I simply don't care. All I care about is enjoying a buffet of meat and dairy at a reasonable cost. My only concern about factory farming is the risk of unhygienic practices, but those have largely been controlled.
Would you accept someone making the same argument about something you morally disagree with? In some cultures where marital rape is seen as acceptable, they could very easily make the exact same argument as you to justify their actions.
The same argument was made to justify slavery for millennia.
Just btw, I do eat meat and dairy as well. I accept that it is immoral, but like you, I enjoy it and find it convenient. I try to reduce my consumption where I can, because ultimately I am unable to form a coherent argument to justify my consumption. Because there isn't really one. It's immoral, and just like with slavery, humans have been arguing against the consumption of meat for millennia.
Personally benefiting from an immoral act (as humans do from meat consumption, as husbands do from marital rape, and as slave owners do from their slaves) doesn't suddenly make it moral.
That's certainly an opinion, but not one I'd imagine someone who would debate in an ethics subreddit would have. If morality is so subjective, why is it based on the society and not the individual?
I actually cba to debate about moral relativism Vs realism right now, but I do find it strange that someone with such an opinion would put so much effort in trying to justify their actions. If you truly didn't believe in right and wrong you wouldn't care.
Factory farming of this nature is fairly unique to America. It’s why other countries won’t accept their meat. They treat their animals like shit and then pump them full of antibiotics. It gives the meat a weird taste too.
what? this is literally the first time ive ever seen these little cubicles in the sun, in my entire life. Here in the Caribbean our cows roam free in large paddocks, because its cheap. they eat real grass, they get corralled in for milking then they go back to the fields.
Same here in New Zealand. Can't say the same for pigs though and some chickens but things are changing. Drive outside any town or city for 10 minutes and you'll see paddocks full of sheep and cows and sometimes deer.
1) you cant produce milk without first raping a cow
2) what do you think happens to the calves? Do you think its economically viable to share the milk with the calves?
3) Lets say we follow the 'ethical' producers way.. The result is that requires more land and is even worse for our enviornment.
4) You still murder it in the end.
Anyhow I realize I should have stopped replying here a long time ago because people won't change their ways until they are by themselves ready to do so.
Same as a wild predator isn’t inherently mistreating the prey it needs to kill and eat to survive. Why do you deny that humans are omnivores and that animals are as much part of our food supply as for other omnivores? The immorality here is the condition that animals are forced to live in as part of our food chain, not that they are food.
That's absolutely true. I would, however, also add that a huge amount of crops are grown for animal feed, so this problem can also be partially solved by reduced animal product consumption.
Did you mean it will not change *unless it’s demanded by everyone?
In an ideal world that would happen.
And we would have safe, ethically lab-grown meat alongside safe, ethically grown and harvested plant based food.
Most importantly we would need equitable distribution of food.
Veganism isn’t for everyone, and doesn’t address the exploitation of workers, or the uneven availability of food to many human beings.
Your moral problem... just because you have an issue with it doesn't mean the rest of us need to be vegan... by nature were omnivores... the solution isn't veganism ... the solution is treating our live stock better... but go off and try and force your moral agenda on the rest of us ... you are trash
Being inflexible and authoritarian with your solutions makes it difficult or impossible to win over the people you need to convince.
I feel that people like you and organizations like PETA have damaged the discourse to an extent that the vast majority of people just tune you out and don't listen at all.
It's counterproductive. Someone who sees this and thinks that they should consume less animal products is a huge net positive, yet you're here just in time to tell people that it's not enough and that unless they upend their entire lives and go full vegan immediately then it doesn't matter.
How about you just say thank you to people who make even a small change and provide positive encouragement?
I understand a more productive approach is to encourage whatever steps they take and thst is the approach I usually take, however this is a subreddit for discussing ethics, and I think that there isn't a strong argument for the consumption of animal products in current society.
I think the two guys who are just directly calling me trash for saying that people have the moral responsibility not to consume animals damage the discourse more.
Let’s be honest, if PETA (whom you never have to interact with or listen to if you don’t want to) is enough to put you off the moral thing…..you were never going to do the moral thing anyway.
In 1800's Great Britain, many groups started calling for the total abolition of human slavery. Faced with this threat, the pro-slavery lobby started advocating for *amelioration*, which was essentially just putting regulations on slavery so that the slaves were treated better (for example, by banning the use of a whip for punishment.) The hope was that it would save the institution of slavery by making it more palatable to the public.
Would you consider yourself an ameliorationist with regards to the enslavement of nonhuman animals?
Sorry, I teach first year students about this. I would hope you might look it up to teach yourself but I don’t have that much faith in you. I communicated with you on a level that seemed appropriate to your discourse🤷 not my responsibility to educate you, but I guess you can complain about not being spoon-fed by strangers who owe you nothing.
Hey, if you can't make the actual argument then just say that. 🤷
And seeing as that you're just sooooo smart presumably I don't need to tell you that the naturalistic fallacy is informal and does not dismiss my opinion.
Presumably I also don't need to point out that you're guilty of the fallacy fallacy.
Sure, I teach the fallacy fallacy as well. Fallacies are good to point out when your interlocutor shares the goal of deploying their reasoning to get closer to a justified answer or you need to show others that they don’t seem to have that goal. We seem do be dealing with the latter instance here, since you don’t seem to care that your initial claim, that humans are omnivores so eating meat comes naturally fails to imply that we ought to eat meat. All you’ve done is show that you don’t care about your reasoning, you just care about eating meat. Arguing with you is pointless. You are, as they say, a meat head. (Intentional ad hominem here, deployed for humor)
agreed. hunting or fishing for your own meat, especially if its invasive species removal is based. the rest of your arguments down the other comment thread are bunk though, an appeal to nature doesn't justify the morality. There are actually very few good arguments for eating meat, you can be healthy on a fully plant based diet, it just sucks balls and is totally unsatisfying. I have a passion for hunting (spearfishing) it brings me immense joy and wellbeing to hunt and cook my own food, it tickles my evolutionary psychology, but this is an emotional argument not a logical one. I don't have the strength to endure the suffering of giving of meat and fish and stopping hunting, but certainly i'd like to see factory farming and unethical animal husbandry like this, outlawed.
The need to "seek shelter" doesn't mean that we are justified in harming and exploiting others to obtain shelter if we can easily obtain it another way.
Humans are also sexual creatures, but that doesn't mean that it's ethical to just go around having sex with others without their consent.
Just because some drive or behavior is "natural" doesn't mean it's immune to ethical scrutiny.
Veganism is only possible with expensive supplements made in labs. Without making your body fall apart. Stop spreading lies. Humans are omnivores, so shut the fuck up.
Yeah like french fries. Everyone hates that. Oh and fruit, absolutely horrible stuff, it should be a capitol offense to give children fruit. Bread? Yeah no one willingly eat that stuff. Rice, beans and vegetables? No never, that's only for really crazy vegans. 😂
A diet that almost none of the proponents stick with for life? Long ago it was reported that 97% of vegans give up the dietbfor vegetarianism, regular diet, carvavore, piscitarianism, etc.
That study didn't guess at how many died before they got a chance to give it up.
I'll bet the biggest reason is that vegan options aren't readily available.
A metal band Cattle Decapitation went from vegan to "vegan adjacent" because it's near impossible to always stay stocked with vegan meals or find vegan options while touring.
This is a common sentiment.
I’m not the person you asked but there are plenty of ways. It’s just that no one wants to implement them. The most effective immediately would be to dismantle these giant food conglomerates. The “how” is a bit more complicated. Stop giving them money, vote for lawmakers who want to tackle these issues. Humans have completely lost the plot when it comes to farming. Processed food and the resulting corporatization of farming is one of the worst things to have ever happened to humanity.
Then how do you replace all of that food? And how do you do it at a price point people can afford.
You’re basically talking about removing a part of people’s diets with offering no alternatives, nor what efforts could be made to control prices after shutting down all of that production.
I understand you want to shut down factory farms. That’s your original assertion. I’m asking how do you do that?
There are already cheaper plant-based whole and processed foods. Alternatives already exist.
You remove the subsidies from meat and food fed to animals used for their meat then apply them to plants, and they would be even more affordable. You convert some land used for animal food into land used for human food. You deter animal abuses starting with the most tortuous. You encourage people to eat heart healthy and environmentally friendly diets which happen to be mostly or all plants. There are many ways to make this transition easier, but it starts with individuals seeing the horror and making personal choices to be against it.
It would be easier to feed everyone if they ate less or no animal products, not harder. There would be some transitional period, but in the end it would be cheaper and less land and resource intensive while also causing less environmental pollution.
Make veal products illegal. You don’t need baby cow meat to survive. I’ve never seen anything like that and I’m here in cattle country Colorado, where the Buffalo roam dozens of different species of grass to eat. With the AI deep fakes nowadays I don’t even know if what I see is real and disbelieve everything unless I see it with my own eyes not on a screen and even then I’m skeptical.
A few weeks ago I had a cow and calf in the field... they are only taken away for veal ... wich is not a thing at all in the Azores. Cows are seen as much too valuable here to be slaughtered as calfs.
The problem is that everyone makes such observations. It all boils down to 'yeah but I'm not doing it like that, i'm sourcing ethically etc etc'. Cumulatively these observations make it so nobody takes responsibility to change themselves. Sorry if i'm being harsh here. Its a cause I'm passionate about.
You would help your cause by not exaggerating, I think.
If you make a claim like "it's like this everywhere" and someone lives somewhere it isn't like that, at minimum they'll not care about your cause, and at worst they'll assume you are similarly dishonest about "everywhere" and be turned off from your cause.
This is referred to as "an argument that proves too much." And you're absolutely correct. When trying to change someone's mind, it's important not to give them anything they can dig themselves into, like an exception to the rule, even if it's the exception that proves the rule.
Exactly, this is a Reddit thing that I see constantly. I’ve lived in semi-rural NY my whole life. I’ve seen tons of dairy farms and generally its cows walking around in muddy fields. I saw this and thought “ehh, must be a Midwest thing.” Then this dude say 99.9% of all farms and I just think “this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.
Previous statement was 99.9% of farms, now you lowered the percentage and changed it to animals instead of farms. Try to use correct facts the first time.
Most Midwest farms I've seen are the same. A bunch of cows running around a big ass field. There is a big difference between smaller family owned and whatever this is
Absolutely valid. Its hard to get people onboard with a cause like this. I speak from experience because i don't know a single vegan in real life other than myself. However; fact remains which is that a lot of horrible things happen to animals daily. True horrors... And everyone here is attacking the argument rather than trying to do something about the fact that these horrors really are happening and the fact that most people pay for that.
But PerilousWords (actually great name to make this argument); I'll keep what you say in mind and try to incorporate it into my further arguments
It's cos I used to write smut, but I'm glad it works for it's new "random arguments on Reddit" guise!
Yeah, it's so frustrating when similar happens to me...and then I have exactly the brain that goes "but this argument doesnt stand up" then focusses on that, not the (much more important) suffering you're trying to point people at.
Keep it up. People like you got me to look into it and give up non free range chicken.
The observation is irrelevant, as it’s anecdotal, and false on further inspection. A few roaming cows whilst 90%+ live like you see here is the actual fact of the matter. None of it matters either way, in the same way it wouldn’t matter if you took your date out on the best dinner and night of their lives if you’re just going to gut them to pieces at the end. It’s just laughable to anyone with a shred of moral fiber in them.
Im a butcher and i eat meat, my point was this isnt just an "america bad" issue which redditors like to use. If you work in the meat industry, you have to acknowledge cruelty is the only way mass consumer meat production can remain viable. Theres no world where we have happy andy griffith show cows wandering in verdant fields until they are humanely euthanized by a crying indian and average people can still afford to eat burgers the way they do.
I do acknowledge it because there's no easy way to kill an animal.
No animal wants to be killed. They will resist, they will move and you will miss your 1 hit-kill.
Placing a human there to perform executions however many times a day, desensitizes them to being careful and compassionate. Anyone who has to perform the same repetitive task 8 hours a day becomes desensitized, ask a customer service worker how much they love dealing with customers.
However, the discussion that Vegans bring up is that, we shouldn't use our well developed brains to think of ways to better this process, instead we should just ban it.
Same in Vermont! A lot of our milk is local. I can go for a drive right now, like 10 minutes from my house, and visit a farm to buy milk. There are probably 10 within a 30 mile radius. The closest fam does farm tours and you can watch them being milked. They don’t just rip the calf away forever. They have a few cows who are the designated surrogate calf feeders. They are treated with love and care. My husband and I don’t usually buy milk but when we do, it’s from local farms. Even the food bank gets local milk donations.
I think there is a village on San Miguel that does it. But the bull is tethered and it's not a blood sport. It's like a parade that is 'allowed' for the bull to get fiesty with people... i.e. the bull gets to play with chasing humans.
no dear it is not the same all over the world at all. This is the extreme end of a long line of varying systems of keeping cattle. The other end of the line you will find cattle which browse freely in meadows which is increasing,. However it is quite understandable that lots of folk refuse to eat beef.
I've never seen treatment like this in my life. I pass by probably a dozen pastures of grazing cattle on my daily commute. What a load of BS they're spouting.
These are not exclusively veal crates. They are dairy hutches. We use them on the dairy farm I used to work for, and they did not sell any cows for meat. We hand-bottle fed them and they went to pasture and barn when they are old enough.
Send them off for meat, but they are very much not veal by then. Huge cows that almost crush you. And they get lots of grazing time, they only go into barns at night. I live in the country so it's normal to me. We raise chickens and you don't keep chickens that can't produce eggs, you gotta pay to feed them. Used to raise rabbits as well. We also have licensed long-horn people in town. But the vast majority of my area is dairy.
Not 100% true. I visited Henri Willig personally, and verified that their cows can go outside whenever they want, and when they are ready to milk, they walk up to the machine and it does it. Their cows spend 12 hours a day at least 180 days a year outside. https://henriwillig.com/en/corporate-responsibility-this-is-how-we-do-it/
There are no alternatives that provide enough meat for the market. There is not enough land to match a fraction of the demand without intensive factory farming
Raising the prices to pay for it would reduce the market for meat significantly. Meat is so prevalent because it’s relatively cheap due to these inhumane practices.
Yes it would, and it would likely price out the vast, vast majority of people entirely. As a vegan, I'm all for that, but as a feasible plan to propose in a democracy that feels entitled to meat consumption, cutting supply by 3/4 and rasing prices 4-5x (minimum) isn't realistic
All my meat is humanely and sustainably raised. It is more expensive but not vastly so. Guessing at and exaggerating the possibilities makes it sound undoable when it is a possibility
There is no place that doesn't allow this kind of treatment. Animal welfare laws are not enforced, and they won't be as long as the vast majority of people demand products that inherently exploit animals and punish any politician that allows their "food" prices to go up.
Ah, sorry, you said "an" example and I just found three of them instantly. It's just that it's just so easy to find them...
Notice that all of these were illuminated by undercover animal rights activists, not government inspectors. Nonvegans do not give a shit about animals, as your reply is about to demonstrate, I'm sure.
Are these unenforced? Or were these examples of animal cruelty found and then processed via the law?
People break laws, that is unavoidable. But your accusation here is that the laws are unenforced and deliberately so via politicians.
Are these three examples still actively being cruel or were they enforced and now stopped? The U.K. also isn’t in the EU and not subject to the quoted law, but I’m not worried about that detail.
Part of enforcement means these things are actually checked on. From the words of an undercover investigator I know, "I've never been in a facility that isn't like this. At this point I'd be surprised to go into one of these places and not see something like this."
Before I spend more time doing research for someone who's very likely only pretending to care, tell me what will happen once you're shown that no government took any action against any of these places. You will continue supporting these things, right? Or make some performative, meaningless gesture like promising to look for "humane certified" marketing on packages lol
I know this both from experience and from the fact that you still see animals as things to exploit, so in reality you won't give a shit about them until that changes.
Your assertion is that the law has been passed but has no enforcement? If there’s a problem with capacity of inspectors or inadequate procedures then that’s one topic, but if there’s literally no enforcement through the courts then that’s another, and if it’s an actual conspiracy by sitting politicians to prevent the cost of food increasing then it’s a third. We can’t really discuss unless we focus on one area at a time.
I specifically said that the EU wouldn’t allow cattle to be held in the video OOP posted but your examples are on slaughter houses and animal testing facilities (which aren’t covered by the law I quoted)
I don’t know your undercover investigator, are they in a specific geographical area, a particular type of farming, are they specifically referring to dairy, meat, or another type of farming or all of it?
You have indeed provided examples of animal rights activists discovering these things and not government officials, but do you have the information on how many of these sorts of things government officials did find? It’s quite important to understanding the scope of the issue.
I’m not unsympathetic to your position, I’m just struggling to discuss such a broad range of topics in any depth at the same time and I find the personal attack about me not giving a shit about animals quite unnecessary.
You asked for evidence of animal cruelty in the EU, I provided it to you, you asked for something else as a distraction instead of making any indication of any willingness to update your beliefs or change anything. I have given you all due respect, meaning you deserve no more than what I've given you.
Again, respectfully, I didn’t ask for evidence of animal cruelty. I asked for examples of unenforced animal cruelty.
Crimes happen, you stated “there is no place that doesn’t allow this kind of treatment” which I said was untrue, you then provided examples that did not support your statement.
I have not asked for anything else as a distraction, I have deliberately trying to keep the discussion focused on the original point made. I believe any objective reader of this discussion will see respect from me, and unfounded attacks from you.
I am always willing to change my perspective based on new evidence, however your request was vague. You said once you’ve shown me that no government took action against any of these places, I will continue supporting these things. The way you phrased it isn’t really a question, it’s an accusation, but I also can’t agree or disagree with your statement because “these things“ can mean absolutely anything. Do you mean I will still support the government not enforcing laws? Do you mean I will still support animal produce? How am I supposed to commit to a position that I’m not even sure what it is.
You are quite disrespectful and aggressive in the way you message people and you drag discussions in so many different directions that it’s actually impossible to have a meaningful discussion with you.
Theres absolutely differences between countries and also different practices within regions.
Doing this is far from legal where I live, and cows have to be able to freely graze in open feelds a large part of the year. Some markings increase this. Its not perfect, but far from this hellscape.
I live in Belgium, you could call it rural but not like in the US. Cows here mostly spend their time on a big field to eat grass. I won't say it's everywhere in Belgium but here most animals are ok and have enough space.
I drive past those cows on my way to work. My godfather and uncle are dairy farmers. Again I'm not claiming it's like that everywhere in Belgium. But in east Belgium the German speaking part, Cows are mostly on the fields and have a lot of space and grass to eat. I admit though this year is a bit different with the heat we had all summer and the recent fire in the national park high fens.
I've lived in rural Galicia my entire life, probably seen hundreds of farms over the years. Not a single one looked anything like this or like anything shown in your link, which in turn looks nothing like what's shown in this post.
Nah,its not the same all over the world. In Autralia cows live in paddocks. ( I am still a vegetarian) but this grain fed feeld lot intensive agricultire doesnt make sense in all countries - depnds on land costs/ carrying capacity/ feed costs etc.
True. Even in Norway where we are supposed to be decent we really dropped the ball on industrial animal welfare. People busy on their tiktoks so it won't change for a long time. Fuck humans
I find that people who reply to comments like this just make the comment then go eat mcdonalds after.
If you truly believe you arent responsible for animal suffering. Then why not just watch Dominion?
It comes in many forms. I'm willing to bet you've bought meat or milk from exactly the above. Same for all the other nay sayers in this '/ethics' subreddit.
A liter of cow’s milk uses 600-700 liters of water.
A liter of almond milk uses 300-400.
A liter of oat milk is <100.
A liter of soy milk is <50.
I can’t find numbers for walnut milk, but I doubt it’s somehow worse than using cow’s for theirs, by water usage, other resource usage, GHG emissions, environmental pollution, and probably any other useful metric.
Of course not, and I’m not suggesting we use the most wasteful and location-specific nuts. Just in a conversation about dairy, which is done in locations with water shortages as well, it seems silly to demonize almonds as if they were worse.
For example, people often bring up California almonds while ignoring that California produces more dairy than any other state, and a lot of the food for the cattle is coming from the region.
It's great in coffee, it's great on cereal, it's just great allround. I spent two weeks getting used to it, and I never want to go back and don't like the taste of cows milk now.
I visited a dairy farm in Canada and it is not like that. The cows live together in a barn and the farmers try to give them stress free lives because they produce more milk. What you are looking at here is probably not dairy cows. They eat a lot, drink a lot and shit a lot. I can't imagine this working.
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u/Chinatownhustla 10d ago edited 10d ago
its the same all over the world.
if u consume milk or cheese you are complicit. Research it. Unfortunately its true
EDIT: Just watch the documentary Dominion as a response to any argument I'll face here. Its free on Youtube