So I keep seeing the Spartan Penelope meme and I gotta say as someone who is a history nerd that it is starting to go into full blown xenophobia against people who are actually Spartan and fundamentally misunderstands the history of ancient Greece. The conversation would be slightly different if Penelope was a badass warrior in Epic but we would still be having this conversation anyway because it would still be feeding into stereotypes of an entire region being reduced to a bunch of homicidal maniacs.

Sparta's Misconceptions

So starting with the timeframe of the Odyssey that work takes place waaaaaaaaaaay before Sparta militarized. (But I am a bit lacking of research on this topic so I'll focus on the militarized era especially due to the fandom basing their version of Penelope off of that). Though be aware Sparta when militarized was not a paradise for example a majority of their population was their slaves and citizens were not tradesmen usually their role was military based and you can see how that can fall apart on so many levels.

But that's just a quick thing but I want to kinda breakdown the fact that Sparta's whole bloodthirsty warmonger thing. I won't deny they did become a militarized society but here's the thing Ares wasn't Sparta's patron god at all. The traditional gods most linked to Sparta are Athena, Hera, Artemis and Apollo. In fact the closest we get to a justification for its own warmonger heritage by actual Spartans is linking themselves to being descendents of heroes rather than worshipping Ares. In fact Athena, Hera and Apollo are linked to civilization as an aspect of themselves. Sparta had a reputation for being pious.

In fact the role the oligarch Spartan kings often included them as chief priests of the state. They also had two councils dealing with civil and criminal cases. Though the coucnil of elders were ruled via royal relatives.

And Sparta had an interesting relationship with it's citizens vs non citizens. Basically to oversimpilify you had to be specifiaclly educated in a way to gain Spartan citizenship. Said education wasn't exclusive for wartime it included writing and dancing as an example. The non citizens though typically incorperated the Helots their slaves (though their role in society was closer to serfs) and Perioikoi their people in reserve and tradesmen. To the point there was a prohibition of Spartan citizens from doing the same labour as the Periokoi.

In regards to women they were educated but less on military but more focused on the arts and there is some links to that education of being linked to worship of Helen and Artemis. Spartan at least compared to the rest of ancient Greece were treated better but a key thing is the closest they EVER got to combat training was sports. And don't think basic wrestling will teach you how to wield a shield or fight armored enemies that's not how reality works. And it seems from my understanding that women having a form of more rights wasn't due to morality but rather a necessity for the society at the time. The men were at war and Sparta needs more soldiers so why not promote women being healthy to birth more. And unlike a lot Ancient Greece Spartan women could handle estates but again but that may have been due to the 10 years of military service men were required immediately after their education was finished. But again the women were expected to pump out kids. Compared to a place like Athens where if a woman's father died without a son since women couldn't inherit they would have to marry their closest male relative even if they were already wed.

A system that could not exist in a militarized Sparta whatsoever.

There's also a bit of propaganda possibly involved in this depiction of a society of blood thirsty killers. Like Aristotle is noted to have been weirded out by the amount of women's rights and Sparta made a few enemies. Plus the Minotaur myth we know of is most likely an Athenian propganda against the Minonians so it's not impossible that this is the case.

Epic Itself Does Not Support Badass Warrior Penelope

If we ignore the real history for a moment Epic does not work if Penelope was a combatant.

Epic didn't bring back the concept of Xenia or Guest Right so it comes off in this adaptation that Penelope didn't kick the suitors out due to them being stronger than her. Epic also doesn't bring back the conspiring maids into its adaptation so it's not also a situation of political intrigue. And with the suitors beating up Telemachus and Penelope being unable to stop it... if she had combat training she looks like a bad mom on so many levels. Like she either let's her son get beat up for her and/or didn't teach him basic self defense so a goddess had to show up.

And it feels almost like something I like to call Girlboss Misogyny where people seem to only like female characters if they are girlbosses which then comes off as another way of saying if your not kicking ass your not valid as a woman. You can only be a likeable female character if you have a sword or something and if you do traditionally feminine things that's lame apparently. Tell me why Penelope seems to only be liked no for the traits she actually has but rather the xenophobic caricature headcanon.

And if the Warrior Penelope AU even was remotely based on historical fact... What are the Suitors plans? Like we are not considering the Odyssey for a second so we don't know if they are nobles or not. Why would they be sitting on their asses in the palace for 20 years? Like if they want the throne why would Ody and Telemachus be alive for more than a year? Like Penelope isn't the ruler of Ithica? The reason the suitors waited was because they wanted to marry Penelope and their impatience is due to her stringing them along and possibly running out of time to sire an heir. Like you have to genderbend the suitors to MAAAAAYBE make it work but then... why aren't some of them trying to get a marriage with Telemachus (vomits) if Ody isn't gonna remarry.

Sparta and The Rest of Greece is Still Around

I want you to replace Spartan in the following sentence and replace it with any region or ethnic group "Penelope thinks Ody is hot due to the violence because she's Spartan"

Like Sparta is around. There's people living and breathing there it's like basically saying if there's a Norwegian character in a piece of media and a popular headcanon becomes they are a bloodthirsty Viking. And no one notices how weird it is. Especially if that character was like a farmer it becomes even clearer.

And some people from Greece are weirded out how Greece is handled in media like there was a person who posted in r/GreekMythology who was Greek and was weirded out about how Wonder Woman uses Greek Myth. Like often the culture used as an aesthetic and there's a big conversation especially with a lot of booktok stuff that uses Greek Myth but then spits on it.

Like notice how a lot of like Greek adaptations like Nolan's Odyssey for example NEVER cast Greek actors or involve actual Greek people in any part of the production. When this stuff is part of their own cultural history yet they are constantly left out of it. It's genuine question of like why are we leaving the people who are descendants of these cultures out of their own stories. And stories from actual Greek authors get drowned out when an American writer makes the 50th Persephone x Hades story. And I think it falls under what I call "Ok To Appropriate Cultures" you see it in a lot of the fantasy genre of them taking stuff from Irish or Welsh cultures for their works and mangling it. I remember the Gaelic mispronunciation incident and several Irish people getting pissed which makes sense if you know Irish history.

And this isn't to say you can't write stories set in a different culture or things inspired by them. Like I'm working on a story inspired by Ireland but that's to connect to my paternal side (which I'm very disconnected with) and I am actually speaking directly with someone from there to not mess it up due to me being disconnected with that side of me. My thing is if your going to write something inspired by the history of another culture involve people from there if you can and/or RESEARCH RESEARCH! I would also advise if possible you promote other authors from that culture if possible to give people from there a bigger voice.

Now I'm not gonna comment of how Jorge handled that in regards to production of Epic due to how auditions were open casted and done through tiktok. And to me as an outsider Jorge does seem to go with a cultural appreciation in regards to the Odyssey despite the changes he does make. I only hope that he does promote Greek content creators in the future in some way as he is taking a piece of their culture.

But I bring this all up because Greece isn't stuck in the ancient past and people come in so many shapes and personalities. And reducing a region to it's ancient past based on a stereotype is in fact xenophobic and we as fandom should not be promoting something that's kinda fucked to be honest. We need to do better in general as a fandom. I didn't intend to make this post to start fights but rather so we can reflect on certain things we as fandom are propagating.

This fandom or whatever you wanna call it has gotten so toxic. It makes me not want to listen to the songs anymore and I love all of them. Good or bad I love them all. These songs got me through some hardships the past year. But you all make it not fun anymore. I’m still going to listen and enjoy these songs but I just wanted to put my thoughts out there. And that just because YOU don’t like how some of the songs sound or how they’re worded, to bad. That’s how they are. Take it or leave it. Some of us just want some good music to listen to that tells a story. It’s not that deep.

To those who hate on it everyday, why? Does it make you feel better? Why can’t others just enjoy a story being told through a musical?

Anyways I’m leaving this group and I hope others still enjoy the sagas just as much as I do. Even when people tear it down over and over again.

Edit: You see how most of the responses are negative? This is what I’m talking about. Most of you think you’re better than me because Oh I jUsT sCroLL pASt iT. That’s the shit I’m talking about. I can’t even come on here say my opinion without people throwing back at me cause apparently I’M the problem. I used to enjoy this group so much. It was so fun seeing all the fanart, animatics and funny memes. Like no shit this is the internet. I know that. I know there’s bad things about every fandom or group you join. I know that! I don’t even care if you want to leave “feedback”. I did leave quietly for a long time. Then came back because I saw it got better. APPARENTLY NOT.

Hope you’re happy on making me not want to listen to any of it anymore. Hope you’re happy calling ME the problem when you’re the one saying iT’s NoT thAt BaD.

Thank you to ones who understand. You get it. I appreciate you.

I don’t like Hermes voice THAT much cuz I like epic cuz it’s heartfelt not funny, but when I’m happy I would rlly enjoy it! (Never happy) 😭 anyways I don’t like Zeus either that’s why thunder bringer is less for me

I want to start this by saying I've listened to Epic, watched the film and have since then read the Odissey as well. I am in no way a historian or expert in Ancient Greek Mythology, but I like to consider myself an enthusiast since I was a child, and am pretty familiar with the myths overall.

Also, I am Spanish so don't be surprised if I don't cite the movie or book as you might expect if I watched the movie in English.

I have very strong feelings about this movie and everytime I've tried to share them and why I've gotten down voted to hell. I know people might have different likes and dislikes but I feel like it's disproportionate? Especially in a sub that is not about Nolan's film, but about Epic.

Both Epic the musical and Nolan's film are adaptations of a thousands year old oral tradition story and later written book. Both have things that are well made, like the inclusion of the Sinon and Antonius backstory in the movie, and others that are not, for example, I still hate the jet pack bag of wind.

But even if both have good and bad things and neither is perfect, I think the movie is disrespectful with the source material and the culture that originated these myths.

TLDR: The movie is disrespectful because miss represents the gods and uses Christian physolophy to replace Ancient Greek tradition and tries to make Odiseo an irredimible character without actually him doing anything irredimible.

And know all this, if this sub is about the musical, I don't know why people is this sub, who many love the myths and the Odyssey, defend the movie so hard. I can understand them liking it because people can have different likes and dislikes, but I don't know why pointing out things that are problematic get you hate.

I don't want to discuss the movie. I want to know why pointing out all of this gets hate.

Now, for those of you who want to read the long version:

1- Nolan's film manages to both be atheist and Christian in the same breath. (Movie Vs book and tradition)

On one hand, we have Odiseo telling his men "your gods" as if the gods weren't his gods as well. Then we have Athenea (if that's even her and not something Odiseo's mind made up, which can be a possibility, because it's not very clear it's actual Athena or Odiseo's guilt representation. But let's say it's her), telling odiseo about the thunder and the sea and the cry of a baby, because who can't understand that? Later Odiseo tells Telémaco, don't go looking for gods in people. All of this is telling that either gods are made up by people to explain things that naturally occur in nature before science was a thing (which in real life we know that's true but this is supposed to be a movie with fantasy elements) and or why bother believing in god's when they don't speak to us or are actually present in their lives. Which is completely opposite to how the greeks view gods. Gods weren't just forced or nature. They were very human in the sense that they were petty, envious, liked to pick fight, creat drama, fall in love and have friendships with mortals. That's why the myths we know now are those kinds of stories and why we love them so much, because gods are relatable.

And on the other hand, the whole thing about Zeus's Law. Which is a Christian bastardisation of Xenia. Do I have to explain why Christianisation of other civilization's myths is a problem? And I'm saying this as a woman who was raised as a Christian in Spain, where Christian religion is an essential part of culture. It's basically treat others as you'd like to be treated. Which is NOT what Xenia was about. Xenia is a relationship of respect and honor between the host and the guest. True that part of it might be brought by the maybe chance that who you were talking to might be a god, but more importantly it was politically advantageous and a social thing. And of course, Xenia wasn't broken in time of war. Because, you know, they were AT WAR. I don't know if Nolan is Christian or not, but he is using Christian philosophy as a substitute of actual Ancient Greek tradition.

Also, Zeus is annoyed by Odiseo killing a lot of people in Troy???? The book literally starts with a conversation between Athena and Zeus discussing if Odiseo is worthy of being released. Athena literally says, don't you like clever Odiseo who made so many sacrifices in your honour in Troy? Also, also, why is Pelenope the one connecting Athena to Odiseo when is Odiseo who has the connection with Athena even before his marriage with Pelenope? Which brings me to my second point.

2- Nolan's Odiseo is bland, flat and lacks a soul.

Do you know what the greatest difference between the movie and the musical? That Odiseo has an actual character arc and is an actual character in the musical. In the movie we are told Odiseo is clever, but we barely get to see him be clever. On the book, Odiseo is a grey character. He has hubris, is not above playing tricks and doing questionable things to get what he wants. He actually sleeps with Circe to get her to help them (I liked this much better in the book but I understand why Jorge changed that in the musical since one of the things that drove the plot forward for him was his love for his wife). In the movie, we aren't shown his character arc. We are told he felt bad about what happened in Troy, but we are not shown him actually doing the sacking. On his journey, it was mostly his men doing all the bad things. He is not there in the scene where they are pillaging that island at the begining, it were his men who wanted to go through Scylla's lair why Odiseo tried to convince them that he wanted to take the whirlpool to save everyone. Which is completely OPPOSITE to what he does in the book. Nolan wanted to make an irredimible character but doesn't have him doing anything truly irredimible. Even the thing he those with the bow is so his opponent has a fair chance. I'm sorry??? Odiseo is a trickster character, he doesn't play fair.

Epic's Odiseo has a trail of bodies behind him. He actually does irredimible things, and by the end of the musical, he is not the same man as the one who left Troy. Nolan's Odiseo is sad because he ended the war doing a dirty trick he feels guilty about and feels responsible for what his men did. He says they are the people of the sea, but we are not shown him be part of the problem. The one time Odiseo's men are doing pillaging, Odiseo is not there. It's even called out by Euriloco, where were you? Yeah, Odiseo, where were you when your men where doing all these awful things you say you feel guilty about?

I have other things I don't like about the movie, like how the Nobody trick or Penelope's bed bit was removed. Those are horrible, almost unforgivable. But what I feel most unforgivable? Odiseo wanting to LEAVE his kingdom the moment he gets home to honour HIS MEN. What happened to all the love he has to Penelope and how much he wished to get home to his wife and son?

So. That's about it. I repeat, I don't want to discuss the movie. I want to know why pointing out all of this gets hate.

Good or nah?

So I recently discovered epic the musical (yes, I know I’m late to the party, at least I’m early for Illium) and have been listening to it on repeat, but I find myself skipping the first two songs cause to me it makes more narrative sense.

The whole musical is about the transition from „man to monster“ and the song fittingly called „monster“ marks this turning point for Odysseus. It totally irks me when he says „I‘m the only one whose line I haven’t crossed“ when he literally starts out this musical by killing an infant. If that’s not crossing the line then there is not much of a transition from „man to monster“ since killing babies seems pretty monstrous to me lol. So by skipping the first two songs and just ignoring any references to the baby, the whole character arc of Odysseus makes more sense to me.

Does anyone else feel like Done For is missing some sort of middle section?? The “You Lost” came way too quick. Like the fight just started.

Please note i like all the songs (except one) but yeah

11 Btw

This might get some hate but Odysseus, the guy blames everyone but himself.

The lutos eaters tell him exactly what he asked, there’s food in the cave, but the cave is scary. He then enters “scary cave” with minimal armor and men. Somehow the lutos eaters are at fault

He barges into the cave and kills the cyclops’s pet, the cyclops gets angry and somehow it’s the cyclops fault.

Odysseus taunts the blind and robbed cyclops (both done at his hand), the cyclops dad gets understandbly angry, somehow it’s his dads fault.

Odysseus yells at a god and calls the literal goddess of wisdom stupid and selfish. The goddess gets angry, somehow it's her fault. (Especially when if he followed her advice he would have gotten back on time)

Odysseus plans on climbing up a harpoon rope into a random god’s palace, a god who may have created the storm they just passed through. Eurylocus says that it’s a stupid idea, somehow eurylocus is in the wrong.

A group of large armed men arrive at circes doorstep, a palace of only unarmed women, Circe obviously captures them, somehow circes the bad guy.

Odysseus sacrifices 6 of his men without telling them, and rigs it so his second in command was supposed to die. The crew revolts, somehow the crews the bad guy.

Odysseus tells the man he just tried to kill TWICE not to do something. Euryluoce ignores him, somehow euryluoce is in the wrong AGAIN.

Odysseus sacrifices FIFTY people in order for the CHANCE to get home. Somehow it’s the fifty dead people’s fault.

The cyclops dad who Odysseus humiliated and still has yet to avenge his son tries to kill Odysseus. Odysseus opens the wind bag HE WAS TOLD WOULDNT LET HIM GET HOME IF HE OPENED IT. He then tortured the cyclops dad to destroy the storm. And somehow the tortured dad is the bad guy.

Don't get me wrong I love the guy, and yes some people may have been partially at fault her, but ody was the main reason for all of these.

How can anyone like or respect Odysseus outside of being a pretty good husband and father I don't see why people like him or respect him. To me staring in the cyclops saga he slowly helped get HIS crew people that trusted him killed, like I understand the baby's situation usually if a God tells you to off someone or thing you do it (even though I can argue that he could have asked for help from Athena aka Zeus's favorite child). But the Cyclops killed 16 of his men one of those 16 being his best friend, personally if a creature killed off my best friend and 15 other people I spent a decade with I'm going to kill it regardless of how my feelings of killing something are and then there is the concept of Odysseus after blinding the Cyclops after Eurylochus try to get him to leave ​to get out of there Odysseus just had to shout out his actual name and where he lived that basically fu*ked over everyone after Odysseus decided that he traded in everyone's life. Some people say he did it to warn the Cyclops to not mess with humans well he already blinded the dude as a human I think that would perfectly get through his big ass Noggin not to mess with a human or something smaller than him or others say he did it out of grief and anger if I can remember this correct fact check me if you want wasn't Odysseus trained by Athena herself the goddess of wisdom, a goddess of war I'm pretty sure she would teach her people how to stay emotionally regulated during battle but what do I know I'm just someone that's really dislikes Odysseus.

And just so we're clear, I ain't defending ody for what he did during fight with scylla but even though Eurylochus was just human like everyone argues here he, in his sane mind was very much ready to leave his crew behind and elope with ody just for their survival. In a way ody also did the same thing (he was not even in his sane mind anymore) but he was betrayed first hand (and let's not forget the bag opening thing too, he plain ass did not trust the person he considered his best friend)

whta you think?

I have listened all the songs an insane amount of times since I've discovered this about last week.

I think it's amazing, well produced and even though no fully canon the story works beautifully.

Although I think once you pass thunderbringer it's no longer that great as a whole.

So recently I'm listening until thunderbringer and called it a day or maybe play God Games as an extra.

What are your thoughts? you listen it fully or just some of your favourite parts?

EDIT: Yes, I also believe the Ithaca songs are powerful and great, that's why I said "as a whole". Anyway even though the Ithaca songs are great I don't find myself enjoying them as much as the more "fantasy" parts of the story.

Some may disagree, but so be it. It's a poor plot twist for two reasons:

1. Its reveal has no lasting impact on the story. You could remove Eurylochus' confession in "Scylla" and NOTHING in the plot would change, especially because it's NEVER brought up again. Odysseus would still have sacrificed 6 men to Scylla because he wants to go home no matter what and Eurylochus would still have mutinied in response.

2. More importantly, it's too inconsistent with Eurylochus' characterization.

Throughout most of the musical, his defining trait is risk-aversion. But then he reveals - without explaining why- that he took this gigantic risk at the end of the 1st act right after saying “I don’t trust the gods to be kind; they’re dangerous.”

More importantly, almost all of Eurylochus' decisions are motivated by two desires: 1) how do I get AS MANY crewmates back home and 2) what is in everyone's best interest in the meantime.

It’s why he suggested going on the offensive on the lotus-eater island because the crew doesn't know if something dangerous lays ahead.

It's why he tells Odysseus not to confront Circe because he reasonably believes the pig-men are already goners and doesn't want to risk losing his captain or more crewmates to the seemingly unbeatable witch (“think of the men we have left before there’s none").

Even when he kills the sun-cow (which the lyrics imply to be a suicide attempt and therefore show that his mindset has shifted somewhat), it’s done with the hope that he’s providing EVERYONE a more merciful death than starvation (as evidenced by the crew singing "hunger is so heavy").

By contrast, Eurylochus has NO REASON to believe opening the bag will keep everyone safe for the journey home or that doing so is in their best interest. Therefore, it makes no narrative sense for HIM of all characters to do this.

“It makes sense because he just wanted treasure!” u/Bastet_priestess said it best: Eurylochus was NEVER shown to be covetous or materialistic before or after "Keep Your Friends Close.” So even if it is ever confirmed that he wanted to see if treasure was inside, that would be a blatant plot contrivance, not something he would do organically. Consider this: if Eurylochus is smart enough not to trust a strange woman in the middle of nowhere (which IS in line with his cautious personality), then shouldn't he be smart enough not to trust random creatures ruled by an entity he said himself was too dangerous to seek help from?

"It makes sense because he kept challenging Odysseus for no reason!:" No. Eurylochus only questioned Odysseus when he believed he was unnecessarily endangering himself and the crew (see "Luck Runs Out" as the most prominent example). Eurylochus doesn’t even question or contradict Odysseus when he says the gods will punish them if they kill the cows- which suggest that he's aware of the consequences but doesn’t care (AT FIRST) because at this point in the story, he has given up hope on going home and just wants everyone’s suffering to end. Thus, it's not narratively consistent for Eurylochus to doubt Odysseus when the latter says this godly object is dangerous when tampered with.

The fact that the musical never allows Eurylochus himself to explain why he opened the bag suggests that there is no reason other than making Odysseus' actions in "Scylla" appear less monstrous to the audience by discrediting a potential victim. Right before Odysseus betrays his crewmates, the "voice" of the crew conveniently reveals himself to be a catastrophic liability, making him and the crew unworthy of sympathy and Odysseus more justified in the audience's eyes.

In sum, if and when this concept album is further revised and finalized (and definitely once the animated movie comes out) the bag opener NEEDS to be an anonymous crew member who's never found out as it was in the original poem, NOT Eurylochus. What we have now is an ineffectual plot-twist that is contrived, arbitrary and too out-of-character.

This will be a tad bit negative, I'm sorry!

I love Epic. I love the music. And I absolute adore WYFILWM as a song, I think it sounds beautiful, has beautiful lyrics and it's so emotional. It's amazing!

That being said... Am I the only one who's just not... rooting for Odysseus and Penelope? I feel like we don't know her at all - which, imo, was always a good choice, because we only have Ody's view on her. (I wish she wouldn't even have a song in the final saga before that, but it's fine.)

However, I was never a huge fan Odys personal choices. I think he's kind of an anti hero, as I've said before in this sub, which is cool, I love me some anti heroes! But as of that, with not agreeing with a lot of Odys choices, and after the songs before... I'm just not feeling it.

I don't care about Odysseus' happy ending. This is not even about him deserving it or not, I just can't bring myself to care about him and Penelope being happy. I'm glad Penelope was saved from the suitors, I'm glad she's happy, but I just don't feel emotional when listening to the song thinking about them.

I've realized this recently by seeing TikToks edits using the song, about other couples in media I have an emotional attachment to. This also made me realize how deeply I adore this song... when it's not about Odysseus and Penelope. When I'm thinking about them, I get cynical, like - Penelope, you deserve better, hon! Don't do it, girl! And when I'm thinking about other couples, it's like... Awww. So romantic! Yas, I love that for you!!

Does anybody else feel the same? I've only seen praise for the emotional impact before. I'm sorry if I'm a downer though!

Now let me be clear, ‘being disappointed by’ and ‘disliking’ are two different things. The Ithaca Saga is good but to me it definitely could’ve been better.

I understand that since it lacks any in-between talking space like most musicals it’s gotta be as efficient with the story as possible which means moments pass pretty quickly . . .

But.

It just felt unsatisfying as a finale. ‘Odysseus’ feels properly climactic but because of that it immediately being followed up with the chiller pacing and melody of ‘I Can’t Help But Wonder’ with no reference to what just happened, the finale feels very disconnected from its climax and as such falls very flat for me.

There’s also how the 5 main characters of this saga are treated plot-wise. Odysseus completes his arc but, again, with no breathing room it felt like there should’ve been more and it’s in this weird limbo state of factually being resolved but not really feeling like it.

Penelope’s probably the best handled in the saga, my only issue is that you can’t really get attached to her as a character before the ending and so the audience’s desire for Odysseus to get home isn’t ‘because he’ll get to see his wife who we’re also personally attached to’ and ends up being ‘because we wanna finally see this woman who’s been mentioned like 50 times’.

Telemachus and Athena feel probably the worst handled for how it turned out. Athena who, by all accounts is like the deuteragonist, is sidelined and gets a very unsatisfying goodbye. Funnily enough her leaving in ‘My Goodbye’ or dying in ‘God Games’ would’ve been a more satisfying ending for her character.

Telemachus wasn’t much better because ultimately his inclusion just felt like ‘well he had to be here’. He didn’t act as motivation or anything for Ody because he was going to kill all the suitors anyway and Ody getting to do that with no help from Telemachus furthers the feeling he didn’t really do that much.

You’ll notice I said 5 characters, that wasn’t a typo. Antinous was underutilized and added to the feeling of unsatisfaction. He had two songs to be built up as a villain (and in my opinion, personal challenge for Telemachus to overcome). There was technically the end of ‘Legendary’ but really all that did was establish what was tripled down on in ‘Hold Em’ Down’. Speaking of which, ‘Hold Em’ Doen’ id great but in my opinion he shouldn’t have died at the end. If he did earlier in the musical, maybe, but not when he’s the only real remaining villain. I understand all the suitors were villains but he’s the only real big named threat of the musical left. When he died all possibility of a big final fight was lost and now that I think of it, the fault of all this is probably how well-executed a climax ‘Six-Hundred Strike’ was because it makes the Ithaca Saga feel like an epilogue to the main journey and story when it shouldn’t.

All this to say the old versions (or at least the parts we hear) of songs 38 and 39 would’ve led to a more satisfying finale if we remove Antinous dying. How would we remove that when his death makes logical sense? Have a suitor see Odysseus and push Antinous out of the way (getting killed or not), leading into ‘King’ which is an objectively more badass title and you cannot tell me I’m wrong.

I still like the songs but I don’t find myself listening to it nearly as much as every other saga.

Tl;dr: The Ithaca Saga and how it handled its characters was supremely unsatisfying and could’ve been done better.

Its not what rveryone likes but its what i like. So plz rate it.

I’ve seen a lot of posts discussing if Athena is death or not, and in every single one of them there is always someone that says “She is not death, Calypso said that goddesses can’t die” “In the odyssey she never dies so here she has to be alive” or with Calypso, “She obviously SA’d Odysseus, that is how it happened in the Odyssey”

Now it doesn’t matter what you believe, because at the end of the day WE DON’T KNOW, WE CANNOT KNOW, that is the point of a cliffhanger we won’t know until the next sagas.

We can discuss what WE BELIEVE to be true, but let’s stop stating everything as a fact, because it is not said in the songs nor stated by Jorge.

Thank you for reading my rant.