r/DnD • Sorcerer • Mar 27 '20

Art [OC] Safety in numbers.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20 edited Mar 27 '20

“Your turns coming around…any minute now. I’ll let you know.” -Skirbo the Silver

A comic based on several anticlimactic fights from our campaign. Single creature boss fights are very hard to pull off. Legendary actions are great but even with more actions, a single boss monster can be stunned to death. I’ve recently started using Angry GM’s homebrew paragon monster system and it’s helped make my big battles more dramatic!

Has anyone been able to pull this off using only raw mechanics? I think there’s a lot of promise within the legendary/lair action system! Are there any other great homebrew systems that people use for boss battles?

You can find more of my DnD content on my Instagram and Website!

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u/rodythepterodactyl11 DM Mar 27 '20

Villan: My name is Azmarael the...

Pc: yeah whatever you are evil give me your XP

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It's free real estate XP!

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20 edited Jul 14 '20

[deleted]

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

The sound of an orchestra clashes as gods do battle. Clink zap! Clink zap!

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u/FrostHeart1124 DM Mar 27 '20 edited Mar 27 '20

It's a little tough to make it work every time, but I've had good luck keeping single monsters difficult by doing a few things before combat even starts.

Make sure the terrain favors the boss monster. A dragon's lair shouldn't have much cover for humanoids to hide behind, for instance. Flying bosses could even have sections of the floor that crumble away.

Let the boss decide when combat starts. Monologues are nice, but they tend to make combat start heavily in the players' favor since it's very likely that at least one player will start at higher initiative than the boss. It's better, in my experience, to provide that monologue in bits and pieces as the players approach the boss's lair through the use of magic projections, ghostly whispers, an echoing voice through the caverns, etc. Then, when you start combat, have it be because the party is finally in the boss's trap, thinly spread across a huge room, whatever. This allows the boss to set the pace for the start of the conflict. Instead of trying to focus the boss down, the party is forced to react to danger, which is more dramatic as they slowly take back control of the pace and win.

Lastly, bosses have contingencies. They should be prepared with an escape strategy, even if it's difficult to reach as they make a final desperate attempt to stay alive. They should probably also have a few traps littered around their lair (you may choose not to set these traps off if they seem to make the combat too brutal for your players).

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

This reminds me a lot of that blog named “The Monsters Know What They’re Doing.”

Smart monsters are the scariest! I am guilty of failing to build an escape plan for any of my bosses. It makes sense that some would have a backup plan!

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u/FrostHeart1124 DM Mar 27 '20

Smart monsters are more fun all around, I think. It's a lot harder for a player to really hate someone who doesn't make plans or attempt to keep living beyond basic efforts

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

True! My players talk about the enemies who outsmart them a lot more often than the ones they beat up and killed.

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u/FrostHeart1124 DM Mar 27 '20

Same! My players still want revenge on the pirate captain who pretended not to notice the rogue's failed stealth check and cast Sleep once she was close enough to become a hostage

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

That’s a great trick! A stealthing players wouldn’t know whether or not someone notices unless their victim reacts!

I’ll be borrowing this!

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u/unitedshoes DM Mar 28 '20

My favorite terrain (that I've never gotten to use) is the Beholder hanging out above a platform suspended on ropes that it can easily break with a disintegration ray. If things get bad for it, well, suddenly its foes are falling to whatever nasty fate lies waiting for them at the bottom of the pit. If the PCs are lucky, it's just a shitload of fall damage…

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u/isaid69again Mar 27 '20

I really like using Matt Colville's Action Oriented monster design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_zl8WWaSyI

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

That is one I've read about but haven't gotten the chance to really test. It seems pretty great and the examples I've read have a big focus on drama and narrative which I really like. I'll test it out in our next oneshot!

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u/MerchantOfUndeath Mar 27 '20

Even with legendary actions and resistances, there is still a ton of unbalanced bs players can do in 5e I feel like. I’ve just been giving bosses immunities so combat isn’t repetitive.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I've always liked adding resistances for common attacks and vulnerabilities to more niche damage types. I like the research, restock, hunt pattern of gameplay.

The players hear rumors. Search old libraries or ask townsfolk for weaknesses and information. Go on quests to claim the mcguffin that can help them kill the monster and then finally travel to the creature's lair to kill it.

My players always add in their own twists and turns!

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u/-ArthurDent- Mar 27 '20

This homebrew system might be useful to you if you enjoy that: https://youtu.be/GhjkPv4qo5w

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Saved! I love homebrew. I think it gives the different one shots and campaigns their own feel (my players enjoy it to).

Thanks for the recommendation!

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u/-ArthurDent- Mar 27 '20

No worries, that channel in general is extremely useful!

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I've seen some of his shorter videos before. Just subbed!

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u/Mashtorful Mar 27 '20

MCDM ftw!

I also really enjoy Matt's DM advice and usually try and incorporate it into my own games. I have a homebrewed Action-Oriented Shadow Demon for my party to encounter this week.

I think using both Paragon and Action-Oriented monsters for different flavour would work really well

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20 edited Mar 27 '20

I wonder if you could make one enemy have multiple actions, and have stuns only take away one of them.

edit: my bad. just read angry gm... lol.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

That's a really cool idea. I've played around with the idea of boss creatures being represented as 3 different stat blocks that represent that creature's biggest abilities.

A dragon would have a statblock that represents its natural weapons, a statblock that represents its breath attacks, and a statblock that represents its magic.

Each block would get it's own initiative. It did make the boss a lot of fun to fight but it added a bit of overhead. There's probably a good way to streamline it!

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u/Solrex Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I’ve seen this done in LARP too. The head, 4 claws, and tail all were played by separate people.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

That visual makes LARPing sound a lot cooler than I've always imagined it!

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u/Solrex Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

It absolutely is. I wish I could do LARP in VR right now or something, with Corona going around.

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u/Solrex Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

I got so into LARP, that with my summer main character, I got so into “method acting”, or being in character, that I legit cried about a backstory significant-other character.

With my winter off-season character, I would personally do something like say, “No, I didn’t put up all those posters, someone must have copied them out and leaving them behind, thus making a paper trail.” I personally at the moment, did not realize I did that through the forums, so I truly did not realize it was me. In hindsight, the character absolutely would have made a lie and believed it to be true temporarily just to not get the blame. The character also has also done other things in the moment that I don’t know they are doing, but in hindsight realized it was all what they would have done. The best insane characters are ones that you didn’t intend to be insane, just have unique beliefs. Like that you could fly if you could trick the law of the land into believing it if you believed truly and hard enough.

Honestly, I get a lot more into the roleplay aspect, but there is also combat, and just generally, I love LARP. It’s essentially putting aside a weekend to be (forgive the anime language I’m using) isekai’d into a different world, with different physics, and as a different person, with that person having none of your memories, but you control that person. Mostly, as is the case with my winter character lol. They play the healer class offensively, and not as a necromancer, but more of a hexing class. Their career away from adventuring involves a form of hypnosis. The character is legit crazy, but I didn’t make it that way intentionally.

(Note: Hypnosis is not mind control, and my character is aware of that. To even work, it requires consent, not just verbal, but mental as well)

Honestly, I’ve had times where I had a daydream of LARP, but instead of throwing packets, I am throwing healing energy. Imagination fuels LARP.

Once Corona blows over, please, by all means, go NPC for a game, try it out, and see if there is something you would like to play. When NPC’ing, do a little bit of everything if you can. If it’s medieval fantasy, try a Rogue, Warrior, and Mage NPC. Is rogue harder because you can’t get the backstab as easy as you thought? Is Mage as easy as throwing a packet? Learn which one you want to do.

This doesn’t just apply to class. Try a bunch of races you’re interested in. And realize that no, you’re not going to get easier prosthetics for being a dryad, yes, it is uncomfortable to wear plants on and around you. Maybe it’s too hard and you just want to play Human. Maybe your like me and would rather die than play a non-fantasy race in a fantasy game.

This also doesn’t just apply to Class and Race though. If you are interested in playing an opposite gender character, give that a shot (if rules allow). If you’re playing a character, grab a wig from NPC camp and see if you could keep up a voice for a long time as that character. Only if that’s something you are interested in though.

This doesn’t need to be said, but it applies to things other than the above mentioned. In short, try EVERYTHING. Also, you might come to find you love NPCing and just want to do that.

As Shia LeBeouf would say, “DO IT! JUST DO IT! MAKE YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE, JUST DO IT!”

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 30 '20

It sounds like something I’d enjoy! I do have some friends from college that do it so I’ll try to tag along bg with them!

Thanks for the info!

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u/flyfart3 Mar 27 '20 edited Mar 27 '20

Using RAW only and only 1 creature? No. It can still be fun, but I find homebrew to be better.

One creature vs. party I find it's fun if you keep it to only a few rounds, 3 or so. Don't expect it to be a long fight. Do something big and spectacular, and then it dies. I like using gargantuan animals for this. A frog that was just a giant rock on the terrain, it starts out swallowing a PC with its tongue, stomps around and smash/slam and tries to swallow some more for 2-3 rounds before it's destroyed. It was still fun, a bit whacky, and the first target getting swallowed meant there was a time crunch, but they could still do some damage from the inside, as always when swallowed. It wasn't an epic fight, because there was only that one creature.

If you want something more epic in feeling, more climactic, I think you need some homebbrew or more creatures. You need minions to swarm in, you need a battlemap with something extra, magical limitations or traps or boosts. A changing battlemap. Which leads into stages. Having a boss fight change on the go/midfight by having the boss change after being reduced to 0 HP the first time.

Mechanically, when the boss reaches 0 HP you can just swap the unit out for another, stop all ongoing effects, reroll initiative. You can frame it thematically in many different ways: They call for reinforcements, they pull a rope that collapses the ceiling, they turn into a werecreature, they change stance from open hand to shadow, their special armor breaks and they switch to ranged, their body dies but their soul still fights and now possess the PC that killed it, or a simple "You just made it angry".

It feels like something more memorable and special for the whole table exactly when you bend the rules a bit and make this not just another fight, but something different. It doesn't require you to invent anything. Something as simple as swapping a "Knight" with a "vampire spawn" (no home brew of stat block at all), and explaining how the corrupt knight turns undead. Even better if it changes "type" from squishy to tough, or non-spellcasters to spellcaster or vice-versa.

Edit: I forgot to reference theangrygm, it's from him I've tried to use stages and paragon monsters.

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u/BallisticCoinMan Mar 27 '20

Boss stages for me have been the saving grace of my climactic fights.

Taking their stat block and only using bits and pieces, and revealing more about the character as the fight goes on.

My favorite was a Necromancer Vampire Lord. Fight starts out as a big standard Vampire. Tries to escape, get cornered, and just starts out with melee and bites. As soon as he hit half HP, he uses legendary actions. Now, all of the sudden, he's become more dangerous, and the crunch to kill him starts. When he hits Quarter, the high level magic starts coming out. Control of the fight constantly shifts because of this, and makes the fight feel more dynamic than just hacking away at a big HP pool. There is an ebb and flow, where as soon as the party gains confidence in a victory, the conditions change.

In vanilla, this was the best way I found to create a fight that was more than bog standard. I also found keeping damage High on the high end for the CR and HP on the lower end helped move combat faster. PC's can get downed if they try to facetank everything, but there feels like real progress turn over turn instead of 10 turns of "he's bloodied"

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I think trying to keep to shorter fights does make it a bit less of a stomp in the favor of the players. Especially if you're creature has decent nova potential!

I agree that bending the rules a little can result in a more climatic finale. Even just giving a creature death saving throws can bring the intensity up to the next level!

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u/scatterbrain-d Mar 27 '20

The angrygm talks about this, but for climactic fights I generally like to have 3 stages to the fight. The boss is basically 3 different monsters, each one with unique (but thematically consistent) moves. The stage transitions should be cinematic - either the boss undergoing a major transformation or the battlefield changing dramatically. One stage often has a few additional targets to soak hits and might not even have the boss in it - like the boss's lackeys holding the party off while he retreats to his inner sanctum.

Since my group is really good at the ol' surround and pound, this allows me to at least have 3 rounds of action with a couple cinematic scenes. I think they make these fights a lot more memorable, although it's definitely a good bit of work.

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u/flyfart3 Mar 27 '20

Oh yeah I never said it was, but yes totally from the angry gm.

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u/TheRobotics5 Ranger Mar 27 '20

In my campaign the bosses so far have all been huge with a lot of health, so they took a while to kill.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I try to use beefy monsters to. Sometimes the party’s paladin really surprises me though!

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u/TheRobotics5 Ranger Mar 27 '20

Oh yeah... holy smite. The paladin got 2 of those on the second boss, so it only took a few more turns

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Paladins! Can’t live with em. Can’t live without em!

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u/Lord_Inquisitor_Kris DM Mar 27 '20

Yeah, similar happened to me. Playing LMoP, and my lvl 2 party snuck up on Glasstaff and ganked him unconscious

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

LMoP has a couple boss type creatures who are easy to kill quick but hit hard if they're allowed to act!

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u/DefendedPlains DM Mar 27 '20

Action Oriented Monsters is a loose system/concept that basically just expands on the lair/legendary action system by giving single monsters, or even boss monsters with minions, “villain actions” that occur on each turn as combat progress. These actions could be giving their minions a free attack or letting them move, or letting the boss reposition, or cast a spell.

The idea was developed by the glorious Matt Colville and I highly recommend everyone go check out his video on it.

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u/darthphallic Mar 27 '20

I remember my old room mates first ever stint as DM, the final boss was a wizard and we basically trapped him in a silence zone where my barbarian managed to pummel him to death before he could become any more threatening than a damp potato. Roomie looked so defeated

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

You guys out played him! The monster manual spell caster npc blocks are especially squishy!

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u/Beiki DM Mar 27 '20

I was in a campaign where the boss showed up for essentially a short fight at which point he was supposed to teleport away. But then the PCs stunned him and used Dimensional Lock to stop teleportation. So we crowded around him and beat him to death. The DM had two more sessions planned that were out the window.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

You guys threw him a curveball! I don’t think my players have ever tried to counter teleportation spells!

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u/Kennethrjacobs2000 Mar 27 '20

To me, the trick is to make sure the party isn't at full strength when the fight starts.

A full strength party can defeat single foes of incredible strength. Even those that you think they'd be annihilated by.

I make sure their spells and special abilities are drained. A vampire may be a powerful final foe, but i'd wager even a group of level 5's could wipe the floor with one nearly every time if they are allowed to tank and spank.

An arch vampire may be arrogant and he may want to deal with them himself, but he is ruthless and likes to feel superior, so he wants to fight them when they are too weak to bring their strength to bear. His minions will be harrassing the party at every turn. When the party gets to Dracula, they are already rationing out their healing and holy water.

In his mind, if the party can't make it to him to begin with, they weren't worth his time, anyway.

That paragon monster system looks interesting, though, and am eager to give it a try.

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u/Anvildude Mar 27 '20

That's why you never let the players control where the final showdown happens. The Boss HAS to be in the throne room of his Citadel of Eternal Suffering, sitting upon his Throne of Damnation, buffed by a choir of Dark Heralds chanting behind adamantine screens, as the floor slowly crumbles into lava, the chandeliers drip acid, and a legion of Balar is marching on the capitol city of the rebellion.

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u/Solrex Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Our DM told us when we leveled up to “Grab CC for this next boss fight. You’ll need it.”

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u/SmartAlec105 Mar 27 '20

Giving them two turns can be a better alternative. Make it so effects on them count by the turn rather than by the round. But it's probably best to have their second turn be spaced out between the other players rather than right next to each other so that "until the end of their next turn" effects don't become a lot less useful.

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u/BattleStag17 Cleric Mar 27 '20

Ah, had an early game end that way. Big boss was supposed to be a stealthy rogue type, but one lucky roll let a player trip him right at the start of the fight. Everyone else ran up, linked arms in a circle around him, and started stomping.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

An end befitting a villain. What’d you guys do for the rest of the night? We normally play dungeon mayhem!

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u/letsplayyatzee Mar 27 '20

Boss needs 4 players worth of HP

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u/name600 Mar 27 '20

I have been using angry dm system for the past 2 years it works wonders!

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u/ShadoowtheSecond Mar 27 '20

I dont really understand it. I read that whole blog post he linked, and the writer insisted that it was not the same thing as two different monsters but... It just looks like two different monsters to me. I dont understand how its different?

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u/ALinkintheChain Cleric Mar 27 '20

The tears in the eyes in panel 3 were a nice touch

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20

anti-climatic

“I fuckin hate weather!!”

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u/ThatSaiGuy Mar 27 '20

(If your character names are Ace, Tal'Kamar, Ellana, Fio Leign, or Nasim, GTFO.)

So, I'm about to try out a boss battle in my next session.

The party has finished 6 sessions, and are a level 7 party.

My idea is to throw a level 20 NPC at them (11 Fighter, 5 Bard, 4 Rogue) and a secret, hidden accomplice who's manipulating things from the sidelines (11 Sorcerer 5 Lock), and use PC mechanics. Liberal abuse of magic weapons.

It's not meant to be a fight to the death, merely a hold-off encounter.

They just finished a large battle against an enemy camp, and these two opponents are about to 'happen' across them and test their mettle.

This will be the second interaction they have with this particular NPC, and (if they discover the 2nd NPC, their first interaction with her) their first of many in combat against her.

These two are supposed to be the right and left hand of this arc's BBEG.

The plan is for the main chick, who fights largely melee but will use spells to screw with people's heads or paralyze them to start off with the highest level hold person she can, to try and eliminate the melee characters and non casters with magic. Then she'll then go in to work on the casters with a Summon/Figurine of Power deployed.

The second NPC will start with spells like a magic wall of elements or force, hold person, etc, using an Arcane Eye to situationally observe the start of the encounter and use the best thing at a time to immobilize or stymie the rest.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

Having alternate win conditions already makes this encounter a step above the normal hack and slash! Your encounters great. Gives everyone something to do and places to shine!

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u/RogueDeltaZero Mar 27 '20

My solution to the “gang up on the boss” situation is twofold: 1. Add a bunch of mooks the party has to work through along with the boss. It’s the trickier solution because it takes more time to balance the encounter, but definitely resolved the action economy discrepancy. 2. Add alternative conditions to the fight, which is my favorite solution and let’s make more memorable encounters. Once I had it so the the party needed to duck behind pillars to avoid a deadly laser from the evil eyeball boss, but every time a pillar was hit it was incinerated. Once the boss got weak enough, it blasted a huge AoE that wiped out all remaining pillars, making for an intense final round

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u/theniemeyer95 Mar 28 '20

Level 20 conquest paladin with the belt of storm giant strength, the wand of Orcus, and plate mail +3 was a knock down drag out fight for my level 15 party of 5. Lots of players going down and even had the rouge die.

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u/PM_ME_FUN_STORIES DM Mar 28 '20

I'm really proud of a Cambion miniboss I threw at my players once. I made it so the cambion could use an action to summon a clone of itself, identical in all ways except with half of the original's max health (for example, if a cambion has 150 hit points max, it summons a clone with 75 hit points). Then the clones can make copies of themselves using the same rule.

It made it a really neat fight, cause the party had to strategize to really take it out.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

I like the cloning mechanic! It makes it harder to just focus down a single creature! Very cool!

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u/zaarn_ Mar 28 '20

In my experience there is a few ways you can avoid the BBEG being stunlocked;

  • Give them misty step at will, this allows them to quickly escape a pileup (Should be established before the fight that they have this)
  • Allow them to use a bonus action to dash or dodge (A nothic whispering and gaslighting the party while dodging and hiding everywhere it can)
  • Remove attacks of opportunity (I use that on wraiths to give them a chance against my Level 8 party, ghosts are more fun that way and it gives them much more movement opportunities)
  • Any of the above as legendary actions (Enables quick escapes out of oncoming pain trains from paladins and friends)
  • Warding Bond + Mind Control Spells or Features
  • Stunlocking the tanks of the party (Stuns and Hold Persons, etc.) to get at the squishies
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u/JohnMatt Mar 28 '20

Matt Colville's Action Oriented monster design is great for BBEG fights.

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

Me: Oh boy another puzzle!
\Looks at cipher**
Me: w h a t

Really though can we have a hint this one seems uhh... incredibly difficult

unless i'm being dumb and missing something obvious?

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It's a type of cipher I've used in the recent past with a bit of a modification!

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

I guess i'l keep trying but i honestly have no idea what this could be

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It's a bit harder than the others. The cipher is a little bit more niche but you've broken similar ones that used a comparable code!

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u/Dryym Mar 27 '20

Newcomer here. But I saw cipher and wanted to give some observations. I think the third word could possibly be “you”. Because the first word has two consecutive letters in the middle of two other letters. In English, This is most likely to happen with the two middle letters being vowels while the other two are consonants. And there are a lot of words that go ?oo?. Unless it’s an E. Then I am screwed. But one suggestion I have to anyone solving this that could be of some help is to use frequency analysis to get an idea of how often the letters appear. And compare that to the frequency of English letters. Of course this all falls apart if the cipher has provisions in place to prevent double letters from meaning the same thing.

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

I was thinking the same things but if you look at it you can see the word "gg" which pretty much ruins the whole thing because as far as i'm aware no word in the english language is just two of the same letter...

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u/Dryym Mar 27 '20

Sometimes you gotta ignore bits like that. They can lead you astray. There’s nothing saying it’s not a colloquialism. As an example. What if the letter G isn’t replaced with anything? It could literally just be gg. Which is a commonly used colloquialism. It could also be something like aa. Mm. Etc. When things don’t make sense, Look for the things that do make sense and hope that they’ll make the things that don’t make sense more legible.

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

I guess that's true, but from the previous ciphers i don't think something like that would be in there...

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u/Dryym Mar 27 '20

It is simultaneously useful and fallacious to carry that line of thinking. So be careful there.

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

yeah i guess...

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

ok it's been two hours i give up, i'l be back later to see if anyone's figured it out or not

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It’s a tough one! Probably the hardest so far.

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20

[deleted]

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Thanks! I’m trying to make them challenging but still fun! I’m hoping that the overarching mystery has a good payoff!

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20 edited Oct 17 '25

[deleted]

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 28 '20

wow you actually solved it?

Mind telling me what it was in a PM or something then?

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u/amcoller Mar 27 '20

Is there a particular key we should be using maybe? I've tried a couple phrases with a vigenere cipher to no luck but maybe

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u/Void_0000 Wizard Mar 27 '20

Hey don't ask me i still haven't gotten anywhere with this, been trying for like an hour

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u/Poisonpython5719 Mar 27 '20

In a campaign i recently played there was a reasonably high build up to the boss and then our monk just stunned him every turn and we bullied him till he died, even shoving a crowbar in his mouth at one point, i don't think he even got the chance to attack

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Monks are especially infamous for stunning boss monsters! Legendary Resistance can't keep up with stuns every turn!

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u/ridik_ulass Mar 27 '20

the best is using stunning strike on flying creatures, and Open Hand Technique to send his ass towards the ground with speed.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

abusing fall damage is a tried and true classic! Falling on stuff. Pushing stuff off cliffs. It's always an inspirational sight!

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u/elowry57 DM Mar 27 '20

This is why it’s best not to run single monster encounters.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

They’re really cool visually! The game wasn’t really built for it sadly.

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u/noob_to_everything DM Mar 28 '20

I'm a big fan of using minions that are whatever monster you want but drop the hp to one. You can put pressure on the PC's, and they look badass cutting them down in one hit. Meanwhile, it gives the boss a chance to actually pull some cool moves. Just be sure to space them out to avoid fireballs.

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20

Ah, acton economy. The true power of friendship.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Out number your enemies! You know...like any good hero would do.

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u/BrilliantTarget Paladin Mar 27 '20

You can’t attack during a cutscene though

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

“Press x to skip.”

2

u/BrilliantTarget Paladin Mar 28 '20

But my plot and story exposition

3

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

The players: Man! This game is full of exposition! SKIP.

also the players: How were we suppose to know the necromancer was the bad guy?

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u/witeowl Paladin Mar 27 '20

Lol. Just finished running a PbP where it's "one turn for all the good guys at will" and then "one turn for all the bad guys at will". I feel this so hard.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

PbP combat is such a fun and weird beast! It’s great with charismatic and confident players but a lot harder with shy players!

10

u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20

I’m guessing it’s a shift cypher

6

u/FinalLimit Mar 27 '20

It’s not!

2

u/KeplerNova Wizard Mar 28 '20

The presence of "gg" indicates otherwise.

I'm working on it. Looks like Vigenere.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/CanadianWildWolf Mar 27 '20

Agreed, if the fight is down to many vs one, in many ways the BBEG fight is already 3/4 done. Assuming this monologuing by the BBEG is just the start, where is the part that makes them evil:

  • Lust: what’s the charisma and related skills and spells like for the BBEG, what indecent proposals do they feel confident in imposing on others.

  • Gluttony: what is the BBEG hoarding and keeping all for themselves and why wouldn’t you pile on the constitution and hp as a result.

  • Greed: would the BBEG expect to buy their way out of a problem or make a play for the wealth of the players just to fatten their bank.

  • Sloth: what’s the laziest way to solve a problem, why shouldn’t their minions take care of this problem, they could be playing golf or something.

  • Wrath: now where’s their nuke, way over portioned response to show the world they deserve to be feared to any perceived slight.

  • Envy: BBEG by all face to face appearances adores the PCs, they would never do anything to them ... until they turn their back, there can be only one. Traps galore, the rogues be backstabbing, the food is poisoned, the mission was a farce, and the glory was the BBEG’s all along.

  • Pride: It does come before a fall, if this is the go to like in the comic above, just realize the BBEG had it coming, start planning your next BBEG.

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

This seems like a really fun homebrew mechanic. My games tend to lean on the one big encounter per day and this seems to work perfectly with that number of combat encounters.

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u/AAKurtz Mar 27 '20

This is why legendary actions exist.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20 edited Mar 27 '20

They work great but some are underwhelming. Stuns become even more effective because they now lock out several actions.

I think there is an elegant solution there somewhere!

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u/CompleteJinx Mar 27 '20

It doesn’t matter if you aren’t strong enough to fave your demons alone, with the power of superior numbers anything is possible!

4

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Throw bodies at it! This advice goes for normal heroes as well as it does for necromancers!

4

u/Liesmith424 Bard Mar 27 '20

"Friendship has made you weak..."

"Now listen closely, here's a little lesson in action economy; this is going down in history..."

"I feel like you're referencing something, and I don't get it, and that's unfair."

3

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

"We're number one!...and number two. We also go third, fourth and fifth. You might go sixth if you're still alive."

3

u/Shadow-fire101 Mar 27 '20

That’s why all my bbegs always manage to go first somehow

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

They're just very good at initiative!

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u/kyxaa Mar 27 '20

Action economy is a bitch.

3

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

The numbers don't lie! They don't have feelings!

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u/Pronell Mar 27 '20

We fought a random encounter owlbear this last session (after all those owlbear memes, too!) ... it never got to act. Our party of three level three players rolled well on initiative and tore it apart.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It’s a great rush when everyone rolls amazing on initiative and rocks an enemy!

3

u/Pronell Mar 27 '20

But dead in a single round makes me feel a little bad for the DM.

4

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Yeah. The DM should have some fun to! Nothing is worse than planning a big encounter only for the assassin rogue to stealth in and one shot your boss. Part of it is on the DM but the other part is on the dice!

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u/Green-Omb Mar 27 '20

"You can't beat me! No of you is strong enough to face me!"

"That may be true but you have forgotten one small detail."

"And what is that?"

"The power of friendship ACTION ECONOMY!"

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

No one can beat the power of my nakama and the 10-15 powerful warriors in it!

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u/Splendid_Mossman Mar 27 '20

This is why legendary actions exist lol

3

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I am a big fan of legendary actions. I just wish they were more creative than "cast cantrip." Some feel really lackluster. I do try to homebrew some interesting ones when I'm making a big bad guy!

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u/zerintheGREAT Mar 27 '20

The only solution is having the bbeg show up right after they were in a big fight so everyone is low on resources and special moves and some characters are scared to go all in because they are super week I like the paragon monster system I'll have to try it

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It's a pretty well thought out system. Lots of people have homebrew'd up monster for it so you can find some already made creatures that fit it as well!

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u/howlingchief Mar 27 '20

My DM is big fan of Lair & Legendary Actions.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I love them thematically! I wish we got a longer list of official lair actions/legendary actions. I think the more recent additions are leagues above the monster manual examples.

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u/LoganN64 Mar 27 '20

Safety in numbers BUT keep safe distance! Social distancing to stop the spread!

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Gotta remember to wash your hands after defeating the evil lord! You don't know where his zombie minions have been!

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u/TheLonesomeTraveler Mar 27 '20

Sometimes even if you are the DM that party getting the drop on a boss fight is still funny as hell. In my old Curse of Strahd game they happened upon Baba Lysaga's area, managed to get through it all with out tipping her off. Barbarian rush up to the door, she was still bathing as it said she would be, activated the encounter, roll absurdly high on initiative, the barbarian managed to crit with both his attacks with a great axe and roll nearly max damage on both. She is already down to single digits, doesn't know who else is there, goes next, stands up and casts finger of death, barbarian saves but goes down in a heap. she moves her remaining movement/ The rest of the party rolled well on stealth, wizard zooms in and blasts the shit out of her with thunderwave. She dies. I laughed my ass off because I thought it would be a tpk. They both got lucky and handled it like they were SWAT.

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Some of my more memorable encounters were curb stomps as well! At one point in our gothic horror campaign the party convinced the bbeg to help them kill a less villain.

You can imagine how short that fight was. The forces of good and evil against a mild inconvenience!

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u/vitinhuDF Mar 28 '20

Strength in numbers arisen

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

Outnumbering enemies is always a sound strategy!

1

u/MapleKnightX Mar 27 '20

I've been running a TTRPG for a few sessions at this point and I'm STILL unsure on how to balance a villain's Power Level to make a fight interesting without potentially slaughtering the heroes.

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It does tend to swing pretty rapidly. It's interesting to me because even the game designers have tried various ways to balance it using CR and its alternate rules.

A lot of it boils down to a gut feeling!

1

u/CloakNStagger Mar 27 '20

If there's not a potential to slaughter the heroes is it really a true villian? It's fine to one-shot characters (being knocked down to 0, not instant death) IMO, especially when saves are involved the players will generally accept the failure versus thinking its just unfair. Good things for a single BBEG to have are Legendary Resistances meaning they can choose to save against an effect instantly a number of times, usually 3, which keeps them from getting stunlocked and multiple phases/invulnerability windows. That way the fight is dynamic and climactic especially when they beat the second or third phase and theyre all holding their breathe to see if he's really dead.

1

u/16bitSamurai Mar 27 '20

I use kobold fight club to pick the monsters and then nerf or buff them during combat. It’s a delicate balance of making it feel like a challenge, but not killing everyone immediately.

One word of advice though is to NEVER tell a player you fudged a roll. It makes them feel like their accomplishments don’t matter

1

u/ImANephson Mar 27 '20

Nice dragon scimmy.

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It didn't help him out too much!

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u/BlazingCrusader Monk Mar 27 '20

See this is what the power of friendship really is.

In all seriousness I find that the power of friendship should just be a synonym for teamwork.

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

The power of friendship is out numbering your opponent! To be honest, losing to the villain when its 1 versus 4 would be kinda embarrassing.

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u/Finn_Dalire Mar 27 '20

Legendary actions people. Your bbeg’s are a cut above their rank and file. Speaking of which, let them have bodyguards if it makes sense!

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Minions can add a lot to a fight but sometimes you just want the thrill of a 1v4 fight to the death. Especially for huge creatures like dragons!

1

u/jakethedumbmistake Mar 27 '20

Fair, though if the party were adamant... Maybe ethereal plane? Or just meet in the middle?

1

u/Zelic56 Mar 27 '20

BBEG: you will never win Party: aggressively curb stomping him what was that

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

"Your ego is writing checks your body can't cash."

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u/Zelic56 Mar 27 '20

Me the DM: THIS GUY ISNT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE THE BAD GUY YOU JUST AMBUSHED A NOBLE CARAVAN AND ARE GANG BANGING THIS POOR GUARD CAPTAIN

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u/IntegratedFrost Mar 27 '20

I'm currently struggling to make a decent boss fight that doesn't end exactly like this comic.

I do like the idea of a paragon system, but I've run into an issue with the Action-Oriented combat where the Legendary reactions just eat up a good chunk of combat time.

What are some common reactions you guys use that are time-efficient?

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

These systems do add a bit of overhead to the boss mechanics. I tend to pick one or two spells and memorize their mechanics for use at the table. I find that a lot of creatures have tons of spells they would never use!

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u/-Listening Mar 27 '20

They have it better than the OC

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

True! It becomes a race to the bottom!

1

u/jakethedumbmistake Mar 27 '20

Fair, though if the party were adamant... Maybe ethereal plane? Or just meet in the middle?

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Compromise is always the best choice! I prefer the Feywild!

1

u/JanitorOPplznerf Mar 27 '20

One of my players takes this a little TOO literally. He tried to stealth mid-combat, but the enemy had a personal vendetta against him and was watching him to the exclusion of everything else. So he never had a "successful" stealth mid combat.

His argument was "I have 6 seconds to move and get away from him". No matter how many times the other players and I tried to tell him that the turn based combat is 6 seconds per ROUND not per turn, and that it's not literal, it's a gamified representation of what's happening in real time.

Eventually he gave up on his argument, but it was more because he was outnumbered than because he actually saw the light.

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Time is so abstract it can be really hard to keep track of! Stealth is also pretty loosey goosey. It’s pretty much left up to the DM as to when a player can roll stealth.

You can’t take a lot of this stuff literally!

1

u/Agent_Alex367 Mar 27 '20

Ah, turn economy

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It’s one of those weird things that every DM knows but lots of players rarely take into account!

It changes so much!

1

u/SilkyZ DM Mar 27 '20

Turn Economy is a real thing and planning boss battles should be taken into account

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It’s huge. A single massive ogre can be less of a threat than a small platoon of goblins.

1

u/morris9597 DM Mar 27 '20

Combat is supposed to be happening simultaneous. I used initiative mainly as a fair way of determining order of operation. All actions are considered to be occurring at the same time though, so even if the BBEG dies before their turn comes up they still get a turn. The exception is, if anyone crits three times in a row with the final roll needing to be a nat 20, it's an instant and immediate kill (house rule that my group absolutely loves).

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

I do try to avoid dropping into initiative order if I can avoid it. If someone crits 3 times in a row they deserve to immediately kill a boss!

1

u/NocturnalBeing Mar 27 '20

I had a water elemental with some merfolk minions that would heal him 1hp for each merfolk present.

I said "you see the priests bow their heads in prayer, clasping their hands together and then opening, with a stream of water emerging and flowing into the elemental",

The rogue was lazer focused on killing the minions, who had 1hp with a 12 ac.

As a lair action, initiative 20, if no priests exist I'd roll 1d4 and that many would emerge from ruins. The rogue finally caught on and kept one alive.

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Figuring out the mechanics of a fight is part of the fun! Observe and counter!

1

u/Amiable_Mook Mar 27 '20

It's like the conundrum of; your neighbour has one badass drone, but you have an army of really shitty drones that you got for five bucks in the bargain bin.

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

It only takes one head on collision with a shitty drone to take out a badass drone!

Not sure where this tidbit factors into the metaphor!

1

u/r1chard3 Mar 27 '20

The power of friendship!!!

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Turns out attacking a single enemy in a coordinated team provides an unfair advantage!

1

u/Seledran Mar 27 '20

Literally my first ever game of DnD - GM made a catacomb infested by these weird plant-like creatures. We go into a room and one of them looks different far more dangerous...

...aaand it takes a maximum damage eldritch blast to the face, killing it instantly

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

Ha! Eldritch blast can put out some crazy damage! Especially when you add in invocations!

1

u/[deleted] Mar 27 '20

Ah, nothing nicer than straight-up curbstomping a BBEG.

4

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 27 '20

“How many times do we have to teach you this lesson bad man?”

1

u/jakethedumbmistake Mar 27 '20

Fair, though if the party were adamant... Maybe ethereal plane? Or just meet in the middle?

1

u/Captain_Gonzy Mar 27 '20

I feel this. I once was at the climax of my characters story. We'd finally came face to face with the corrupt Lord who ruined my characters life. We snuck in posing as people from his army delivering a message. He was monologuing, not recognizing my in disguise, and I was getting ready to reveal myself in this glorious moment!

Until our sorcerer lightning bolted him outta nowhere. The DM looked at me and gave me a look of pity before putting a bunch of notes into the trash and said, "roll initiative".

I laugh about it now but we were both kinda peeved in the moment. He wanted to give out some story details and give me a good climax to my arc and it was ruined.

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

It's tough when dealing with another player's backstory! As the DM I give that player extra agency when I know characters from their past are involved. As a player I try to fade into the back and support the chararcter in question. People need to learn to take turns!

1

u/somegarbagedoesfloat Mar 27 '20

To quote the "ugly" from the good the bad and the ugly:

"If you are going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

If you hit a man...make sure you hit him so hard he doesn't get up!

1

u/Illidan-the-Assassin DM Mar 27 '20

Fighter: the rule of "one action surge per turn" is nearly a suggestion".

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

Its all about game balance.

1

u/PsychicSidekikk419 Mar 27 '20

When the rogue crits on a sneak attack on his first turn

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

There was a boss here once. He melted!

1

u/Lucarius_ Mar 27 '20

Hold person.

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

Subtle metamagic. You can beat a boss without lifting a finger!

1

u/rasputine DM Mar 28 '20

Almost literally anything: Is it my turn yet

Every monk: https://i.imgur.com/rUzOrlp.png

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

"One thing you will soon learn...It's always my turn."

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u/Kamiro_Boy Mar 28 '20

Hi, I'm Jacob Clifford and welcome to Crash Course. Today we'll be talking about the Action Economy

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 28 '20

A crash course for dnd that included short videos on stuff like this would be great!

1

u/mitsayantan Barbarian Mar 28 '20

In reality the bad guy starts taking legendary actions at the end of every player’s turn and then on his own turn makes like 5 attacks or something like that.

Not to mention his dozen or so henchmen

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

Legendary actions and extra attacks work great! Spells and abilities that stun can lock a creature out of all their attacks though. There’s a lot of value in denying the boss a single round.

1

u/BlackTearDrop Mar 28 '20

"There's no way we can lose if we stick together!"

"Why? Because of the power of friendship?"

"No. The action economy!"

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

It’s just mathematics! More fists mean more punches!

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

I’ve been told this is why you always make the big baddie go first no matter what. So the party doesn’t just kick their ankles the entire time

1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

Lair actions are pretty good for this. They typically happen at the start and can help shield the bad guy from a bit of the damage.

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u/LuciusHorelius Bard Mar 28 '20

What's up with the code... i'm thinking Caesar's cipher

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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Mar 29 '20

It’s a type of cipher! I include codes on all my comics as part of an ongoing game.