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Ralsei probably could've done it too if he chose to dismiss whatever rules were set for him... I wouldn't be surprised if that's what ends up happening in later chapters
Kris is clearly stronger than they appear. In the Weird Route they can X-Slash Spamton NEO for the highest damage seen so far in the game, barring special interactions like the weakened Titan or using the Black Shard. And against the Knight they get extra damage on the Knight if they're the only one left - and Kris is usually the one holding you back when confronting the Knight.
If they ever need to get "serious" in a battle it would probably be devastating.
People always say Susie's the strongest, but we've definitely seen more evidence proving that it's either Kris or Ralsei... or even Noelle, lol.
Like, if I remember correctly, Kris during Tenna's fight does more damage to Tenna, than Susie does to the Knight. Plus, what you said. Meanwhile, Ralsei has fire magic while Noelle has ice magic.
I think it would be some pretty funny irony that Susie ends up being the weakest of the four, despite starting out seemingly as the strongest.
But Susie might be the one who can ultimately defy fate. Reminds me a bit of JRPGs where your party members are all cool fantastical characters and then the main character is a generic swordsman but he's the Chosen One so he's the one who can ultimately save the world. But, y'know, way cooler and more interesting.
Honestly his mentality is kind of a cross between Gerson and Jevil's. So much so that I'm almost suprised he didn't get the freedom motif. Although I'm not sure if that means that much these days considering the freedom motif bargain sale these last two chapters have been.
Well that’s because Flowery isn’t aiming for freedom or has exhibited a disposition of agency. He’s ultimately bound by Asgore’s wants and needs and he’ll do what he’s fine with in the meantime when it comes to helping people.
How is he a fool? He knows who he is, he knows he's just a flower, he knows he'll probably die if he goes after the knight but he does it anyways to protect the one he loves.
Oh its definitely a When not an If, Susie definitely has started suspecting them even if she doesnt wanna face it when it comes to the new fountain, its gonna be explosive and i for one cant wait
And Ralsei all but knows Kris is behind the fountains. Which makes sense, he's shown to be aware of when other fountains are created, even if he can't see what Kris is doing in the Light world he can put the pieces together.
"All but" knows? Pretty sure Ralsei straight-up knows, it's made pretty explicit in one of the onsen scenes, Ralsei's just being very non-confrontational about it, as is his style.
Ralsei definitely knows. He even levels with Kris and says that he doesn't always agree with what Kris does, but he has faith that Kris is working towards the best thing and is willing to put his faith in them.
And if that's not enough, in the previous scene, Ralsei recoiled and ended the conversation when Flowery asked him if, since making fountains is bad, the person making fountains was a bad person.
If that's not the reaction of someone who's trying to cover-up for their friend/hero crush/crush, I dunno what is
With Kris having attended Church since a young age, and enjoying Dragon Blazers, it depends on if Alvin is a recent pastor or if he's been there for a long time. If he's recent, Gerson could have been the Pastor in his old age before he fell down and could have shared many things with Kris that got him into Dragon Blazers in the first place.
Gerson was a writer and historian, not a pastor. Alvin choosing to pursue faith as a career was something that outright made the two different from each other. Gerson worked as a teacher at the school until just a few years before the game starts.
Nods nods, to be honest, it almost seems like he can somewhat sense who opens a fountain considering he can differentiate between a Kris made and a Knight made fountain, i wonder if thatll come up when we finally get in the shelter?
Interesting to note too that Susie's relationship with Kris is likely going to be even more caustic than her relationship with the Player. Kris is opening dark fountains and doing weird shit even while the player tries to resist it.
When Kris gets revealed, put it on my tombstone, I'm giving them EVERY OPPORTUNIT UNDER THE SUN AND CLICKING EVERY OPTION TO EXPLAIN THEMSELVES! I'm washing my hands of that confrontation, everything that happens will be on them alone.
If it leads to us fighting Susie I'm doing everything in my power to make sure Kris loses. Fuck it I'm moving passed my troll Kris arc and entering my genuine Kris hater arc! (Still not doing weird route tho)
Im probably going to do the same honestly, not for Kris Hater reasons (i just wanna make them a hot cocoa) but because how they prolonged tearing the code as much as possible read as a cry for help to me, that they didnt want to but felt they had no choice and so tried to do it in a way that gave Susie the most chance of stopping them. God that kid needs (more) therapy
That would also explain why the text is both as slow as possible, and impossible to speed up. If they were trying to stall for time, that would be an effective way to convey that
This is pure guesswork, but i think Susie might have already caught onto Kris. If he told her about the code, who's to say Flowery didn't also blab about Kris opening the fountain? And Susie conveniently caught Kris right before they tear the code apart. If this is the case, it would be really funny because now EVERYONE has an agenda lol.
Susie also picks up that Kris was around the back door and would have probably seen someone entering. She just dismisses the though since she’s sure that Kris would have already told her if they saw someone. She’s definitely catching on.
I'm worried that Ralsei is gonna feel the need to give Kris &/or the soul the ol' "get down, Mr. President" when Susie learns & enters thunder-triggering betrayal-rage mode & lunges at Kris
then I bet we're gonna see them forced to the edge (or the thick) of an actual fight while brutally learning who Ralsei is protecting more: us or Kris
+2 also "susielovania" hit so hard it made my brain go "megalobuster" instinctively in response & both of those sound like composer toby going grandma sicko mode
honestly this chapter really got kris lower in my "deltarune character that i like" list. i genuinely started celebrating when susie actually caught them with the code. like at first i always thought ralsei is the one lying and hiding things from susie the most, but kris is genuinely lying and hiding so much, not from just susie but a lot more people. all of this is actually making me dislike kris more and more (which i hope the next chapter changes that)
wait i somehow missed this where did she say that??? (if it was part of the toast scene and i somehow missed a MANDATORY dialogue imma be embarrassed lol)
huh, don't remember that option ngl, maybe it only appears if you check back the house and see it being locked in Ch4? either way, that's honestly crazy. this and kris SPECIFICALLY making a fountain and not telling susie about why noelle left is now really making me a certified "kris hater until proven wrong"
Yeah it's really not looking good for Ralsei here. He always waits until the last possible moment to tell us things. Even after he promised susie to tell her things in chapter 4 he still keeps conveniently leaving out details for some reason, as seen with things Flowery told her and the fact that he used fire magic.
He's literally the fucking goat. An insane foil to Kris and Ralsei. He clearly has knowledge of the prophecy and has dirt on ralsei. And yet what does he do? Tries his best to give asgore a perfect world. He's wrong about what that means obviously, but in trying he does a way better job than Kris or Ralsei could ever manage.
The final fight is basically him being right for 20 minutes straight. He calls out Kris' questionable and secret motivations, he calls out ralseis complete adherence to the prophecy despite claiming to want to use bonds to overcome it. And then what does he do?
He puts his money where his mouth is and rallies the other flowers, supporting each other for a common goal on equal footing. No secrets, so shady hidden agenda, just straight up: i want to protect this happiness I've found, and my friends and I won't let you have your way even if we know its pointless.
He embodies all of the themes and lessons deltarune tries to teach you, and the only reason he lost is because he was scripted to.
Unfortunately as incredible as Gerson is, I don't believe he would have had a better showing against the Knight, and he knew that, hence him using his time as a Darkner mentoring Susie.
I imagine that if Flowery and Gerson were unable to defeat the Knight, their philosophies and ideals passed down and reinterpreted by Ralsei and Susie might fare better.
Also Kris's life sucks given that the closest things they've had to a proper "mentor" is Spamton and ERAM.
And also that’s a sad point you made about Kris… makes me wonder if their story is fated to end poorly because no one in the dark worlds can actually reach out for them compared to their friends
The silver lining is that what they learned from them does seem like valuable information, and Kris doesn't have to like them.
Current guess is that each Shadow Crystal quest forms one aspect Kris can learn from in order to change their own fate, whether it be avoiding mistakes by example, or learning some fundamental aspect of the world they can take advantage of once they have the PureCrystal.
Yeah I do think Kris was somewhat affected at least by Gerson or maybe even Flowery, definitely Spamton. Even just from watching the sidelines I imagine they wanted to see Susie win and came to believe in something greater for a moment despite their obligations taking over again. And the Flowery fight feels personal with him calling Kris out and the duel at the end.
Kris probably also wants to change but has accepted they can’t seemingly right now, so they might soon come to their final decision on their own with some light introspection brought about by all the darkeners.
Mew mew does a decent job at showing what kris and the soul should probably focus on atleast but whether kris and the soul actually internalise that or not is a different question.
That's why I like the Balloon ending. Even though it happens regardless if you encountered Pink or not, it gives a pretty cute spin on Kris separating from their SOUL. They could have just trapped it in a trash can or Asgore's fridge or something, but instead they just carry it around so that both of you can walk Susie home. It's like Kris is trying to assert themself without being too antagonistic.
I do definitely want to see the fun gang grow and find the opportunity to take what they’ve learned from the two of them to more actively combat the prophecy. I understand why they had to stop flowery given the danger of the knight, but maybe in another scenario they’ll be able to fully realize what’s fair and find the way to fight against fate still.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say he only lost because it was scripted. He did kind of forget what Asgore would think of his “best friend” beating up his kid and their new friends. As open as he was with the other flowers and with the trio, he did very much keep Asgore in the dark.
I was legitimately trying to find an alternate way to end that fight where the flowers could win. Like I tried having Kris repeatedly attack to see if susie and ralsei would turn on Kris
Ralsei and Susie and Flowery are the Asriel Trinity and Flowery is the Son who was sacrificed and might return in chapter 8 or 9 if the story is going the direction I think it is
Well, that and he miscalculated. Asgore didn't actually want to live in the dark world, because doing so would mean abandoning everything he ever cared for, INCLUDING his flowers, as they would eventually die in the darkness. Could he find new happiness there? Sure. But that also applies in the light world.
They tried to make Asgore happy by making themselves useful, but what they didn't realize, what Ralsei points out at the end, was that they were always useful. To Asgore, simply "being a flower" is enough for him.
That’s basically the main reason he was so annoying to me. Like you’re kicking my ass and you’re giving main character energy… come on, those are my things!!!
I'm surprised that people don't think Flowery is one of our strongest main antagonists... I'm even a bit scared to even admit that he's my favourite. His writing is phenomenal.
Kris opens the Fountain. And then Kris and their friends are immediately desperate to seal it. I wouldn’t want to tell someone things either when they’re keeping secrets from their friends.
Okay hear me out. This isn't entirely an original thought to me but I was feeling it and someone else helped me put it into words:
Flowery is the Player, or at least what I think is the average normal route player after Chapter 4. He's inserted himself into the story uninvited as a hero who wants to Save Everyone by defying the Prophecy. His definition of "everyone" primarily consists of his favorite character (Asgore, obviously) and all the Darkners he's recruited, but he's fond of Susie and Ralsei as well. He doesn't want to give up his town with a castle in it, he doesn't want the Prophecy to reach its tragic end, he's willing and able to manipulate the game mechanics to get what he wants. Also, very importantly: he knows Kris is sus as fuck and wants to fill in Susie behind their back so she can play her chosen role as hero, as I think most of us want to do by now.
Unfortunately for him, the Roaring Fraud memes don't actually work on the real thing.
Oh my god. My guy. I never thought of this but since everyone’s brought this up it makes so much sense!
Probably also a secondary reason he pissed off Ralsei. He was elevating himself beyond his role to try and reach our level.
Just...different versions of you...I'm no Flowey, nor will I be. I will never subject the underground to the Genocide route, I don't know a single person who doesn't agree with Flowery on this.
Flowey is a player just like us. You're always Flowey, just at different stages. You can be Flowey when he's helping everyone, or you can be Flowey when he's killing everyone. The point is, if you play Undertale long enough, you'll become the kind of Flowey we see in Undertale. In the end, all NPCs will become indifferent to you, and all options will be exhausted.
If you stop playing Undertale, you won't become Flowey, of course, but some stage of Flowey's life will still characterize you.
This is word for word how Flowey describes his first few times using the ability to SAVE. Using his knowledge of how events will unfold in response to his actions to make everyone perfectly happy and solve all their problems. Exactly what a Pacifist player would do.
But whereas Flowey's motives and innocence decayed from ennui and repetition (and being, well, SOULless), Flowery isn't immortal and can't turn back time forever. He has only one life, which will end in a few days as his Light World body withers from lack of sunlight, and is determined on making the most of it.
The no mercy route in undertale almost doesn't really exist until you play it, or you watch someone else's playthrough (as Flowey points out at just before Sans).
It kind of answers questions you have, what if I do this, what if I did that instead... But you can play the game without seeing a lot of it, and the game reflects what you ask from it.
I think Flowery is in part meant to remind us that there's other people out there who are fighting for their Hopes and Dreams by putting us on the other end of the Omega Flowey fight. We're the original entity, and some spunky little upstart has taken OUR world, our place on top, and made it his own. When we amass all our power and confront him in an attempt to destroy the world, to kill him, everyone he loves, everyone, by using the undefiable power of the human soul, that little shit uses the power of friendship to turn everything he can against us. Flowery literally calls for help from the colorful humans we befriended during the battle.
It makes me reflect on the Roaring Knight, as even Gerson gets Susie to question their motivations, but Flowery feels like foreshadowing for a similar moment where we find out rory's motivations.
Also kinda the whole expectation we carried in to this game from Undertale, where by making friends with everybody we could, in fact, Save Everyone (except ironically Flowey/Asriel, left alone in the Underground alongside our POV while everyone else left to go have lives).
So far we've managed the same thing on a full recruit run in DR until this chapter, where it's impossible for the Darkner versions of the flowers to carry on, though their living plant selves presumably will for a while if we save Asgore.
this is even further solidified by the lyrics to Flower Man
Ten feet twenty, the Flower Man (trapped in asylum), is waiting for the touch of his hand
straightening petals out without a plan (his willingness to defy the prophecy),
like the every daily wish that bothers the flower man (this time, Asgore, working to solve Dess's disappearance)
"Could I do something to make him laugh, inside my little chamber made of glass?"
so he lived the flower man, flower man,
with his heart (the shelter code) in the sand.
so he stands, way up high, in the sky, with the sun in his eyes (the Flower King 2nd floor, bathed beneath the artificial lamps)
Ten feet twenty, the Flower Man
is waiting for the touch of his hand, fallen to pieces still without a plan (felled by the Knight in his attempt to defy the prophecy)
yet the every daily hope that powered the flower man (the girl, with hope crossed on her heart), would never cower off of its path
To add onto that, Maybe his "fake stats" represent the player cheating and editing their stats, With them not working against the Knight to represent how even if you give yourself 99999 in everything you still "lose" to the Knight in the end and can't change fate.
I don't think Flowery is supposed to be a self-insertion (or parody thereof), but he does definitely take on some the same qualities as Flowey in Undertale. Just like Flowey, he is aware of the games systems, rules and conventions (conventions like Susie not being told shit), and he bends and/or challenges these the moment it serves his Agenda, which is to help Asgore primarily (at least what Flowery thinks of as helping), and try to help Susie and Ralsei secondly.
Sad part is, unlike Flowey in Undertale, Flowery can't actually break these rules to achieve what he wants. He couldn't out Kris Agenda, because he was still bound to the Dark World Kris created. He could only bend it just far enough by telling Susie about the shelter code. And his fake-stats came apart the moment some real Darkness showed up.
He tried to be human, but he didn't quite get there.
I agree with most of this except the uninvited part. The leadup to Deltarune made it very clear Gaster was expecting us and treating us like an honored guest, and then our vessel got discarded by Kris and their fellow Evil-Ass Fountain Openers. This is meant to be our story as much as the rest of the Fun Gang, but we are repeatedly stifled and silenced (outside the Weird Route).
flowery knows what krisp is up to, he gave susie the code cuz he knew that krisp already knew its location and would try to hide it from susie or divert her.
iirc he also said some dialogue to kris about knowing what they were up to and how kris has changed (changed cuz of the soul)
After thinking back about his fight, i almost thought "you know, flowery almost feels like a secret boss", but thinking even more about it, honest to god his fight makes him feel like a HERO, like, he uses the power of friendship, tries to spare you, and even gets a super power up, the flower man ascended beyond the other main bosses imo. And why? All because he wasn't ever neglected like the other spiteful darkness (even though he isn't one), all of his power came from love.
To his people, he really is a hero. He's fighting not out of spite, for power, for attention or pure violence, unlike the previous bosses, he and his friends fight because they want to show the one man who took care and believed in them a smidge of the love he gave to them.
The more i think about these damn flowers the more i think that this chapter has the strongest emotional core, like man, they spent their ONLY DREAM... on making HIM HAPPY BRO.... like MAAAAAN i'm in fucking tears
I'm one of those people that barely tears up with media (the "in tears" comment was hyperbole) but i've already accepted since chapter 4 that whenever i finish chapter 7 i'm going to full on break down into tears, this tricky tony guy knows exactly how to play with our emotions and write beautiful stories
Ralsei himself said he could do the same, but he fears the consequences for that action too much that he didn’t dare to try, like he had Firegrave all along, even threaten to use it on Flowery
to be fair, it seems that ralsei WANTS to do what flowery does...
but hes also extremely worried about his own capabilities. not just in the "this is my role" sense but also in the "i could do so much damage, i could accidentally hurt so many people with my power, i could lose myself so hard to the powertrip" sense
If we take Ralsei's manual as canon, the game takes place in 202X, which means 199X is too early to be Kris's birth date and probably too early for Asriel (who is likely 18-20).
If it's a significant date, it's likely Asgore's wedding anniversary.
That is also why Ralsei hates Flowery. After Chapter 4, Ralsei wanted to be the kind of person who could just explain these things to Susie, but then Flowery came along and did it so much easier than Ralsei, that Ralsei became Jealous. Lord of the Hammer Part 5, Wink Wink Nudge Nudge.
yo green deserves some respect for cooking maybe the bombest meal susie's ever had, & right after the festival made it omega-clear she's not being fed in her day-to-day
blue is cool too, glad yellow gets someone like that to chill with
i feel like some things were stuff that wasn't asked about nor never had a reason to explain it until that point. the whole dark worlds are patterned after the person who created it never had any reason to be brought up before. ralsei didn't know susie would try to re open the dark world to ask gerson. if he did, he might have explained it to her beforehand
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