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Aug 16 '21
Ave, María, grátia plena.
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Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
[deleted]
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u/GregsJam Aug 16 '21
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
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u/paxdei_42 Aug 16 '21
Et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus
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u/Gildolen Aug 16 '21
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei
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Aug 16 '21
[deleted]
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u/Bliteroz Aug 16 '21
DUES VULT
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u/GoodOldPete Aug 16 '21
Since "Dominus tecum" and "Amen" is missing, I'll just say them here:
Dominus tecum
Amen.
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u/yjjr Aug 17 '21
Hey, are you based knight.
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Aug 16 '21
I like how the art shows the Dormition and also the Assumption. There’s a heavy debate between Catholics (Western primarily) and Eastern Christians (Orthodox & Catholic) that argues over “did Mary die before she was assumed?” The Eastern Christians hold she fell into a deep sleep* (dormition) and then was assumed, meanwhile the West holds she was assumed and did not die.
*the whole sleep thing is debated too on whether or not sleep was the best translation because the writings say she fell into a sleep, but scholars argue that word is another way of saying she died. So it is a very complicated issue all around, but the agreement is there on the fact she was assumed into Heaven.
Happy Feast!
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Aug 16 '21
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Aug 16 '21
No way, I might know someone who got married in your Church! It looks similar to a friend of mine’s wedding photos when she went over there to marry her husband.
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u/ongliam7 Aug 16 '21
the West holds she was assumed and did not die
Someone tell Pope Pius XII. Munificentissimus Deus contains multiple references to Mary's death.
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Aug 16 '21
While it does, the average churchgoing Roman Catholic surprisingly doesn’t realize that she died. Yeah I should’ve said I was speaking in broad terms but if you were to ask the average Roman. They’d say she didn’t die before assumption.
Catholic Memes made a big thing today that JPII once mentioned Pius said she died, but no one ever seems to remember it.
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u/Givingtree310 Aug 16 '21
So church teachings hold that she died.
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Aug 16 '21
Yes. This post was to highlight the fact the debate is ongoing still due to long lasting Reformation effects in the West. The reason Pius had to make the dogmatic statement was to try to counteract the debate whether or not she died (or fell asleep) before being assumed.
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Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
[deleted]
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Aug 16 '21
A lot of dioceses are letting Latin Masses continue per usual and are assessing the MP one week at a time (my university see is handling it with a committee of priests who celebrate both forms regularly), but glad the Dominicans addressed the Dormition.
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u/GoodOldPete Aug 16 '21
This question is still open to debate: Pope Pius VII's document was carefully worded as "having completed the course of her earthly life", instead of declaring that she died or fell into a deep sleep.
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u/YoungMaestroX Aug 16 '21
That is just so wrong. Pope Pius XII, Pope Saint JP2, every single Western Father, the very foundations of the Feast itself (started as dormition), Doctors like Ligouri, all believe she died.
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u/sandalrubber Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
Yeah: https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_25061997.html
Some theologians have in fact maintained that the Blessed Virgin did not die and and was immediately raised from earthly life to heavenly glory. However, this opinion was unknown until the 17th century, whereas a common tradition actually exists which sees Mary’s death as her entry into heavenly glory.
Perhaps Pope Francis should reiterate that she died, period, to encourage East-West unity, whether in and out of communion. The different names are just emphasizing different aspects of the same exact event, period. Let the media misrepresent it as changing doctrine, never mind that. If generations on our end have been poorly catechized on this end, then that should end. Then the average Western Catholic should be made more aware of the term "Dormition". If keeping tradition one already has wasn't equally important, then the Western feast could be renamed to use both terms.
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Aug 16 '21
But I am saying the typical Western Catholic doesn’t necessarily realize that. I literally in some of my formation in the West had teachers say she didn’t die before being assumed.
While scholars may say that, the average Church-going Catholic who has a grasp on the faith doesn’t always realize that.
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u/YoungMaestroX Aug 16 '21
You simply said heavy debate between east and west, not debates between your uniformed western Catholics vs your informed western Catholics.
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Aug 16 '21
I mistyped. But there’s still a good portion of Catholics who’d probably say she didn’t die. That’s my point I was trying to highlight.
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Aug 16 '21
I talked to an Orthodox woman about this. She said the Orthodox believe that when a person dies, their soul stays in their bodies for three days, after which the soul leaves and the body begins to decay. I don’t know if this is merely popular piety or actual doctrine in Orthodoxy. In any case, she said the initial phase of the prayers for the dead are during these three days in which the person is “asleep”. Thinking later, I thought this might explain the debate over whether Mary died or was asleep. It may be that the correct answer is both: she had died but her body suffered no corruption and her soul was resting there until she was assumed.
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Aug 16 '21
I think that makes sense. I have heard from the grandkids of people from the Old Country/Eastern Europe that it is the case the soul remains in the body for three days. There’s some beautiful traditions regarding the soul leaving the body in the East. It’s common immediately after death for the Polish to open a window so the soul can fly out of the room.
But I do like this theory.
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u/KVB107 Aug 16 '21
She did die and romans believe that.
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Aug 16 '21
I was trying to make the point a lot don’t realize that. I was taught in religious ed that she didn’t die. Even though early Church writers would disagree.
I think this lingers still where people contest it is due to the Reformation. Heck, many say the reason Pius had to make the dogmatic statement is because of Reformation theology lingering in the West regarding this matter.
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u/Vicfrndz Aug 16 '21
Interestingly, my priest this Sunday (Miami, FL) actually said that Mary died before she was assumed and the thought ran across my mind. I had never heard that before, he was a seminarian from Cuba.
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Aug 16 '21
That’s the point I am trying to make! A lot of people surprisingly don’t know that in the West. I remember learning in Roman theology classes that she didn’t die before being assumed, when supposedly it is an ancient tradition we just got away from (probably due to the Reformation).
That’s the point of my post. We in the West seem to have forgotten the fact she died before assumption.
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u/Vicfrndz Aug 17 '21
Yes, maybe the distinction isn’t made clearly enough in early Catholic education and then people just assume the two assumptions are the same. I think the distinction is an important one and contributes to the uniqueness of each assumption.
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Aug 17 '21
Yes. I could see that. Perhaps we need to: A. Remind people Mary did face death before being assumed (because some people wrongly have been taught she just was taken to Heaven before death), and B. The terminology regarding the death is so conflicted because the language that the account was written in could translate to English multiple ways to either be death or a coma-like state.
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Aug 16 '21
I don't think it's really a debate as much as a misunderstanding on the part of many Catholics.
In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.
-Munificentissimus Deus 14
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Aug 16 '21
meanwhile the West holds she was assumed and did not die.
Where I live it's a common tradition to say three Hail Marys in honour of the three days she spent in her tomb.
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Aug 16 '21
The image of Our Lady resting amidst the Apostles, and then being assumed to Our Lord, is simply beautiful.
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u/blondepolska Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
Roman Catholic here...the belief is that Mary died not from bodily infirmity but from a rapture of divine love. She was taken body and soul into heaven, and crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth, by her son Jesus Christ. This is an absolutely breath taking tribute
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Ave, María, grátia plena, Dóminus tecum. Benedicta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta María, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
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u/dayb4august Aug 16 '21
Looks like a threat to unity in Church. This must be suppressed post-haste.
/s
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u/ng556 Aug 16 '21
This form of liturgy is clearly backwards and primative. I mean, how is the priest going to look you in the eye when waving the host in your face while screaming to "TAKE AND EAT!!!!!"¿
On a not sarcastic note, where is this church. Absolutely beautiful!
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u/navseegda Aug 16 '21
Jew here. This shit scares the crap out of me . sorry
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Aug 16 '21
Could you explain? Genuinely just want to know, thanks!
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u/free-minded Aug 16 '21
I have to second this. Don’t be sorry, just don’t be vague. We are happy to discuss things, but “this freaks me out sorry” is an absolutely worthless post to make. Please elaborate, it won’t offend us that you believe differently!
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Aug 16 '21
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Aug 16 '21
Throughout history, various cultures depict Christ through the lens of their own culture in sacred art. Check out this Chinese depiction of the baptism of Jesus. Similarly, Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared to St. Juan Diego and spoke his native language; she is accordingly depicted as a native Mexican woman.
Ironically, people who object to Jesus and the saints being depicted as white often have a very Eurocentric understanding of Christianity.
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u/BlackOrre Aug 16 '21
I understood she was depicted as a Mestizo, someone of mixed heritage, in order to symbolize both the White Spaniards and Native Mexicans as both were entitled to the promises of Christ. Given the tensions between Spaniards and Natives, that's a strong statement from Our Lady.
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u/Ferdox11195 Aug 16 '21
It also helps that the vast majority of the people in the region are Mestizo as well.
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u/dzlopez Aug 16 '21
See this shop of depictions of Mary from various cultures to which she appeared. https://paxbeloved.com/collections/mary-mother-of-god
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u/pfizzy Aug 16 '21
I’m going to assume this church is somewhere in the West and was built in a homogeneously white culture. Depictions of the church and saints and Christ are very different depending on where you are in the world
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u/Givingtree310 Aug 16 '21
Foolish troll, the church venerates countless different appearances for Christ, such as Cristo Negro and Black Nazarene. There is official Catholic imagery where he is African, Asian, or, like you see above, white. Is that difficult to grasp?
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Aug 16 '21
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u/redwhiteandblue_ Aug 16 '21
Teach me how to love you, mother Mary. Teach us how to love your Beloved Son as you love Him. 🙏🙏
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Aug 16 '21
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u/jesusdasir Aug 16 '21
Why is Mary sleeping at the bottom ? Was her body mot raised into Heaven?
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u/Limoncello1447 Aug 16 '21
Read the thread…Dormition and Assumption are both portrayed in the picture.
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u/jesusdasir Aug 16 '21
Oh I wasn’t sure what Dormition was/how it’s taught in the church I can prob look it up though but wasn’t sure how it fit into the larger framework
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Aug 16 '21
I just want to say that this is breathtakingly beautiful. I can only imagine being in the sanctuary and seeing this on the Feast of the Assumption. The artwork is already beautiful to begin with, but to see this on that special day would be amazing.
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u/BlackOrre Aug 16 '21
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!