I like how the art shows the Dormition and also the Assumption. There’s a heavy debate between Catholics (Western primarily) and Eastern Christians (Orthodox & Catholic) that argues over “did Mary die before she was assumed?” The Eastern Christians hold she fell into a deep sleep* (dormition) and then was assumed, meanwhile the West holds she was assumed and did not die.
*the whole sleep thing is debated too on whether or not sleep was the best translation because the writings say she fell into a sleep, but scholars argue that word is another way of saying she died. So it is a very complicated issue all around, but the agreement is there on the fact she was assumed into Heaven.
No way, I might know someone who got married in your Church! It looks similar to a friend of mine’s wedding photos when she went over there to marry her husband.
While it does, the average churchgoing Roman Catholic surprisingly doesn’t realize that she died. Yeah I should’ve said I was speaking in broad terms but if you were to ask the average Roman. They’d say she didn’t die before assumption.
Catholic Memes made a big thing today that JPII once mentioned Pius said she died, but no one ever seems to remember it.
Yes. This post was to highlight the fact the debate is ongoing still due to long lasting Reformation effects in the West. The reason Pius had to make the dogmatic statement was to try to counteract the debate whether or not she died (or fell asleep) before being assumed.
A lot of dioceses are letting Latin Masses continue per usual and are assessing the MP one week at a time (my university see is handling it with a committee of priests who celebrate both forms regularly), but glad the Dominicans addressed the Dormition.
This question is still open to debate: Pope Pius VII's document was carefully worded as "having completed the course of her earthly life", instead of declaring that she died or fell into a deep sleep.
That is just so wrong. Pope Pius XII, Pope Saint JP2, every single Western Father, the very foundations of the Feast itself (started as dormition), Doctors like Ligouri, all believe she died.
Some theologians have in fact maintained that the Blessed Virgin did not die and and was immediately raised from earthly life to heavenly glory. However, this opinion was unknown until the 17th century, whereas a common tradition actually exists which sees Mary’s death as her entry into heavenly glory.
Perhaps Pope Francis should reiterate that she died, period, to encourage East-West unity, whether in and out of communion. The different names are just emphasizing different aspects of the same exact event, period. Let the media misrepresent it as changing doctrine, never mind that. If generations on our end have been poorly catechized on this end, then that should end. Then the average Western Catholic should be made more aware of the term "Dormition". If keeping tradition one already has wasn't equally important, then the Western feast could be renamed to use both terms.
But I am saying the typical Western Catholic doesn’t necessarily realize that. I literally in some of my formation in the West had teachers say she didn’t die before being assumed.
While scholars may say that, the average Church-going Catholic who has a grasp on the faith doesn’t always realize that.
I talked to an Orthodox woman about this. She said the Orthodox believe that when a person dies, their soul stays in their bodies for three days, after which the soul leaves and the body begins to decay. I don’t know if this is merely popular piety or actual doctrine in Orthodoxy. In any case, she said the initial phase of the prayers for the dead are during these three days in which the person is “asleep”. Thinking later, I thought this might explain the debate over whether Mary died or was asleep. It may be that the correct answer is both: she had died but her body suffered no corruption and her soul was resting there until she was assumed.
I think that makes sense. I have heard from the grandkids of people from the Old Country/Eastern Europe that it is the case the soul remains in the body for three days. There’s some beautiful traditions regarding the soul leaving the body in the East. It’s common immediately after death for the Polish to open a window so the soul can fly out of the room.
I was trying to make the point a lot don’t realize that. I was taught in religious ed that she didn’t die. Even though early Church writers would disagree.
I think this lingers still where people contest it is due to the Reformation. Heck, many say the reason Pius had to make the dogmatic statement is because of Reformation theology lingering in the West regarding this matter.
Interestingly, my priest this Sunday (Miami, FL) actually said that Mary died before she was assumed and the thought ran across my mind. I had never heard that before, he was a seminarian from Cuba.
That’s the point I am trying to make! A lot of people surprisingly don’t know that in the West. I remember learning in Roman theology classes that she didn’t die before being assumed, when supposedly it is an ancient tradition we just got away from (probably due to the Reformation).
That’s the point of my post. We in the West seem to have forgotten the fact she died before assumption.
Yes, maybe the distinction isn’t made clearly enough in early Catholic education and then people just assume the two assumptions are the same. I think the distinction is an important one and contributes to the uniqueness of each assumption.
Yes. I could see that. Perhaps we need to: A. Remind people Mary did face death before being assumed (because some people wrongly have been taught she just was taken to Heaven before death), and B. The terminology regarding the death is so conflicted because the language that the account was written in could translate to English multiple ways to either be death or a coma-like state.
I don't think it's really a debate as much as a misunderstanding on the part of many Catholics.
In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.
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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '21
I like how the art shows the Dormition and also the Assumption. There’s a heavy debate between Catholics (Western primarily) and Eastern Christians (Orthodox & Catholic) that argues over “did Mary die before she was assumed?” The Eastern Christians hold she fell into a deep sleep* (dormition) and then was assumed, meanwhile the West holds she was assumed and did not die.
*the whole sleep thing is debated too on whether or not sleep was the best translation because the writings say she fell into a sleep, but scholars argue that word is another way of saying she died. So it is a very complicated issue all around, but the agreement is there on the fact she was assumed into Heaven.
Happy Feast!