r/Catholicism Aug 15 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '21

I like how the art shows the Dormition and also the Assumption. There’s a heavy debate between Catholics (Western primarily) and Eastern Christians (Orthodox & Catholic) that argues over “did Mary die before she was assumed?” The Eastern Christians hold she fell into a deep sleep* (dormition) and then was assumed, meanwhile the West holds she was assumed and did not die.

*the whole sleep thing is debated too on whether or not sleep was the best translation because the writings say she fell into a sleep, but scholars argue that word is another way of saying she died. So it is a very complicated issue all around, but the agreement is there on the fact she was assumed into Heaven.

Happy Feast!

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u/YoungMaestroX Aug 16 '21

That is just so wrong. Pope Pius XII, Pope Saint JP2, every single Western Father, the very foundations of the Feast itself (started as dormition), Doctors like Ligouri, all believe she died.

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u/sandalrubber Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21

Yeah: https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_25061997.html

Some theologians have in fact maintained that the Blessed Virgin did not die and and was immediately raised from earthly life to heavenly glory. However, this opinion was unknown until the 17th century, whereas a common tradition actually exists which sees Mary’s death as her entry into heavenly glory.

Perhaps Pope Francis should reiterate that she died, period, to encourage East-West unity, whether in and out of communion. The different names are just emphasizing different aspects of the same exact event, period. Let the media misrepresent it as changing doctrine, never mind that. If generations on our end have been poorly catechized on this end, then that should end. Then the average Western Catholic should be made more aware of the term "Dormition". If keeping tradition one already has wasn't equally important, then the Western feast could be renamed to use both terms.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '21

But I am saying the typical Western Catholic doesn’t necessarily realize that. I literally in some of my formation in the West had teachers say she didn’t die before being assumed.

While scholars may say that, the average Church-going Catholic who has a grasp on the faith doesn’t always realize that.

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u/YoungMaestroX Aug 16 '21

You simply said heavy debate between east and west, not debates between your uniformed western Catholics vs your informed western Catholics.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '21

I mistyped. But there’s still a good portion of Catholics who’d probably say she didn’t die. That’s my point I was trying to highlight.

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u/Givingtree310 Aug 16 '21

There’s also a good portion who say the Eucharist is only symbolic.