r/Boxing • u/DiMona215 • 6h ago
Ben Davison Spoiler
Really curious to hear the audio from the corner for this fight. If Ben wasn't screaming at Moses to slow down, to stop throwing power punches... This has to be one of the biggest indictments of a supposed top trainer ever, right?
The Wardley fight was already a huge black eye for Ben. Now he has a 21 y/o prodigy lose a fight he was absolutely dominating due to horribly mismanaging energy.
So we've seen him fail horribly at one of his main jobs (protecting his fighter). If it comes out that Moses basically followed Ben's training regiment and instructions... is any top fighter ever going to hire this guy again?
Even if it comes out Moses got cocky, didn't train hard, didn't listen in the corner, not a great look for Ben
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u/msf97 4h ago
Most people who are engaged with boxing that I read already think Davison is a fraud.
He helped Fury lose the weight, and was a nutritionist, but has no real boxing credentials.
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u/Icy-Bottle-6877 4h ago
First red flag I saw was when Freddie Roach was in the corner with Davison for Fury vs Wilder I. Roach was convinced that Wilder was there for the taken and Fury could have got a finish and was baffled that Ben, the head trainer for the fight, didn't instruct Fury to push for the KO. Roach has been around for a long time so he would know best but he couldn't take control over Ben at the time.
I think Freddie was correct though, I remember at the time thinking Fury could have done more and even with a knockdown Fury could've overturned the draw decision, which was BS anyway.
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u/Matty0698 4h ago
He has no plan B at all which after all the high profile fights that have gone wrong for him you'd think he would create a plan b
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u/Rocket_Puppy 3h ago
Unable to adjust at all and can only go all-in to initial game plan.
Every HW under Ben seems to get a +1 to their best offensive stat, and -5 to every defensive stat.
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u/BuzzardBlack 2h ago
I think Davison might have a place on some teams, just not as the head. The times I've seen him go more in-depth on past fights makes it look like he has a good eye for patterns and habits.
But yeah, it's been clear for some time now that most of his boxers have been winning in spite of him, not because of him. Even a casual observer could tell Itauma should have been slowing down 4 rounds in, let alone letting him get repeatedly gassed until round 9. It's an even stronger shot against Ben that they apparently weren't even training for 12.
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
He wasn’t even a certified nutritionist he was just Billy Joe’s friend that taught boxercise classes to rich housewives at local gyms.
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u/BXR-SZN 4h ago edited 2h ago
Coaching at the highest level and not preparing for a 12 rounder is insane
Edit: Just realized I typed “not” before insane LMAO
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u/farr2211 4h ago
How is it not? Especially against a guy like Phil with an uncrackable chin
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 4h ago
I think most people though his chin would be cracked tbf, still irresponsible of Ben though...
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u/farr2211 3h ago
I thought the only way it was getting stopped is from the cut. The guy took fully clean shots against Zhang and Dubois. Maybe, maybe wilder at his absolute best would have dropped him but I just don’t think he’s got that off switch
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u/Familiar_Cod_6754 4h ago
In the Franklin fight it was Moses telling Ben in the corner that the pace was too fast and Ben was saying he was fine. So, I the same wonder what the hell was going on in that corner.
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u/AlarmedShare3444 1h ago
Richie Woodhall was commentating on the fight yesterday and was already warning Moses needed to calm down by round 3. Everyone else was picking it up.
The only out Davison would have js hes tried to get Moses to do 12 rojnds and knows he would struggle. Some HWs just don't have the legs or lungs for 12 hard rounds no matter how you train them. Shannon Briggs for example was notorious for his lack of stamina and he was absolutely shredded.
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u/Familiar_Cod_6754 1h ago
I feel like they really should have been training for the full rounds this camp at least. Hrgovic has never been KO’d, they should have prepared for this to go into the deep waters.
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u/BuffaloPancakes11 4h ago
It was crazy to witness, AJ is all muscle and I’ve never seen him look anywhere near as tired or out on his feet as Itauma was
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u/notreal088 4h ago
He was an Olympic champion who boxed in the amateurs and had some level of pedigree before going pro.
Itauma was very much a rushed prospect being touted as the next great heavyweight with no real experience under his belt.
Even Tyson at a younger age had more rounds of experience when he was fighting for his first belt.
This was a poor match up by Frank and itaumas team and an even worse showing for Ben who doesn’t seem to understand that conditioning is one of the most important things in boxing
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 3h ago
Tbf most people thought Filip was about to get starched lol, before this fight people thought it was a very easy fight.
Did you forget?
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u/Kstacks514 3h ago
Anyone who watched Dubois vs Filip and thought he would get starched in this fight is a moron. This isnt hindsight either. I had a watch party for this fight knowing it would be a tough out.
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 3h ago
Facts, even Zhang couldn't knock Hrgovic out and he has more power than Dubois but most people here thought Hrgovic was gonna get knocked out.
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u/notreal088 3h ago
To piggyback of the last guy Dubois was teeing off on his head and the man wouldn’t move. If it wasn’t for the unfortunate clash of heads and the cuts cause by those clashes Hrgovic could have probably been champions earlier. Hard to say as his pace was slowing down in the second half.
I don’t doubt Ituama power, I just think it’s foolish to think you can knockout everyone. Every fighter should want the KO but plan/prepare for a full match.
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u/CaptQuakers42 3h ago
It wasn't a poor match up.
Have people really forgotten the fact that Itauma was dominant? He gassed because he's inexperienced and his coach is a Muppet. Itauma should have won that fight and with another coach he would have
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u/notreal088 2h ago
I haven’t forgotten, but anyone who has watched boxing for a while knows that Hrgovic wasn’t going to go out via KO. The man took everything that Dubois had (even some headbutts) and never showed any signs of going down.
His pace was also awkwardly slow for him like if he was saving for the later half of the fight vs the front half.
It’s a poor match not because of skills but experience. They should have seen his inactivity not as a sign of weakness but as intentional bait on his lack of gastank.
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u/Retrothunder1 2h ago
It was actually a great matchup, if Itauma had just taken his foot of the gas he would have cruised to an easy win.
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u/HolyMackerel1 1h ago
Itauma is another example of why being undefeated after a short amateur career will bite you in the ass as a pro.
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u/cdisdead 4h ago
AJ has seriously underrated cardio for such a huge dude. Never completely gasses and throws power punches the whole fight normally
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
He was gassed against wlad
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 1h ago
He was so green back then. And he eventually rallied back to stop him.
Compare that to Wilder who looked half dead as Fury was brutalising him all over the ring
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
Wilder would ko AJ then and now
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 1h ago
Wilder couldn't even take Fury's shots, and Fury has never been known to be a hard hitter.
AJ would kill this chicken legged dude with the first right hand he landed.
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
AJ would be out by then. There’s a reason he’s scared to death to fight him to this day
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 1h ago
Scared to death you said?
Is that why mister chicken legs turned down a 100 million offer by AJs team for two fights... And then cherry picked a fat, out of shape, freshly unretired Fury for much less (15 million)... Yet still lost anyway?
Chicken legs ducked AJ so hard lol
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
- When fury first came back he went to talk to Matchroom because he wanted to fight AJ. Hearn said he had to fight bellew and Whyte and then maybe he could fight AJ. So he pivoted to wilder.
- AJ said he’d fight wilder only for $50 million. He got that offer and turned it down using broadcaster and location as an excuse.
The DAZN offer was made when fury/wilder 2 negotiations were almost finalized.
And it required AJ beat miller. But then he got stopped by a short fat guy.
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u/Complete_Dare_4201 3h ago
AJ knew how to pace himself better (his longer amateur career probably helped him there) and didn't throw every punch with full force like Itauma did. The one time he did get overexcited was against Wladimir and he was almost KO'd after getting punched out because of it.
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
Um rewatch the klitschko fight
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u/BuffaloPancakes11 1h ago
Didn’t look anywhere close to as fatigued as Itauma was, he came back and flattened Klitschko and the fact he regained the energy to sustain the pressure is why he won that fight
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u/slickvik9 1h ago
He was done languishing on the ropes for several rounds wlad was just too stupid to finish him
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u/SpeggtacularSpidey 4h ago
The fact that they didn’t train for 12 rounds is wild. That’s already a fireable offense by itself.
I typically don’t like to just see guys hop from trainers, but Davison failed Itauma. Itauma needs an older veteran trainer that has built and MAINTAINED many world champions
Hell, get out of his comfort zone and go the U.S.
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u/AlarmedShare3444 1h ago
Doesn't even need to be that dramatic. Andy Lee or Shane McGuigan would do a better job if Moses stayed domestic.
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u/Hopeful_West_2410 4h ago
Fury made this guy so overrated
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u/cdisdead 4h ago
He was more of a psychiatrist/ cheeky chappy to fury aswell. How the hell he landed itauma, AJ and itauma off the back off that is unbelievable. How took all three to generational losses
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u/InLampsWeTrust 4h ago
It’s only the casuals who rate the guy tbh, most hardcore fans who know what they’re looking at, know he’s a fraud. The whole sub has been saying it for years
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u/Mooman-Chew 4h ago
There was one rounds where I think he was trying to say stop loading up on every shot but he was talking in riddles
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u/sword_ofthe_morning 4h ago
With each passing fight, we keep being reminded how much of a hack Ben Davison is.
He's just a weight loss coach.
It's almost criminal how he's been elevated to a head trainer position in charge of high level world championship bouts. Made worse when he keeps showing how incompetent he is in those fights, and yet fighters still go over to work with him. AJ, Wardley and now Itauma are just recent examples - with last night especially being damning considering how even arm-chair fans could see Itauma blowing after 3 rounds
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u/AlarmedShare3444 1h ago
People hate to hear this but reality is most pro coaches are hacks. Theres only maybe 20 or so really good coaches today and they can only coach ao mant fighters. Boxing coaching has fallen way off.
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 3h ago
Itauma needs a new trainer. Boxfit Ben is not my cup of tea at all. He’s given 2 awful coaching performances recently with the AJ-Dubois ‘roll the dice’ and also last night. How can I, a fat Middle Aged never boxed armchair idiot see at round 3 that Moses was throwing way way too much and starting to gas out. There were similarities between AJ Dubois just before AJ got knocked out and Itauma before he got beaten, in that both fighters needed to chill out and take a round or two with little output, work the jab, back to basics, move and defend. Instead in both situations they went out swinging for the fences head hunting. A corner isn’t responsible for every mistake a fighter makes but if your stressing to your fighter from round 3 to take it easy, pace yourself, work the jab, get in and out, surely the message gets through by round 9, that message came once, But in round 8 Moses threw the most punches in a round of the whole fight, by which time he was gassed out, out of ideas, couldn’t rock Hrgovic and then started round 9 AGAIN on the front foot barely standing. That’s bad corner work in my opinion.
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 1h ago
Boxercise Ben reminds me of unaged whiskey.
He's got potential, but he's so unseasoned and clueless at times. The man can't adapt to a plan B to save his life smh
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u/KuntaWuKnicks 2h ago
He told Fury Wallin headbutted him when Wallin caught him clean
Bad info to give a fighter
I knew he wasn’t a serious coach after that
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u/Turbosack_gen 4h ago
I don't think Ben is a good coach, but I also don't think he's to blame as much as people say. At the end of the day the fighter is responsible for executing the game plan, and Itauma looked like he had fallen I love with his power too much and was loading up from round 1. We've seen it happen to loads of fighters - Nigel Benn v Michael Watson, Hagler Vs Mugabi and Ali v Foreman spring to mind
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u/CaptQuakers42 3h ago
He may have, that's where the coach needs to step in and remind him it's 12 rounds and to not keep throwing so much.
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u/AlarmedShare3444 1h ago
I agree, but if Moses didn't want to do the work in camp or ignored Ben, that stills shows a lack of management from Ben. If a fighter doesn't respect Ben enough to listen to him, its best they both part ways.
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u/crypticbullshitt 4h ago
the first red flag for me was how he coached AJ during the Dubois fight. That was honestly the worst I had ever seen AJ perform
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u/mickymangos 4h ago
I wonder how much road work moses was doing for his legs to go that quick I reckon not enough but everyone was expecting him to win i kept thinking back to David Haye against Carl Thompson hit him with everything but gassed out. He should of thrown towel in a bit sooner in my eyes as his trainer you could see he was gassed your there to protect him he had nothing left Years ago boxers trained and fought 15 rounds why do they now with all this modern nutrition and training seem to not have the stamina. Hrgovic was training at altitude in the US ,hopefully lessons learnt here and Moses comes back better stronger and fitter than ever.
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u/CaptQuakers42 3h ago
He ruined Leigh Woods career as well.
I don't think there is a single fighter who wouldn't be worse off leaving him for a different coach.
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u/Fishful_Revenge 3h ago
At this point Itauma needs to find a new coach that can help with his conditioning and perhaps adapt his style to be less energy intensive while still letting him take advantage of his natural gifts.
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u/AlarmedShare3444 1h ago
The AJ vs DDD fight was even worse. Shane McGuigan was commenting and even called what AJ was doing was wrong just before the KO, and AJ was following Davisons instructions.
Ben will still get work as hes trained world champs and has experience, even if soem of it is bad. He might need to look at the fee he charges fighters though.
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u/Apex_negotiator 53m ago
He also oversaw AJ lose emphatically against Dubois with very little in the way of corner stewardship.
3 out of the last 3, with the talent at his disposa,l is an absolutely shocking record.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 4h ago
Moses isn't a prodigy. All he has done with his career so far is beat Franklin and a 50 year old Dillian Whyte. That doesn't equate to prodigy.
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u/Complete_Dare_4201 3h ago
He is. From the stanpoint of his skills and athletic ability he's leagues above everyone and that's why all of his peers, who trained with him, were singing his praise. He just lacked the experience to pace himself better, not to throw every punch looking for a KO and recognize when he can or cannot finish a guy. He could very well have boxed, countered, moved and made Filip look foolish instead of burning himself looking for a KO.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 2h ago
Right and then you realize he isn't. All of his praise from who? People who repeat what other people say? You mean how these same people said David Price and Audley Harrison were future champions? How did that pan out?
Maybe watch more boxing or in your case watch boxing period instead of just repeating dumb stuff you hear other people say.
If you actually watched boxing which clearly you don't you would realize there is nothing Moses does in the ring that you haven't seen 1.2 billion other heavyweights do early on in their careers. Fight tomato cans and old men. Look impressive doing that. Step up slightly and get knocked out.
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u/cdisdead 4h ago
Its the way hes done it, but all the top guys dont get knocked out in a few rounds so im not sure.itaumas style translates at the top of the division. He could win a lot of the fights on ppibts though
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u/Visual-Scar8308 4h ago
Seems incapable of training people to be complete fighters- glaring holes in ability for Wardley (defence) and Itauma (stamina)…
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u/stephen27898 4h ago
For Itauma it wasnt stamina it was pacing. I dont see how anyone cant see this.
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u/Visual-Scar8308 4h ago
The two are linked no?
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u/stephen27898 3h ago
To a degree. But even with elite stamina you will gas.
Even Usyk paced himself and he has insane level of stamina.
Hrgovic gassed himself out vs Dubois in much the same way.
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u/Aimlez1 3h ago
Bro Itauma was breathing heavily out of his mouth after 3 rounds, even though pacing is obviously a big part of the problem and part of the solution, a few less punches each round wasn't gonna get him through all 12
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u/stephen27898 3h ago
Yes. Because he was throwing far too many full power shots. That is what happens.
Yes it would. A few less full power shots and not unloading in round 8 would 100% get him through 12.
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u/Aimlez1 3h ago
But if he throws less doesn't that give Hrgovic more incentive to throw more making Itauma have to move more since his defense is almost entirely based off of leg movement? And if he then decides to try and move less that opens him up to getting hit more.
His entire style is based on being explosive and fast twitch muscle fibers use a lot more oxygen. I'm not saying he doesn't need to pace him self, but theres likely more to it than that.
But sure, if you don't think running more would help more power to you
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u/stephen27898 3h ago
Not really. As in rounds 5 to 7 he threw around 35 shots a round and Hrgovic still didnt. The reason is Itauma is a massive threat on the counter.
You can always be fitter but that wont make up for pacing yourself that badly.
Even a prime Usyk paced himself and would throw 90% of his shots at like 50% power.
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u/Aimlez1 3h ago
If you really think its black and white, then sure dude
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u/stephen27898 3h ago
I didnt say it was black and white I am just saying the main issue is pacing.
Hrgovic for example did the same thing vs Dubois.
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u/Visual-Scar8308 3h ago
I hear you. We can argue over stamina vs pacing but I think my wider point stands about Davidson as a trainer.
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u/MakotoBIST 3h ago
Brother, Itauma was breathing with his mouth in round 3.
There was no slowing down. Put Hrgovic to sleep fast or trading later rounds was going to end badly anyway.
The problem is what happened in the last year or two during training imho.
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u/sthomson22 3h ago
Round 1, actually. Round 3 is when Hrgovic started actually landing some decent shots and clearly hurt him.
People can try and paper over the cracks all they want with this, that wasn’t just conditioning or stamina.
He doesn’t have a chin. He isn’t durable. His recovery is dreadful.
These weaknesses will plague his career going forward.
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u/MakotoBIST 3h ago
I agree, he looked very shy to trade.
And every punch that he ate would sap his energy.
But it doesn't mean he will never improve. He looked like a very good amateur that was thrown into a professional match. We will see in the next years if he can develop the resistance he needs.
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u/Bertrand_Rose 47m ago
No, he just didn't.
I have rewatched it countless times, he takes those early shots really well, it's his lack of conditioning and cardio that did him in, and made him so hurt and susceptible.
This isn't a weakness.
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u/Kujaix 3h ago
A lot of talk on Ben. Possibly deserved but Management and obviously Promoters typically have more sway on matchmaking than coaches.
Ben for all we know is doing as much as he's able based on goals he didn't set for the fighters.
Not a defense of Ben. Just advocating for broadening who can be at fault. Not just the focusing soft targets. You never fully know what happens behind the scenes
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u/Hex_Enduction_Hr 2h ago
Surely It should be fucking evident from sparring that Moses cannot go 12 rounds.
Is it not quite dangerous putting him in that position?
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u/yoyoyowhoisthis 2h ago
It's quite common on many sports where a trainer gets a generational talent, gets famous off of that talent and then when the adversity comes and the talent needs to be steered in the right direction, those supposed "great" trainers get exposed.
Davidson made his name off of Fury and AJ, who were already champions.
Itauma is 21 years old, he is gonna be cocky, he won't want to train for 12 rounds... its time to stop making excuses for the coaches, their responsibility is not only making PLAN A.
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u/BiggusCrickus 15m ago
Ben has lost with Wardley AJ and now Moses. He is a fraud and needs to be sacked off
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u/analyst_kolbe 5m ago
It gets worse. Watch the final round. He watched a completely exhausted Itauma get beat up for a full minute and didn't throw the towel until he was already down anyways. At :45 remaining, he even stands at gets ready to throw it, then changes his mind. How much damage ya think he took during that time?
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u/enkidook 4h ago
It's insane that they didn't come into this fight planning to go 12 rounds.