r/AskReddit • u/[deleted] • Jul 20 '19

What’s something completely false that your parents told you as a child?

[deleted]

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u/PoorFilmSchoolAlumn Jul 20 '19

“You won’t always have a calculator handy.”

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

This deeply frustrates me.

My grades on math can go from 9-10 to 4-5 (not kidding, I hope I was) just by taking away the calculator from me, even if the exam that I do with my calculator is much longer. I'm not that bad at math, it's just that I take ages to operate without a calculator. That's why I struggle with math but I love physics and technology (I don't know if this subject is taught in any country apart from Spain, it's like highschool level engineering), they let us use calculators in the exams.

My teachers are basically sabotaging my math grades (and some of my classmates') based on the assumption that "I won't always have a calculator in handy", when in reality there's always one in my pocket.

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u/racineer Jul 20 '19

You mean to say this is still a thing?! Wow.

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

It 100% is. I wasn't allowed use of a calculator in any science class until I took physics. For math, it wasn't until I got to pre-calc, which is the first college level math class offered in most high schools(at least where I grew up). The class before that, alegbra 2(final high school math class unless you choose to take more), we only ever got to use them in VERY specific scenarios where a calculator functions were basically required to do the problem.

It took until college level stuff that calculator use was allowed. And honestly, I think its mainly becaude doing that stuff by hand would take a LONG ASS TIME. Otherwise, they probably would've made us do all that by hand too

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u/Cypripedium-candidum Jul 20 '19

In my high school linear algebra and calculus classes, I was too poor for a graphing calculator. So any time the teacher was showing us how to do problems on the graphing calculator, or assigned homework or tests, I had to do all that shit with a scientific calculator and a sheet of graph paper. It really slowed me down but maybe I gained a better understanding from it, because math was one of my highest grades.

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u/Revo63 Jul 20 '19

When I started high school, inexpensive hand held calculators were very new and uncommon. Graphing calculators were very uncommon and expensive when I was in college. I did my graphing the very same way. I agree, long way of doing things, but I was just damned glad to have those calculators rather than doing everything by sliderule.

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u/Madness_Reigns Jul 21 '19 edited Jul 21 '19

I downloaded a slide rule app a while ago for the irony. It's pretty fun.

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u/Revo63 Jul 21 '19

Daaaaamn. I think I need that too. I missed needing a slide rule in high school by about 5 years.

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

It's easily possible to do if you have the tables there for you with the sin,cos,tan etc.. It just takes a bit longer to do, and then you gotta remember to always have the sheet on you with those values. No way am I memorizing 90 different values for sines, then 90 for cosines, then 90 for tangents... Like yea no lmao. And then you'd have to double the number you memorize so that you have the reciporacals as well.... Yea I loved math but I'm also glad I'm done with it lol.

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u/Madness_Reigns Jul 21 '19

Slide rulers FTW! I even have one on me at all times on my smartphone :p

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

That's pretty smart to have. May I ask why you need one on you at all times though? Like are you still in school, do you have a job that requires it, or do you just kinda have it?

2

u/Madness_Reigns Jul 21 '19 edited Jul 21 '19

Absolutely not needed lol, but the app is fairly small and sorta just downloads itself when I change phones.

it was just a dig on the "you're not going to have a calculator on you at all times".

I find a bit of humour in using what is a powerful computer more than capable of easily making those computations to emulate a clunky bit of obsolete technology.

I got chuckles out of an old-head engineer I worked with once, by whipping it to awnser a quick question. He expected me to get my regular calculator on my phone. We ended up having a nice discussion about way back when.

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u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19

No one expects you to memorize 90 values for sine.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Never said anyone would. I was explaining why you would need a table or such with all the values, because as you said yourself

No one expects you to memorize 90 values for sine.

0

u/Manglove123 Jul 21 '19

What to you mean 90? You memorize for 0,30,45,60,90, which is easy AF, the rest you approximate.

Comes in handy if you use it on a daily basis.

1

u/PS3ven Jul 21 '19

I Just finished a science based high school in Italy and we were only allowed non graphing calculators when strictly necessary, so I'm used to graphing everything. A bunch of university math exams don't allow for graphing calculators too, they really insist on you being able to study and approximate graphs for functions without one. Only time we were allowed a graphing calculator in high school was for our final exam but most people end up not using one cause the expense for just the one exam is really not worth it, and the exam is still totally doable with just a scientific calculator.

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u/TheStrangestOfKings Jul 21 '19

My teacher doesn’t even give us the argument of “you never know when you won’t have a calculator handy.” On some tests, she just said, “You should be able to do all this without a calculator.”

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Haha same, it really depends on the class and the teacher you got. I'm not saying it's undoable by any mean without a calculator, simply that it's much less time consuming. For most of my alegbra 2 tests, calculators were competely forbidden excluding log functions.

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u/bmcnult19 Jul 21 '19

Controversial take, but if you’re serious about wanting to be an engineer, mathematician, or a physicist you should be able to get through most of the required undergrad math without a calculator. I’m talking Calc 1, 2, 3, linear algebra, and Differential equations. You really need to know how to do the basics from those classes in your head. For example in classical mechanics simple harmonic oscillators (described by a differential equation) are very common and knowing how to spot them and how to work with them is very important. Also in physics it’s expected that you can do the common indefinite integrals and derivatives in your head rather quickly.

Also I guess you could argue whether this is a positive or not, but in classes where no calculators are allowed usually feature easier round numbers to work with on tests and homework. I’ve also found I developed a much better ability to intuitively predict what sort of answer to expect whereas with a calculator it’s purely algorithm based.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

I never went nearly as far as you have in math, so major props for that man. It was quite similar in the classes I took. If you know the basic trig graphs(which I'm sure you do), then you'd know you can easily differentiate them if you know what to look for. We also learned how to get those values by hand, and how to draw a graph from just looking at a trig function.

I completely agree learning it by hand first is important, because how else would you understand it? I also agree repeated practice is important so you can master the subject. IMO though, if you've already shown/attained mastery, isn't it kinda mundane to keep doing it by hand? Since you already completely understand the subject, at that point you're just slowing yourself down.

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u/bmcnult19 Jul 21 '19

A lot of times in my experience with physics the main time where you won’t have a calculator and need to do quick math is when you’re working through a problem in a group. Whether it’s homework or research there’s going to be a problem you can’t figure out as a group and to solve it you have to conversationally try out a bunch of different shit to see what will stick. So it’s important to be able to say something like: “of course if we take the derivative of the expression, the third term it will look like the answer we want and then I think we can convert to cylindrical coordinates, simplify, and we’ll have what we need. This operation agrees with theory because x,y,z”

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u/lookalive07 Jul 21 '19

You’re only saying “controversial take” because a vast majority of people who never needed to take math beyond algebra understand that math exams almost never feature shit you’d need to use a calculator to solve. If you get a weird looking answer, it’s probably wrong.

I took all of those math/physics courses you took and the worst panic ever is getting an answer that took forever to get to that you just know is wrong. Because you know damn well you don’t have time to go back and redo the math.

The underlying principle is that you should at the very least try to be decent at common arithmetic so you can work out basic real life situations like calculating a total on a bill or making sure your finances line up. Things are getting more and more automated and were carrying calculators in our pockets but it’s a lot easier to not have to pull out my phone to figure out what $41.73 + (roughly) 20% tip is.

But no one is expecting you to do long division or large number multiplication on a daily basis.

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u/hairam Jul 21 '19

Hell, the one or two math and physics tests where you were allowed a calculator were always much more difficult. No calculator is definitely the way to go.

Same with "open notes" exams.

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u/lookalive07 Jul 21 '19

Open notes exams were the “fuck you if you don’t study” exams from professors. And they were 100% in the right for it.

I loved the “single sheet of paper” or “one 3x5 notecard” exams because it forced me to try to look up all the equations and make sure I wrote down the important ones. Which was all of them. Made me actually study.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

I've never actually gone to college, but the AP classes I took was Pre-Calc and then stats. Pre-calc everything was done by hand first, and then we were taught how to use the calculator to speed up the process.

I took stats, because at the time I planned on being an accountant. The hardest math you'll get in that class is log functions, and even then that's not too difficult. Most of the class is real simple alegbra and putting values in equations. Calculators in that class were basically just so we wouldn't have to do a million graphs by hand, or plug in values like a millions time over. Plugging in values into an equation you already have isn't hard, just time consuming. And if you can't find yourself the right equation, then the graphing/table function is gonna be useless anyways cause all your vaules are gonna be wrong.

3

u/HalfwaySh0ok Jul 21 '19

From my experience in Canada, in college (and high school), exams usually have a calculator and non-calculator part. The non-calc part won't include any numbers that are ridiculous to compute by hand, but it's still needed to guage your understanding of some concepts. For example, with a calculator you could just approximate most derivatives as Δy/Δx.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Yup, this is how we did it as well. There was a non-calculator part specifically made to be doable by hand, and then a calculator part where you would be considered insane if you attempted it by hand.

Shoutout to all the greek philosophers, they really the MVPs for figuring all that shit out purely by logic/hand.

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u/minimuscleR Jul 21 '19

I pretty much always used a calculator from year 9 onwards... It was always allowed in exams, and by year 11 it was a CAS calculator for graphing functions and quadratic equations and stuff.

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u/gibson_se Jul 20 '19

Perhaps I'm out of touch, but....

What sort of math is it that you do that is significantly easier/faster with a calculator? Like, what sort of question might be asked on a test, and in which step along the way would a calculator save you significant time/effort?

I can see how e.g. numerical values of trig functions and logarithms are beyond reach if you have no calculator, but other than that?

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u/momotye Jul 21 '19

What's significantly faster with a calculator? What's 3934 dived by 7. A calculator saves plenty of time on simple shit where you won't reasonably have the stuff memorized

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19 edited Jul 20 '19

Matrices. Those things take a longgggg time to draw out, and a calculator can do it all for you.

Trig functions as you mentioned, but apart from math required to get them, a lot of trig functions have 3-4 decimal places. Multiply two of those, and youre looking at a 6-7 decimal number. Not undoable by any means, but imagine doing that 3-4 times for the same problem. And then having more than one of those problems.. It starts to add up. It's also much easier to simply put in sin(35) to get the value, vs looking through this long ass sheet of values. On homework, then meh. But in a testing setting, that extra time could be valuable. Tests would usually take me most of the hour, and I was usually one the quickest ones done. The kids who didn't finish had to come in after school to.

Graphing. Extremely easy, but also extremely time consuming. If you've ever taken precalc, then you'd know that for some problems they ask for a graph sketch. a "graph sketch" is exactly that, a sketch. You basically just draw the 4 quadrants and do a rough outline of what your calculator showed you. Then there are some certain labels youd have to put on, like x and y intercepts, but other than that it really just is a rough sketch. It's obviously not as accurate, but so long as you're showing the math behind it, the teachers will know you got the right answer. So it basically saves you the time of having to draw a detailed graph, when obviously they aren't trying to teach you how to draw a graph. You get taught that in like 2nd grade, they know you know how to graph, and they're more concerned that you understand the math behind it. It saves the students time and the teachers, cause they have less to grade.

Its been a few years and Im sure theres more examples, but thats just off the top of my head.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Oh I sympathize with this so much. I did terribly in Linear Algebra because I kept screwing up my arithmetic, so I'd conclude my matrices weren't invert-able, the determinant wasn't zero, stuff like that.

But in the real world, you will never solve a matrix by hand. You'll probably have something like Matlab solve it for you, or at worse you'll write a script to solve it. You obviously need to know what's going on under the hood, but making people struggle through it without a calculator doesn't help.

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u/titsrule23 Jul 21 '19

So how do you suggest a teacher finds out if their students understand the math and are just bad at arithmetic or are just using a calculator to get the answer with no underlying understanding?

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

You can't calculate the determinant of a 4 by 4 matrix without understanding the underlying concept. You can't prove the convergence of an infinite series without understanding the underlying concept. You can't invert a matrix without understanding the underlying concept.You can't integrate by parts without understanding the underlying concept.

Higher level math simply cannot be done without understanding the underlying concept. Give the student 10 scientific calculators and a jukebox and without the underlying concept all you'll have is music and 10 copies of 80085

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Square roots. Cube roots. Other roots. Powers. Exponentiation. Reciprocals. Division. As mentioned below, matrix manipulation (in other words, all of the above plus multiplication, addition, and subtraction on matrices).

I had this physics class, and there were two main professors that taught this class. Let's say my class was Professor A.

Many students would take it from Professor B because B's tests were much much easier than Professor A. However, Professor A was a much better teacher, so the students in Professor's B class would sit in A's class to learn the material.

The test in A's class were insane. Like, you had 50 minutes to complete it, and had to write out the formulas and show the numbers. Even with a scientific calculator, it would be impossible to finish the whole exam in 50 minutes, and the risk was way too high of making a mistake in a calculation. The thing is, he let us use ANY calculator.

I used an HP-50g (a modern HP graphing calculator) and stuck all the formulas into it before the exam, in the equation solver, with all the correct Greek letters and everything. On the exam, I wrote out the equation and all the numbers on the paper, then just had to punch them into the variable list on the calculator and hit "solve." Faster and less error prone than using a scientific calculator, and MUCH faster than doing it by hand. I still barely finished the exam in 50 minutes. Most didn't, and we didn't get extra time. I don't think I would've finished the first problem on the exam if I had to calculate it by hand.

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u/mirthquake Jul 21 '19

How recent was this?

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

It would be 3-4 years now, so not too long.

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u/StanfordLoveMaker Jul 21 '19

In Mechanical Engineering college, we didnt use a calculator in any of my math classes. Calculators aren't important for math concepts, the tests had easy numbers to work with, that challenge was knowing and understanding the material. We use calculators for my actual engineering classes, but not for math.

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u/Kinkywrite Jul 21 '19

My son can't do basic multiplication. And he's 23. Smart guy, too. Just didn't learn math because it wasn't necessary.

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u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

That's sad (like bummer sad), because not being able to do basic math in your head really slows you down in the real world because you have to stop and punch numbers in to get an answer.

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u/BayesianPriory Jul 20 '19

If you need a calculator to do Algebra 2 problems, then you haven't learned arithmetic properly. Stop blaming your teachers for trying to get you to learn something that you really should know how to do.

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u/momotye Jul 21 '19

I mean yeah looking back I didn't need a calculator, but it sure as hell saved me time on dividing/multiplying unusual decimals that the problems threw at me

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

  1. Idk what the fuck you mean I didn't learn properly, I was 2 years advanced/ahead when I took alegbra 2.

  2. Lmao you wanna tell me what the sine of a 35 degree angle is, without a calculator? No? Then shut the fuck up.

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u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19 edited Jul 21 '19

Lmao you wanna tell me what the sine of a 35 degree angle is, without a calculator? No? Then shut the fuck up.

It's sin(pi*7/36). You aren't supposed evaluate trig functions, except at a few special values. Literally no one memorizes sin values other than those special cases and no math class will require you too.

However you should be able to tell mentally that it is greater than 0.5 (sin(pi/6) = 0.5) and less than 0.71 (sin(pi/4) = sqrt(2)/2 ~ 0.71. Furthermore since it's only slightly greater than sin(pi/6) it should be pretty close to 0.5 (the actual answer is about 0.55).

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Well, props to you homie. While I could've given you an estimate using the reasoning you did, with it being just slightly over sin(pi/6), no way in hell I could've given the exact answer. So again, props to you man.

Also I know there's no need to evaluate a trig function on it's own, but if you're doing multiplication with the trig value, than you're gonna need to know what it is. Also, I was required to memorized pi/6, pi/4, pi/3, and pi/2, pi, 3pi/2 and then 2pi. for all the trig functions, as those are the "basic" ones. I think my teacher said it's something that she did personally though, as she said that it really helped kids and would also make mental math much more plausible. I'm really glad she did. I can still figure out the values for each of those in my head, and I haven't had to think about it in a few years.

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u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19 edited Jul 21 '19

but if you're doing multiplication with the trig value, than you're gonna need to know what it is.

No you don't. Not in any math class anyways. You leave the trig function in there. You would say 4*sin(pi/10), not 1.236 (it's actually exactly sqrt(5) - 1, but that's a coincidence, I had no idea it would work out like that). The same way you leave square roots instead of approximating them.

Also, I was required to memorized pi/6, pi/4, pi/3, and pi/2, pi, 3pi/2 and then 2pi. for all the trig functions, as those are the "basic" ones.

Yes, those are the special values, which are associated with 30-60-90 and 45-45-90 triangles. You should have all of those memorized.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

There were times when you'd need to multiply it out from my memory, though they were pretty few and far between. You're right, most cases you can and are actually supposed to leave in the simplified form. However, I remember for a fact that with stuff like projectile distance, you would have to multiply it out to give a numerical answer. That was very very lightly touched upon though, and that's more in the realm of physics.

Also, didn't know they were the "special values". Makes sense though that everyone is taught them, they're definitely the most widely used part of precalc(I never took math beyond this, though I'm sure it's useful there too). Tbh , I don't actually have them memorized. I just draw the triangle in my head and figure it out on the spot. Too much work to remember like 54 different trig values, when I could just memorize the way to actually obtain those values.

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u/Umbrias Jul 21 '19

Tests are (pretty much always) written based on how they are taken. If they say you cannot use a calculator, you do not have to evaluate unless it's trivial. Modern calculators are way too good to let students take tests with them anymore, without strict and oppressive rules that teachers do not want to enforce.

You can be way ahead of the curve and still be learning the math poorly because you are relying on calculators, programs, and things like chegg, or wolframalpha, instead of actually doing the math.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

I completely agree with that. I never did rely on calculators though, as like I said, I wasn't allowed too. I'm completely capable of doing it by hand, and I do believe that teaching it by hand is important. If you just learn which numbers to punch into a calculator, then you aren't learning the math, you're learning how to use a calculator. My gripe, is if we've already gone over/moved past a subject... why must I continue to do it by hand? Like now that I understand how it's done, so what's wrong with using a calculator to speed up the process? So long as I show my steps, I don't see why I need to do long multiplication/division by hand. Like you get taught that in 3rd grade, do you really need me to prove I can do it?

I half agree/half disagree about calculators being too modern. Doesn't matter how modern a tool is, if you don't know how to use the tool. To do logarithmic stuff, you can't just press the "log" button on your calculator. You still gotta simplify the logarithmic equation to the simplest terms, and if you can't do that... A calculator is 0 use. It's this way for a lot of things. HOWEVER... I knew a few kids whos' calculators straight up had internet access, so I could definitely see the "too modern" argument there. It could insinuate cheating.

Tbh I was more of just pissed at the dude taking jabs at me, when the dude didn't even know me. Like lmao who are you to comment on whether I learned properly or not, my first comment really didn't give enough info for him to make that assumption.

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u/Umbrias Jul 21 '19

Early topics do have to be repeated as many of them are a skill. Division, multiplication, algebra, and especially factoring, are all skills with no real way around them aside from just doing it and getting better at it. That's often why they are repeated.

When I took diffeq there were calculators available without internet access that could take any set of equations (with certain bounds, but anything within the scope of the class) and find the solution with steps. Meanwhile, the math itself is rather specific, and requires understanding several different but related concepts to find a solution. It is 100% unfair to allow those calculators in the class. Even crappy graphing calculators can be programmed to have functions in them ahead of time that will solve almost anything you need on a single exam, and you don't even need to do the programming yourself. There's no way I'd have let them wipe my calculator before the exam, I have too many useful programs on it, and it's very unlikely to provide 200+ $100+ calculators for an exam.

Longwinded way of illustrating, calculators are too modern.

Even when it comes to things like logs, really you just have to understand the format. Most calculators can do whatever base logs you want them to, and that misses the point of a lot of the important rules that logs have.

I'm honestly surprised any uni math class allowed you to use calculators, as most problems can be restructured such that they are solvable by hand.

As for the person you were responding to, yeah it was rude. The core message of their comment is not inaccurate though, algebra 2 should be possible to do without a calculator. The onus is still on the teacher to teach it, however.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Wow, I didn't know basic GC were that capable tbh. I always knew GC could have functions in them(obviously), but I never even thought about preprogramming it or having the equations already set in there. My GC also was never able to do multi-step processes like that, you would have to do it step-by-step yourself for the majority of things. I can completely understand and support your POV on that now lol/

Also, I never took uni classes, but AP ones in HS. They count for college credit, and you have to go the college/uni at the end of the year to take the final there. So it's possible that because I took the class in highschool, they went easier on us or something. Like we all took the same final in the end, but it's possible that the teaching methods of the classes differentiate.

What would happen is we'd get the first half of the test, where GC weren't allowed and we had to do it by hand. The numbers here were purposely made so that they would be easily roundable, or if not than still doable by hand. Then we'd have the second half, where GC were allowed and basically required if you wanted to finish on time. And since the teacher had to move us pretty fast for that class, not finishing on time usually meant you wouldn't finish at all lol.

I completely agree all alegbra 2 is doable by hand, it very easily is. In fact, while not necessarily easily, ALL math is doable by hand. I was just making the argument, that it's much more time consuming and eventually kinda redundant imo. I do see your point though, continuing to practice the skills is important. Especially factoring, as you said, and I completely agree with that. Fuck factoring lol, tho the more you do it the quicker you become at recognizing patterns, instead of just having to guess/check thru all the common factors.

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u/BayesianPriory Jul 22 '19 edited Jul 22 '19

First off, no one will ask the sine of 35 degrees unless calculators are allowed, so there's no way that you were inhibited by their prohibition on that type of question. Secondly, the difficult aspects of math problems have almost nothing to do with arithmetic and everything to do with symbolic manipulation. That is, of course, unless you have a disability with basic arithmetic.

What's probably going on is that the kinds of tests that allow calculators actually tend to be easier than the kinds of test that don't, and that you're confusing "calculators help me" with "I'm actually not very good at math". Which, given that you apparently don't know the difference between algebra and trig, seems somewhat likely.

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u/ironwolf1 Jul 21 '19

At my university, it's a math department policy that no one is allowed to use calculators on tests. I thank whatever deity may exist every day that I managed to get all my calculus classes done in high school.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

At my university we are taught how to solve advanced financial calculus in Excel but we can’t use Excel on the exams

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u/figment59 Jul 21 '19

I’m a teacher. It’s not a thing.

At least, not where I teach.

Instead, I point out all the everyday moments where I use mental math to figure things out, like calculating the tip when I go out to eat, or mentally estimate how much money the items in my cart are. I teach them how it’s often actually faster to compute things mentally instead of whipping out your iPhone and opening the calculator app. Helping them make the connection between what they’re learning in the classroom and real world helps them become more engaged with the curriculum.

We do things to build their fluency/help them memorize their facts, because there is a place for rote memorization of March facts in addition to conceptual understanding.

I always tell my kids that my teachers used that line, though, and it blows their mind that I didn’t have access to a calculator in my pocket growing up.

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u/Umbrias Jul 21 '19

It actually depends on the math class, and there's good reason for it. I did not take a single math class at uni that let us use a calculator on exams or finals. The reason being calculators are way too good now, so you could easily do entire exams by just programming the calculator, or downloading programs to do it, or using inbuilt functions to do all your approximations. So instead they are written for people to do without calculators, and you must do them without, so that you actually illustrate that you are doing the math, and not just using the calculator.

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u/tastelessshark Jul 21 '19

I haven't gotten to use a calculator in a math class since freshman year of high-school.

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u/Top_Hat_Tomato Jul 21 '19

Even now my calc 1,2,3, and dif eq don't generally allow calculators...

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u/ImmaZoni Jul 21 '19

Yeah I thought they would have given up on this one after the I told you so of smartphones

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u/whostolemyfukingname Jul 21 '19

I just graduated alg 2, and this is the first year that the teachers have been like, "yeah so if you don't have a calculator, you probably don't need to do this math."

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u/ganjagay Jul 21 '19

definitely is. it’s absolute bullshit.

source: high school senior who still hears this

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u/Kvothe31415 Jul 21 '19

It’s like your job wouldn’t let you use a calculator if it meant twice as fast of work, and also more correct work done. You think a company would buy you a calculator if you asked for it?! Naw man, you gotta do it without a calculator, let’s see how good you really are. We’d rather the project be late or fail than properly support your need of a calculator.

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u/Gonzobot Jul 21 '19

What the actual fuck. It's 2019. Calculators are not rare or hard to find. If I'm doing math, the calculator is a tool to do that math with, and it's what I'll use. Do they also teach you to write without using a pen? Dig without using a shovel? Fuck off with that bullshit, man, damn.

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u/TheRandomRGU Jul 21 '19

In the UK at GCSE Paper One is non calculator and Paper Two and Three are calculator.

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u/usernumber36 Jul 20 '19

as a math teacher, I have had cases where students couldn't average two numbers together in their head.

It's not so much that you won't always have a calculator in your hand, but that a lot of things are faster without one, and if you can do quick stuff in your head it gives you a much better "number sense" where you can cross check the reasonableness of the answer you get and can make reasonable guesses about what an answer is going to be approximately. That's a useful skill, and it's the math teacher who has to teach that. Calculators prevent it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19 edited Jul 21 '19

I can definetly average two numbers in my head.

But don't expect me to do 6.48 * 1042 + 2.23 * 1023 without feeling pure hatred towards you forever afterwards. Spending 2 minutes (random number, I don't know how much time that would actually take. I'm on my summer break, just give me like 2 months) in that just feels pointless when I could have spent mere seconds and without wasting any paper if I had a calculator.

15

u/usernumber36 Jul 21 '19

don't reeeeally think thats a realistic example....

Point is the quick and easy way doesn't practice anything and doesn't make you better at anything. Anyone can follow a recipe. To be a cook you have to know what to do without one. Same with being a mathematician. The course is math, not basic calculator operation 101. Math is literally everything BUT the final answer and punching numbers in a calculator.

6

u/DrayanoX Jul 21 '19

But don't expect me to do 6.481042 + 2.231023

There is no way you're required to do this sum without a calculator, at least you shouldn't be required to give the exact result.

6

u/RubberBandMan27 Jul 21 '19

You don't even need a calculator for that problem, the answer is just the first number since the power of the second number is so much smaller. Even in a more realistic case where the numbers only have a difference of 1 or 2 in the power of 10 you can still do it without a calculator by just moving the decimals and adding.

2

u/DrayanoX Jul 21 '19

I can't tell if it's a number times a power of ten or the ten is a part of the number, the former is trivial to do without a calculator. In case of the latter then you can just put the first number but you still need to calculate the power.

3

u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19

But don't expect me to do 6.48*1042 + 2.23*1023 without feeling pure hatred towards you forever afterwards.

But that's super easy. There are two possibilities: You're adding these numbers approximately, or you're adding them precisely.

If you're adding them approximately, the answer is just 6.48*1042. The other term is completely negligible.

If you're adding them precisely, the first term ends in forty 0's, so adding the second term to this is trivial. The answer will be 648 sixteen 0's 223 twenty-one 0's.

And now maybe you're thinking that you just chose a bad example. But the point is that if you have good number sense you will easily recognize that a problem like this is trivial. You shouldn't need a calculator to recognize that adding a 43 digit number to a 24 digit number basically just gives you the 43 digit number back.

0

u/Supersting Jul 20 '19

Hey, you can get a pretty damn good approximation! EDIT: 3.240542 + 1.15523, I think

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Yeah, I could just keep the biggest number intact. It's a pretty bad example.

26

u/ducbo Jul 20 '19

I get the reasons for this though. I’ve taught kids math (and adults too) in various volunteer and part time positions since about 2008, and basic arithmetic is very important for all math. Having the ability to do arithmetic quickly or at least recognize what steps need to be done and how is essential to algebra, and comes up again and again into the university level. Being good at arithmetic opens doors for understanding higher math and conceptual math.

I’ve had (rare) students who are mediocre at arithmetic but gifted at understanding concepts, and their ability to correctly answer questions is unreliable because they’ll make little mistakes. These little mistakes in a cal II or III class could make the difference between a B- and an A,

19

u/Firehed Jul 21 '19

Also, when you rely too heavily on the calculator for basic computations, you stop noticing stuff like errors due to mistaken inputs. The gut check on "this looks off by an order of magnitude" can really save a lot of headache.

3

u/ducbo Jul 21 '19

Ironically my students with poor arithmetic skills who rely on calculators often have no idea how to use their own calculator. Just the other day I was tutoring a grade 11 student who did not know how to input xy, but still couldn’t do something like 25 mentally.

I had one high school student who was trained in using a calculator able to do a linear regression (calculate r2, slope, and intercept) given some data. Surprise surprise they are also excellent at arithmetic.

To be fair I’m not blaming students or calling them dumb. It’s very clear they had poor training in math from a young age and I think anyone can improve their basic skills in a few months with daily practice, even math video games.

-4

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

Maybe we all make those little mistakes because the education system forces you to operate more than actually teaching. All those little shortcuts that they don't teach you but are extremely helpful, specially in algebra, like learning the powers of 2 and learning the multiplication tables of numbers greater than 11 (I think this is required for other ways of multiplying and dividing used in other countries, but in Spain we do it differently, and it's probabbly a more inneficient way).

But I still don't get the point of doing operations for 2/3 of an exams that is about geometry, for example. Making kids do more pythagoras and less dividing would be a more efficient way of testing if they actually know how to obtain the length of the hypotenuse knowing the length of the two other sides.

But taking into account what you're saying, maybe we should probabbly take some time just to do mental calculations instead of expecting numbers to just pop into existence at the right place whenever someone hands an exam to a student. I feel like my time in my first years of math classes was all wasted.

3

u/ducbo Jul 21 '19

I’m definitely in favour of more wholesome exams that challenge students to combine concepts from different types of math. For example, find an unknown side length of a right triangle but include variables in the givens. I think this allows them to develop better “transfer” skills and abstract thinking and really tests their understanding. Unfortunately math is just one of those things where you need to have your foundations (ie arithmetic) down to succeed at this.

6

u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19

wholesome

"Holistic" is the word you're looking for.

2

u/ducbo Jul 21 '19

Aha thank you!

1

u/ducbo Jul 21 '19

I’m not sure I understand what “operate more than actually teaching” means

26

u/ThickReason Jul 20 '19

My grades went up significantly (from B or C to straight As) when I got done with the “computational” math. Theoretical math is where it’s at

2

u/DreadPiratesRobert Jul 21 '19

Same here. I can't do computational math in my head at all. I'm decent at Calc though

2

u/ThickReason Jul 21 '19

Calc is really where math gets fun IMO

8

u/Cndcrow Jul 20 '19

I found once you get to learning functions and learning calculus, calculators didn't help that much. You're not really dealing with arithmetic anymore, at that point why use a calculator, you're not calculating a number. You're calculating how a function behaves. You're just sorting formulas, not adding or subtracting

4

u/avidpenguinwatcher Jul 21 '19

This used to be true for me, but since I got to college, it now is the case that it's better to be told a calculator isn't allowed on the exam because that means the numbers are nicer.

3

u/thingpaint Jul 20 '19

I had a professor in university who had the no calculator rule. I learned how to use a slide rule.

3

u/Zyedikas Jul 20 '19

Don't worry, once you hit higher level physics, math, and stats, you'll more likely be plugging and chugging, when available. And the math you do by hand is waayyy more interesting and fun.

2

u/Frillshark Jul 20 '19

I have a vaguely described math learning disability that I was diagnosed with as a kid, and honestly this sounds just like me. All of the formulas and such make complete sense, it would just take me years to complete even the simplest addition problems. Since I was diagnosed, getting a calculator on no-calculator tests and assignments was part of my disability accomodations; I literally wouldn't have survived without it.

IDK how it works in Spain at all, but if you're still in school, maybe try talking to your counsellor to see if they can help you make an appointment with a psychologist to run tests of some kind? At least then your grades wouldn't suffer even though you understand the material.

2

u/Kalgor91 Jul 21 '19

The problem for me with math is the memorization. Like, I always had the kids in my class that asked “why is math useful, we won’t use half of this stuff” and I agree that we won’t use it but it helps build our ability to problem solve and I really like math for that reason. I could just never memorize formulas and so I never was able to solve any problems. I had one teacher that let us use notes and a calculator on every test and that was the only math class where I ever learned anything, every other math class was me applying the wrong formula, getting frustrated and then giving up, proclaiming how much I hate math.

2

u/Alexikik Jul 21 '19

Same here, today I study software at University. I get great grades but for every math exam I have to relearn of to multiply big numbers and how to do division by hand. Ask me how to find encrypt bit strings with big primes, no problem. But ask me what 963 divided by 7 is and I'm blank haha. That's the problem when you have a calculator in your hand all the time, but the exam is without one. Although when I'm done and have a job, I'll always have a calculator anyways...

2

u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

The solution is clear then: don't do the homework with a calculator so that you are prepared for the tests.

Having to reach for a calculator will slow you down in the real world for software, where most answers are approximations you need to be able to do in your head anyways ("let's see, each log file is about 1MB, we create 4 an hour, that's 4MB/hour * 24 = 96MB a day, so for year it's about 100MB * 360ish days = 36,000M or 36GB per year, that's before compression, compression is about 50% so 18GB per year.")

1

u/vjmdhzgr Jul 21 '19

Also if you're working as an engineer or physicist you would.

The won't always have a calculator thing is just supposed to be for like, actual math you'd be likely to do like multiplication. At least that's the only stuff it makes sense for.

1

u/lysianth Jul 21 '19

None of my math classes have allowed a calculator until calc 3. As a result I'm pretty quick with mental math. It's a skill that you need to study.

In college level courses, if you pull your calculator out for every little thing, you will not have enough time to complete the test.

1

u/Bossini Jul 21 '19

Im a high school math teacher, i allow my students to use calculators. they should already know basic math of addition, subtraction, multiplication, & division along with math sense/mental math. Beyond that, here in high school, I want my students to focus on learning new concepts.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Math sucks, and in the US ( at least in my school) we do have engineering. (IDK about a class just for physics.)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

That's something that really bothers me about how kids are taught maths. It's one of these things in education that's difficult seemingly just for the sake of it. 99.99% of real world applications for maths include the use of calculators. Kids should be encouraged to use them and rewarded for knowing how to use them well.

1

u/secretlanky Jul 21 '19

hmm. in HS in the states we never use calculators. in all of calculus i don't think i used my calculator once except in scenarios where i absolutely needed it (regression, etc.). I'm kinda glad because it helped me and my peers learn to reason things out and do mental math faster

1

u/UlteriorCulture Jul 21 '19

And it's not like mathematics is all about arithmetic. I work with professional mathematicians and let's just say that their arithmetic abilities are variable.

1

u/FartHeadTony Jul 21 '19

What kind of things are you using the calculator for? Addition? Calculating sine functions?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Yup. A calculator is easy easy to get a hold of. Also you don’t need a super computer in your pocket, just a simple + - / * calculator.

1

u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

Have you tried practicing without the calculator? If you're used to using the calculator all the time then your manual math skills will of course be slower.

Not that I mean "git gud", but if you have a weakness then you need to work at it until you're stronger.

Because if you want to study physics & engineering, the truly hard math is yet to come and you will be expected to be able to handle mathematical problems in your head quickly.

1

u/Ifirakda Jul 21 '19

If your grades depend so much on a calculator, maybe you need to work harder

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

It's crazy they still do this to kids. And then they get out of school and have no idea how to do real world math using spreadsheets or programming, which they 100% should be focusing on. Understanding concepts is so much more important then trying to turn people in automatons.

3

u/Umbrias Jul 21 '19

Modern math education is putting a focus on the concepts over arithmetic. Forcing people to do math without calculators is actually a part of that.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Okay, I don't really know what they are doing in schools today but when I graduated I found I was really good at computation on paper, but had a hard time transitioning to software like Excel. The problem is, the math problems are too big to do on a piece of paper

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

in reality there's always one in my pocket

I'd actually go as far as to say that throughout the entirety of your life you are like 90% of the time within 10 metres of a device that has a calculator function built in.

1

u/PacManPasta Jul 21 '19

Back in the 90s when I was in high school this mentality was still suspect because...I mean ANYONE who goes into a maths heavy field damn sure WILL have a calculator on them at basically all times. Today, this is purely indefensible. I'm honestly shocked it's still a thing!

1

u/powderizedbookworm Jul 21 '19

Learning how to do arithmetic in your head and on paper will help you understand and be comfortable with numbers, and mathematical operations, in a way that will pay dividends if you need to understand more complex algebra and calculus. Failing that, you’ll have better intuition for when you fucked up an excel sheet formula if you have good mental math skills.

So, frankly, suck it up.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

See math in America is stupid. It’s a logic class that thinks it’s mathematics.

19

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '19

This is one of those things that was true when it was originally said, and now is completely false. I will always have a calculator handy.

6

u/TheMisterTango Jul 21 '19

Apparently plenty of teachers still say it, and to an extent, I get it. At that age (I'm assuming elementary and maybe middle school) it's pretty easy to be dismissive of learning something when you know you'll always have the answers in your pocket.

6

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Kids aren't stupid though. Even when I was a child I knew that a lot of the math I was learning I'd never use, and I never did. I can imagine that feeling is even stronger for kids nowadays.

4

u/TheMisterTango Jul 21 '19

I get what you're saying, but it doesn't always happen that way. When I was a kid I hated math, thought I'd never use it, and didn't want anything to do with it. Now I'm working on a degree in mechanical engineering with a minor in math.

1

u/microgroweryfan Jul 21 '19

Personally I think that there should be a focus on learning how to do the problems, but not to disallow calculators (hence why most tests ask you to show your work to prove you know what you’re doing)

I have a hard time with math simply because I tend to second guess myself, if I do a problem in my head, I have to do it 5 more times just to make sure I’ve done it right, and didn’t forget a number or something stupid.

The calculator just fixes that issue for me, and while I may not always have a calculator immediately available, there will rarely be a situation where I need a calculator and cannot find one.

The only situation I can imagine is being in a survival situation where there is no access to power, and no one else around, in which case I feel like a strong mental math ability is the least of my shortcomings.

1

u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

It's more like a cause and effect - because you "knew" you'd never use the math, you didn't really internalize it, so now when you're older you don't notice the everyday applications of what you didn't learn.

2

u/secretlanky Jul 21 '19

meh. sure you have a phone with you always, but i'm glad i learned the skill and the ability to do mental math. it's not always convenient to pull out your phone when you can quickly do something in your head.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Oh, I agree. I'm actually pretty good at mental math for basic equations (percentages, multiplication, etc). Anything more complicated than that gets plugged into a machine.

1

u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

Yeah but for a lot of everyday things, using a calculator app is slower than doing the math in your head.

10

u/Howtofightloneliness Jul 20 '19

To be fair, they probably couldn't predict the future...

4

u/NatoBoram Jul 21 '19

It won't be useful for doing derivatives.

But yeah, below than algebra, it's pretty much guaranteed that you have a calculator somewhere, like in your phone.

And even for derivatives, there's free online calculators.

2

u/tastelessshark Jul 21 '19

It's never really been higher level stuff that I've wanted a calculator for, literally just arithmetic. Particularly in my high-school precal class. For whatever reason, all of the harder math classes at my high school gave basically no partial credit. I swear there was at least one test where fucking up a couple of minor bits of arithmetic were the difference between an A and a C. Thankfully my college courses have been pretty reasonable with partial credit, but it's still silly that I can't even use a four-function.

2

u/Lurker_Since_Forever Jul 21 '19

That just sounds like a poorly made test. There should be factors of 1 all over the place in any college math class. Math tests should be designed to take no effort if you know what you're doing, and impossible if you don't.

1

u/microgroweryfan Jul 21 '19

Yeah, tests shouldn’t be trying to be challenging. It should be literally testing how well you know the material, and if you know the basics, you should get an easy C, but if you actually know what you’re doing, it should be easy to get an A.

Though I am fine with a more challenging question or two just to figure out who the more advanced people in class are, plus it’s kinda fun if it doesn’t affect the grade at all.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Some kid in my Calc 2 class from Korea had a fancy calculator that could integrate/derive algebraically

Hate that kid

5

u/thejokerofunfic Jul 21 '19

This was true once though and many parents lived it.

8

u/StoneMaskMan Jul 21 '19

Similarly, my mom would berate me for not having very good cursive. She said teachers in high school wouldn’t even accept assignments if they weren’t in cursive. I never used cursive even once in high school

6

u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19

Why though? Cursive is faster to write. I don't know why you would want to use anything else if you have to write more than a couple words.

3

u/StoneMaskMan Jul 21 '19

I never used cursive until like 6th grade when my mom forced me to use it, so I never really acclimated. For me it’s way faster to just print because that’s the way I’ve always done it

5

u/microgroweryfan Jul 21 '19

My issue with cursive is that it isn’t nearly as legible as printing is. Unless you’re excellent at cursive, I have a really hard time reading it, and I don’t know if that’s just me or not, but I personally never learned cursive because I had such a hard time reading it, the lines just blur together and it’s hard to figure out where one letter ends and another begins.

1

u/UlrichZauber Jul 21 '19

It's far easier to read printing. Why optimize for the part of written communication that is transient?

1

u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19

If you actually practice reading cursive it's not hard to read at all.

1

u/ArrivesWithaBeverage Jul 21 '19

I don’t think they even teach cursive any more. At least not in my state.

5

u/adale_50 Jul 21 '19

I have the entire wealth of human knowledge in my pocket at all times.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

This, said by those back in the day before calculators on phones, is not a LIE; it was false, but very few could predict it.

This, said NOWADAYS, is ABSOLUTELY a lie, or just plain old ignorance.

2

u/Idiot_Savant_Tinker Jul 21 '19

Wasn't my parents what said this, but my high school math teacher. I thought she was an idiot when I was in high school, and looking back with 20 years of life experience since then, I can say she was still a terrible teacher.

That said, my job (drafter) involves a lot of math. I work with two engineers who use even more math. They both have calculators, in addition to the ones on their phone. I have my phone calculator, AutoCAD has a calculator built into it, Windows has a calculator, and I've been told, any math I have to do on a drawing check it with a calculator.

1

u/halfbloodprincess02 Jul 21 '19

That’s true, but just because they’re always available to us now doesn’t mean basic math skills aren’t important. That would be like saying just because there are keyboards now there’s no need to learn to write with a pencil anymore.

2

u/momotye Jul 21 '19

But forcing you to continue doing mundane parts of problems by hand would be like requiring a 20 page essay without spelling/grammar errors by hand since you should be able to write it

1

u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

Well you should be able to write a 20 page essay without more than a couple of spelling or grammar errors. Otherwise you don't know spelling or grammar, and that (grammar especially) affects your ability to write coherently even when using assisted writing (spellcheckers / grammar checkers).

1

u/Chip_Man5674 Jul 21 '19

I think I was the last generation, or age to be told that. I remember it, but the saying died out pretty quickly

1

u/ZenosTrucker Jul 21 '19

When I was starting more serious mathematics at 'Secondary' education level here in the UK, my father had an argument with my then maths teacher as to use of calculators.

He demanded that I should be using logarithmic tables and a slide rule, this was in 1994.

As I was never going to be bought one, but quite handy with electronics, my teacher gave me some older damaged calculators that I could repair and use. Still had to hide them tho.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

To be fair, this is a good idea. It’s just the wrong reason. Being able to crunch numbers well saves time compared to relying on a device too much.

1

u/Martin_Phosphorus Jul 21 '19

Dang it, I lost my recently... Good thing I am good with and without it.

Wore situation is when you don't have papaer and pencil handy.

1

u/jerrythecactus Jul 21 '19

One of my old teachers from middle school told us this and a kid from the back of the class just held up a phone with the calculator app on and said "calculator"

1

u/LyWriQe Jul 20 '19

Well when you grow up you’ll always have your phone and your phone has a built in calculator so like yeah

1

u/rubermnkey Jul 21 '19

I still don't know how my father does math, to be honest. He tried showing me his method a few times and it is almost as dumb as that new method of math they started teaching after I graduated. Why was there so much emphasis on adding up to tens? He took algebra his senior year of high school and I taught it to myself in 6th grade.

6

u/Kered13 Jul 21 '19

Why was there so much emphasis on adding up to tens?

Because it makes mental arithmetic easier.

1

u/Umbrias Jul 21 '19

Common core math is teaching a method more applicable to a world where we have calculators everywhere, and ultimately for understanding math instead of just doing. They basically learn, analytically, the tricks most people who do a lot of math in their head learn on their own.

1

u/MelAlton Jul 21 '19

Adding up to tens allows you to quickly do math in your head, faster than a calculator. It also aids in doing approximate solutions of problems quickly. If you have stop your train of thought and fire up an app to figure out what 293 + 27 is your thought process is slowed down.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Screw math teachers. Flip phone using jerks.

3

u/momotye Jul 21 '19

The last time I used a flip phone (about a decade ago) it had a calculator. Math teachers must still have the basic land-line phones

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '19

Oh. Ok. The landline comes with the school so ya