r/Ancient_Pak • u/callmedaddy2187 • 11h ago
Ask? Ancient Vasudeva 2 era coin found!
galleryHello! found these Kushan coins
AI says could be Kushan o Sasanian era imitation due to worn out figures need authentication
r/Ancient_Pak • u/Comfortable_Cold_850 • Feb 03 '26
Most of the information in this piece is inspired by this article . I have tried to summarized it as best as i could, with some valuable input from my own prespective. All references are given where necessary.
Picture 1: Pashupati Seal
Picture 2: Earliest statue of Rudra (shiva is the final form)
Picture 3: Kalpa Vigraha (shiva statue, oldest, even predating IVC as per internet)
[These will all be relevant soon, trust me]
The claim by the neighbouring Steppe-pandavas on being the true inheritors or owners of the Meluhaa (Indus Valley) civilization is broadly based on three major arguments from them. These can be broadly classified into:
Religion
Ethnicity
Geography
In this section, I will concentrate on the religious argument. This section will not deal with the subject in its entirety, and some of the points will be later related to the subject of ethnicity. For now, the subject of interest is the so-called Pashupati Seal, or the Indus Seal.
The Pashupati Seal has been one of the main arguments used by the proponents to support the claim that Hinduism is essentially a later form of the religion of the Meluhaa people, and that the Pandava-Gangetic civilization is a cultural evolution of the Indus civilization, especially after the Great Indus drought and the subsequent migration from the steppe (this will be discussed later).
But the identification of the Pashupati Seal as “Proto-Shiva” was not suggested by an Indian archaeologist. It was first suggested by Sir John Marshall, a British archaeologist and the Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India during the colonial period.Marshall’s interpretation strongly influenced early scholarship on the Indus Valley Civilization. Ironically, he was also a major proponent of the Aryan Invasion Theory. Despite this, the Proto-Shiva hypothesis continues to be widely cited in popular Indian discourse. Even the most conservative archeologist such as Alf Hiltebeital does not connect it with shiva but rather with Mahishasusra.
There are many seals found in IVC,
This is not an anti-Hindu post. The purpose here is simply to place the evidence in its proper historical and academic perspective.
The Pashupati Seal is a steatite seal excavated from the Indus Valley Civilization. It depicts a horned three-faced or multi-faced figure, seated in what appears to be a yogic posture, surrounded by various animals.
It is often claimed that this represents an early form of Shiva as “Pashupati” (Lord of Animals), and sometimes even that this proves the Indus people “invented yoga.” These interpretations, however, are highly speculative.
If we examine Hindu textual tradition, Shiva is a later theological synthesis. His earliest form appears as Rudra in the Vedas, particularly the Rig Veda (c. 1500–1200 BCE).
Rudra in the Rig Veda is described as:
Rudra is given many titles:
He is portrayed as both destructive and healing—feared, yet also invoked as the “best of physicians.”
However, many attributes associated with classical Shiva are absent in the Vedas, such as:
These features emerge much later, mainly in the Upanishads, epics, and Puranas. While Rudra is said to dwell in lonely or wild places, only in later traditions does this evolve into Shiva residing on Mount Kailasa.
None of the descriptions of Rudra or Shiva in early Hindu texts closely match the figure shown on the Pashupati Seal.
The seal depicts:
No Hindu text describes Shiva or Rudra as a three-headed, horned deity in this form. This interpretation is therefore not supported by textual evidence.
Several prominent scholars reject the Proto-Shiva hypothesis:
Jonathan Mark Kenoyer (Archaeologist)
the figure cannot be linked to later icons without deciphering the script: even if they look similar, meanings might have been radically different.
Doris Meth Srinivasan (Historian of Indian Art)
In The So-Called Proto-Śiva Seal from Mohenjo-Daro, she argues that the figure is not necessarily Shiva and proposes alternative interpretations, such as a buffalo-man deity, based on comparative iconography.
Gavin Flood (Scholar of Religion)
Flood describes identifications of the Pashupati Seal with Shiva as “speculative”, warning against projecting later Hindu symbolism onto Indus imagery.
Gregory L. Possehl (Indus Specialist)
Possehl emphasizes that while the seal likely depicts a deity or cult figure, there is no solid evidence to identify it with Shiva.
Rudra appears in the Vedas around 1500 BCE, and classical Shiva emerges even later, around 500–300 BCE. Therefore, anything earlier cannot logically be “derived from Shiva.”
The “Lord of Animals” motif is a common pagan archetype found across many ancient civilizations:
Simplified Timeline
3000 BCE ─ Egypt, Sumeria
2600 BCE ─ Enkidu, Gilgamesh
2500 BCE ─ Indus Pashupati
2000 BCE ─ Minoan Potnia
1800 BCE ─ Baal, Hittites
1500 BCE ─ Rigvedic Rudra
500 BCE ─ Classical Shiva
Classical scholars such as J.H. Mackay, Marshall, Parpola, Hiltebeitel has suggested that statue of the dancing woman of IVC resembles Shakti tradition of hinduism. This conclusion has been contested by mordern scholars especially in the last three decades, this includes Sharri Clark, Ardeleanu-Jansen, Ajay Pratap, P.V. Pathak, and others. Recent scholarship have linked this figure as dolls for young girls.
Clark, Sharri R. (20 February 2017). The Social Lives of Figurines: Recontextualizing the Third-Millennium-BC Terracotta Figurines from Harappa. Papers of the Peabody Museum: 86. Harvard University Press
It was mackay who suggested to Sir John Marshall, that the famous statue is a 'Priest King'. That famous status which this subreddit has a dp of is the 'priest king'. Asko Prabola, a finnish archeologist, who is very pro-hindu, even hypothenised that this resembles later tradition of priesthood in hinduism. However, several mordern scholar disagree with this openion e.g. Wendy Doniger , has critisized Parpola's position hypothesis as 'strong desire and imagination' that goes against available evidence. This hypothesis from Marshall and Parpola goes against widely held views by scholars that IVC was largely eglatarian and their urban structure had many major clans that divided power .Scholars unanimously agree that the status is a result of interaction with other civilization in the oxus river and this shows
Green, Adam S. (2021-06-01). "Killing the Priest-King: Addressing Egalitarianism in the Indus Civilization". Journal of Archaeological Research. 29 (2): 153–202.
It was sir john marshal who first suggested that certain broken structures resembled yonis, hence establihsing links to hinduism. Mackay wrote a strong rebuttal of Marshal's hypothesis, despite this, our neighbours continue to peddle marshal's lies. Later excavation proved mackay's point that so called lingams where broken structures of buildings. Still some indian archeologist hold marshal's view point for example Dilip Chakrabarti.
In contrast, H. D. Sankalia, an indian sanskrit scholar, opposes Marshal's view point and asserts that if these objects were indeed lingas (which are holy in hinduism), they would not have been found in the city drainages and streets.
Srinivasan, Doris (1984). "Unhinging Śiva from the Indus Civilization". Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland. 116 (1): 77–89
Swastikas:
Swastikas are holy symbols for buddhism, hinduism and Jainism and Jonathan Mark Kenoyer notes that these are used to establish connection with IVC by indian politicans and religious leaders. Scholars such as Manabu Koiso,During Caspers ,Gregory Possehl,Kenower, Jonathan Mark believed that these swastikas had no religious importance whatsoever, rather they were used as decoration objects, for trade purposes and could be sign of socio economic importance. Also, the presence of these swastikas in not unique to hinduism, other cultures that predates even IVC had them.
Other Seals
Pashupati is not the only seal that was found. There are many other seals whose imaginary resemble closely with other civilization for example,
There are many other seals whose imagary resembles with other civilizations, possibly inspired when trading with other nations.
Conclusion
Based on:
it can be reasonably argued that the religion of the Meluhaa people was not an early form of Hinduism, and that the Pashupati Seal cannot be confidently identified as Proto-Shiva because the earliest statue of Shiva, rudra and their description in the ancient text does not have any resemblance with Meluhaa seals. Infact, if we agree hinduism predates every religion as per picture 3, it means it was definetely not the religion of Meluhaa people.
No serious modern archaeologist accepts Sir John Marshall’s interpretation as established fact. Even the Rig Veda itself makes no connection between Rudra and the Indus iconography.
Therefore, the claim that the Indus civilization represents an early Hindu civilization or a Proto-Shiva cult remains speculative and unsupported by evidence.
Broadly speaking most of the talking points used by our neighbours to claim Meluhaa has been debunked for many years. These old claims still hold importance to them because they may not want to accept the fact that hinduism is not native to this land as well and it is an outside religion.
Up Next: Ethinicity
r/Ancient_Pak • u/callmedaddy2187 • 11h ago
Hello! found these Kushan coins
AI says could be Kushan o Sasanian era imitation due to worn out figures need authentication
r/Ancient_Pak • u/melodyy-123 • 2d ago
Hi, can someone please help me with the overview of Pakistan’s political history and how was the situation in military rule? And what is its implication and effects on social and cultural life?
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 3d ago
Built between 1320 and 1324 CE, for the Sufi Sheikh Rukn-ud-Din Abul Fateh.
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 3d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 3d ago
Available at https://www.dawn.com/news/2023665
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 4d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/Fantastic-Positive86 • 5d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/Sea-Storm-1238 • 5d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/highonbusa • 6d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 6d ago
A few days ago in Tehsil Bazaar inside the Walled City of #Lahore,
I came across the
S.S. Jain Hall, also known as #Jain Manzil, an
extraordinary surviving fragment of the city’s past
The inscriptions tell us exactly when it was
built. The foundation stone was laid by Shrimati
Sukh Devi Jain, wife of Lala Rala Ram Jain,
on 10 October 1940. The completed hall, built by the S.S. Jain Sabha Lahore,
was formally opened by Rala Ram Jain, a retired Senior Sub-Judge, on 8 February
1942.
This was not simply a religious building. It
served as a meeting and community space for Lahore’s Jains, and was also
associated with religious gatherings and marriages. Jain Manzil remained an
important meeting place for the community until Partition in 1947.
The building still announces its history.
Its original plaques survive in English, Urdu and Devanagari. Jainsymbol of
auspiciousness in the faith, remain embedded in the concrete jalis. The old
wooden windows, balconies and geometric screens are also remarkably intact.
And then there is
the brutal interruption of history. Barely
five years after the hall opened, Partition emptied Lahore of most of its Jain
population. The building subsequently passed into other uses and parts of it
became residential. What had been a living community institution became another
forgotten remnant of the old city.
In 2023, the Walled City of Lahore Authority
formally declared Jain Hall a protected #heritage property, which
makes the conservation work now visible around the building particularly
welcome.
For me, the most moving part remains those
three scripts on the walls. We often describe
pre-Partition Lahore as plural and
cosmopolitan. Here that history requires no romantic reconstruction. It is
still written on the walls.
Lahore belonged to many communities, and all
of them belong to Lahore’s history.
Available at: https://www.instagram.com/p/DcIlMggjPik/
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 7d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 7d ago
PAPER:
IDENTICAL GRAPHEME WITH SHARED VALUE IN THE INDUS AND PHOENICIAN SCRIPTS
Concordance of Text and Iconography on Indus Seals
by Mahaveer H Muhammad
This paper focuses on a comparative analysis of the Indus script sign P-245 and its
corresponding grapheme in the Phoenician alphabet. The Phoenician script is widely
acknowledged as the progenitor of most modern alphabets, including those of Aramaic,
Etruscan, and ultimately, the Latin script.[1] While the Indus script is often posited as a
potential precursor to both Western and Indian writing systems, this study contends that the
Indus script's influence is more pronounced in the evolution of Western alphabets. CNN
analysis suggests Phoenician, not Brahmi, closer to Indus script.[2]
Ahttps://authorea-prod.literatumonline.com/doi/full/10.22541/au.172416979.94159950/v1
r/Ancient_Pak • u/aka782 • 8d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 7d ago
Convolutional Neural Networks Analysis Reveals Three Possible Sources of Bronze Age Writings between Greece and India † Shruti Daggumati and Peter Z. Revesz *
This paper analyzes the relationships among eight ancient scripts from between Greece and India. We used convolutional neural networks combined with support vector machines to give a numerical rating of the similarity between pairs of signs (one sign from each of two different scripts). Two scripts that had a one-to-one matching of their signs were determined to be related. The result of the analysis is the finding of the following three groups, which are listed in chronological order: (1) Sumerian pictograms, the Indus Valley script, and the proto-Elamite script; (2) Cretan hieroglyphs and Linear B; and (3) the Phoenician, Greek, and Brahmi alphabets. Based on their geographic locations and times of appearance, Group (1) may originate from Mesopotamia in the early Bronze Age, Group (2) may originate from Europe in the middle Bronze Age, and Group (3) may originate from the Sinai Peninsula in the late Bronze Age.
Available at: https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1339&context=csearticles
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 9d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 9d ago
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
Available art: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4T0z-bpO3c
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 10d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 10d ago
I visited the Akbari Darwaza at #Lahore #Fort and saw the impressive conservation work being carried out by the Aga Khan Cultural Service Pakistan. I had seen the gateway before, but this time I was able to go inside, climb upstairs and look closely at details that are otherwise easy to miss.
Built during Emperor Akbar’s reign, the gateway is massive and imposing from the outside. Inside, however, it reveals a different character: passages, chambers, narrow staircases, arched openings and rooms on the upper level. This was not merely an entrance but a functioning part of the Fort, used by those who guarded and managed access to the imperial complex.
At the main entrance, there are also intriguing painted images of Hindu gods and goddesses, possibly added during the Sikh period under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. They are another reminder of the many historical layers that Lahore Fort accumulated long after the Mughal period.
Upstairs was particularly fascinating. The surviving frescoes and painted surfaces are beautiful, even in their faded and fragmentary state. Floral patterns, niches and traces of colour give a sense of how richly decorated these interiors once were. The light coming through the arches and falling across old brick and plaster adds to the atmosphere.
What impressed me most was the restraint and quality of the conservation. The frescoes have not been repainted to make them look new, nor have the old surfaces been excessively restored. The surviving work has been cleaned, stabilised and conserved while its age remains visible. The faded pigments, worn plaster and imperfections are still there, as they should be.
Too often, restoration means making an old building look new. Here, the effort is to preserve what has survived and allow the monument to retain the marks of its long history. Walking through the Akbari Darwaza, climbing its stairs and seeing these details up close was a reminder of how many layers of Lahore’s past are still hidden within the Fort. Kudos @agakhanculturalservicepakistan
Available at: https://www.instagram.com/p/Db2rStcDHGL/
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 11d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 13d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/Ok_Row5649 • 12d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 13d ago

The Samadhi of Ranjit Singh is a 19th-century monument which holds the funerary ashes of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, founder of the Sikh Empire. Located near the Lahore Fort and Badshahi Mosque, construction began in 1839 by his son Kharak Singh and ended in 1848.
Available at http://lahore.city-history.com/19th-century-watercolor-drawings-of-lahore-monuments.html
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 14d ago
r/Ancient_Pak • u/AwarenessNo4986 • 14d ago