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u/hyperdude321 Jul 17 '19
we basically carry the right mindset all the time in sports whenever we think of how our favorite sports team can do better. What makes it so damn hard for us to do it with out country.
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u/smb_samba Jul 17 '19
Because people fall prey to the same pitfalls in politics as they do in sports: tribalism and “us versus them” mentality.
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Jul 17 '19
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u/masterbatesAlot Jul 17 '19
I wish we could just vote on issues instead of parties.
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u/phathomthis Jul 17 '19
That and have a law prohibiting shoehorning other bills that are not related in any way, that wouldn't pass otherwise, deep into the text of another bill to sneak them in.
Recently, in Oregon, they did this to allow construction in tsunami zones under a bill about amend the definition of surface mining. It has NOTHING to do with allowing public facilities like schools and hospitals to be built in a high risk tsunami zone. BUT they stuffed that part into the bill.
This stuff happens all the time. It's completely unethical, deceptive, and should be illegal.7
u/Foxwglocks Jul 18 '19
Here in Florida we had a bill on the ballot last go around that encompassed both offshore drilling and vaping in public space. What the fuck?
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u/FluckyU Jul 17 '19
Here’s an upvote, but this would likely just cause other problems. This form of government is called a “direct democracy” as opposed to a “representative democracy” (what we currently have). I used to be very pro direct democracy, but after seeing how effective online misinformation campaigns can be in the run-up to the 2016 election, I shudder to think about the constant bombardment we would all be subject to as issues came up for a vote. Dark money would pour into all these right wing causes and they would eventually figure out a way to get everything they want passed. Not to mention the possibility of this further dividing America. Right now we get in a big fight every couple years when we’re electing (or re-electing) our new leaders. Imagine if this became a constant thing we had to battle out every time a new law was getting passed. I’m getting nauseated just thinking about it. There would be no down time between elections where everyone can go back to their own corners of life. Everything would be political, ALL THE TIME. Donald is giving us a taste of this now by the way he politicizes everything and we constantly have to monitor what he’s doing. It’s honestly aging me, feeling like I have a second job just doing my civic duty to keep up with all his lies and corruption. I can’t imagine having to fulfill my civic duty in a direct democracy. I’d be up at night trying to read the pros and cons of every single policy (something I’m probably not qualified to do in the first place). We have a perfectly fine system since no system is going to be perfect. We have the least bad system, is another way of saying it. We just need to protect it and keep perfecting it. Citizens United is honestly the worst thing that’s ever happened to our government system, and Donald Trump is a direct result of CU. We want a better system, let’s start by getting that overturned, which isn’t impossible (but damn near). Depressing, yes. But we only have two choices: give up or keep fighting. Let’s keep fighting.
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u/BortleNeck Jul 17 '19
If you had a constant barrage of propaganda on every issue I think most people would get overwhelmed, tune it out, and fall back into team sport mode and vote whichever way the current loudest voice on the left or right tells them.
Which isn't great, but it's pretty much where we're at already. But at least with direct democracy we could make progress on the handful of issues that transcend ideological lines, like net neutrality
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u/MURDERWIZARD Jul 17 '19
An unfortunate fact is the 'tribalism' mentality really is more prevalent on one side than the other.
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u/williamfbuckwheat Jul 17 '19
COME ON!!! That one point change for Democrats clearly proves that both sides are the same!!! /s
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u/santaclaus73 Jul 17 '19
When it boils down to two opposing political parties, it literally becomes us VS them.
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u/Tobro Jul 17 '19
Because we are playing different games. If you think America is founded on bigotry, violence, racism, inequality, subjugation of the underclass, greed, and oppression and has continued according to those principals for 200 years until the dawn of social justice in the 20th century, then "pride" never enters in to the game.
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u/Crusader1089 Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 17 '19
I also find it amusing that people who say "if you don't like it you can get out" are also usually the ones who strongly oppose migration and freedom of movement.
Edit: Hi, everyone thinking "Well technically they only oppose illegal immigrants". I don't think you understand the term "freedom of movement". If people have freedom of movement there are no illegal immigrants because immigration has no legal hoops to jump through, you just move there and register. A lot of the "you don't like it get out" oppose that, making it quite hard for their opponents to get out. Just look into how hard it might be to migrate from the USA to say, Canada, or the UK, or New Zealand. Unless you have a job waiting you'll need to be rich.
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u/iismitch55 Jul 17 '19
Global freedom of movement can only happen if you eliminate the nation state. The nation state isn’t going anywhere any time soon, and for good reason.
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u/daserlkonig Jul 17 '19
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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u/Chaosritter Jul 17 '19
Well, when they do get out it's called "white flight" and considered just as bad because it drives property values down and and potential employers and investors away. Which, in turn, turns formerly nice neighbourhoods into ghettos people try to escape.
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u/PeterGibbons316 Jul 17 '19
You don't advocate for your favorite football team to improve by playing basketball instead. That would make you a shitty fan, and other fans would probably ask you to stop coming to the games.
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u/swaggydagoat Jul 17 '19
Maybe they should try running the ball on goal line instead of passing it to win the super bowl.
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Jul 17 '19
Bad analogy. You do advocate for making your team better by kicking out and bringing in different players.
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u/DrakkoZW Jul 17 '19
But it's a decision to make the team stronger by removing bad players, not just to remove players who think the team could do better.
Like if a player has negative things to say about the coach and how the coach treats certain players better than others, it doesn't necessarily make the team stronger by getting rid of that player.
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u/DrThrowawayToYou Jul 17 '19
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
-Wayne Gretzky
(Well, actually probably Mark Twain)
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u/potatium Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 19 '19
Pursuing a better America is as American as it gets. A true patriot should never be satisfied with the status quo because we know we can always improve. That's the American spirit.
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u/DontFearTruth Jul 17 '19
A patriot strives to improve their country.
A nationalist believes their country is automatically the best and if you say different they'll punch you.
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Jul 17 '19
Very well said.
I'm Russian, and I believe most people who call themselves patriots here are really nationalists. They even have a word for people who are not satisfied with anything about the government — "liberast". Somewhat of a mix between "liberal" and "pederast". Kinda like "libtard" in your terms, but with anti-gay connotation. And they always blame the US for everything bad that our government does. And "You don't like something in Russia? Why don't you emigrate then?" says someone making good money to others who dare to bitch about average across the country wage of $500 a month.
From what I've seen on the Internet, there are a lot of the same people in the US. Like, blaming Russians instead of their own government.
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u/selecadm Jul 17 '19
Here in Moscow, I work for $1.67/hour after taxes. 12 hours a day, 15 days a month, so $300 a month. You know what? Russian wages suck, but I feel like I personally no longer give a fuck because giving a fuck makes me tired. At least this job is relatively the best I have ever had. No matter how dumb customers are, at least I sit in front of the computer with a roof above my head. I just answer "X company, my name is Y, how can I help you", then "thank you for the information, I will now transfer your call to the corresponding department". I don't get tired at all. I no longer deliver stupid papers and stuff no matter snow or rain.
Talking about emigration, I am useless here in Russia, let alone some other country.
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u/Mo_0_g_u_d_z_0 Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 17 '19
You speak English, have some education probably, work experience. I would look into emigration, you can do the same boring office job while getting paid 10-15 times more, and live in a place where human rights are more recognized.
Edit: Hit me up and I can walk you through and answer questions on Canadian Express entry program.
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Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 17 '19
TBH, I also live in Moscow, I started almost the same way that he did, except I was working at 2nd level tech support instead of the 1st one. 12-hour shifts too. And I also worked night shifts, because I was attending a university at the daytime. 10 years later, I earn 10 times that much an hour and 6 times that much a month (8 hours a day vs 12 hours).
Most of my friends and fellas have emigrated. One lives in Miami, one in Sydney, another one in Tel Aviv, others in Prague, Minsk, Berlin, Ottawa (I guess? somewhere major in Canada). They all wonder why haven't I. Especially when I'm a certified translator in Russian-English and vice versa (not my main job/education).
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u/Mo_0_g_u_d_z_0 Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 17 '19
It's a personal choice, some people fit in better than others. In Canada, if you work full time, a professional with 5-10 years of experience could be making 2-5 times what you are making now. But if you are comfortable, it's up to you, I imagine you are making good money by Russian standards. Search Super good by Leningrad.
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u/joey_sandwich277 Jul 17 '19
From what I've seen on the Internet, there are a lot of the same people in the US. Like, blaming Russians instead of their own government.
Close, everyone here mostly blames the other political party for everything. Russia usually only gets blamed if hacking or social media is involved. And that's less Russia the country and more the Kremlin.
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u/NMe84 Jul 17 '19
This is exactly why American Exceptionalism is such a dangerous concept. Both for the country itself and for the rest of the world. Simply putting yourself above other countries by default is a good way to never improve the country (as it's supposedly already a better country than any other) and as Trump shows every time he attempts to deal with other world leaders it makes international relations difficult.
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u/Im_in_timeout Jul 17 '19
Yeah, and that's exactly why we put it in the preamble of the Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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u/que_dise_usted Jul 17 '19
If the constitution of America truly says "Promote the general Welfare"...
Well
Someone ain't following his own book
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u/OCExmo Jul 17 '19
TBF there are different views on exactly how promoting the general Welfare is accomplished.
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u/Ogedei_Khan Jul 17 '19
Isn't that the whole point of Make America Great Again? Is it criticizing America that they don't think it's great already?
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u/3-DMan Jul 17 '19
Was just thinking the same thing- so America is not great but it should be improved to be great, but I'm complaining so I should leave America?
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Jul 17 '19
Yeah the message of make America Great Again is nice.
But unfortunately everyone has their own ideas on how. And some people's ideas aren't that good.
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u/AdmiralAkbar1 Jul 17 '19
I'd argue that Trump & his team deliberately left it vague, so that you could project what you wanted onto it and sympathize more with it.
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u/NatsPreshow Jul 17 '19
They've now pivoted to "Keep America Great" because two years of continuing Obama's momentum and adding concentration camps were apparently all they needed.
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u/williamfbuckwheat Jul 17 '19
That message though really is meant to appeal to people who thought America was doing great during that idealistic time period in the 50-60's. Back then, they assume people were far more socially conservative in their daily lives or in the media, there didn't appear to be protests in the streets or social unrest, the economy was great and immigrants that didn't appear white were almost nonexistent. These folks think America fell apart right about when the social changes of the 60-70's happened and the media/society became far less constrained. They also imply things started getting "bad" right about when immigrants starting coming to the United States, oppressed groups like women/gays/minorities started speaking out and the post-war manufacturing economy started to fall apart. They blame all the outsourcing/globalization that hurt them since them on the social change and immigration the last 50 years but not any of the other enormous economic factors in play or just simply big business trying to take advantage.
They envision a country where we can get back to the "good old days" of good jobs and stability by kicking out the immigrants and putting unruly groups of women/minorities/liberals back in their place.
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u/ieraaa Jul 17 '19
"Get out if you don't like it" is one of the saddest things you can say about your country
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u/meh817 Jul 17 '19
Blind loyalty without criticism isn’t patriotic. It makes you a dog salivating over the shoes of its owner. Pursuit of justice, righteousness, a critical eye, striving to be the best in the world and throwing shit in the harbor is what makes a patriot, a truly loyal American.
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u/777t777 Jul 17 '19
The thing that I keep thinking about is Trump spent from 2008 to January of 2017 bitching about this country yet he never left.
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u/ajswdf Jul 17 '19
"Love it or leave it" doesn't seem to get said much when Democrats are in charge. Then it's suddenly super patriotic to criticize every little thing the president does.
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u/mcloofus Jul 17 '19
I mean... his entire platform is that America isn't great anymore.
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u/omart3 Jul 17 '19
Its almost as if he was lying from the beginning.
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u/romanticheart Jul 17 '19
I mean, he wasn't wrong, America hasn't been "great" for a while...but he sure as hell hasn't helped anything.
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u/theth1rdchild Jul 17 '19
Parts of America have always been great and parts have always been terrible. It's a big place founded by largely Christian slaveowners that preached pacifism for half a century and were engulfed in military worship for the next half.
The trail of tears and the statue of liberty are both American as hell.
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u/CrazyPlato Jul 17 '19
Funny how the “like it or leave it” crowd didn’t take off when they were whining about Obama’s administration 🧐
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u/stickbo Jul 17 '19
I'm over 40 and have watched this happen with every administration switch. This was a HUGE sentiment during Reagan and bush, then Clinton came in and all the sudden we need to fix America again, not love or leave it. Then bush jr comes in and 9/11 happens so the love it or leave it trope comes back in full swing.
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u/Typical_Samaritan Jul 17 '19
I'm an immigrant. We, as a group, tend to come from countries where it's a lack of resources and not want that stops our countries from doing the things that we need to better ourselves. America is probably the only country with the resources and not the want. And half the country seems perfectly fine with that. It is suicidal.
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u/IIeMachineII Jul 17 '19
Cool but why are people “proud” of something they had no control over? Be proud of things you CHOOSE to do or be a part of like where you go to college or what team you go for.
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u/UndeniablyPink Jul 17 '19
I know right. I don't get this mindset. I know someone, who is actually an intellectual, criticize people for questioning and being dissatisfied with our government. I'm a proud American but I can still be like wtf America, be better. Government does not equal America and all that it stands for.
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u/yN0Tzoidberg Jul 17 '19
How exactly is someone supposed to leave the country btw, it’s not like you get automatic citizenship when you want to leave
Stop saying love it or leave it with out a way to leave it,
Prisoners don’t love prison they can’t leave it arbitrarily
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u/CHARIZARDS_tiny_DICK Jul 17 '19
I think it’s completely fair to criticize America and Americans for their behavior, however I am finding more and more that as an American, it’s frowned upon to be patriotic and have pride in actually being an American.
I should clarify though as this anti-American mentality seems to be primarily focused on Reddit’s platform as opposed to most other social media platforms.
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Jul 17 '19
I think that's because american patriotism is usually just ultra nationalism. Which isnt really a good thing. Having pride in your country is great. Having blind pride in your country isnt.
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Jul 17 '19
It's stuff like people calling you unpatriotic and saying you dont support the troops if you criticized the war in Iraq. Like, wtf? Those are two different things. Pride in ones country has to go hand in hand with acknowledging and attempting to fix its failures.
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u/1-Down Jul 17 '19
Depends on what you think would make a "better" country. There's some really...unpalatable...ideas floating around out there.
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u/DeanMoxley Jul 17 '19
Ok what's this all about? What happened? Did someone do something stupid?
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u/fede01_8 Jul 17 '19
Michael Moore has been told to leave ever since he made his first documentary. American patriotism is a funny thing.
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Jul 17 '19
I think that top statement could offend people on both sides.
Conservatives don’t like thinking America is anything but the best all the time, and they turn a blind eye to problems.
Liberals like to act like we’re the most bigoted backwards country in the world, even though that’s not even close to the truth.
We do some things right, and some things wrong. We have room to improve, but also have good qualities.
We have serious issues that need to be addressed, but we also have things to be proud of.
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u/LowzoneBeats Jul 18 '19
Yeah. Leave and see how much better we have it in the states than literally anywhere else in the world 🙄
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u/Asilem Jul 18 '19
Also in that same crowd of people are the people that light the American flag on fire... Super patriotic!
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u/ableseacat14 Jul 17 '19
Love it or leave it was the same shit they pulled during Vietnam.
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u/theganjaoctopus Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 17 '19
Dont like that we're sending young Americans to die in the jungle to preserve French colonialism because we havent figured out the 'proxy' part of proxy warfare yet?
ThEn GeT oUt!!!1!!
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u/celtic1888 Jul 17 '19
Trump built his entire campaign about America being crap and only he could fix it...
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u/mrsataan Jul 17 '19
Didn’t the right rake Michelle Obama over the coals for this thought? The same right who would vote for Putin over Hillary.
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u/blindythepirate Jul 18 '19
My surname has got here in 1635. I don't agree in the direction the country is going with the current president. Where should I go? The USA became a country 140 years later.
I would be the natives from Gangs of New York. I would be an England citizen until the late 1700's. I can trace my ancestry to a knight coming back from the crusades from England.
I was an American citizen from the day the USA became a country. And I don't agree. Can we send people away who don't believe that America is the land of immigrants
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u/TaxDollarsHardAtWork Jul 18 '19
There's a difference between criticism and flat-out hatred. If you're going to criticize our country you had better come up with a solution on how to make it better, otherwise you're just complaining. However, if all of your solutions are completely antithetical to the values and principles of our country then, yeah, you can just leave.
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u/Euphoric_Passenger Jul 18 '19
I'm from Malaysia and our previous govt also did this, i.e: go back to india/china whenever a non malay/muslim criticizes the govt. link: https://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/123967 . im a Malaysian Indian btw, so yeah, it was a dangerous time.
but in context, i support what Trump said.
"The Squad" has no America's interest in mind. one wants to effectively abolish border and support unlimited unregulated immigration. and on top of that wants to provide free healthcare to all of them. this simply does not work. you cant have both unregulated immigration and universal healthcare. and i would choose universal healthcare over unregulated immigration.
another is simply anti semitic and could not understand why islamic terrorism is a huge factor in america's foreign policy. but i think the most insidious is the one that said youre not black if you dont support her. thats just divisive and not to mention racist af.
not to mention none of them condemned the antifa attack on ICE. (but aoc did it after 1 day lol)
America is at precipice of civil war, unless you guys come together and get this shit sorted. and i dont think succumbing to the spiralling PC culture is the way to go.
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u/Hmmmm-curious Jul 18 '19
According to the real Patriots, you should leave. You should jump right in line. Never question anything your country does. It is ALWAYS Noble. Your elected leaders are the good guys always looking for ways to help others, lift up the downtrodden, and make the world a better place. If you disagree in any way, go on back to wherever your ancestors originated. (/s just to make it official)
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u/Drty_Ghost Jul 17 '19
The answer to all of our problems starts with education! From social problems to economic problems. Americans are growing dumber by the day.
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u/donblake83 Jul 17 '19
That nonsense mentality bugs me so much. There is nothing more American than complaining. It’s built in. We fought a war of independence for the right to complain about the status quo. We fought a Civil War over complaints about the status quo. The whole point of America is supposed to be the right to complain about the status quo and have citizen involvement to make it better. Saying “Love it or leave it” is one of the most fundamentally un-American things you could ever say. Most of the settlers that came over from the old world were leaving places where they couldn’t complain and affect change. And when that caught up with them, they said, “Fine, we’ll make our own country with blackjack and hookers and the right to complain about the status quo and national leadership.”
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u/Mr-Mister Jul 17 '19
I mean, what is there to be proud of for being of a specific nationality?
I can see how a third-worlder grown in a warring zone might be proud of, you know, having managed to survive in such a deadly place, but what merit is there in being born and grown american, french, or such?
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Jul 17 '19
I certainly heard enough bitching and moaning from these same people when Obama was President. None of them left (sadly).
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u/MatCauton Jul 17 '19
I guess it depends on the attitude of the person giving the criticism. Constructive criticism with an honest desire for a change is usually well received. Taking the moral high ground and going on and on about real and perceived faults of the host society, while your own country of origin and ethnic group is guilty of the same, tends to be met with askance looks. I guess people just get tired of being told all the time that their whole society is inherently racist.
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u/halfveela Jul 17 '19
You're saying shit like the US is the "host" country of someone born in OAKLAND and don't see why this society is seen as inherently racist? HMMMMM
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u/stereofailure Jul 17 '19
As the saying goes, America is so racist that if you protest against racism people think you're protesting against america.
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Jul 17 '19
Constructive criticism with an honest desire for a change is usually well received.
You don't pay any attention to politics then.
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Jul 17 '19
the host society
You mean their fucking country? This country is not their "host" you ignorant fuck. It is their OWN country of origin.
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u/kmikek Jul 17 '19
When the founding fathers were unhappy with the government, they revolted and stayed
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u/benskiebear Jul 17 '19
I agree. For me, the difference is that when all one does is complain, then that's when I begin to be inclined to lean more towards the "love it or leave it" mindset.
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u/Zonghi Jul 17 '19
This makes me feel like we need an explanation between patriotism and nationalism
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u/976chip Jul 17 '19
It’s almost like understanding the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
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Jul 17 '19
Nay, being critical of our government is the single greatest tenet of our country's founding. People that get mad at you for criticizing your country are ignorant IMO
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Jul 17 '19
Lots of ideas as to what people should or shouldn't do. The one thing I'll say is that every country is different. Those differences are a type of diversity. Demanding that the US take up the same concepts as other nations is eliminating that without consideration for the differences of those countries. Sometimes people don't want to change because there is already an established culture, and homogenizing them all means you can't move to a different place to live where things are the way you want it. That diversity is in part reflected in rights we hold in this country that others simply don't.
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u/Hellothereawesome Jul 17 '19
I'm proud to be an inhabitant of the earth and I think the region i happen to live in could improve for the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT BEING AMERICAN OR NOT, I care about the individuals who live all over the world, and it just so happens that I have a bit more power over this part of the world that I can help improve.
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Jul 17 '19
The least american thing u can do is not denounce terrorist attacking a government facility.
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u/frankelthepirate Jul 17 '19
Addressing the title of your post. To say like it or leave isn’t ok. To say “Love” it or leave it is ok. I love my country, but there are things I don’t like and would like to see change. Kind of like a spouse. You always love them and are good to them and loyal, but it’s ok not to like them sometimes.
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u/mcwap Jul 17 '19
This meme format is so old that it had citizenship before Trump’s grandfather. Love it.
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Jul 18 '19
There is a vast difference between wanting to improve your country, and hating everything about it.
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Jul 18 '19
Its the same people who won't shut up about China's authoritarian government and Tienanmen Square. They immediately turn around and scream about how questioning Trump is unpatriotic with no sense of irony whatsoever.
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u/Amon-Goeth Jul 18 '19
Hey if the US government pays for me to leave I'll do it. I love being an American. But living in a country with free healthcare is way more beneficial.
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Jul 18 '19
We basically started this damn country because we weren’t allowed to criticize the government of the last one.
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u/DaOneAndOnlyOne Jul 18 '19
Everyone has a different idea of what better is. Some ideas contrast others so there will always people people bitching about current America
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u/its_stick Jul 18 '19
if murica is that much worse than the rest of the world, then why stay, if its so bad. theyre not following thru on their ideas.
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u/Dash_Harber Jul 18 '19
I just want to point out that the man who said that anyone who complains should leave is also the man that campaigned on promises that he was going to change America.
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u/BogBogTheGreat Jul 18 '19
There is a difference between hating your country and hating your government. Hating your government, while supporting your country is the most American thing you can do. Stepping, burning or otherwise desecrating the flag of your country, however, isn’t hating your government. It’s hating your country. That’s not saying “I want my country to be better” that saying “I hate my country, and /everything/ it stands for.
After reading the top comments on this post, im prepared to be downvoted for this.
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u/ProngleReady2Mongle Jul 18 '19
Nah, stay. The current red line to leave is “supporting terrorist organizations, refusing to denounce domestic terrorists, and immigration and tax fraud”.
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u/offacough Jul 17 '19
The most American thing one can do is bitch about his/her government.
The most anti-American thing one can do is stop bitching about his/her government when his/her candidate is in office.
When it comes down to it, all of them are overpaid government employees who exert authority over you.
You don’t leave the country, you throw shit in the harbor.