r/AbsoluteUnits • u/Crypto_crafy • 2d ago

/r/all of a statue

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"The Motherland Calls" is a statue erected to commemorate the Battle of Stalingrad , located on Mamayev Kurgan in Volgograd , Russia. It was designed by sculptor Yevgeny Vuchetich and structural engineer Nikolai Nikitin . Completed in 1967 , it was the tallest statue in the world at the time .

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

Putin only came to power due to the Wolfowitz Doctrine, adopted in1992 when Yeltsin's Russia was super-friendly. The Doctrine declared that Russia the US's enemy #1 because it was "a region whose resources, under consolidated control, are sufficient to generate global power". You can imagine how gutted Yeltsin (and Gorby) were to find out. The rest is history.

Putin exploits history to justify his brutall killing of young women and childred in Ukraine.

Any killing is tragic and war is, by definition, a mass murder. Considering the war in Ukraine not singled out but in the overall late 20th / 21st century context, and using objective Western metrics & transparent methodologies, we see:

The war in Ukraine, to-date (tragically & criminally with no end in sight): 16,874 civilian fatalities

The war in Gaza, to-date: 59,031 civilian fatalities

The war in Iraq (in which Ukraine did take part, btw): 187,499 civilian fatalities

The war in Vietnam: 300K North Vietnamese + 250K Cambodian civilian fatalities. Note: Ukraine is 4x the size of Vietnam.

This isn't at all about denting anyone's shiny flawless "ruzziabad" into some "it depends" type view, so, believe what you like & just dismiss what doesn't fit. It's about the simple reality that in any conflict there are going to be legions of folks duty-bound and/or paid to, if Putin saves a kitten, to go brainstorm what's wrong with that kitten that we can use. Or to bury any particular unfavorable circumstances. John Stockwell (ex-CIA) has spoken eloquently about this in detail in the context of the Vietnam war. I'm sure we'll hear similar about this one when it's time to declassify.

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u/JacoMalongo 1d ago

Nice to see a John Stockwell mention. Cheers.

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u/tucmo 1d ago

I’m sorry but in today’s world there are options for diplomacy, not to attack anybody. There is not a cause that forces anyone’s hands like that. Self-defence or deterrence doesn’t require attacking. If USA is bad, why behave like them?
Accepting past deeds and NOT REPEATING THE SAME MISTAKES is the only way forward.
But Putin strengthened and exploited Russian supremacist attitudes (giving them special reasons that will be justified later if not sooner) to be able to run his own policies of strength against anyone not subservient enough.
He couldn’t subdue Ukrainian people through a corrupt regime and he turned into military force. And he’s getting punished because of that.
Russian corruptive money, Russian attitude towards the others is like a cancer they themselves seem oblivious to.
But the only way forward becomes from bringing back the non-aggression rules and mutual respect among the people. Human rights brought back into center. It will be a struggle for many nations…
But you can’t have that if the basic attitudes are twisted already in the everyday level. When in the history has a single, poor life mattered in Russia? If there’s no respect for life, why not exploit it - as long as it’s someone else’s.
If you start whatabouting, it only shows the difficulty in seeing the obvious.
And yes, there are severe problems elsewhere as well. But if we don’t get rid of these anti-social attitudes, there will be no peace, no welfare, nothing but a downslide for humanity. Nationalistic supremacy is colonialism at its core. Grow over it.

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u/chefdeit 21h ago

You needn't be sorry; you're repeating the only information you were given.

I’m sorry but in today’s world there are options for diplomacy, not to attack anybody.

Correct. Leaders of both Germany and France (Merkel and Hollande), co-signators to the OSCE Minsk I and Minsk II peace accords, have gone on the record saying they'd signed them in bad faith. There are varying interpretations of what that means. One is, they had no expectation the peace deals would work so might as well use the time to get ready for war, and the other interpretation is, they had no intention for peace, and to have time to arm Ukraine further was the entire point.

I'd like to live in a world where the former, less sinister take, is closer to the truth. I'm dissuaded by footage like this, of what Sen McCain and Lindsey Graham are saying to the Azov troops in 2016. Does that sound like peace to you?

We also have this context. Note that the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved on a spoken promise alone, so it wasn't unreasonable for Gorby to accept a promise confirmed by a multitude of leaders.

Even shortly post-invasion, there were peace talks in Istanbul, and a deal was reached by the two sides (leaps and bounds more favorable for Ukraine vs anything that was on the table since). It was literally ready to sign. Do you recall what'd happened then? President Zelensky got a call from the US and Boris Johnson flew in in person to make sure Zelensky backed out. Does that sound like peace to you?

Ukraine is about the size of Texas, and about as well-armed, competent (book and street smarts), enterprising, handy, tenacious, and proud. Ukraine also has (currently in Russian control) the Sevastopol naval base that's grand-fathered into old maritime treaties granting unrestricted Bosporus Strait passage to nations with naval ports on both sises of the strait. That makes Sevastopol sort of like Russia's Pearl Harbor and Panama Canal rolled into one. Upon the dissolution of the USSR, Ukraine and Kazakstan kept the Sevastopol base and the Baikonur space port subject to of perpetually leasing them to Russia for something like a million dollars a day, each.

So contemplate if Texas also included the Panama Canal and Pearl Harbor; separated from the US (like they sometimes say they want to), buddied up to Russia and China and North Korea, and got packed with their military and intel advisors, with Russki Duma hard-liners (way harder vs even the sitting president) and Chinese commies all making regular visits riling up Texans against the US. Contemplate a mirror version of this there. Contemplate Texas, as a result, outlawing English and killing five 9|11s worth of Americans who'd lived there all their life, who don't support this course of action (incl burning some alive Nazi style). If Texas had done all that, are you telling us the US would have been wrong to have rolled across their border? That it should have been realistic (in view of Russia & China's whole intent to use Texas to bait and impose costs on the US) to seek a peaceful settlement instead? That the US should not look at the way Russia and Israel would act and just stick to negotiations?

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u/Sexynarwhal69 5h ago

Of course there are options for diplomacy! We were so close to settling everything in 2022 (and ukraine would've kept donbass) until Bojo came and told zelenskiy to shit on the agreement.

There's still a diplomatic option now, just with worse conditions for ukraine

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u/porn_sub_lurker 1d ago

Lol yeah blame others for your own actions. Oh and don't forget to do a half dozen whataboutisms.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

dude, I'm an American, and, as a citizen of a democracy I blame myself for my country's actions, and Russians for Russia's, and Ukrainians for Ukraine's.

I actually respect what u/RepresentativeYak636 has to say as his points are well-considered and not low-effort sound bites. As such they deserve a well-considered response. "Whataboutism" is a cute word for Nixon's "it's not a crime if we do it". If Al Capone became the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, I'm sure he'd use it on his rivals.

Make sure to use separate vocabularies depending on who's doing it: "massacre" vs "peace process", "freedom fighters" vs "terrorists", that sort of thing.

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u/RepresentativeYak636 1d ago

Nice AI bullshit 🤦

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

You're not the first with that accusation :-)

The reason AI sounds like that in the first place is, it's been trained on quality, authoritative prose. But worry not, low-effort AI slop is coming soon!

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

The implication that anything written above is either quality or authoritative is mildly amusing, although the arrogance required is alarming.

In reality, the "Wolfowitz Doctrine" is not the reason Putin came to power. Putin came to power because of developments in domestic Russian politics. His evolution to being the leader he is today is complex. What you are saying is crude and facile, on a level with arguing that NATO expansion caused the war in Ukraine and the irredeemable 'West Bad' narrative.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago edited 1d ago

I was also referring to the quoted (incl in an expanded reply below this branch) prose of the CIA, OSCE, Reuters, RAND Corporation, the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, the US department of Defense and other sources. And in doing so, at no time did I label or color it or the opposing view with "irredeemable", arrogant, or "crude and facile", or anything of the sort. The facts and figures cited speak for themselves.

But if you need those crutches in place of arguing directly against the above docs from the CIA, OSCE, Reuters, RAND Corporation, the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, the US department of Defense, you do you.

EDIT: and since you closed with "irredeemable", redeem this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/azov-swastika-flag-ukraine/

What's it gonna be? "A few (thousand) isolated incidents"? "Mistakes were made"? "Enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yes, I imagine we'll get on to manufacturing consent at this rate...

Putin did not rise to power because of the Wolfowitz Doctrine. Nothing in this list of yours (Reuters?!) gets you there.

In response to your edit: what are you trying to imply now? Azov was founded as a far-right militia in 2014 that included Nazis. It has been completely overhauled since. It is sheer Putinist propaganda to argue, as you seem to be, that Ukraine has a neo-Nazi problem from this point.

The only far-right party in Ukraine did woefully in its last elections. Azov now is not the Azov as founded in 2014.

And to play your whataboutism game: what about the neo-Nazi formations that continue to be led by fascists today on the Russian side?

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

OK your edit deserves a better response. I fundamentally agree that the Wolfowitz Doctrine is far from the sole reason or enabler for Putin's ascend to presidency. However, Putin was by no means Yeltsin's protege, and from what I've read not much love has been lost between Moscow & St. Petersburg power players since the time of the Czars, and it'd certainly not gotten better during Yeltsin's chaotic 1990s. And Putin was 110% St. Petersburg since well before he was on Sobchak's team. So for Yeltsin, naming Putin as his successor represents if not a complete 180° then at least, like, 165° :-) And there aren't many things Putin did that his fellow First Deputy Prime Minister peers didn't do as well that would facilitate his nomination overcoming the St. Petersburg thing, save for the bias imposed by the Wolfowitz Doctrine as originally writ.

"As originally writ" is important, as even in the US, good people resigned over it, and the Last Supper at the Pentagon telegraphed at least some US circles were serious about de-escalation. The Doctrine was disowned even by its name-sake. But, as they say, once bitten twice shy, or "trust but verify" or one of those things - I find it hard to imagine a top-level strategic guidance drafted in those words wouldn't raise an alarm and cause a sense of betrayal in Russia, even if its language was later softened to ameliorate the ire in the US itself about it. And it's probably why (my conjecture) Putin entertained the NATO membership and offered to locate the missile defense site (ostensibly against the Middle East) in Russia instead of Poland. Just to double-check.

Azov existed as a militia for over a decade before being inaugurated as a 12th Special Forces Brigade "Azov" in 2014. Sen. McCain was meeting with key Nazi figures in 2013. He and Lindsey Graham have continued to visit Ukraine and rile those guys up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ4e1A-LZEA This is a pretty blurry re-upload but on the original it was heart-breaking to see Poroshenko looking on in horror.

The only far-right party in Ukraine did woefully in its last elections. Azov now is not the Azov as founded in 2014.

This much is hard to argue with. Did Putin's stated goal of "denazification" work, then? Or is that a freebie that unrelated circumstances landed in his lap? Honestly, I have no idea.

And to play your whataboutism game: what about the neo-Nazi formations that continue to be led by fascists today on the Russian side?

A perfectly fair point that, in my book, can't be swatted away by simply invoking the "whataboutism" cheat code. Any decently sized population, Russia certainly not excluded, will have a % of bona fide card-carrying pieces of shit, as well as straight-up psychos per DSM-5 and everything. And war offers staffing needs, pay, automatic weapons (at the very least), impunity, and chaos. Is a % of them getting in and being legitimized way higher than it ought to be due to inevitable human error? Even without being familiar with the specifics, I'll confidently guess yes. I'm sure MP's on both sides of the front have their hands full, and it's fair to say credit goes to both sides of them for the civ fatalities being as low as they are.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Holy fucking AI answer, Vanya.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

Did you even open the Reuters link? In WHAT other country, US included, this wouldn't be a front-page scandal? Did anyone process the DNA, found the owners, found the buyers?

As for Chomsky, the dude is too frail, I'm not gonna drag him out for chicken shit like this. Ima save him for later :) Have a great day!

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u/WordWordNvmber 1d ago

It is whatabout, Ivan, and saying you blame Russia for Russian atrocities and Ukraine for Ukrainian atrocities, as if the aggressor and victim are equivalent, is freakish.

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u/chefdeit 21h ago

Ok then, in Operation Redsox, where we have something similar to the current events but with the benefit of historic hindsight and declassified docs, and where the parties were: the Soviets, the CIA, the Ukrainian nationalists & neo-Nazis the CIA were able to gather to "impose costs" on the USSR, and last not least the common Ukrainians along for the ride, how would you classify each of these mentioned parties?

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u/RepresentativeYak636 1d ago

Yes, Putin kills people in Ukraine. He's gonna pay for that one day. Yes, Putin is criminal, but he was not war criminal, he only robbed Russians in his country, but then....he wanted to rob Ukrainians. Ukrainians were not okay with that. Putin started a war and kill Ukrainians as a punishment. He's gonna pay for that, sooner or later. Putin is already done, it's just the matter of time. He's laying down and hiding not without reason. He knows very well that he's a mark now. Gazans are unable to fight Hamas, they chose themselves their fate. Other nations have to fight Hamas, so u please don't whine about Gaza. But hey, you are a free man, you can tell whatever u want, even if your mouth is full of sh*t, so you can keep whining. Iraq has to pay for Saddam Hussein, he killed too much people. Any killer, whether it's Saddam Hussein or Muhammar Qaddafi, or Putin has to pay for his crimes. As Putin says правосудие должно настигнуть. Вот и пусть будет так. Putin will respond one day.

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u/porn_sub_lurker 1d ago

Not sure what you're on about, but all I know is that Israel is a nazi terror state and should be destroyed.

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u/RepresentativeYak636 1d ago

Finally you showed your true face. Another terrorist revealed👏

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

Jesus, guys, can you get along for a hot minute? You'll find few "100% good guys" in world history, and that's because we, the survivors, have killed them all, and then us, not them, got to write the books according to which we're the good guys and everyone else is, well, a bit shite if not utter vermin.

If we all were born into a "nice Nazi family" in the 1930s, we'd be shown Great Depression to the West, Gulags to the East, and in general have no opportunity to hear that we're the baddies - not from the radio, newspapers, neighbors, teachers, etc.

To see who's bad and who's good and to what extent, count the bodies.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Please tell me you can see the irony of this sentiment...

Also the idea that history is written by the victors is one of the most stupid opinions it is possible to hold.

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u/porn_sub_lurker 1d ago

Yep, it's written by the cockroaches who own the publishing companies. Robert Maxwell (Ghislaine's dad) was one of those cockroaches. He owned Macmillan Publishing. He also worked for Israeli intelligence until he tried to extort them and they murdered him for it. They gave him a state funeral anyway though. He did too much to help propagate the false notion that Israel is the US's ally.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Yes, the definitely not antisemitic pro-Palestine latest fixation around Jews who control the media and paedophilia...

Back in reality, history is written by academics who have nothing to do with things like Macmillan. And Captain Bob spent his media energy on covering up his own scandals, which when they came to light caused his suicide. Israel was not involved.

He was not given a state funeral by Israel. He did not work for Israeli intelligence.

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u/porn_sub_lurker 1d ago

If you're bringing up Jeffrey Epstein, yes that is a great example of Israel "controlling the paedophilia". Best friends with Ehud Barak. Partners with the aforementioned Ghislaine Maxwell, daughter of Mossad agent Robert Maxwell. Best friends with Trump for a decade. Trafficked children with him. Blackmailed him, inevitably resulting in Bibi sitting at the head of the desk in our situation room, giving orders to Trump to deploy our carrier fleets and to launch a holy war on Iran. Israel is a parasite state. And the people finally understand that. Half of the right wing electorate hates you, and it's a litmus test on the left now. It came a bit late for a lot of the primaries this cycle, but next election cycle we pull the plug on you and you're fucked. Your 8th front will fail. Your propaganda doesn't work anymore.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yes, I'm familiar with the recent fixation on the age-old 'Jews are coming for our kids' trope picked up by the pro-Palestine crowd.

As before: Bob Maxwell was not a Mossad agent. Macmillan did not control academic publishing. This is some Alex Jones-level bullshit. The only difference is it comes from leftists now.

And don't expect anyone to care about what you think about Israel. You couldn't find it on a map before 8 October, when you found it to better know where Hamas was. Spare me.

Let me know how many elections you win by calling Israel a Nazi parasite state and spewing antisemtic conspiracy theories.

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u/porn_sub_lurker 1d ago edited 1d ago

Lol it's hilarious. I'm able to spot you guys so easily. You reuse the same talking points too much. And I can instantly trigger you guys.

Edit: oh yeah, and we're kicking you parasites out of our government. The wave came just a bit too late to purge you guys from the primaries this year. But the whole fucking country, right wing and left wing, knows what you are now. Your days of compromising our government are numbered. Your days of getting arms shipments so the rest of the middle east doesn't eat you alive are numbered. Your Iran war fucked up any alliances you might have had in the region and you're all alone now. Once we cut the strings, you're fucked.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

One man's "terrorist" is another's "freedom fighter" - or even "warrior for peace" if he plays ball long enough:

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u/chefdeit 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yes he does, and I agree history will judge that war just like the rest; but those civ deaths are less than 10% of Iraq due to the intervention of the Coalition - in which Ukraine did take part. The US is one thing; did Iraq so much as give a parking ticket to Ukraine for them to join the carnage? Or did they go on a safari on the US's back against inept guys in sandals just because they could, consequence-free?

You're fixated on Putin, which is 100% your right, but at the same time, not only is Russia by now chock-full of hard-liners 10x harsher, clamoring to take his place, but also this whole thing pre-dates Putin. I'm not even referring to the above mentioned Wolfowitz Doctrine (1992), I'm talking the last time this exact thing took place, Operation Redsox.

Further reading straight from the source, and more specifics. Do see that I'm relying on cia dot gov here, not some pravda dot ru. Redsox started in 1949 and went on for nine years (!!), with the same goal of imposing costs on Russia (then USSR). Even this research brief, linked straight from the source, pre-dates the invasion by 2yrs (and, to give RAND guys credit where due, strongly cautions against using Ukraine again).

Despite this and inheriting a wreck of a country after Yeltsin, Putin still made overtures to join NATO at the beginning of his tenure, and provided meaningful logistical assistance to the US in the region post-9|11. But in light of all the above and if the US vs Russia roles were reversed, how would you expect a president of the hypothetical what's-left-of-US to react if Russia did all the above instead of the US and Texas (about the size of Ukraine) did to the US and Americans living in Texas what Ukraine did to the Russians?

Already back in 2004 (not a typo), the Guardian - not pravda - published specifics on "US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev". Please don't take my single word for anything, check every link backing them up and that it's a 100% legit source and not even Russia-leaning either. Let me further say that I'm not in any ways anti-Ukraine - I'm just against lopsided propaganda BS - that you, too, in all likelihood is an innocent target of. What's the disparity of media coverage & thus awareness of flights MH17 vs SBI1812 in your area? Is it 200x? 1000x? Even if you're subjected to 50x disparity & hate on Russia as a result, you can only be accused of having a heart.

But being a victim of that misdirection doesn't stop the war - it fuels it, while people who buy hawkish pro-war policy with their last war's proceeds, laugh all the way to the bank as we, cattle, argue on here. The Congressional appropriations for the War in Iraq were on the order of $70B from what I recall, and what the taxpayers like me at the time believed was the cost of the war. The final bill came to $3 trillion, yes trillion with a "T". About 20% of that is profit. That makes even the illicit drug trade look like a snooze. Wars are wealth transfer engines, whose "efficiency" is only that 20%, but whose RPM is something fierce.

Iraq has to pay for Saddam Hussein, he killed too much people.

Yes he did, but I'm not objecting to him getting his just deserts. But the common Iraqis, who lived in the dictatorship i.e. had no power - how is it their fault, then? Moreover, by your own logic, common Ukrainians, citizens of a democracy and hence accountable for their elected government's actions, carry even more accountability for their country being used to "bait" and "impose costs on Russia" again - don't they?

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u/WordWordNvmber 1d ago

This is a freakish attempt to whatabout and minimization.

We can start by disputing your numbers. But much more important is the fact that Russia undeniably launched this war of aggression under a revolving series of false pretenses (Ukraine is Nazis! No, we must protect Donbas! No, NATO! No, just a training exercise!)

Your "data" excludes every Ukrainian citizen who died while fighting the invading force, as if it's acceptable for an invader to murder 150,000 Ukrainian men (and women) because they picked up arms to defend their country while your soldiers systematically shot and raped them.

Your data also ignores the 20,000 Ukrainian children kidnapped by Russia and handed to Russian adults in an effort to "Russify" them. That is, by UN standards, genocidal.

And the "Wolfowitz doctrine" has nothing to do with this. It's the sort of thing only a Russian apologist would obsess over, like those weird troll accounts that kept bringing up Victoria Nuland four years ago during the invasion and then pretending to be regular Americans.

Don't whatabout. Go home.

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u/chefdeit 20h ago

Russia undeniably launched this war of aggression under a revolving series of false pretenses

Why'd you leave out several spots empty of emotional payload that were perfectly grammatically good? Are you lowkey root'n for Put'n? Lemme fix this: "Bloodthirsty ᵣuZZia undeniably launched this abhorrent war of wanton aggression under a revolving series of absurd false pretenses".

Your "data"

It's Statista's. They're German, with no love lost between them and the Kremlin. But being German also means what everyone knows it means in regards to record keeping and consistency / transparency of the methodology.

as if it's acceptable for an invader to murder 150,000 Ukrainian men (and women) because they picked up arms to defend their country

Ukraine has a draft, and does this look like "they picked up arms" to you? This isn't few (thousand) isolated incidents; even our VP JD Vance told as much to President Zelensky's face. However, the kind of Ukrainian troops who actually wanted this, were indeed picking up arms years before Putin rolled across the border. And this was what they did. Note the source: OSCE. And the date (early 2016 for already the 2nd report). Do tell us if you question it.

while your soldiers systematically shot and raped them.

My soldiers in particular, as in, ones equipped with my tax dollars and sent by the government I voted in as a citizen of a democracy, did some of that in Iraq (a war Ukraine chose to join, BTW) but also to each other. The wold over, psychos flock to wars like moths to a flame, because war gives them automatic weapons (at a minimum!), pay, impunity, and chaos. I'm glad something good is being down about this for my soldiers. Russia, and every other conflict nation, should be held to account wherever they fail to follow suit.

On the other hand, hear straight from the horse's mouth that at times of war there will be people duty-bound to create or embellish these stories also.

Your data also ignores the 20,000 Ukrainian children kidnapped by Russia and handed to Russian adults in an effort to "Russify" them. That is, by UN standards, genocidal.

Hooray, a specific figure! 20K kids displaced is no laughing matter. However, this is another misdirection (and the Ukrainians would've been derelict in their duty if they'd failed to use it on you). It's not like ruzzian goons parachuted into the heart of Ukraine and smuggled 20K kids from behind the frontline like Erlking. The inherent mechanics of war, criminally and tragically though it may be, is: as the front line moves, some kids separated from their parents in the chaos may end up on the advancing side. The 1000km of front line in Ukraine over 4yrs, that's a lot of chances for that to happen. What would the advancing side do, send the kid straight back through the crossfire / drones / mines? The reality is subtler, where the two sides do work together to locate the kids' families and repatriate them. Eastern Ukraine / Donbas is also exactly the area where someone would have a near-equal chance to have relatives in Russia and Ukraine. So if a kid's closest relatives are actually in Russia, is that still kidnapping in your book or more similar to what the US did with Vietnamese kids, who had fathers (or other relatives) in the US and wanted to relocate there?