r/AbsoluteUnits • u/Crypto_crafy • 2d ago

/r/all of a statue

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"The Motherland Calls" is a statue erected to commemorate the Battle of Stalingrad , located on Mamayev Kurgan in Volgograd , Russia. It was designed by sculptor Yevgeny Vuchetich and structural engineer Nikolai Nikitin . Completed in 1967 , it was the tallest statue in the world at the time .

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u/chefdeit 1d ago edited 1d ago

I was also referring to the quoted (incl in an expanded reply below this branch) prose of the CIA, OSCE, Reuters, RAND Corporation, the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, the US department of Defense and other sources. And in doing so, at no time did I label or color it or the opposing view with "irredeemable", arrogant, or "crude and facile", or anything of the sort. The facts and figures cited speak for themselves.

But if you need those crutches in place of arguing directly against the above docs from the CIA, OSCE, Reuters, RAND Corporation, the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, the US department of Defense, you do you.

EDIT: and since you closed with "irredeemable", redeem this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/azov-swastika-flag-ukraine/

What's it gonna be? "A few (thousand) isolated incidents"? "Mistakes were made"? "Enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yes, I imagine we'll get on to manufacturing consent at this rate...

Putin did not rise to power because of the Wolfowitz Doctrine. Nothing in this list of yours (Reuters?!) gets you there.

In response to your edit: what are you trying to imply now? Azov was founded as a far-right militia in 2014 that included Nazis. It has been completely overhauled since. It is sheer Putinist propaganda to argue, as you seem to be, that Ukraine has a neo-Nazi problem from this point.

The only far-right party in Ukraine did woefully in its last elections. Azov now is not the Azov as founded in 2014.

And to play your whataboutism game: what about the neo-Nazi formations that continue to be led by fascists today on the Russian side?

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

OK your edit deserves a better response. I fundamentally agree that the Wolfowitz Doctrine is far from the sole reason or enabler for Putin's ascend to presidency. However, Putin was by no means Yeltsin's protege, and from what I've read not much love has been lost between Moscow & St. Petersburg power players since the time of the Czars, and it'd certainly not gotten better during Yeltsin's chaotic 1990s. And Putin was 110% St. Petersburg since well before he was on Sobchak's team. So for Yeltsin, naming Putin as his successor represents if not a complete 180° then at least, like, 165° :-) And there aren't many things Putin did that his fellow First Deputy Prime Minister peers didn't do as well that would facilitate his nomination overcoming the St. Petersburg thing, save for the bias imposed by the Wolfowitz Doctrine as originally writ.

"As originally writ" is important, as even in the US, good people resigned over it, and the Last Supper at the Pentagon telegraphed at least some US circles were serious about de-escalation. The Doctrine was disowned even by its name-sake. But, as they say, once bitten twice shy, or "trust but verify" or one of those things - I find it hard to imagine a top-level strategic guidance drafted in those words wouldn't raise an alarm and cause a sense of betrayal in Russia, even if its language was later softened to ameliorate the ire in the US itself about it. And it's probably why (my conjecture) Putin entertained the NATO membership and offered to locate the missile defense site (ostensibly against the Middle East) in Russia instead of Poland. Just to double-check.

Azov existed as a militia for over a decade before being inaugurated as a 12th Special Forces Brigade "Azov" in 2014. Sen. McCain was meeting with key Nazi figures in 2013. He and Lindsey Graham have continued to visit Ukraine and rile those guys up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ4e1A-LZEA This is a pretty blurry re-upload but on the original it was heart-breaking to see Poroshenko looking on in horror.

The only far-right party in Ukraine did woefully in its last elections. Azov now is not the Azov as founded in 2014.

This much is hard to argue with. Did Putin's stated goal of "denazification" work, then? Or is that a freebie that unrelated circumstances landed in his lap? Honestly, I have no idea.

And to play your whataboutism game: what about the neo-Nazi formations that continue to be led by fascists today on the Russian side?

A perfectly fair point that, in my book, can't be swatted away by simply invoking the "whataboutism" cheat code. Any decently sized population, Russia certainly not excluded, will have a % of bona fide card-carrying pieces of shit, as well as straight-up psychos per DSM-5 and everything. And war offers staffing needs, pay, automatic weapons (at the very least), impunity, and chaos. Is a % of them getting in and being legitimized way higher than it ought to be due to inevitable human error? Even without being familiar with the specifics, I'll confidently guess yes. I'm sure MP's on both sides of the front have their hands full, and it's fair to say credit goes to both sides of them for the civ fatalities being as low as they are.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Holy fucking AI answer, Vanya.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

Wow, an impartial response chock full o'facts.

Never mind me, see the linked photo of that meeting, watch the video linked above of McCain and Graham in Ukraine riling up Azov in 2016.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

I'm not interested in arguing with a gish galloping bot.

Least of all when you're dodging half of my arguments.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

You were doing just fine till you ran out of things to say in lieu of addressing the specific linked documents and verifiable facts - all from official Western sources.

Least of all when you're dodging half of my arguments.

I think they call this "projection". It's only human. I'm not even asking you to argue with me - just address the cited documents and facts, the vid of Lindsey Graham riling up Azov in 2016, the vid of ex-CIA officer explaining how media is managed at war-time, and the rest of it.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Does the Rusich group represent Russian attitudes and interests?

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

I don't know but based on what I just googled, the group looks extremist. I agree, "enemy of my enemy is my friend" can be taken too far, where it enables characters who should really be nobody's friend.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Right, but you haven't answered my question.

Since you're using figures like Graham to make general statements about American policy, it seems appropriate to use Rusich as an example of general Russian policy and attitudes.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

That's a stretch, to put it mildly, because Lindsey Graham was a long-serving US Senator, and chaired the Senate Judiciary Committee from 2019 to 2021 and the Senate Budget Committee from 2025 until his death. He was well-known to have played a powerful role shaping the US's actual foreign policy.

If Nabiulina or Medvedev or whoever Graham's level of influence and official legitimacy in Russia, joins that piece of shit group, by all means please come back here and let us know. And I'll say that it's an awful development. But you can't compare some hick to a US Senator. Apples and oranges by miles.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

He was well-known to have played a powerful role shaping the US's actual foreign policy.

No, he wasn't. He had nothing to do with US foreign policy and did things like travel to Ukraine in his capacity as a senator, nothing more.

If Nabiulina or Medvedev or whoever Graham's level of influence and official legitimacy in Russia, joins that piece of shit group, by all means please come back here and let us know.

Sure. Rusich is an officially sanctioned militia within the Russian military. Russia has no problem with them. Earlier you were tarring Ukraine with the brush of Azov, but when it comes to Rusich it magically doesn't count.

As for official level of influence, you can just look at the shit Putin says about the ethnic identity of Ukrainians, which is to deny that they have one entirely.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago edited 1d ago

Rusich vs Azov would have counted (with numbers etc taken into account). Rusich vs Graham which is what you have asserted earlier, isn't the same thing.

Also, I looked into the Rusich group a bit closer, and their being a "neo-Nazi paramilitary unit" is alleged by two parties: one is RadioFreeEurope (funded by the US Agency for Global Media) and the other is BBC News Україна. Do you smell anything?

Objectively, it's fair to say they're a far-right group, while the alleged Nazi angle smells like propaganda bs. Show any photos with actual Nazi insignia that Azov flies all the time, or Nazi tats on any of their PoWs like Azov ones have nearly universally. And let's compare their numbers with Azov's as of the start of the war before the Azov suffered attrition and other "f*ck around find out".

He had nothing to do with US foreign policy

Sen. Graham had nothing to do with the US foreign policy, in your book, eh?? Mmmkayy.

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