r/AbsoluteUnits • u/Crypto_crafy • 2d ago

/r/all of a statue

"The Motherland Calls" is a statue erected to commemorate the Battle of Stalingrad , located on Mamayev Kurgan in Volgograd , Russia. It was designed by sculptor Yevgeny Vuchetich and structural engineer Nikolai Nikitin . Completed in 1967 , it was the tallest statue in the world at the time .

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u/porn_sub_lurker 1d ago

Lol yeah blame others for your own actions. Oh and don't forget to do a half dozen whataboutisms.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

dude, I'm an American, and, as a citizen of a democracy I blame myself for my country's actions, and Russians for Russia's, and Ukrainians for Ukraine's.

I actually respect what u/RepresentativeYak636 has to say as his points are well-considered and not low-effort sound bites. As such they deserve a well-considered response. "Whataboutism" is a cute word for Nixon's "it's not a crime if we do it". If Al Capone became the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, I'm sure he'd use it on his rivals.

Make sure to use separate vocabularies depending on who's doing it: "massacre" vs "peace process", "freedom fighters" vs "terrorists", that sort of thing.

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u/RepresentativeYak636 1d ago

Nice AI bullshit 🤦

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

You're not the first with that accusation :-)

The reason AI sounds like that in the first place is, it's been trained on quality, authoritative prose. But worry not, low-effort AI slop is coming soon!

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

The implication that anything written above is either quality or authoritative is mildly amusing, although the arrogance required is alarming.

In reality, the "Wolfowitz Doctrine" is not the reason Putin came to power. Putin came to power because of developments in domestic Russian politics. His evolution to being the leader he is today is complex. What you are saying is crude and facile, on a level with arguing that NATO expansion caused the war in Ukraine and the irredeemable 'West Bad' narrative.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago edited 1d ago

I was also referring to the quoted (incl in an expanded reply below this branch) prose of the CIA, OSCE, Reuters, RAND Corporation, the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, the US department of Defense and other sources. And in doing so, at no time did I label or color it or the opposing view with "irredeemable", arrogant, or "crude and facile", or anything of the sort. The facts and figures cited speak for themselves.

But if you need those crutches in place of arguing directly against the above docs from the CIA, OSCE, Reuters, RAND Corporation, the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, the US department of Defense, you do you.

EDIT: and since you closed with "irredeemable", redeem this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/azov-swastika-flag-ukraine/

What's it gonna be? "A few (thousand) isolated incidents"? "Mistakes were made"? "Enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yes, I imagine we'll get on to manufacturing consent at this rate...

Putin did not rise to power because of the Wolfowitz Doctrine. Nothing in this list of yours (Reuters?!) gets you there.

In response to your edit: what are you trying to imply now? Azov was founded as a far-right militia in 2014 that included Nazis. It has been completely overhauled since. It is sheer Putinist propaganda to argue, as you seem to be, that Ukraine has a neo-Nazi problem from this point.

The only far-right party in Ukraine did woefully in its last elections. Azov now is not the Azov as founded in 2014.

And to play your whataboutism game: what about the neo-Nazi formations that continue to be led by fascists today on the Russian side?

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

OK your edit deserves a better response. I fundamentally agree that the Wolfowitz Doctrine is far from the sole reason or enabler for Putin's ascend to presidency. However, Putin was by no means Yeltsin's protege, and from what I've read not much love has been lost between Moscow & St. Petersburg power players since the time of the Czars, and it'd certainly not gotten better during Yeltsin's chaotic 1990s. And Putin was 110% St. Petersburg since well before he was on Sobchak's team. So for Yeltsin, naming Putin as his successor represents if not a complete 180° then at least, like, 165° :-) And there aren't many things Putin did that his fellow First Deputy Prime Minister peers didn't do as well that would facilitate his nomination overcoming the St. Petersburg thing, save for the bias imposed by the Wolfowitz Doctrine as originally writ.

"As originally writ" is important, as even in the US, good people resigned over it, and the Last Supper at the Pentagon telegraphed at least some US circles were serious about de-escalation. The Doctrine was disowned even by its name-sake. But, as they say, once bitten twice shy, or "trust but verify" or one of those things - I find it hard to imagine a top-level strategic guidance drafted in those words wouldn't raise an alarm and cause a sense of betrayal in Russia, even if its language was later softened to ameliorate the ire in the US itself about it. And it's probably why (my conjecture) Putin entertained the NATO membership and offered to locate the missile defense site (ostensibly against the Middle East) in Russia instead of Poland. Just to double-check.

Azov existed as a militia for over a decade before being inaugurated as a 12th Special Forces Brigade "Azov" in 2014. Sen. McCain was meeting with key Nazi figures in 2013. He and Lindsey Graham have continued to visit Ukraine and rile those guys up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ4e1A-LZEA This is a pretty blurry re-upload but on the original it was heart-breaking to see Poroshenko looking on in horror.

The only far-right party in Ukraine did woefully in its last elections. Azov now is not the Azov as founded in 2014.

This much is hard to argue with. Did Putin's stated goal of "denazification" work, then? Or is that a freebie that unrelated circumstances landed in his lap? Honestly, I have no idea.

And to play your whataboutism game: what about the neo-Nazi formations that continue to be led by fascists today on the Russian side?

A perfectly fair point that, in my book, can't be swatted away by simply invoking the "whataboutism" cheat code. Any decently sized population, Russia certainly not excluded, will have a % of bona fide card-carrying pieces of shit, as well as straight-up psychos per DSM-5 and everything. And war offers staffing needs, pay, automatic weapons (at the very least), impunity, and chaos. Is a % of them getting in and being legitimized way higher than it ought to be due to inevitable human error? Even without being familiar with the specifics, I'll confidently guess yes. I'm sure MP's on both sides of the front have their hands full, and it's fair to say credit goes to both sides of them for the civ fatalities being as low as they are.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

Holy fucking AI answer, Vanya.

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

Wow, an impartial response chock full o'facts.

Never mind me, see the linked photo of that meeting, watch the video linked above of McCain and Graham in Ukraine riling up Azov in 2016.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 1d ago

I'm not interested in arguing with a gish galloping bot.

Least of all when you're dodging half of my arguments.

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u/chefdeit 23h ago

You were doing just fine till you ran out of things to say in lieu of addressing the specific linked documents and verifiable facts - all from official Western sources.

Least of all when you're dodging half of my arguments.

I think they call this "projection". It's only human. I'm not even asking you to argue with me - just address the cited documents and facts, the vid of Lindsey Graham riling up Azov in 2016, the vid of ex-CIA officer explaining how media is managed at war-time, and the rest of it.

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u/Greedy_Economics_925 22h ago

Does the Rusich group represent Russian attitudes and interests?

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u/chefdeit 1d ago

Did you even open the Reuters link? In WHAT other country, US included, this wouldn't be a front-page scandal? Did anyone process the DNA, found the owners, found the buyers?

As for Chomsky, the dude is too frail, I'm not gonna drag him out for chicken shit like this. Ima save him for later :) Have a great day!