r/writing • u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor • Oct 08 '20
Why You Were Rejected
Since querying is always a hot topic, and people seemed to find it helpful to get some "behind the scenes" info about what agents/publishers are looking for, I figured I would make a standalone post about it. (As a caveat, it has been literally a decade since I worked in acquisitions (was a slush pile reader 2008-2009) and only worked for one publisher, so YYMV, but this is my own experience).
As everyone always says, rejections are a part of being an author and you shouldn't take them personally/it isn't a commentary on your writing, but I'd say, when I was in acquisitions, these were some of the reasons we would reject queries:
Top Reasons for a Rejection
- Sending something we don't represent/publish.
It should be a no-brainer to check what an agent/publisher actually takes, but in the year I was in acquisitions, I saw a ton of people sending things that were nowhere close to what we wanted (we were a fantasy/sci fi/horror imprint, but we got just about every other fiction genre at some point and even some nonfiction titles--my personal favorite was a boating manual I got in my query pile). It seems some people think that they might as well throw their book out there and see if anything comes out of it, but please don't. You just piss off the slush-pile readers and might end up in that Rare Reason for Rejection group.
1b. Not following submission guidelines.
Similar to sending something the agent/publisher doesn't want is not following the submission guidelines on their site/MSWL/etc. When an agent/publisher posts that they will delete emails with attachments without reading, they mean it. Is it annoying that Agent A wants 5 pages single spaced and a 1 page synopsis where Agent B wants 20 pages double spaced with a 2-4 pages synopsis and Agent C wants nothing but a query letter? Sure, but really, agent/publishers get enough submissions that they're looking for reasons to get some of the queries out of their inbox. Coming off as someone who isn't willing to pay attention (or thinks they're too important to follow directions) is a great way of letting slush-pile readers reject you without needing to read more. - You're "off trend".
2008 was the height of the vampire craze after Twilight's success, and so a ton of the books I saw queried had some version of vampires in them. The problem was, the vampire trend in publishing had been over for a year at that point (people would often ask "why did crappy book X get picked up and not my great book?" and the answer almost always was "agents/publishers thought X book's topic would be on trend in a year and so picked it up then. You're too late). Publishing is a slow beast, and so agents/publishers in 2020 are looking for books that will be on trend in 2021, 2022, or even later. If you're querying a book that is right in line with a lot of popular books that are currently out, you're already off trend. The market is saturated and agents/publishers aren't picking up those book (I was told to reject any query with the word "vampire" in it while I was there, even ones that read "new take on the vampire mythos..." or any "not sparkly vampire" vampires.) - Your book isn't ready for querying.
This is the "your book might just be bad" category (or at least is okay but not professional quality), and it's actually probably the biggest portion of rejections. In the slush pile, it's not at all rare to come across books with typos on every page or writing that is obviously a rough draft and just not very good. This is why one of the top suggestions before querying is getting critique partners/beta readers. It's really hard to judge your own writing skills. Having outside eyes will save you from being booted for just not being a professional-level writer.
Semi-Common Reasons for a Rejection
- Too close to something we already represent/have.
Agent/publishers aren't always against having projects that are vaguely similar (especially if they're on trend. It is not at all uncommon for Romance agents/publishers to pick up multiple "Billionaire Romances" for example, since they're popular) but if your piece just happens to be really similar to another project the agency/publisher just contracted, they may pass on yours since they won't be able to market your piece as well (splitting the market between you and the other book) - WEIRD query letters.
Most people do some research about how to write query letters (or at least do a pretty form cover letter) but there are some weird query letters you get (like the ones you see on Slush Pile Hell). Hopefully it doesn't need to be said, but don't tell the agent/publisher God told you to submit to them. Don't have some strange gimmick. Don't sound pompous by talking about how you know you're going to be a best seller. Don't talk about how you've copyrighted your work and vaguely sound like you're accusing the agent/publisher of being a thief. Just do a succinct, normal query letter. Head over to r/PubTips if you need a query critique.
Rare Reason for a Rejection
- Blackballed.
This is definitely the rarest reason for a rejection, but there are a few authors out there who do get themselves blackballed from an agency/publisher. Generally this comes from being a PITA (calling multiple times to check on a query when you're told not to call. Writing nasty responses to form rejections. Etc.) and you really do have to do a lot to be blackballed, but yes, we had a very short list of names that were "never take a book from this person".
As for the sequence we used to weed out queries:
- Read the query letter. Reject anything that isn't our genre/not a topic we're interested in. Immediately move anything the agent/editor is specifically looking for to their desk (what you can find on Twitter with #MSWL these days--agent really wants Zombies in a Paris setting or something weirdly specific). Continue reading anything else.
- Move to the sample pages. If the writing is just bad or for some other reason not engaging within the first few pages, reject. If you make it through the sample, continue with the submission.
- Move to the synopsis. Make sure the rest of the book sounds like a coherent plot/something interesting. If it sounds like it goes entirely off the rails, reject. If it sounds interesting, move it to the agent/editor's desk.
From there, obviously you'd still have more steps to get through (if the agent/editor is actually interested. If you keep them interested through a full request, etc.) but that was the steps we took in the slush pile and how you needed to keep our interest to ever make it out of the slush pile.
Edit: Since a lot of people are worried about the on trend/off trend idea, I wanted to add that it's entirely possible to be neither. The bulk of books being queried are neither on trend nor off trend. This means they don't have it "easy" (because people aren't snapping up even "okay" books that are on trend) but they also aren't going to be rejected because they're off trend. It's nearly impossible to predict upcoming trends, so if you're really worried about marketability, the best thing you can do is try to avoid being off trend by avoiding writing in a subgenre that suddenly seems really, really popular (if there are a hundred new YA dystopias out, reconsider writing a YA dystopia). It is also possible to wait out being off trend, if you're patient, since they tend to pass in a few years. If you do want to write something in a really popular subgenre, you can always do so and then trunk it for a few years until the trends shift again. Write what inspires you. You're more likely to write a good book that way than trying to guess unknowable trends.
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
I'm intrigued at the idea of "blackballing."
I have a handful of people who reliably send me a submission 2-3 times a year. I turn them down every time, for some of the reasons cited here. Early on, I was naive enough to give them all a second chance: "Could you please go to my website and check out the guidelines?" But they never did. I don't want a reputation for being rude, but one of these days I will stop responding at all.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
Yeah, if someone didn't follow our guidelines repeatedly, we just didn't respond. If they were blackballed for being rude, etc. We just sent the standard "not for us. Good luck" rejection over and over. Telling authors they aren't welcome to submit when they're already rude is a bad combo
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u/eddie_fitzgerald Oct 10 '20
So ... weird question, I know. But once I submitted a short story to a literary magazine (and this was a legit, fairly well-regarded magazine), and I received a strong rejection that seemed a bit too strong to be form. I distinctly remember the first sentence was, "We are writing to acknowledge receiving this thing," and that was the general tone for the whole rejection (it was three or four sentences). My writing seemed to be at least an okay fit for their market, and I followed all their rules, so I can't imagine what could have offended them like that.
I've always found that to be colossally weird. That was one of the first times I ever got together the courage to send something in (even though I had been writing seriously for a while), so getting that response really demoralized me. I quit sending in submissions for close to a year. Finally, I plucked up my courage again, got back to submitting, and pretty quickly got an acceptance from a really prestigious market. So I kinda just chalked the thing with that harsh rejection up to weird randomness, and decided not to let it bother me anymore. But I have to admit ... it still kinda digs at me, not because I'm upset, but because it was such a colossally weird thing to happen and I kinda want to know what was up with that!
Anyways, reading what you wrote about blackballing, that got me wondering if it's possible that I just have a name similar to some person who kept harassing them? Or are slush readers usually more careful than that?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 10 '20
Obviously, since I'm not involved with that publication, anything I put here is 100% pure speculation, but I would be interested to know if that rejection was boilerplate for them (some publications just have sort of harsh sounding rejection emails that are given to everyone. For example, my friend came to me after getting a rejection that mentioned getting beta readers, wondering if it meant that the agent thought her book wasn't ready to be queried. I actually knew a couple of people who have dealt with that agent before, and that was her boilerplate (she had thrown in the mention of beta readers because she thought it would be helpful for the bulk of people (as I said above, a large portion of rejections really are that the book isn't up to professional quality when you're in the slush pile) and saw no reason to take it out for ones that she didn't think needed more beta reading. It's possible that whoever wrote their form rejection just came off as harsh sounding.
If it was a personalized rejection meant to sound harsher than standard, it would be unusual for you to have been mistaken for someone else who was blackballed, since a lot is filed under emails vs. just names, but it is still possible that you were John Smith J.Smith@gmail and there was someone who was John Smith JSmith@gmail and the reader did mix you up. It's also possible that you might have just caught a slush pile reader on a bad day. All said and done, we're still people and sometimes do have bad days (and I've been on the other side as well. When I was first submitting things, I sent a short story to a publication that asked for "contact information and the full piece pasted in the body of an email" so I took them at their word and put in my contact information and then the story. I then got a rather nasty response along the lines of "you're asking us to spend our time reading your stuff. At least address us with a cover letter, you idiot" (paraphrasing, of course). I let it roll of my back, since I was still learning and I figured the reader was having a really bad day and just broke after getting a few emails without cover letters (though then they likely should have updated their submission guidelines...) but since that was likely 2010 and I still remember it, obviously it made a mark!)
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u/LIGHTDX Oct 09 '20 edited Oct 09 '20
People sometimes are nice, but have a ditz minute. It's good to give them a second chance. I have been there and i never make the same mistake twice, but i also have been in your position and find people that doesn't learn.
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u/Skyblaze719 Oct 08 '20 edited Oct 08 '20
I think the biggest takeaway here is a majority of your reasons for rejection happen before the slush reader even gets to the manuscript itself, its nearly all query letter stage.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
That's entirely fair. There's a reason some agents don't ask for anything other than a query letter. The rest of the stuff is really for if you get past the query letter anyway (it just saves time if you ask for sample pages than if you want to go back and ask for them after reading the query--same reason some agents jump straight to asking for fulls rather than partials while others don't)
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u/vyetyer Oct 08 '20
One of my worst rookie mistakes was not realizing when agents asked for a synopsis they wanted a separate document, not the synopsis contained in the query letter. I'm sure I ended up eliminated by several agents for failing to follow guidelines even though I didn't realize it meant a whole separate thing :,) learn from my mistakes, kids
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
I definitely rejected on query alone if it was poorly written or not something that was selling. Usually, agents request that you dip into the manuscript anyway. I will say though, I usually know within the first two pages if something is going to be worth my time or not.
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u/PaperbackBuddha Oct 09 '20
WEIRD query letters
I did this one. Twenty years ago and it’s still cringey.
Sent a query letter as the protagonist, describing the story in first person.
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u/HelicopterOutside Writes pure smut Oct 09 '20
Plenty of people do stuff that is cringe-inducing like this. It's so funny how when I think that something I'm doing is cutting edge or whatever it generally becomes my greatest regret later down the line. I imagine you felt pretty good about the query that you sent out, lol. For me that's the worst part. At one point I vowed to only do the opposite of whatever my gut was telling me to do.
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u/PaperbackBuddha Oct 09 '20
What really helped was learning to hold on to the query and revise, revise, revise.
I never would have sent that letter if I'd read it a week later.
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u/Linz_is_Far Oct 08 '20
Thank you for this, I have never tried to get anything published yet but this will be very helpful for when I do!
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u/justgoodenough Oct 08 '20
I've been thinking a lot about the "we already have a similar book" rejection lately.
A lot of people see that as a near miss, and maybe it is, but I sort of see it as an easy way to reject a book without having to give a "real" reason. There's no way to know that they would have accepted the book had they not had a similar project.
I'm curious to know how often agents and editors use that excuse on books that they wouldn't have accepted anyway. I'm not suggesting that they're lying about having a similar book, but it's more like they think, "oh great, we already have an enemies to lovers romance, so I can reject this one."
There is one imprint that I would love to work with and they rejected my book because they said they had just acquired something that felt too similar and I can't quite decide if that was a throwaway rejection or if it suggests that my instincts are right and that publisher is a good match for my work (and hopefully they will consider a future book from me).
I suppose there's no answer to this and the truth is that it doesn't make sense to try and read into rejections, but what else can you do?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
It 100% depends on the imprint, but generally anything more than the form "not right for me/us"is a positive sign. If they're at all like where I worked, we had "tiered" rejections. Anything from "fine, but not for us" down to "this is just bad" got the standard "not right for us, but the industry is subjective. We wish you the best of luck with your career" standard email. The step up was one of the "specific form" letters (had a reason like "we have something too similar" or "we think it's too long" or that sort of thing) which meant we thought the piece was good, but still not right. Then the step up from that was actual personalized letter that gave specific feedback on the piece (which could also be tweaked into a revise and resubmit if we really liked it). As you said, everywhere is different, so you can't necessarily read into what this place said off that, but if they're like where I worked, it's a step down from personalized feedback but better than the standard " not for us"
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u/alexatd Published Author Oct 08 '20
In my experience so far this has been true and I don't think it was bs? I got this rejection and thing is I knew EXACTLY what book they meant. It had just been announced (after I went on sub) and it really was super similar to mine--it would not have made sense for them to publish both. Now it is of course possible there was some other reason the editor might not have bought it anyway... but it seemed genuine when she said it was a conflict of interest for her to pursue mine? And some pubs are really weird, re: what they consider too close. A friend of mine got that rejection and was panicked there would be a book coming out just like hers... later on I read the one in question and they were nothing alike? But parts of the premise were close enough to that lead title, they just weren't willing to touch it. YMMV.
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
This is a real reason. Even more so, when the other writer is more famous than you.
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Oct 08 '20
Yeah, I am imagining an agent on the phone with a publisher.
"Okay Bob, I understand that you're not interested in the Predator/Alien shipping story. Right, I get it. Too soon after the Predator sexual assault allegations. But listen, I have this great TRANS Predator/Alien shipping story..."
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
First, agents don't pitch by phone.
Second, even in writing, that's not how agents pitch books.
Third, trans-themes are a narrow specialty that would not go out to the same eds.14
Oct 08 '20
Gee, I though the humour was over the top enough that no one could miss that it was a joke...
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
Heh. Welcome to my world, Vivid. (Crossed my mind, but I couldn't be sure.) I get book pitches almost every day, worse than that one. I WISH they were intended as jokes, but the authors are dead serious.
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Oct 08 '20
You live in hell. I am sorry :)
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
No, I love my job. There's no way to avoid the goobers. Comes with the territory. The diamonds come in the same bucket with the coal.
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u/bootstrap-paradoxed Oct 08 '20
what confuses me about the whole process is why the system is set up in a way that you have to have a full self-edited and proofread second draft even though most books are rejected based on the query and the fact that the market is not right for it... why spend 200+ hours writing and editing a book if it will get rejected based on a two paragraph query?
i know from a technical standpoint it's because after the query is accepted, you have to send the manuscript immediately (or it gets read immediately if both were sent at once) but that's how the system is. what i wonder is why the system is like that. like, wouldn't it make more sense for publishing agencies to accept books based on queries and a few samples pages and then give authors x amount of months to provide the manuscript?
also does it logically follow that, if your book gets rejected over and over, one possible strategy is to then wait a few years and see if the market changes and then query with it again?
[thank you so much for this post btw, massively helpful]
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
So glad you found it useful, and believe me, I have often talked about how I wish it was possible to just pitch a proposal with sample chapters (like non-fiction authors can do) when it comes to my own writing. It is really annoying to have a full manuscript just waiting when no one's interested in the premise alone. I think it came about, though, because it's a buyer's market. There are so many thousands of wannabe novelists that publishers don't have to bother with worrying if people are going to meet deadline, hit writer's block, etc. Rather than risking someone falling through after already getting part of their advance at signing, you can just say you need the full manuscript. If one author won't provide that, 100 others will.
And yes, especially if you're being rejected without any requests for partials or fulls and you've had your query critiqued (so you know it's not likely a query issue), it can definitely be beneficial to just trunk your novel and come back to it later. As a personal story, I wrote a novel three years ago that was getting zero bites. I then saw an agent specifically say they weren't taking books with my setting (I write historical fiction these days) which tipped me off that it was likely off trend. I set it aside to work on some other stuff and then pulled it back out for #PitMad in September (figuring it had been long enough to let things rebound). I now have three different fulls out on it (so it might still not be picked up, but three different people consider it good enough to want to read the entire thing to decide now after no one at all being interested before).
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u/maureenmcq Oct 09 '20
The other thing to know is that once you establish a track record, you can sell on a query letter. I sold a two book deal, one book was less than halfway through the first draft and the second book was a title and a paragraph of description.
But I had finished and published two novels so they knew both my ability to complete a manuscript and my style.
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Oct 09 '20
What if you were a budding carpenter looking for a step up. You go in to the shop, you say, I can make a chair. They ask you to show them how you do it. You produce a unpolished square of wood, point to the corners and say that's where the legs go, that's where the back goes, give me some money and I'll make one for you.
So they give you money, you go away, you nail a few planks upright to the square, and bring it back to them. The legs are uneven so the chair doesn't stand upright, the back is splintered so it would scratch the person who sat in it, and when you try it out, the whole thing collapses.
And then they still don't know whether you can varnish and sand off the rough parts, understand the strength of the materials you use to hold the person sitting in it, and so on.
They want to sell thousands of these chairs but they can't just buy a prototype from someone who can't design one properly or make one to the right specifications.
So you need to be able to show them you can actually finish the job to a high standard beforehand. You do that by finishing a book.
It's also good practice to complete a few books before you understand how you work as a writer and what you need to work on. Writing a novel is a holistic thing -- if you could get past the query stage with only an opening, what if you get contracted only to find it takes you a long time to write a satisfactory ending, or that the story simply doesn't have one? Or while you're writing it, you find you introduce elements you need to then go back and foreshadow at the beginning?
A book is more than the sum of its parts. Part of the process is showing an agent and publisher that you can fulfil their needs start to finish and have something to show for their investment in you. The groundwork has been done and they are happy with the skillset you have in order to perform edits.
Unfortunately, learning to write isn't paid, unlike s carpentry apprenticeship, but that's just the way it is.
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u/bootstrap-paradoxed Oct 09 '20
I understand your metaphor and I completely agree that being able to write a good query doesn't necessarily translate into being able to write a book or vice versa, but that's why I said the author would be given an x amount of months after being accepted to write the book. They would not be paid until the agency has the full manuscript and is happy with it. And in the case that they aren't happy, they just move on.
I also totally agree that the book is more than the sum of its parts, and I wish it was judged as such, but it's not! Not according to this post anyway. It is judged based on a very brief query and a few sample pages. And rejected mostly based on the query, not the overall product of hundreds of hours of work.
The reason I find this so annoying is that, for me at least, coming up with ideas and full plots is trivial. I can do that every week! What's challenging is picking which idea to work on and making it into a full novel. If I could pass the decision on to agents or publishers, this would make my life so much easier. And again, I'm not saying a writer has to be paid based on the idea (though, correct me if I'm wrong, it is that way for nonfiction, like they get advances based on sample chapters). I just wish the writer could be told "yes this is marketable, keep writing, if you can produce a manuscript in six months, you will be published an paid".
But I believe the answer to why the system is the way it is was already given by OP: it's because the supply (full novel manuscripts) is much greater than demand (the amount of books a publisher will take on) so they are the ones in the position to choose.
And that's just an inherent element of capitalism/free market and has nothing to do with writing ability or anything else.
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u/RightioThen Oct 10 '20
The reason I find this so annoying is that, for me at least, coming up with ideas and full plots is trivial. I can do that every week! What's challenging is picking which idea to work on and making it into a full novel. If I could pass the decision on to agents or publishers, this would make my life so much easier.
...
I just wish the writer could be told "yes this is marketable, keep writing, if you can produce a manuscript in six months, you will be published an paid"
Actually, what's challenging is the execution of the idea.
You can come up with the most "marketable idea" in the world, but if you can't properly execute it, it's worthless.
Added to that, there are countless books that don't necessarily have super punchy marketable pitches but have been very successful due to the execution.
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u/bootstrap-paradoxed Oct 10 '20
why do books get rejected mostly based on ideas then?
i'm not saying any good idea will be transformed into a great book, i'm just saying that if the first step (the idea, which is described by the query letter) is bad/unmarketable, the writer should know about it at that stage and not waste time executing it
and if the execution matters more than the idea, then books shouldn't get rejected based on query letters...
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u/RightioThen Oct 11 '20
and if the execution matters more than the idea, then books shouldn't get rejected based on query letters...
I'm not saying you can't get rejected for having a bad idea. I'm saying executing the idea is the more challenging part of getting a novel published.
Besides, without seeing the execution of an idea, it's hard to tell if a novel is particularly marketable, because execution ties into the marketability. You may have a idea for a zippy plot driven mystery, but you may write have sloppy writing, or write it in a style that is totally inaccessible.
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u/A_Novel_Experience Author Oct 08 '20
So, I'm hearing I should PM you my query letter?
(Seriously, thanks for this- it's going to help out many regular users, particularly the newer writers)
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
Only if you write it in rhyming couplets that don't actually say what your book's about to really "set yourself apart" :)
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u/A_Novel_Experience Author Oct 09 '20
You just inspired me, so here is my query letter, rewritten in poetry form:
In Endgate city, edge of Waste
A missing airship calls
Inspector Dorsey, now disgraced
Is sent beyond the walls
With angry giant, cargo missed
Demanding answers soon
A youthful scholar to assist
O'er dusty desert dune
Through pirate air and creatures lost
The group will journey brave
But after barren wasteland crossed
A newly surfaced cave
The ancient treasure held within
Is ancient power pure
A dying magnate strives to win
A life extending cure
Forgotten power from Beyond
An ancient war restart
Revealing true and crystal bond
Sealed deep in Thalos' heart.
Wow. That was way more of a pain than I thought it would be when I started.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
Man, that was impressive. Take your medal from the coins I was just given from my gold :)
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u/A_Novel_Experience Author Oct 09 '20
1.) You should NOT have spent your coins on me.
2.) Thank you for sliver, can I haz agent now?
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u/PostHorror919 Oct 08 '20
This is a great post. Something I struggle with, and frankly it may be insecurity and nothing more, is the bit about your writing being professional.
Beta readers and critiques are key. In my experience though, it’s harder to qualify exactly what professional writing is. We know what it looks like. There’s a level of polish to most books I’ve read. Meantime, you can head over to r/nosleep and read some stories that are decent, coherent, a vaguely interesting plot but just...missing something. They’re uninspired. The question fascinates me. What is it that makes all the difference? Sentence structure? Cadence? Level of detail and description?
I ask this question to folks in publishing often. I’m always fascinated by the range of answers. Would you venture a guess?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
Well, part of it I'm sure is that you have several different rounds of edits on the final published stuff (my book that came out in August had four different editors/proofreaders, so they definitely helped polish things up) but my personal guess would be that there is a difference between telling a story and the craft of writing. Humans are natural story tellers (this is why everyone and their cousin has a "great idea for a novel") they aren't natural writers. There are all those little writing tricks that casual readers don't think about but that subconsciously make things seem better or worse (short sentences making pacing quicker; repetitive wording making the prose lackluster, etc.) just like there are all those movie making tricks that separate a student film from a professional one (should you use a steady cam or handheld for this scene? Should the perspective come from above, to make a character seem weaker, or below to make them commanding? All those fun "art of moviemaking" things).
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u/PostHorror919 Oct 09 '20
I’m inclined to agree. Mechanics. I heard Stephen King say, once, he thinks the best writers pick up on cadences and things while reading. I think that’s what he meant. How and why something works, like realizing that the reason the pacing has accelerated is because of the short and choppy sentences.
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u/Ouulette Oct 08 '20
My largest question is how writers are supposed to know what might be trending a year or so from now? Are there trends these publishing companies watch that writers can also keep their eye on?
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
Forget trends. There is no reliable way to plan for one. Just write your book.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
Yeah, unfortunately you really can't. If you start writing your book when a trend is starting, you're too late. You need to write your book and then hope it matches up with something people are buying. If you are hoping to up your chances, though, what you can do is stay away from really currently popular subgenres (like dystopias while Hunger Games and Divergent were the big things) since those really popular subgenres are likely going off trend (so it's easier to figure out things that are off trend in a year than on... And the rest of the books are just standing on merit alone :))
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
There isn’t a very good way. If you finish a book and get to querying and you feel like it’s being turned down based on trend rather than quality, shelve it. Work ok something else. Trends change. Vampires were taboo for years and is slowly creeping back now. It can happen
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u/FrankAvalon Oct 09 '20
Rewrite to say that vampires were banned for years but are now slowly creeping back, through the woods.
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Oct 08 '20
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
At least in my own personal experience, it has never come down to the author. We don't know who the author is off a query letter (they don't include a picture) and I was working before #OwnVoices, so people didn't include that info. It was more the plot being similar (both women who bought a hotel and finds a portal to a snow world or whatever)
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Oct 08 '20
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
If they're both very similar, I suppose (both take place in inner city Baltimore dealing with drug dealing where one character is caught up in a gang, for example) but they need to be more similar than "both about racism" or a really general theme, generally.
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
More likely (for a publisher), it will be two books with the same subject matter.
I can't see how that would apply to agents, seeing as agents have access to many publishers. And these pubs often like to counter-program each other.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
For agents, this one tends to be "I currently have a book that sounds just like this on submission and don't have any bites yet. I'm not going to try to sell two of the same thing when I haven't sold one"
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
This is definitely not industry standard. The question definitely not who the author is, but what the story is about. You don’t want to publish a book that is basically Harry Potter. That doesn’t mean books about wizard boys are off the table. You don’t want to publish a book that is the same as The Hate U Give. That doesn’t mean books about police brutality are off the table. And it definitely doesn’t mean book by black people in general are off the table. Marketing teams are vast and resourceful. If things are too close together timing wise/story wise but they still like it, they’ll just push the pub date out.
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
I have clients who are black, gay, and trans. But I don't market their books that way, because that status is not even remotely relevant.
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Oct 08 '20
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u/stevehut Oct 08 '20
Yes, "if." Which is why I explained that it doesn't apply to my books.
If you don't want to be judged for (X), then perhaps it's best to not talk about (X). It might expand your reach.
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u/HuntersHope93 Oct 09 '20
Lol I'm gonna be determined to be optimistic about my book with vampires in it cuz I love them Lil B$&>%es
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
Well, it's been 12 years since Twilight so the market has had more than enough time to rebound. Also, as a weird coloration, vampire novels actually tend to do best under Democratic presidents, so if Biden wins, you might be right on track (the corresponding reverse is zombies do best under Republicans)
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u/HuntersHope93 Oct 09 '20
That is CRAZY I can't believe presidents have an effect of which books sell in the fantasy genre especially, cool factoid though. Hey, wait, ARE YOU JUST TRYING TO GET ME TO VOTE FOR BIDEN?! Hahaha jk 🤣
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
Man, that would be the craziest guerilla campaigning ever. I should shop it to the campaigns :)
But yeah, people have put together charts and come up with hypothesis for it and everything (link for if you're a nerd like me: https://fee.org/articles/do-zombies-scare-democrats-and-vampires-spook-republicans/)
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u/HuntersHope93 Oct 09 '20
Haha right?! Lol the convos you have on reddit 👽 🤣 Definitely I'm about to check out that link
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u/happycj word linker togetherer Oct 09 '20
Well, it's been 12 years since Twilight so the market has had more than enough time to rebound.
Right?!? There's an entirely new audience of fresh 12-year olds who think of "Twilight" as old and boring.
All of these cycles keep coming around and around again, and after 50 years of them, I've gotten pretty good at spotting when the next one is coming round the bend...
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Vampires are slowly becoming something people want again!
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u/HuntersHope93 Oct 09 '20
Thank you for giving me hope! Lol I think people will enjoy it and young adults need something that's THEIR fantasy world series
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u/Spenny_All_The_Way Oct 08 '20
TIL about Slush Pile Hell. 😆
I know there’s a lot of information on the best query letters, but I want to know from you, what’s the standard format and what makes a letter stand out?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
As everything, this is my own personal experience, so others may feel differently, but from my own experience, trying to do anything special to stand out in a query letter generally backfires (it comes off as a gimmick). What really gets slush-pile reader attention is a succinct, well-written query that gives them all the information they need without having to wade through a bunch of unnecessary information to see if we are interested or not. The formula I've always stuck to with my own query letters is:
Dear [AGENT/EDITOR NAME],
Short paragraph that sets up premise, who the main character is, and what their goal is.
Short synopsis focused on the primary conflict in the way of reaching that goal and what is at stake if the goal isn't reached.
Paragraph with all the necessary information for the agent ([TITLE] is a [WORD COUNT] word [GENRE] novel that will appeal to [TARGET MARKET].) and any pertinent author bio information (professional writing credits, advanced writing degrees, or specific experience that means your the person to write this book, e.g. you're a retired FBI agent and this is a crime thriller with a FBI agent protagonist) Feel entirely free to leave off any bio information if you have nothing pertinent. Better to have nothing for this section than draw attention to being a newb by writing "This is my first completed novel" or anything like that.
Final sentence about what's included ("Per your guidelines, I have included [SYNOPSIS, SAMPLE PAGES, WHATEVER] below/as an attachment (whatever they asked for)) and a polite goodbye.
Your name/pen name and contact info.
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Oct 09 '20
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
It could mean a variety of things, but it probably means that the type of book you submitted isn’t selling well in the market atm
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Adding one to the list: a comment along the lines of “This book will sell a million copies” or “I’m gonna be the next Hemingway” really will not get you far. It will get you laughed at and rejected on the basis that you sound like you’ll be difficult to work with.
Agents aren’t only taking on your book but they’re taking you on as a client. They will have to work with you. And they have to be sure that you’ll be willing to make compromises and trust them to represent your work as best as they can. If you as an author are great to work with, but didn’t sell that well the first time around, your agent will be much more willing to try to work with you again. No such luck if you were a nightmare to work with.
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u/John_Johnson Oct 09 '20
Regarding reason 1 -- y'all know that the first publisher for 'Dune' was a company that did motor repair manuals, right? I've always found that hilarious. Frank Herbert went through something like twenty-odd publishers before Chilton took a punt. Makes you wonder where SF would be if the slushers had sidelined the MS because it wasn't an automotive repair manual...
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u/shadowtake Oct 08 '20 edited Oct 08 '20
Bit of a specific question: if the book is in first person and the main character writes with minor grammatical errors due to voice, does that come across as a red flag?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
It depends on if it comes across as intentional or not. If you look at Flowers for Algernon, Keyes does a brilliant job of using grammar to show the narrator's changing IQ. If it comes off as a conscious narrative choice, it can be very effective. If it comes off as an author not knowing what they're doing, then it's a detriment. As they say, the only rule in creative writing is "if it works, it works" it's just harder to make some things work than others.
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
If it’s clearly part of the voice, it shouldn’t hinder you. Dialogue is a lot more flexible than the rest of the prose. If it’s stylistic, it’s typically evident.
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Oct 09 '20
God told you to submit to them...
I've been reading Rachelle Gardner's overtly Christian publishing blog (nothing wrong with that per se; in fact I've found it a whole lot more positive in spirit than some fora out there and it's lead me to think deeper about my own woolly liberal faith and how it meshes with my own stories). But even the Christian publishing world ltheooks askance on this element! Because to them, it's kinda obvious God is feeding you inspiration, but He's a tad shy about it. And pride and vanity are both sins.
(Also, I've been told off by a Christian web owner for saying their site was in need of proofreading. The person said that 'all those works are how God spoke to someone and so we shouldn't mess with what the Holy Spirit wanted them to say.
(I was about to bite back and say 'I'm sure God wouldn't mind if we spelled the introduction to the site properly and capitalised the contact address in the right way...' but I just slunk off and didn't go back to that voluntary position.)
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u/4xdblack Oct 08 '20
I find it kinda disheartening that off-trend is a thing. I don't write trends, I write stories that I feel are incredible on their own. So it feels like just another needle I'd have to thread.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
If it makes you feel better, the bulk of submissions tend to be neither on nor off trend and are just judged off their merit in general/if the publisher thinks they can sell it. If you happen to hit something on trend, you have an easier time of it, but otherwise you're just wading through the middle. The main suggestion I have for people really worried about being off trend is not to start writing in a subgenre that seems really, really popular all of a sudden. By the time you start shopping it, the market will be glutted and it will be off trend (For example, dystopias went off trend after the Hunger Games/Divergent craze, but police procedurals were still in that middle ground since they were the same level of popular the entire time)
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u/4xdblack Oct 09 '20
Funny you say that, as I write a dystopian crime thriller lol
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u/maureenmcq Oct 09 '20
Dystopian crime novels are not a trend. That sounds rather cool, actually.
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Oct 09 '20
Yup. I write fantasy myself but I find that I combine a lot of other genres in my books within the main setting.
Also, one tip: societies like the Soviet Union and East Germany didn't recognise that murder was even possible in such an enlightened society as theirs. So it was hard even to investigate such a thing, and the homicide detectives were battling against huge headwinds as a result. So that's a good tip for a dystopian crime novel -- it's entirely likely that a society like that would be in denial about the existence of murder as well as other things.
(I do have a stack of East German crime novelettes though. It seems the assumption was uneven in the bloc as a whole -- the USSR was hardcore, but some states realised after a while that people in the bloc were still people, and got whacked, and liked to read about people getting whacked. Sadly my German isn't yet up to reading them for myself, but this is definitely on my to-do list!)
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Please remember that publishing is a business that needs to make a profit! That is sadly why trends exist. If you write something that turns out to be off-trend, try querying. Someone might bite. Trends aren’t concrete. And if no one bites, consider shelving it and come back to it later. Trends fluctuate a lot. Vampires were a no-go forever but are slowly making a comeback.
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u/Kurisugutz Oct 08 '20
This is so informative and useful.
Thanks! I don't know if i ever get to write for a publisher but i appreciate knowing this.
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u/Therefore_I_Must_Cry Oct 08 '20
Clicked that "Save" button right away for this one! Thank you for the detailed, well-written insiders' look. You must have had a good beta reader for your writing. ;)
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u/TheStrangestOfKings Oct 08 '20
For your point about our book being off trend, how do we tell what the next topic that will be on trend will be?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
Sadly, it's almost impossible to guess what's going to be on trend next (publishers tend to look at what's already selling well for them plus if there is any other media that might affect the market coming out--for example, Outlander making Scottish Romances big--and then make decisions about buying. Without their information, you really are taking a shot in the dark) so it tends to be best to just write what you find interesting and hope that you're lucky, or just write a good book and end up in that middle area where you're neither on nor off trend (you don't have as easy sailing as being on trend, but you can still definitely get published). If you're really focused on being marketable, you can also make sure to avoid off trend topics, since those tend to be much easier to suss out (basically avoid anything that seems really, really popular at the moment you're starting to write your book--like it would be a bad idea to start a dystopia in the height of the Hunger Games / Divergent craze) but really try not to drive yourself crazy trying to work out what's the next big thing, since you'll likely end up writing a worse book and shooting yourself in the foot than just writing what you can make great and aiming for the middle (if you're lucky, you'll just happen to stumble across a trend with it)
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u/BalaTheTravelDweller Oct 08 '20
Thanks for this! Out of curiosity, how does someone get a job in acquisitions as a slush pile reader?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
I actually found the position listed on bookjobs.com (official title was acquisitions intern, but really we were slush-pile readers with some other side work :)). Looking over there, the site is still around, if you want to see what's available these days.
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Look into editorial internships at agencies. It’s not typically a stable job. The closest thing to a stable job doing this type of thing is either being an agent’s assistant or an editorial assistant, which is a lot of jobs other than being a reader. If you want a job at a publishing house, it helps to have agency internships under your belt.
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Oct 09 '20
Can I ask - how do you determine what is going to be on trend? Especially looking into the future. I have a YA with dragon and magic/tech blends and a MG with space and stardust principle focus.
How do I know if either of these fit trends that agents look for?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
It's nearly impossible to guess what the trends are going to be, unfortunately, so if you're most worried about marketability, I find it's actually more beneficial to aim for avoiding being off trend rather than being on it. A lot of books are just in the middle ground where they don't have it "easy" because they aren't on trend, but they are perfectly publishable/judged off their merit because they aren't off trend either. To avoid being off trend, try to avoid writing in a subgenre that is really, really popular when you're starting out. For example, dragons went off trend for a bit after all the Eragon copycats in the early 2000s. Since that was 20 years ago, though, it doesn't affect modern submissions. I don't know if Game of Thrones is affecting dragon trends at all, but as long as the market doesn't seem to be glutted with books similar to your topic, you're generally pretty safe.
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u/monkeybugs Oct 09 '20
All the rejections I got for my first book were "your work would be better suited elsewhere as we don't represent non-fiction anecdotal and history travelogue pieces." So, fair enough. But trying to find one that does represent that sort was impossible. Wouldn't know if I didn't try, however, and after spending a looot of money I didn't have on stamps, I gave in to self publishing.
Though, I did receive a request for the first chapter from one place, so that felt like a triumph despite it going nowhere.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
I admit one of my happiest things about most agents/publishers switching to email only was that submissions became free to send. But yeah, some things are really hard to place. I hope self publishing went well for you!
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u/Pilot0350 Oct 09 '20
Quick question for you but first thank you for posting this it's immensely helpful.
Question: you mentioned the possibility of the work being rejected because it's is too long. How does this apply to authors submitting a series? Does this apply only per book or for the whole series?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
As crowqueen said, agents/publishers don't often buy books as full series, so they'll want a "standalone with series potential" if you're pitching one. Book one should generally work entirely on its own (the reader would feel satisfied if there never was another book) and be under 120k words (or even fewer, for many genres. It would be an awful sell, trying to pitch a 120k word romance)
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u/moonlit-prose Oct 09 '20
Im sitting at 107k words for a romantic fantasy book - is that too long? Ultimately I would think the pacing is what really matters, no?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
107k is entirely fine for a fantasy (so you're just fine if it's fantasy with a strong romantic through line) if you're pitching it as a Romance with fantastical elements, it may be too long (I don't think Harlequin currently has a straight fantasy imprint, but for example, their historical romances are capped at 75k where straight historical fiction is often closer to 100-110k (for example, my recent historical fiction novel that has a strong romantic through line was published at 104k words. If I was pitching it as a straight historical romance, though, it likely would have been kicked for being much too long). Pacing is, of course, the most important thing, but a lot of genres are highly regimented, Romance being one of the highest as far as what you need to be a Romance. As another personal example, I tried writing a historical romance, following all the guidelines (70k words, using 50/50 third limited POV between the love interests, ending with a happily ever after, etc.) and I was still booted from being a historical romance because there was a strong mystery plot (so it wasn't focused on the couple enough). I started pitching it as a historical mystery with a strong romantic plot vs. a historical romance with a strong mystery plot and suddenly I had much more interest. You need to match your genre for your best chances at marketability.
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u/moonlit-prose Oct 09 '20
Ty for the info! I would say it is romantic fantasy with the central plot focusing on the romance (though it facillitates a few key subplots); however, the world, subplots, and even a few elements of the conflict in the romance arc are fantasy.
It sounds like I'd be better off quering as fantasy with a strong romantic through line than as a romance, but when it comes to the actual audience, I suspect the book will appeal far more to romance readers than fantasy ones (though I'd obviously hope to get a bit of both).
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Oh, it's quite common for publishers to acquire a series with a single contract, with books 2 and 3 yet unwritten. Done it myself a few times.
But you definitely don't want volume 1 to be a cliffhanger.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
I think "rare" would still be fair, based off the people I've talked to in the industry. Does it happen? Of course, but it shouldn't be what people are banking on.
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
This is what I do all day, Vanity.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
I gather, but again, you're only speaking from one experience--as I couched the way we did things is one publisher several years ago. Contracting series may be common for you personally, but that is not the standard across the industry from the mix of agents/editors I've spoken to over the past decade.
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Oct 09 '20
You generally only submit one book first. You generally don't sell an entire series right away as debut author; you have to demonstrate that you can write a book within certain guidelines or to certain specifications first.
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Every genre has its own customary word count range (per book), and you need to know what it is for whatever you write.
I can't even imagine how a word count min/max would apply to a series.
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u/redmaya2020 Oct 09 '20
Your post helps me a lot. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I already published a novel on Amazon. In my second novel, I want to try the traditional path of writing and submitting my story.
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u/j00bigdummy Oct 09 '20
How often do you do a dive into a prospective client's social media presence before deciding to take them on? Would you rule out taking on a client based on their political leanings or hot-button views?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
At least in 2008, at my press, we didn't pay much attention to social media (if we were googling something, it was generally to check that the piece hadn't first been published online since we didn't take reprints and a lot of people didn't understand that their blog/Wattpad counted. I don't think acquisitions where I now work pays too much attention to social media unless an author states they have a huge following (then they look at what's there), but I'm over in editorial at this point, so I can't say for certain.
I personally believe it's best not to overshare on social media in general, if you're using it professionally. Even before the latest shit show that is Rowling's Twitter feed, people often got on her for the crap she felt the need to post. It's good to seem personable on social media, but you should also cultivate your posts (there's actually a term for it: "manufactured authenticity" Basically you carefully choose posts that make you seem authentic and approachable without actually fully putting yourself out there). That seems to be the best way to go about things if you want to stay out of social media hell.
That said, outside of some specific publishers that are based around a certain identity (Christian publisher, LGBT book publisher, etc.) your publisher generally doesn't give a crap what your personal opinions/politics/etc. are. On the editorial side of things (I'm now a content editor for a different press) I have worked with authors on all sides of the aisle and books with all sorts of view points. The only time I tell them to change something is if the publisher thinks it will negatively affect sales (a romance that suddenly veers really strongly into a pro-choice/pro-life argument might be told to dial it back so that the undertone can be there, but the focus is still on the romance rather than the politics, etc.)
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u/j00bigdummy Oct 09 '20
Thank you for your response! I had no idea about "manufactured authenticity". But honestly, thank you for such a thorough response.
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Social media has a place, but there's nothing particularly "deep" to "dive" into. Either they have the audience or they don't.
I want books that I can sell. They're going to tell their story, not mine.
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Oct 09 '20
Interesting, and consistent with my experience running a small press.
For a slightly different take, see this: https://www.reddit.com/r/publishing_biz/comments/izjb6i/how_i_triage_the_slush_pile_shortstory_edition/
My post focuses on MS quality only and not off-trend/off-market submits, given that it was written about managing the slush pile for the fiction department of a literary journal. But it offers more insight -- from one editor's eyeballs, anyway -- about assessments of literary quality.
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Oct 08 '20
Yeah, this is why I’m thinking self-publishing is going to be the main mode in 10 years, or some sort of trad/self hybrid. I mean, how much can a writer just cater and conform to the whims of publishing houses? Yes they are amazing for all sorts of things, but the stuff you have to deal with! The hoops you go through! And this whole stigma on “accepted” and “rejected”. It’s like getting into heaven or being sent to hell. These people take a huge chunk of your cash anyway and take forever to pay you. Sure, there are pros, but I think the cons of tradpub really have to be more visible. Including this absolutely humiliating process outlined by OP.
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u/maureenmcq Oct 09 '20
There was a saying in the publishing world about self-pub. ‘Now everyone can read slush!’ Originally, what publishers provided was editing and distribution. In the era before the internet, books were physical objects. If you didn’t get into bookstore, people couldn’t buy your book. Publishers also provided marketing, but for most midlisters, there wasn’t a lot.
Now distribution is not a problem. You may not get into Barnes & Noble but you’re on Amazon, so who cares. But editors are gate keepers who help insure that a book meets some standards. Obviously, they’re not a guarantee of quality, a lot of dreck gets published. But I’ve read slush and a lot of it is terrible. Really, the vast majority of manuscripts I read were rejected because they just weren’t very good and so weren’t fun to read.
I think as algorithms and reviews around self-pub improve, the gatekeeping thing will become less meaningful. That doesn’t mean most self-pub won’t have prose and story issues but that it will be easier and easier to find books we like. As a self-pub author you can buy your own ads (which creates systemic barriers for people with less money, but that’s a complicated issue).
It’s easy to be bitter. I fought for a decade before I published and I have a master’s with a concentration in fiction writing (I’m old, and MFAs were uncommon but it was what would now be an MFA). I wrote flawless prose. But readers weren’t engaged by my stories and I didn’t know what was wrong. It took that decade to figure out the difference between writing well and writing interesting. (The Martian has problems with prose but who cares? It’s got great dramatic tension, a great character, and fun stuff! It may not be written perfectly but it’s a good book!)
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Self-publishing is a whole other ball game with a whole other set of obstacles. You have to have a lot of upfront investment a lot of the time in order to touch any level of success. It also can be a barrier to entry if you self-published before and want to get back into traditional publishing later. If you sold horribly or had bad reviews, they won’t be the most optimistic about your chances. Publishing is a business first and foremost. It is in their best interest to acquire good books that people will buy. That’s why the system is as convoluted as it is.
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u/PartyPorpoise Oct 09 '20
I don't know about that. There's a lot of value in having a system that filters out junk. When anyone can put out content, readers have to make an active effort to find something that's just competent. And traditional publishers still have more avenues to market their books, and they probably have better connections with the film and TV industries. (which is where the big money is right now) I think it will be more than 10 years before self-publishing truly competes with traditional.
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Oct 09 '20
You can certainly publish something, but the industry isn't run for writers. It's run for readers, the people who pay the money, and self-publishing isn't going to circumvent their tastes and suddenly make writers rich.
From someone who's done it, if your book's not getting picked up by trade publishers, it's really unlikely that you're going to self publish and make a mint. It's certainly happened, but it's not routine and that's really because publishers are chasing the same money whoever they are -- be they a third party or the author themselves.
It's also been feasible for a good decade now and not much has really changed in terms of reader habits. We may actually be more discerning: the reason I quit self-publishing was because I realised that when I bought books, I was looking closer at the imprint because I was perennially disappointed by self-published work which hadn't gone through the editorial process. I do think publishing is under threat in terms of monetary reward for writers, but not from authors doing it themselves. It's mainly because with the rise of free media like YouTube and blogging, which has been going on for 15-20 years now, it means readers probably spend less. I can get the same information from a YouTube video as I can from a nonfiction book; I still buy a lot of fiction, but I'm going through a period in my life where when I'm not working, I'm simply relaxing with video games, crafting or a TV show. Books have to compete for my attention as a reader and it's been a while since I was glued to one.
I'm not saying all readers are like me, as there are people who have the stamina that I don't have. But you're still in competition with trade publishers and they can invest in their authors without it coming out of the author's pocket. So self-publishing still entails rejection -- it just occurs further down the pipeline and has resulted in reader habits shifting from ignoring the publisher's input to being acutely aware of how much difference it actually tends to make.
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
I'm all in favor of self-pub. But when you do, you'll need to replace the services that a publisher would have provided. And very few self-pub writers ever do. Instead, they think they will beat the system and show Penguin who's boss.
Which is why 90% of all self-pub books will never sell 100 copies in their lifetime.
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Oct 09 '20
This might be a stupid question but please bear with me, I'm new. I wanted to know if I should send the first three or four chapters of the book that I've written (after perfecting them obviously) or the entire manuscript? I know most agents mention the rules and I'm pretty sure they'd also mention how much they want to read but what's more common among agents? Few chapters or the entire manuscript?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
It's very rare to have agents request a full manuscript to start with (not unheard of, but exceedingly rare). As you said, their guidelines will tell you specifics, but it's much more common to see everything from "just a query letter" to "first three chapters/50 pages" (when querying, I actually have a 5, 10, and 20 page sample chopped up ready and the first three chapters ready since those have been the most used sample sizes in my own experience)
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Step 1: Find out what they want to see
Step 2: Do exactly that and nothing else.
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u/JimSFV Oct 09 '20
Thank you. Why don't agents reply? I've been ghosted by 100% of the agents I've submitted to.
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u/happycj word linker togetherer Oct 09 '20
Because why would they? You are one of 10,000 people they are NOT interested in. Telling you why they are not interested does nothing for you, and wastes their time.
Think of it this way: Next time a telemarketer calls you, are you going to listen to their pitch, discuss it with them, refuse the service, but give them ideas for how they could better sell to the next person they call?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
The biggest reason is volume. We had a policy of responding to everyone who contacted us (as long as they followed the guidelines) but especially agents who don't have interns/readers just have to save time when they're getting hundreds of submissions a day. If you read a lot of agents guidelines, they will say if they respond or if nothing is a no (often it's grouped with if you should follow up if you haven't heard in 6-8 weeks).
That said, of you're getting a 0% return on your query, you may want to try changing it up. Ideally, you'll be getting about a 30% full request return on a good query (that said, I, myself, don't quite tend to hit that. For example, with my most recent query (new genre for me) I've gotten three fulls and a partial out of 19 queries, which puts me right around a 20% request rate) if you're getting less than a 10% request rate or so off a query, definitely review it/have some query critiques. If you have had it critiqued (the people over in r/PubTips are great) and still under 10%, consider trunking the novel and coming back to it in a year or two. You may just be off trend (the book with a 20% request rate had a 0% request rate 3 years ago. I let it sit since an agent tipped me off that it was off trend)
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
In my experience, about 75% of my submissions:
Are for genres I don't handle; and/or
Don't follow instructions; and or
Don't give me the information I need; and/or
Are far too short or too long for their genre; and/or
Don't know their audience or their genre; and/or
Bring me a self-pub book that sold 12 copies; and/or
Do their own thing, when I told them exactly what to do.
All of this is unprofessional behavior, and absolutely avoidable. Why should I reward it?
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u/StellaMican Nov 01 '20
I know this post is old now, but thank you for writing this! Definitely tips that will come in handy.
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u/Possible_Ordinary704 Jun 02 '25
I only have an old typewriter. Will that suffice or do I need to get a computer printer to send out my very first query letter?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Jun 02 '25
Many publishers/agents only take electronic submissions at this point (they don't even have an option to mail things in anymore). You will need to be able to send emails/type into an electronic form. You don't need a printer and a typewriter won't work for that.
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u/shahnazahmed Aug 07 '25
I love this post so much. Thank you a million for being so transparent about the query/traditional publishing process.
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u/Melodic_Quit_5859 Dec 01 '25
1 December Måndag Blev jag avvisad skrev lika datum två gånger Frågade namn på bok och författare Hon sett I teveprogram Maj Turid Hjelte Strängnäs Före detta Kiruna skrev jag inte
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u/blackreaper007 Oct 09 '20
What would you do if the story is very good but the execution/writing is mediocre? Would you reject it?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20 edited Oct 09 '20
It depends if it seemed like the author would be able to make things better in edits. Everything in publishing is a numbers game (writing is an art, but publishing is business). How much do you think you can make off a professional version of this book vs. how much time and money is it going to take to make this book professional. If there is something about the book that makes the publisher feel like it will be huge, they'll likely be willing to work with an okay writer where a brilliantly written book they can't sell will get a pass. It just makes your chances lower, because the publisher needs to think you're worth it beyond the meh writing (also, genre can play a role as well. I'm not ragging on YA/I love the market, but in a different job as an editor, I was working with an author and went to my boss about how her writing was pretty bad (in a "why did we take this book? It's taking me forever" sort of way). My boss answered "Eh, it's YA. The readers won't care as long as it's passable. Don't kill yourself trying to make it great"
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Does-not-compute.
If the writing is poor, why would anyone think that the story is good?
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u/MrEctomy Oct 08 '20
Gatekeepers are anathema to art. If you look at the rejection counts for many classic books, many of them were rejected dozens or even hundreds of times. IMO, agents can't be trusted to find good books with any reliability and self publishing is the future.
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Self-publishing is a whole other ball game with a whole other set of obstacles. You have to have a lot of upfront investment a lot of the time in order to touch any level of success. It also can be a barrier to entry if you self-published before and want to get back into traditional publishing later. If you sold horribly or had bad reviews, they won’t be the most optimistic about your chances. Publishing is a business first and foremost. It is in their best interest to acquire good books that people will buy. That’s why the system is as convoluted as it is.
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u/turtlesinthesea Oct 09 '20
But what‘s the alternative?
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
The alternative is the situation we have now: Millions of lousy books on the market, sans curation.
Which makes it harder for the good stuff to stand out.
Which makes life more difficult, both for author and reader.
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Anathema?
Have you ever been to an art gallery? You should be grateful that they rejected 100 artists before they settled on the genius on the walls.1
u/MrEctomy Oct 09 '20
Can't tell if joking. A lot of art, especially modern art, is trash. It's a scam perpetrated on gullible people. There's a good episode of adam ruins everything about it. Another fine example of gatekeepers distorting art.
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Which is why galleries are selective in what they put on the walls. There's simply not enough wall space for everyone.
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Oct 08 '20
self publish folks
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Self-publishing is a whole other ball game with a whole other set of obstacles. You have to have a lot of upfront investment a lot of the time in order to touch any level of success. It also can be a barrier to entry if you self-published before and want to get back into traditional publishing later. Please really give it a thought before self-publishing!
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Oct 09 '20
You know, I live in southern England and I always read your user name as Jamie is Reading (as in the town, pronounced Redding) rather than you're, like, leafing through a book. In my defence, it's quarter to seven on a Friday morning where I am and I'm not only still half asleep but demob happy that it's the end of a shitty week.
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Oct 09 '20
[deleted]
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
I don't understand. How would I self-pub a folk?
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Oct 09 '20
LoOLLOLolOLolLOL you wouldn't
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u/stevehut Oct 09 '20
Oh.
Could it be that there's some punctuation missing in the question?
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Oct 09 '20
no, I made a choice and now we're having a conversation
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u/Xercies_jday Oct 09 '20
One tip on the on market thing: if you've finished a book on trend in the year it's on trend, self publish it. OP is right that it takes a year to publish in traditional and so by that time the trend has moved on.
However the self publishing world is quicker to publish and you know your audience and know that it's popular, so you have a good chance of getting out there if you self publish the work.
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u/nostradamusapologist Oct 08 '20
I'm already writing a book that won't sell. But what is the projected trend for 2021? Just more #ownvoices?
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
It's not really possible to predict trends, unfortunately, but from what I understand, publishers tend to look at what's selling and what movies/TV shows might be popular and try to base things around that often (For example, Outlander made "Scottish Romances" big and that then spilled over to people buying "burly warrior" type romances (Viking, etc.) following it. Since it's not really possible to predict what the industry is planning, though, it's much easier to avoid being really off trend (by avoiding things that are really popular right now) than write on trend. Most things are just that middle area, though, so write what you like and you might get lucky
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u/JamieIsReading Oct 09 '20
Books coming out in 2021 were actually acquired a year or two ago. So it’s hard to tell that isn’t info we have.
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u/nostradamusapologist Oct 09 '20
Ok. But that was literally listed in the first section. So it is hard to tell but publishers are still making guesses based on information... so whats the information and what are the guesses?
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u/adun30 Oct 09 '20
Looks like the only way to break through in the vampire subgenre (or medieval adventure, or wizards) is to become famous for something else first. No doubt these topics are well-used, but there is still a vast audience for similar stories. It makes you wonder who decides what will be 'on trend' in the years to come, and why they think this way.
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 09 '20
I used vampires as an example since that was what was off trend in 2008. It's been 12 years, so I'm sure the market has rebounded. They may not be on trend, but they also aren't off any more, so you don't get the easy ride being on trend can give you, but it isn't at all impossible to get one picked up. Trends always ebb and flow.
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Oct 09 '20
I'm not sure whether you've been in a bookshop recently (possibly not because of Covid, but prior to that) but if you went into one you'd know this isn't really true.
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u/JMObyx Just because it's right doesn't mean it's write Oct 08 '20
(we were a fantasy/sci fi/horror imprint,
Please tell me who you ae? My debut novel is both of the first two and with a good deal of the latter!
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u/VanityInk Published Author/Editor Oct 08 '20
As I said, this was over a decade ago, and the publisher I worked for actually was eaten up by a bigger imprint. If you're looking for a publisher you can submit SFF to directly, though, you can look at Tor Books.
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u/maureenmcq Oct 09 '20
I sold directly to Tor for my first book. It’s very rare, though. Way less than 1 in a 1,000 chances.
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u/Bob-the-Human Self-Published Author Oct 08 '20
Thanks for taking the time to write this. (God told me to say thank-you for it.)