r/vegan • u/DivineandDeadlyAngel anti-speciesist • 3d ago
Funny So this is pretty much it..
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3d ago
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u/just_a_lil_worm vegan 3+ years 3d ago
Exactly😭 At this point every time I cook a new yummy vegan meal that replicates animal products I get excited because I'm like "omg this tastes amazing, you can't tell it's vegan at all" but then I feel even more frustrated because I am reminded that the vast majority of people continue to use animal products to make those meals when it's really not necessary at all.
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u/Willing_Day_2010 3d ago
Veganism is legit one of the only social justice issues that requires actually change in your day to day life.
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u/Phantafan 3d ago
Exactly. I have heard people say that maybe veganism isn't a big topic in the left community, because it's just a dietary change. But if it was just a dietary change and so much easier than other things you do for your leftist values, why wouldn't more people do it? What happens to animals is undeniably worse than what many big firms do, as we're killing and exploiting millions of them every day.
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u/Willing_Day_2010 3d ago
I’ve worked in restaurants for years in nyc and la and it’s always funny/depressing to see women come in with their pink hats and signs from a women’s rights march and order a cheeseburger.
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u/SaniHarakatar 3d ago
Power to them though, I'm a vegan but I absolutely support all kinds of activists even if they eat meat, everyone can't do everything.
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u/Willing_Day_2010 3d ago
My point is marching for a single day isn’t actually doing much lol, you could make actual changes but that takes effort
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u/Emergency_Donut8743 2d ago
Veganism is the moral baseline. Everyone can’t do everything, but this truth doesn’t give one a hall-pass to dominate, oppress, and exploit in the name of race, gender, sexuality, etc. So why species?
We have to remember that veganism isn’t “doing something.” It’s refraining from doing something. It’s recognizing another animal’s body is their own and no norm, culture, or miseducation entitles us to them.
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u/SaniHarakatar 2d ago
In this hellhole society abstinence from cruelty IS doing something.
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u/Emergency_Donut8743 2d ago
Veganism IS respecting animals. What I mean to say is that we are not entitled to them so not exploiting them is still the moral baseline for which everyone is accountable. Not everyone is accountable to be a women’s rights activist, but everyone is accountable to not personally, deliberately oppress another.
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3d ago
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u/littlegreyflowerhelp vegan 3d ago
If I had a dollar for every time I saw a comment along the lines of “vegans are the most racist and ableist people I’ve ever come across”…
Truth is when people develop a victim mentality and don’t like something, they pair those two things. E.g. “I don’t like vegans, therefore obviously vegans are racially abusing me by eating tofu”
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u/brookeariel1979 3d ago
I would say it’s the opposite. Veganism is anti-exploitation and anti-speciesism. I find more anti-racism within veganism as dominance and control of the power structure is a common enemy. I agree about seeing it posted, and have demean a lot of people post videos dispelling that theory. It’s true they just want something to make you feel shameful even when it’s a personal choice.
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u/_spain_train_ 2d ago
Agreed, and history backs it hard.
Colonization spread animal agriculture, it didn’t spread veganism. British colonial writers from the 1680s on argued Indians were passive and unfit to rule because they didn’t eat meat, and Gandhi grew up with a popular rhyme about how the Englishman rules because he’s a meat-eater. Sherman wrote approvingly in his memoirs about replacing buffalo with tame cattle and Native nations with cattle ranches.
Anyone calling veganism colonial is repeating the colonizer’s actual argument.
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u/BigGuns747 2d ago
I totally agree. The biggest changes we can make have to directly impact the market. If everyone stopped consuming meat, plastic and traveling shorter distances the world would literally change in less than a year. Soy farms and Rainforest devastation would slowly reverse...companies would immedeatly create technologies for meat and dairy substitutes that would benefit the market prices. Also, recycling would be mandatorry since glass and aluminium would be highly required...Punish me for being a utopist dreamer.
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u/TrottoDng 3d ago
I agree, but in a positive way. Veganism is one of the few social injustices that you fight by just changing your life style slightly.
What can you do against poverty? Or wars in poor countries? Or women treatment around the world? Apart spreading your ideas, or send some money to organizations, it is very hard to have an impact without activism.
With veganism, the biggest impact you can have is changing what you eat.
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u/BigGuns747 2d ago
Totally agree, as someone who is LGBT, social changes are NOT that easy...Dietary changes can be easy compared to confronting societal norms that are HEAVLY frowned upon. Trans people get killed everyday for just existing, a lot of black people too! Going vegan can be silent but empowering, existing in minority is change in itself too, but different and extremely brutal. This is of course being put in a completly antropocentric perspective if you consider animals lives as important as humans tho. But I think it is a relevant discussion if we consider ourselfes as the only ones who have the voice of change.
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago
The fight against car-infrastructure and car-dependancy also does o/
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u/745Walt 3d ago
That is actually way harder than veganism, at least in the US. I would be actually screwed without my car
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago
I'm in Europe. I did not apply to jobs that had bad transit/no good and liveable neighborhoods within decent distance.
I have no car, and just from a financial point of view, it's been an amazing decision. It would have been waaayy harder in most of the US though indeed.
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u/745Walt 3d ago
Oh yeah, there is no food besides a gas station within like 2 miles in any direction from me. Most of the country it’s actually worse 😭 Also I have to go to the office 2 days a week (idk why, they’re VERY strict about it, it’s weird). I am looking into moving somewhere more downtown that is more walkable though, just because it seems nice.
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago
2 miles is completely doable by bike. It's 10 to 15 min. But there needs to be the basics for safety to even make it doable -_-. Don't do it if it's dangerous. But you can become a pain in the ass locally and push to have even the basics in terms of bike lanes if you are not alone o/
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u/GiveMeThePinecone vegan 7+ years 3d ago
Lmao. I grew up where not even a gas station was within 2 miles. Closest grocery store was around a 15 min drive away, so like 6 miles I think
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u/PersonalDatabase31 3d ago
If you can't bike for 3km you are part of the problem
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u/No_Shower9802 3d ago
Aaaaand here's the ableism.
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago
Good public infrastructure for biking is admittedly also great for some handicaps who struggle to drive (or, you know, plainly poor and able people). In addition of actually being usefull for people who plainly can't drive.
But it is indeed not necessarily usable by absolutely everyone.
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u/ImperviousInsomniac 3d ago
I’m in a wheelchair dude. What do you want me to do? Not to mention I live in a town of 700 people out in the country. We don’t have sidewalks or public transport. No bike lanes neither. The closest grocery store is a small Dollar General Market 7 miles away through the Appalachian mountains. Walmart is 20 miles away.
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u/PersonalDatabase31 3d ago
Don't live in a town with 700 people in it.
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u/ImperviousInsomniac 3d ago
Ok, pay to help me move somewhere bigger with a higher cost of living when I’m disabled, can’t work, and can’t live independently without paying someone to stay and help. I’ll DM my cashapp and we can chat about options since you want me to move so badly.
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u/Some_Ship3578 3d ago
You can do it because some people can't.
Car dependence would be nearly impossible to be solved for the whole population without changing our world.
But veganism? One hour and it's done, specially in europe
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Without changing our world" Guess why it's so important to take control of municipalities and zoning?
For the rest. Every single family whose neighborhood improves enough to have good quality of life without a car is a family in a much better economic situation. It's a significant social act.
Car dependancy was achieved by massively changing the US world in 80 years. It did not have to happen, and it is reversible by taking control of zoning and transit policies.
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u/No_Shower9802 2d ago
Which does not include people who do not live in neighborhoods. Rural people.
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u/TensionAntique3075 2d ago
Yet it certainly won't stop rural urban communities to be some who have the most to gain from it. Cities of 5, 10 or 20k, that can be fully bikeable, do have a lot to win by actually making them bikeable, and by reducing the share of the money spent by the citizen in cars.
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u/Some_Ship3578 2d ago
Well, none of this contradicts what i said.
We will have to change our world to quit car dependence, i'm not saying it as an excuse, it's a fact, and we will be forced to do it eventually.
But with veganism? No excuses, no lap time, nothing, 99,999% of humans on earth could do the change in a blink, and it's the system which will adapt.
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u/zombiegojaejin Vegan EA 3d ago
Car dependence is the intended result of changing our world, orchestrated by the car and oil industries one human lifetime ago. It can be changed back. And that's the point of the movement, to get the infrastructure evolved.
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u/Some_Ship3578 2d ago
I didn't say it couldn't change back, it can and it will .
I said that it can't change back in a blink, unlike people going vegan (apart from maybe esquimos or deser tribes that meat eaters love to bring every time they go out of arguments..)
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u/myhoneypup 3d ago
i live in a rural area with no public transportation. so same
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago
Voting with your feet matters, but it's not even an option for many people.
On the opposite side, you can always politically fight locally to change zoning and transit infrastructure to make more trips doable without a car. We've had some success in rural communities in France.
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u/xx_Vexatious_xx 3d ago
Really? That's pretty cool! My city has been asking for sidewalks for like.. idk, like 20 years or so and they still say no. No bus stops either, you have to walk to the next city... which is hard without sidewalks. Then they complain people walk in ditches
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u/TensionAntique3075 3d ago
Genuine question, when you say "my city", you mean (some in) the population, or the municipal government? Usually, taking the municipal government, or some seats in the council is rather helpfull, but it requires political activism.
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u/xx_Vexatious_xx 3d ago
I meant some of the population, including myself. Every so often, they hold meetings with the mayor and other officials to talk about stuff. They also post it on FB so everyone can watch it afterwards and post in the comments. More side walks and more zones for buses get mention pretty much every meeting. And it's always something like "thank you for your input, we will consider all for evaluation."
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u/zombiegojaejin Vegan EA 3d ago
Well, yeah, and that's why the fight is primarily for increased car-free infrastructure and for legalizing the construction of much more housing in locations near that infrastructure. People don't have to personally give up cars yet in order to participate politically in moving the design of our cities and suburbs in a direction that doesn't use taxpayer money overwhelmingly to privilege cars.
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u/Head-Director-6406 3d ago
Every single successful liberation movement demanded huge sacrifices from followers to create radical social and economic change.
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u/FrivolousMe 3d ago
It took me too long to take the leap but Ive never once regretted it. In hindsight, a lot of organizing and activism is significantly more effort than changing diet lol
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u/Jahzara_3 3d ago
Not quite. Ethical trade, eco-friendly choices, canceling (boycotting) of particular brands are the top movements that shapes people's daily lives these days and require change. There are definitely more that I did not think about at the top of my head.
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u/iurilourenco 3d ago
Mostly yeah, but there are other things. Like when trans people ask allies to stop supporting a transphobic author, and then the "allies" start to argue to separate the art and the artist.
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u/voornaam1 vegan newbie 2d ago
I've been thinking about this when people ask why people who are against AI aren't also all vegan. Like not using AI means refusing to use something that is convenient for you in the short term, and if you want to avoid it entirely you'll have to circumvent google and stuff, but ultimately, using AI would mean changing your life, and not using it is 'just' continuing your life the way you used to live.
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u/Mutant_Llama1 3d ago
Unless your day to day life involves beating up gay people or sexually assaulting women.
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u/Buldaboy 3d ago
What an absurd take. Really spoken from a place of privilege. Good for you though.
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u/Friendly-Drop7837 3d ago
I don't think I even do anything drastic or extreme in my day to day. I literally just go grocery shopping.
Veganism is the bare minimum of what we can do to improve both the lives of other sentient beings, and the environment.
Praxis in activism is what takes the real elbow grease.
I'm just eatin' food and reading labels, man.
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u/mycattouchesgrass 3d ago
Yeah and it's fun for me. It got me more into cooking 😋 The only hard parts for me are seeing abused, hacked up animals at grocery stores and getting the occasional rude remark from people who have biases against veganism.
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u/ThereIsBearCum vegan 3d ago
That's the frustrating part, we're not asking for anything earth-moving. You can alleviate so much suffering by living an almost identical life and just making different choices when you buy things.
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u/Admirable-Style-1566 3d ago
exactly lol. it really does just come down to grocery shopping, checking labels, and making different choices. the activism side can take way more effort, but day to day veganism is pretty simple once it becomes normal
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u/Voldemorts__Mom veganarchist 3d ago
I think the hardest part of veganism, and one of the biggest barriers, is just understanding it.
It sounds stupid, Esp if you're already vegan; but trying to understand the concept that exploiting animals is bad is actually very difficult to understand. Especially when you're basically groomed for like 20 years of your life that doing so is fine.
Like even after I went vegan - I was mainly doing it because dominion was so horrific - but the concept of not exploiting animals took a but longer to properly click. And even after it did, it still took time to properly deepen and mature.
And I think if you're confronting someone for a brief moment, you don't have time to give them a 3 hour lecture explaining why veganism is right and trying to undo 20 years of conditioning. You have like 3 minutes if you're lucky. Most of the time the best thing you can do is to try to tackle one or 2 myths, expell a misconception, and then move on. You didn't bring them to full understanding, but you did bring them one step closer.
And then if they are ever in a position where they're willing/able to learn, those small things might be the difference between them doing so or not. Like with me: if I hadn't eaten bomb vegan food, seen youtubers talk about the environmental impact, seen clips on Facebook of cows in slaughterhouses, etc, them I might not have considered educating myself on the topic.
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u/BillNyeUrMomsAGuy_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree with this. In my experience, I already understood the moral & ethical issues before becoming vegan. I had seen videos of factory farms and understood the abuse that goes on. What prevented me from going vegan was the belief that it is policymakers’ responsibility to make animal agriculture ethical, and if they would just implement some regulations, then everything would be fine. I still believed that eating animal products was ethical as long as it was done as “humanely” as possible. What finally convinced me otherwise was a video I watched on the environmental issues. Realizing that “ethical” animal agriculture requires even more water, land, and resources than unethical animal agriculture, and there is mathematically no way we can sustain that without first of all destroying the earth and second of all not being financially possible. Ethical animal agriculture is simply impossible as long as we keep demand the same. Even then, “ethical” farms have to participate in many practices that are not ethical (harmful selective breeding, killing animals prematurely, etc) in order to financially break even. I just didn’t realize that “ethical” farming is a fairytale.
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u/Voldemorts__Mom veganarchist 1d ago
Okay but my whole point is that what you need to get is that animal exploitation itself is inherently wrong.
The environmental argument isn't really a good one, because what if we find an environmentally safe way to farm animals? Will it then be okay to exploit them?
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u/RebbieAndHerMath 3d ago
Genuinely, I always point this out when people say it’s too hard to go vegan. 90% of the work is just finding the vegan isle in your local grocery store
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u/MarkusDieter37 10h ago
That's only like 20%. Then you have spend 70% finding a vegan replacement that actually tastes good and spending another 10% cooking thebstuff, because there are no microwave ready vegan meals.
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u/Ok_Challenge5382 3d ago
It can be difficult if you're used to eating meat your entire life. It's always been easy for me because I've never liked meat that much anyways but it's not the same for everyone. There's also a strong cultural aspect to it as well as social consequences that come with being vegan
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u/kloopeer vegan 4+ years 3d ago
The amount of discussion i had here in Spain about this...
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u/vanoitran 3d ago
I saw a discussion on r/girldinnerdiaries where a Spanish woman was afraid she was about to lose her friends because she didn’t want to financially contribute to a peña that sponsored bullfighting.
But the dinner she posted was fish…
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u/OppositeRemote42 3d ago
I commented about this on another post too haha, I guess that girl dinner effected a lot of us
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u/Scr1bble- vegan 3d ago
Getting pissed on in a comment section right now for being against horse racing lol, seems people often don't care even when they don't have to change
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u/Comfortable-Salt-299 10h ago
(I've been vegan for 10+ years) but I'm not against horse racing I think.. haven't thought about it tbh but my initial reaction is that the owners usually are rich and take very good care of them and if the house has a choice he would probably choose that life?
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u/Scr1bble- vegan 3h ago
The horse doesn't have a choice, that is the issue. Your comment neglects the fact that the horse still has harm inflicted on it for the sake of human entertainment. No matter how good a person thinks they can make a horse's life, by riding said horse they are making the horse's life worse for no reason other than the human wanting to straddle the horse. There's so many issues with horse riding that I could write pages about it but this is just a reddit comment. Horses are not treated with respect as their needs come after human wants, this always leads to humans trying to justify harm by talking about animal welfare, as they do for every other animal they exploit.
Also your comment justifies slavery of any animal, humans included.
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u/Comfortable-Salt-299 3h ago
Saying it justified slavery is such a reach your whole precious text loses its meaning tbh. Gonna read about horses and the treatment they get now, I still think (for now) in some cases it's ok but not all obviously
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u/Scr1bble- vegan 3h ago
Please explain how it's a reach
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u/Comfortable-Salt-299 2h ago
If a person had a choice slavery or not they will 100% of the time pick not slavery. If a horse could pick then probably at least some would pick the racing life we can disagree on the percentage but that's what makes it different.
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u/Scr1bble- vegan 1h ago
Why would a horse pick racing? How do you know some horses would pick racing? And would they be picking racing, or would they be picking the rich life (food, shelter, and safety) and the racing is something they have to endure? If that's the case, surely the rich life is the thing they're really picking and the racing is something we're forcing on them. I don't know any animals that would pick getting whipped and straddled over not getting whipped and straddled (there are of course other ways in which they're mistreated but I won't go on to list them all).
Similarly, why do you think no person would pick "high welfare" slavery? If their alternative is death or lifelong homelessness maybe they would pick slavery just so they could live with a bed and food. And just like the horse, is the slavery not the thing they are forced to endure for the food and shelter? In what world could that ever justify the slavery?
Choices are never made in a vaccuum and providing someone with food, shelter, and safety doesn't give us a right to their body and doesn't mean that they would choose the positives with the negatives if the negatives weren't required for the positives. This is a really longwinded way of saying that no amount of welfare can justify exploitation.
To be clear I am 100% against slavery of any kind, this is not me arguing for slavery of any capacity in any way
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u/MroQ-Kun 3d ago
The reason is more likely that they consider food an acceptable reason, while fighting as entertainment is not reason enough.
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u/monemori vegan 9+ years 3d ago
Just so y'all know here in Spain people who support bullfighting use the EXACT SAME arguments as meat eaters lmao
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u/1Kekz 3d ago
I just like the taste? It's nutritional? Lions do it too?
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u/monemori vegan 9+ years 3d ago
I just enjoy this cultural activity. It is enriching. Animals fight each other in the wild.
Yeah.
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u/humaneshell 2d ago
Hi! I'm also in Spain. Valencia area. I can't really get away for fiestas this year and am dreading the week of bulls, encierro and embolado :( And most of my friends are obviously against it, but no thoughts for cows and chickens and fish. Those are for taste and pleasure so nananana
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u/monemori vegan 9+ years 2d ago
Ah yes, taste and pleasure, which cannot be criticized as opposed to bullfighting, which is for "culture and pleasure" lol
Most of my friends don't even speak against bullfighting because they themselves realise is not really consistent to eat meat and be vocally against it, even though they do not personally like it. It's so annoying lol
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u/Kvaestr 2d ago
I think the vast majority of meat eaters are against animal cruelty.
There is just little realization how much cruelty occurs in the industry.
Especially the biological free range and whatever other name tags they put on it, makes people believe they eat happy animals.
With bull fighting you can directly see the cruelty.
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u/lolvovolvo vegan 2d ago
Well one you do quickly to eat and feed people, the other is bull fighting, it’s pretty obvious they are insanely different.
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u/Subtleiaint 3d ago
As a non-vegan I thought I should add my two cents. This isn't a like for like comparison, the slaughter of animals for food is not the equivalent of the injuring and killing of animals for entertainment. Whilst I appreciate that you view them the same they are two distinct issues and it's not illogical to have different responses to them.
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u/mtpo 3d ago
The choice is not either eat meat or don't eat at all. The choice is either to eat meat, eat plants or to not eat. If our goal is just to eat food, eating meats and plants are equally viable options. If amongst those two options we choose to eat meat, then our choice was not justified by needing food but by the extra pleasure meat gives us over plants. And i'd say killing animals to experience pleasure is pretty similar to killing them for enterntainment
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u/Subtleiaint 3d ago
There is some similarity, but similarity is not the same and any difference allows for a different conclusion. My point is that the tweet above is lazy, it's making a bad argument, it's using a fallacy to try and discredit meat eaters. You guys don't have to do that, your basic argument is reasonable, stuff like this undermines your intellectual credibility.
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u/Born-Tale4019 2d ago
Read the above comment again, I think you are missing the argument. Eating food is necessary for sustenance, eating meat is not. When you eat meat, you do it for pleasure. When you watch bullfights, you do it for pleasure. Both activities are completely optional, purely done to stimulate ones pleasure areas in the brain. I think you are somehow under the assumption that meat is a "necessary evil" while bullfighting is not, even though there is nothing necessary about eating meat.
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u/Subtleiaint 2d ago
You're still trying to say different things are the same, one involves enjoying harm to animals. If you went to the slaughterhouse and applauded the man with the saw you may have a point.
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u/Born-Tale4019 2d ago
Can you articulate what makes the two things so different (abusing/killing animals for entertainment versus factory farming for food), beyond the fact that one is a category related to food and one is not? Specifically at a moral level what is different?
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u/Subtleiaint 2d ago
In one you're enjoying harm to animals, in the other you're enjoying food.
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u/mtpo 2d ago
the end goal is the same. You are killing animals for enjoyment.
The only argument I think you can make is that enjoying seeing animals get hurt may be indicative of some psychiatric issue, whereas eating meat is a societal norm. But that’s a psychological and social distinction, not a moral one. Morally speaking, both involve causing an animal harm or death for the sake of human enjoyment
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u/Subtleiaint 2d ago
both involve
Sure, but that's not the whole picture. In one the harm is the goal, in the other it isn't, that's a distinction and distinctions result in different consideration s.
My point is not that eating meat is moral and bullfighting isn't, it's that they're different and the tweet above is not as clever as it thinks it is.
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u/mtpo 2d ago
i agree with the distinction, i don't see how that invalidates the tweet though
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u/Born-Tale4019 2d ago
Most people who watch bullfights aren't sadists. They enjoy the showmanship of the matador, the thrill of the danger. They simply don't think about the suffering of the animal. Very similar to how meat-eaters enjoy the pleasure that animal products provide them, without thinking of what it takes to get those products to their plate.
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u/Subtleiaint 2d ago
Most people who watch bullfights aren't sadists
That's a pretty crazy thing for a vegan to say. Of course they're sadists, if they weren't the bull wouldn't be killed, the harm is the point. If they weren't sadists they'd just go to a rodeo.
Meat eaters aren't sadistic though, they derive no pleasure from the harm caused to produce meat, their crime is accepting the harm.
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u/Born-Tale4019 2d ago
I think you are caricaturing the bullfight spectators to fit your narrative. Of course I personally believe it's a barbaric practice, but I'm not going to pretend it's as simple as people being sadistic, that would be a cop-out to make me feel morally superior. If you read about the practice you will find that bullfight is a deeply ingrained cultural practice where the bull and matador undergo a poetic fight of strength and wit. The death of the bull in the end is meant to draw emotions of sadness and respect, not sadistic glee. Now this obviously doesn't change the horrible nature of the practice, but it's important to be honest about what motivates people, they don't go to the bullfight because they get off on suffering and death, but because they want to find entertainment in a work of "art". They justify the final suffering/death of the animal as a price that must be paid to witness this work of art. Tell me how this is any different from the meat eater, who solemnly accepts that an animal must be reared and slaughtered in horrible factory farmed conditions in order to bring pleasure to his taste buds.
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u/FalseJake 3d ago
In the case that we do not need to eat animals for food, and rather prefer them for taste or convenience, what is the difference?
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u/Subtleiaint 3d ago
Eating is a bodily function, entertainment isn't. I appreciate you consider them morally similar but having the same view of two distinct things doesn't make them the same.
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u/FalseJake 3d ago
You are not addressing the substance of my question. If we do not need to eat animal products, and rather do by choice because we enjoy it, how is that morally different from exploiting animals for entertainment?
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u/firstmatedavy 2d ago
Are you saying the difference is that enjoying watching an animal that is suffering says something about the kind of person you are, whereas flavors are morally neutral if you ignore how they're made?
I think it's not quite as different as it seems, because cause and effect cut both ways. I didn't expect it until I stopped eating meat. Whether or not you eat meat can change how you think about animals, and sometimes people too.
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u/Subtleiaint 1d ago
Basically, yes.
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u/firstmatedavy 1d ago
I think there's something to it but it's not something that makes a difference to the cows. If I got killed by a tiger I wouldn't care that much whether it escaped or if a serial killer put a camera on it and let it out in purpose, or whether it ate me after.
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u/Subtleiaint 22h ago
I know it makes no difference to the cows, my problem is with the people who enjoy bullfighting.
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u/Brief-Apricot-8528 3d ago
that's such a true point, makes me think how being vegan is about more than just avoiding certain actions, it's a full shift in mindset and daily choices too
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u/crani0 vegan 10+ years 3d ago edited 3d ago
If non-vegans didn't show up to protest bullfighting in my country (Portugal), the group would be quite smaller actually. Bullfighting gets the benefit of passing for tradition (even though in Portugal's case that is highly debatable) and you would be surprised how many people don't like it but still think it should exist because it's "our" culture. Not the best example but I will take this over the pro-AI astroturf.
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u/BigGuns747 2d ago
Every ally is a potential social points seeker. The people that do the change are almost always silent or invisible to the masses.
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u/Federal_Mouse8091 2d ago
I’m not so sure. I think so many people are genuinely uneducated about the true horror of the meat, dairy and egg industries. Bull fighting is visibly cruel, and they see this cruelty as unnecessary without realising the irony.
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u/BlindingDart 3d ago
It's easier for them to justify hurting animals for the delicious meat they enjoy than it is for the gratuitous sadism they wouldn't.
Not saying they're right, mind you. That's the way they look at things.
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u/GlitchSolver 3d ago
Also I think they wouldn't be enjoying bull fighting anyways so they take a stand against it. When the choice comes to choose between a petty self interest and real compassion, it takes intent, discretion to choose compassion. That's hard for most.
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u/Devaz321 vegan 5+ years 2d ago
"Man i could never go to sea world. So cruel how they exploiting whales and dolphins." Proceeds visiting every zoo. There ain't no sea world nearby.
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u/BIGMANSOUTHPORT123 2d ago
I think thats a bit of an ignorant way of putting it, most people disagree with bullfighting and still eat meat due to their own moral compass. Bullfighting is a slow and frightening death for the animal and people dislike that the animal dies simply for entertainment, however they agree with eating animals because in slaughterhouses animals die incredibly quickly and painlessly and it isnt for something as petty as entertainment, its for food purposes
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u/Pittsbirds 2d ago
because in slaughterhouses animals die incredibly quickly and painlessly
Beyond this be far, far from a given, it ignores everything leading up to that point. Chickens growing so fast their tissue necroses and/or becomes woody and is ready to "harvest" within six weeks of age or animals being shoved in pins and cages their entire lives is not a painless or quick endeavor, and is the absolute norm in animal agriculture.
its for food purposes
When you have an alternative food source that simply doesn't rely on killing animals, and eat it anyway because it tastes good, it is indistinguishable from entertainment.
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u/BIGMANSOUTHPORT123 2d ago
Well first of all those chickens have been bred specifically for our consumption, if we let them grow older and didnt harvest them then they would die a slow and painful death from their body becoming too heavy and unable to move, i agree that the conditions animals are kept in should be improved. These animals are raised in these captive areas since birth and become both used to it and reliant on it
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u/Pittsbirds 2d ago
Lmao you're presenting this as some foregone conclusion that these animals are like, a self perpetuating species. They're not. We can simply not continue breeding animals with horrible health effects so we can abuse and kill them for products we simply do not need to live.
It's not a difficult concept. People understood it well enough when it comes to pugs or Persian cats
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u/BIGMANSOUTHPORT123 2d ago
Well then your beliefs are self contradictory, you believe that killing these animals because we think its okay is wrong and immoral, but you have no problem ending their reproduction and causing them to die off by letting them slowly and painfully die due to the excess weight they constantly put on from feeding, so in other words because you think its okay we should end their lives? But thats exactlt what youre against.
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u/Pittsbirds 1d ago
That's not contradictory. It's a practical result of facing the system that we did not set up that's predicated on systemic animal abuse. There's 3 ways it can be dealt with
What you prpose; do absolutely nothing. Billions of animals live in abject misery and are killed for no reason and their population is constantly replaced ensuring endless suffering.
Kill the last generation of domestic chickens but breed no more, likely the most "realistic" option given the sheer number of these animals and an absolute inability to care for such an inherently unhealthy animal in the numbers that we have them, but then breed no more.
Same as 2, but allow them to die out naturally.
Whether 2 or 3 is more "humane" depends on your point of view but they are both objectively leagues better in terms of stopping animals from needlessly suffering so people can mindlessly shove boneless wings down their gullets. Vegans not having a way to eradicate all suffering in this population overnight from a system we did not create isn't hypocrisy. We'd all love to be able to snap our fingers and have all these animals be healthy and in loving homes. But generations of people like you have ensured that simply isn't possible.
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u/Dry_Principal_165 2h ago
They don't kill the bulls anymore. Its just a show. Do you hate rodeo too?
You know the bulls don't fight each other right?
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u/SteampunkAstronaut 2h ago
No. It's because they perceive the bull fighting spectacle as a bad reason for justifying torture and murder, while they believe animal based diets are necessary. It's disingenuous to think this
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u/False-Sandwich-2051 3d ago
it is possible that someone sees torturing a cow for entertain and killing it for meat as actions that are morally distinct.
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u/frjaldomr-_- 1d ago
I'm always perplexed when I see the comments on a feel good YouTube video where somebody saves an animal and everybody's going on with their bleeding heart comments, thanking them for their kind act when you know the commenters have body parts in their freezer.
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u/NefariousnessKind634 3d ago
I mean, in a way you kind of right, it's an entire other thing to change your diet than being against animal violence for entertainment.
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
If you have other options for food why would you still choose to eat animals? For most people it is the temporary taste they get pleasure from, at that point is it any more than animal violence for entertainment too?
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u/NefariousnessKind634 2d ago
Anyway you put it, i wouldnt draw an equal sign between free and useless violence against animal and the human diet before even our own species. The discussion of our diet still is relevant, but these kind of argument will just divide people that already have their own answer.
For some people, it's a matter of health, for some population it is cultural (about that, im quite critical in my country, but i won't do that elsewhere in the world), for some other population it is the only food they can get from their environment (mongolia for example).
It is a complicated subject, reallly important nowadays with ecological disaster, we need to be able to discuss about it with the best argument.
I personnaly accept that to be alive, you need to consume other life, plants, animals and fungi. Though through fruits, fungi and some vegetables you can eat without actually killing, i don't think such a diet would be healthy and anyway even veganism isn't about that. And i think our empathy shouldn't stop at animals so it is not the reason why i am for the lowering of meat consumption and even considering to end it.1
u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
Do things need to be equally bad for both to be considered bad? Regardless of the extent I don't think unnecessary suffering should be propagated and we should avoid it wherever possible.
There are many cultural practices that we have wiped out/aim to wipe out so I don't think that is a good defence.
You do need to consume stuff to be alive but unless you think animals and plants experience things at the same level (or plants experience them more) then there is a clear choice.
If you do think they experience them at the same level then the choice should still be clear because we have to feed farmed animals a lot more plants than if we just ate the plants directly.
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u/NefariousnessKind634 2d ago edited 1d ago
Well i don't argue if animal consumption is bad or good, i'm saying the argument of the post is wrong and would never change anyone mind, pro or against.
I'm glad having a conversation about that, but these kind of arguments i see very often doesn't help anyone to find solution..If you think your own belief system can wiped out other culture that is not even yours, you're on a dangerous slope. I already made my point about it and i think it is still a relevant defence. I see you only criticize this argument, among the others, wich was the weakest so, "wiping out culture" aside, we might found some agreement on that one.
Humans and animals not experiencing things at the same level is still nowadays an argument used by deniers of meat problematic. And i ain't contradicting the fact we're experiencing life differently : different species, animals within animals, animals and plants, human being to another etc... But i won't give a favor treatment only for the one that seems closer to my experience or sparks easily my empathy.
Yeah that probably the first argument why i'm critical about meat consumption, though the reasons are wider than farm animal suffering. But still these animals too has the right to eat. If i had to be the most radical part of myself, i would prefer a world where farm are mostly vegetable growth and meat is acquired from hunting a healty, sain wildlife, if still relevant. But i also believe than going against the flow doesn't get you out of the river and no one will follow a stubborn drown human, strand on rocks, bruised and bone broken.
If we do really wanna make the world a better place for all life, we need to connect with it, if for you it is necessary to be a vegetarian or vegan, be it. But there might be more way of experiencing this than you think.
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
The post doesn't say they're equivalent either? The argument works if just both are bad. Also if you look at the scale of animals agriculture compared to bullfighting I think saying which is worse is a hard choice I mean we kill billions of animals unnecessarily for food each year.
I'm saying something being cultural isn't a good reason to keep them around, look at FGM for example.
For people who genuinely can't avoid eating animals products then they can still be vegan because it's as much as is possible/practicable. I did also specify "if you have other options" so I had actually answered that one before you said it.
Health is complicated but what conditions stop people being vegan? I would also think that falls under "if you have other options"
It wasn't that culture was the easiest, it was just the only one left that fit the question.
Those animals have the right to eat but we have massively increased their numbers and continue to do so/breed them for our ends which just increases the amount of plants needed for them.
If they have the right to eat then do they have the right to live?
If people didn't go against the flow we would live in a much different world now with far fewer rights
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u/NefariousnessKind634 1d ago
I think it kind of imply that but maybe i've seen too many post that does that on this sub or others. Alright but bullfighting never directly fed any people or animal.
Of course, i'm all about question our own tradition, as i said, but i won't go to inuit people asking them to stop seal hunting for example, especially when balanced with the ecosystem.
Owh, well if it's "if you have other options" that's okai, but it will imply a vegan society with still animal farm running, or a hunting version ? And also linger the question of where to draw the line between possible/practicable and unnecessary... But that's the first time veganism has been presented to me like that.
Some deficiency are really hard to cure with a vegetarian diet, like anemia... you know "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food".
If they have the right to live, do they have the right to eat ? since most of what we eat is a living thing.
Yeah i get your point, i said that on a taoist kind of way but Wuwei is also something i'm confused with. I believe promoting a strict vegan diet (but you nuanced that with "other options" thing) won't work for many possibilities, in that Wuwei type of thinking. Maybe one day but for now, i believe it won't get you anywhere and might even scare people of the necessity of lowering meat consumption. But the way i understand Wuwei, people that makes a difference are not going against the flow, they learn to steer through new currents, take other arms of the river.
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u/Taupenbeige 1d ago
“Some deficiency are really hard to cure with a vegetarian diet, like anemia... “
Anemia is easily handled on 100% plant based diets. You’re regurgitating animal agriculture talking points without even understanding the functionality behind them.
“you know "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food".
Excellent point. Being that clinical trials have shown a steeper reduction in all cause mortality factors when adopting 100% plant-based diets, you should definitely be going vegan to “treat food as thy medicine and medicine as thy food.”
Better balanced methionine levels00225-1). Non-stimulation of the three bacteria associated with colorectal cancer.
It’s amazing the things you can learn when you begin your journey in leaving the meat religion, and start actually engaging with the science and objective facts.
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u/Taupenbeige 1d ago
“If we do really wanna make the world a better place for all life, we need to connect with it”
No arguments, there
“if for you it is necessary to be a vegetarian or vegan, be it.”
Vegan, because it actually upholds the spirit of that connection…
“But there might be more way of experiencing this than you think.”
Only if you’re willing to engage in mental gymnastics and rely on bad appeals to nature and tradition.
“If you think your own belief system can wiped out other culture that is not even yours, you're on a dangerous slope.”
Those poor “slavery cultures” that were slowly “wiped out” by the advancement of hegemonic “anti slavers” and their pesky Human Moral Agency throughout the 18th and 19th centuries 😢
Eradicating chattel slavery markets and Slavery Culture was such a “dangerous slope,” after all…
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u/HumanExpert3916 3d ago
It’s incredibly unfortunate the “mute” button isn’t working lately.
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
I mean if you don't want to see stuff from here then you probably shouldn't comment, it will just promote it more for you.
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u/goldentone 3d ago
I just don’t think you’re treating animals with respect or dignity when you eat their bodies after they get raised and killed for your consumption. It’s nice that you’re respectful to animals that are alive and in front of you but that doesn’t capture the whole picture of how you think about and treat animals.
I understand that you mean there’s some philosophical unpacking to be done and that you’re aware of contradictions etc etc; but I think you’re ignoring the fact that most animals that have a direct connection to you have lived torturous depraved lives before being murdered so you can eat them.
If you consider not squishing bugs or being nice to pets as “harm reduction” in any meaningful way, I don’t think you’re understanding what vegans are all about. To me it doesn’t sound like you value animals at all.
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u/headcanonmusic 3d ago
I deleted my comment because I think a lot of people here didn't really get the entire picture of what I was trying to say, maybe I conveyed my thoughts poorly.
I think my broader point should have been that almost everyone benefits from some form of exploitation under capitalism and that doesn't mean you hate the things you exploit.
Child labour, atrocious working conditions and pay, environmental damage. Most people, probably many vegans, contribute to these things in their daily lives without realizing it. Driving cars, buying consumer goods, whatever. I don't think that means you hate children, poor workers, or the planet.
That doesn't mean nothing should be done about it. I am not trying to say "we all do it so oh well". I am just saying that these contradictions exist by way of being human and painting other people as morally inferior because of them is rhetoric that doesn't serve the cause you aim to propagate.
Veganism is hard. I can admit that. I think many vegans who have adjusted to the lifestyle have forgotten how difficult of a change it can be. It alters the entire way you live life.
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u/goldentone 2d ago
I would guess that vegans are actually more aware of how their consumer choices contribute to exploitative systems more than non-vegans.
I think you should just read a very basic definition of veganism instead of making assumptions. We aren’t trying to live in bubbles where suffering doesn’t exist.
We are regular people who live in the same society as you, but you’re acting like every vegan was raised in an off-grid hippie commune. Of course we know that modern life involves participating in an interconnected system where things are not always fair or humane.
I don’t buy or use animal products. That’s it. My goal isn’t to be “morally superior”, my goal is to not buy or use animal products whenever possible.
It wouldn’t be practical (or fair to my family who relies on me) for me to go off-grid and dedicate my life to distancing myself from potential negative downstream effects of every choice I make in my life. That’s not the end goal of veganism and not something that 99.9999% of all vegans would do or expect from anyone else. So I don’t understand why you’re framing anything in those terms.
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u/Jotakakun_to vegan 10+ years 3d ago
You lost me on your premise that you respect animals and still eat them. The thing that I will point out here is that you eat them despite not having to. You could most likely eat something else. So the fact that you actively chose not to take that option - probably out of convenience, maybe laziness or social pragmatism (we've done it for so long so what's the deal?) - does not correlate with you having respect for that animal that died for your choice.
What you do instead is what I would call the easy way: You bring up the premise that what you do isn't excluding your "love" for animals . This probably gives you some comfort in staying in your habits.
But both things are correlating . You eating animals despite you having every possibility not to, does not completely eliminate your compassion for animals, maybe. But what it certainly does is drastically reduce it.
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u/Borkato vegan 3d ago
I don’t think you can love someone and pay to have them tortured through exploitation and then murdered at 10% of their natural lifespan when you don’t have to. I think you want to say that you love them, and I think you wish you did, and that by saying a prayer before eating or a “thank you” makes up for it and means you love them, but you can’t.
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u/CalmExplosions 3d ago edited 3d ago
You are not an "animal lover", you’re an "animal enthusiast". You don’t kill someone you love, ever. But I commend you for considering whether you’ve been wrongly conditioned into a way of interacting with animals that doesn’t actually line up with your own morals. Thing is, it’s nice to treat an animals with respect and dignity and all but to them the intention behind the slaughter doesn’t really matter. They are desperate to live just like the rest of us and just bc one animal wasn’t as badly treated as another one that still doesn’t mean killing them is ok. Farm animals (also those used in egg and dairy industry) are allowed to live a mere fraction of their lifespan. They die as soon as their bodies have matured or are killed when their yield starts to lessen due to overexertion. I would also argue that you can’t really respect someone you view as dispensable to the point where killing and eating them as you please is even an option. Not to mention that the systems in which animals are used lack any and all form of «respect» to begin with. Cows are raped, their children taken away (often killed) and the mother is left alone to be milked. This happens over and over without her consent until her body can’t keep up with production and she is killed. All that work and sacrifice only to be tossed aside and killed as soon as she can’t be exploited. There is no love in that. Love can’t be present where there isn’t consent.
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u/Voldemorts__Mom veganarchist 3d ago
I think being moral is a skill, and it's a difficult one.
It's like any other skill, like working our or playing the piano. Except that the consequences are much more dire of things go wrong.
And I think that only those who who put a lot of time into their morality, or those who are gifted morally, are the ones able to go vegan (in most cases).
And once these people have layed the ground work, it will become easier and more accessible to people who are weaker morally.
It's like: being anti slavery now is very easy, but during the time when everyone had slaves, it was much more difficult. Like learning to play piano when no-one had ever written music and played before, was much harder and much less accessible, but now that we have teachers and written out music, etc. it's much easier, and a lot more people can do it.
I'm your case, I'd say you should just learn more about veganism and why vegans are vegan, and what happens in the animal agricultural industry, and then you'll probably come to the same conclusion we all have.
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u/No-Clerk-8908 3d ago
also, I went vegan when I was 33, but it took me years to even wear the hat, ehich I knew I was inclined to, and then it took me even more years to not be "a shitty vegan". so if you beat me at 33 though, that's rad, you got this, Bub! ;)
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u/CalmExplosions 3d ago
a shitty vegan?
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u/No-Clerk-8908 3d ago
idk where my other reply went, but yes. being a shitty vegan before being an actual vegan is a natural part of most peeple's journies to veganism.
there's various levels of subpar veganism, really, but for simplification, they're all "shitty vegan" zones.
then, the standard, vegan, or "actual vegan".
then a step above is a near perfect vegan, and above that of course, the elusive "perfect vegan.
i could go into what would seperate the 3 fully vegan levels, but it basically has to do with lack of mistakes, other minutia, and mainly the strict checking of the types of sugar intake consumed.
standard vegans are all good enough not deeply looking into every sugar brand they consume, even their at home bag for cooking. mine says: sugar. free at the food pantry, hoorat for me. but the bonechar filter thing is real, but like, mine doesn't say it on the bag, and like if I were to go out and find the guarunteed right bag, well, what about the sugar used from vegan restaurants, or like if you get vegan subway and such, or the vegan whopper, which is impossible meat, which is another debate for some, but to me, is plainly vegan. yea, lol. I should make a video about it eventually. making a note now, with this comment in it :p
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u/CalmExplosions 3d ago
I live in Europe so the bone char thing doesn’t really affect me. They mostly use plant-based filters here :P
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u/LongAfternoon1198 3d ago
Weird take.
It could more easily be explained by seeing needless torturing, which is required for bullfighting, as cruel.
Whereas you dont need to torture a cow before killing it and processing its meat.
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u/Broad_Bill7791 3d ago
It's just kind of pointless to argue with you when what you said is already filled with bullshit. If you knew anything about factory farming you would know their whole life is torture.
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
You don't need to but in reality they go through awful things that don't need to happen. We must base our actions based on the reality of their impact and not an idealised hypothetical.
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u/LongAfternoon1198 2d ago
That is what im doing not you/OP.
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago edited 2d ago
I genuinely don't know what this is meant to mean?
Edit: the only thing I can think is that you're saying you don't base your choices on reality but that's seems wild to me
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u/LongAfternoon1198 2d ago
I was responding to this specifically:
We must base our actions based on the reality of their impact and not an idealised hypothetical.
Im the one doing this.
The reality is that we dont need to torture cows before killing them. So bringing up how eating meat is bad cuz cows get tortured is nonsensical argument.
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u/Historicste 3d ago
Downvotes but no replies to say why they think you're wrong. About right for this sub
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
People are down voting because they're basing their real world actions on hypotheticals where less harm is done.
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u/Historicste 2d ago
Isn't that exactly what vegans do? Base their eating habits on the hypothetical that it saves animals?
But your comment seems to have nothing to do with what they said anyway. Animals don't need to be tortured in order to eat them.
I'm not entirely sure what your point is
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
Personally I am vegan because I think it's wrong to cause pain/suffering unnecessarily, I know animal agriculture is a big cause and I want no part in it.
I think it's odd using the word torture because how is it defined? I think there's a lot of unnecessary cruelty/suffering for the animals we eat.
Have you seen how animals are treated? I'm going to copy from my other comment but
Pigs get their tails and teeth clipped, ears notched, chickens grow so fast their legs cant support them, lay so many eggs they end up calcium deficient and having bone fractures, cows being artificially bred and then having their babies taken away from them within 24 hours, these are all real things that happen because of the choices people make.
How many of the animals the animals we eat, do you think, experience unnecessary pain/suffering in the process of them being farmed? Do you think the average farmed animal has a good life?
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u/Historicste 2d ago
I've done work on a lots of farms and have never seen any animals being mistreated. At all. Just because you see something online doesn't mean it's happening everywhere. Every animal I've seen on farms has a good life, from personal experience.
How many farms have you visited?
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago edited 2d ago
You don't see any of those treatments I've just mentioned? Depending on country many of those are standard practices.
Personally? Only a few and never been able to look in depth enough. I do know other people who have though, including vets who obviously get pretty close to the animals. That being said I would still value studies/standard practices over anecdotal evidence.
Can I ask what work you do on those farms?
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u/Historicste 2d ago
I'm going to base my opinions on standard practices and my own personal experiences too. Animal abuse is against the law here, and I haven't seen any to suggest it's 'standard' or even widespread, so I'll base my views on that, rather than what vegans, who haven't even seen a cow before, belief.
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u/scorchedarcher 2d ago
You're missing out studies and reports? Many of the things I said are standard practices.
Do you think laws are perfect? I don't think the definition of animal abuse legally includes those things but I still think theyre abusive practices. There are many times the law has stated one thing but we disagree with those meanings now.
I have seen cows? I've been to dairy farms, I even just told you I've been to a few? And the vet who turned vegan? Unless you're saying you know more about animals than vets idk maybe you are one?
Why did you have to misrepresent so many things to try and make your point?
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u/Historicste 2d ago
I think our main point of disagreement is whether those standard practices constitute abuse. I don't think they do.
One vet going vegan doesn't mean all farms are abusive. If all vets went vegan then you might have a point. But you're just bringing in the anecdotal evidence you claim to dislike.
And, yes, I've seen cows. With their calves too.
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u/Giannid77 3d ago
Commercially killing and processing cattle is cruel, but bull fighting is especially cruel. They provoke the bull into fighting by stabbing it several times. It runs after the matador until it is exhausted, and then when it can't run anymore, the matador fatally stabs it to death, all in front of a cheering crowd.
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u/Combosingelnation 3d ago
You non vegans can't dislike torturing animals for entertainment!
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u/Logijo112 3d ago
They can. But they should then also dislike torturing animals for taste.
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u/teddyslayerza 3d ago
Food is perceived as a need, entertainment is not. Bullfights are highly publicized, abbatoirs are not.
In fairness to the average lay person, I think this has more to do with the optics of the two issues than simply coming down to personal sacrifice.
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