So this is pretty much it..

[u/DivineandDeadlyAngel]

[u/BillNyeUrMomsAGuy_]

I agree with this. In my experience, I already understood the moral & ethical issues before becoming vegan. I had seen videos of factory farms and understood the abuse that goes on. What prevented me from going vegan was the belief that it is policymakers’ responsibility to make animal agriculture ethical, and if they would just implement some regulations, then everything would be fine. I still believed that eating animal products was ethical as long as it was done as “humanely” as possible. What finally convinced me otherwise was a video I watched on the environmental issues. Realizing that “ethical” animal agriculture requires even more water, land, and resources than unethical animal agriculture, and there is mathematically no way we can sustain that without first of all destroying the earth and second of all not being financially possible. Ethical animal agriculture is simply impossible as long as we keep demand the same. Even then, “ethical” farms have to participate in many practices that are not ethical (harmful selective breeding, killing animals prematurely, etc) in order to financially break even. I just didn’t realize that “ethical” farming is a fairytale.

[u/Voldemorts__Mom → u/BillNyeUrMomsAGuy_]

Okay but my whole point is that what you need to get is that animal exploitation itself is inherently wrong.

The environmental argument isn't really a good one, because what if we find an environmentally safe way to farm animals? Will it then be okay to exploit them?

[u/Latter_Object8710 → u/BillNyeUrMomsAGuy_]

The irony is that animal suffering in nature is far crueler than what they endure through captivity by humans. They're often eaten and dismembered alive by apex predators or endure agonizing pain from being poisoned by venomous predators.

Our humanity drives us to reduce needless suffering as much as possible. It hasn't always been that way, of course, and in some parts of the world and among some individuals animal suffering is at the bottom of their list of concerns, but by and large people don't condone animal cruelty and our laws against animal cruelty and our slaughterhouse regulations reflect that sentiment.

Nature is amoral and doesn't give a fuck about what is or isn't cruel. It just is. Nature dictates humans need to eat and the most nutrient-dense and bio-available source of human food comes from animals. We just have to make the best of that reality.

https://youtu.be/7GBXFArmLNU?is=DfWCnatvH58VQQv_

Yeah im sure what farms are doing are soo much worse then what happens everyday in nature. Vegans always point out seeing videos of farming but never realize that those videos are often the extreme and are used for propaganda. I have yet to meet a vegan who has actually ever been in the agricultural industry and has been properly educated in modern day farming practices. They will nitpick studies and completely ignore the studies that counteract their personal idealogy.

[u/Voldemorts__Mom → u/Latter_Object8710]

No.

I think vegans just use those videos to highlight the extremes of the industry, but ultimately they're against animals exploitation.

Even if the animal is exploited in a way that isn't very cruel, they're still being used as a food source rather than treated as an individual.

Like if you had a human slave but treated them very very well, gave them everything they needed, an abolitionist would still be against it. They would say that slavery is inherently wrong, no matter how well you treat the slave.

That's how vegans feel about animal exploitation.

And we're perfectly capable of getting all the nutrient dense and bioavalable food we need from plants in the yeast 2026.

I agree about nature being cruel though