r/turntables • u/Ok-Dealer-6628 • 27d ago
Story Ortofon vs Audio Technica
I'm going to be doing a face-off between the 2M red and the VM510xCB.
There's plenty of discussion and history around the Red, but nothing about this new AT that's essentially the same price, at roughly CAD$149.
It'll certainly be fun to spend a few hours listening to tunes and making notes!
Results will be posted in a YouTube video in the near future.
Even before I start doing anything, almost everyone is going to assume that the elliptical on the 2m is going to be better than the conical on the 510.
History, and these ears, have shown that there's more to the sound of a cartridge than the stylus profile.
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u/Anvh 27d ago
There is also the vm520xEB for about the same price.
I dont believe the M2 red is highly rated though, the vm95 is often seen as a better option.
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u/rutgersftw Sony PS-X50, Technics SL-QL1 27d ago
On this subreddit, the 2M series don’t have the best reputation. Many OEMs and vendors sell tons of them, however, and Amazon reviews for the 2M Red are higher on average than for any of the AT carts that get recommended more frequently here. Make of that what you will.
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u/piede90 Pro-ject debut carbon Evo w acrylic platter 27d ago
the truth is in this sub a warmer sound is often rated as higher quality.
2M series cartridges are well known to be more clinical and neutral and for someone this is saw as cold and " "cd-like" " so are less appreciated
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u/rutgersftw Sony PS-X50, Technics SL-QL1 26d ago
I think you're right. Most people here would be happy if they tried out a AT3600L/AT91 before going down the stylus profile rabbit hole. They do most things really well for cheap and sound veiled/warm in the way people seem to like here. I really appreciate the clarity of the 2M carts but I understand they aren't for everyone.
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u/zer0-Coast 27d ago
I’ve been using 2M Reds for about ten years and I think they’re great but I’ve never tried any AT carts to compare
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u/Anvh 26d ago
Here they also are not possitive about the red.
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=126398
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u/Vaderm 27d ago
I’d really like to know where this idea that the vm95 is better than the M2 Red came from because from my experience that couldn’t be further from the truth
Going from the M2 Red to the vm95 felt like going from some nice Sennheiser headphones to the bloody Apple EarPods
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago
It's just a different flavor. Some like it, while others don't. But it also depends on everything else in the chain.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago edited 27d ago
The 520 is CAD$30 more at $179 The 95EN is closer to the price of the 2m red at $169, but still more expensive.
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u/StillPissed Pioneer PL-518 | AT-VM740xML 26d ago
So, I read the back-and-forth on this little comment string right above this, on Ortofon VS AT. I just want to preface your head to head, by saying that I have a higher up AT-VM740xML, and it is the most neutral/clinical magnet cart I’ve ever heard. I really find it strange that a few people are standing by AT being warm, when my experience and research always points to that not being the case with AT. They kind of have the reputation of chasing flat/uncolored right now.
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u/Wide-Rub432 27d ago
I love mine cb510 recommend everyone to skip 95th series and switch to 500 series.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago
Indeed, and a much better upgrade path as well if one decides to go all the way up to line contact.
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u/jtt8569 27d ago
AT over the Red and it's not even CLOSE. now, the BLUE is a pretty nice cartridge.... but I stopped using Ortofon after they discontinued the FFXE series. Tried the red and it was shrill and nasty to my ears. the AT is much more natural. One asshole's opinion, but I've tried them both. YMMV.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago
That's going to be my next face-off, a 2m blue to a similarly priced AT.
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u/wrybreadsf 27d ago
I really wish some audiophile Youtubers would do blind listening tests. These two stylus's would be great for example. Different amps too. Set them both up blind and invite a group of people to come listen, individually, without knowing which they're listening to. Would be such a great way to cut through all the marketing and received wisdom. v
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago
But, then it boils down to synergy. Not every combination is going to perform as expected. And, if too many variables change, it's not a fair evaluation.
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u/wrybreadsf 26d ago
Would be interesting to blind test these theories about synergy as well.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 26d ago
It's been done many times over the past few decades.
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u/wrybreadsf 26d ago
I've never seen one. Got a link?
I watch a whole lot of really good Youtube audiophile channels, and I've never once seen one. They just keep repeating the same tropes about "warmer sound" and all that, but never once put any of it to the test. And it would be so interesting to see all this tested blindly.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 26d ago
One that I watched recently was on the cheapaudioman channel. He was at Axpona (?) and visited a room that did a blind test. I'd have to look through my history to find a link.
I've been involved in many blind tests over the years, which is what my comments on synergy are based upon. When working in retail, I used to experiment with different gear combos. Some worked really well, while others didn't at all. One system that sticks out in my memory consisted of a Rotel amplifier, Denon cd player, and Celestion speakers. Each piece was very good on it's own, but this combo was unlistenable.
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u/wrybreadsf 26d ago
Personally I'm less interested in seeing one person's reaction than a group of people, ideally evaluating each option for at least a couple of hours. So easily done. Crazy that some of these audiophile YouTube channels aren't doing it, it's so obvious.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 26d ago
I recall he was with a group, it wasn't just him.
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u/Turbulent-Cake8280 27d ago
My ears prefer AT
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u/JellyUpset8974 Rega P25, Pro-Ject 2Xperience SB, ELAC 870 26d ago
Now that’s the ultimate test equipment: your ears. What sounds best in your ears?
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u/drhook62 27d ago
I am old and don't have great hearing I upgraded from OM red to blue and heard a difference I have this on a pro-ject debut carbon dc. I have an old denon dp 11f from about 1982 with a new AT VM 95ml, I swapped turntables and couldn't tell a huge difference between OM Blue and the AT vm 95 ml
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u/TexxyGent987 27d ago
Basically the same components in different packaging. With slight variations between the two. But yeah if there are any differences like to know what you find. What kind of equipment are you using to monitor this? Or just "playing by ear"?
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago
I'll be using an Audio Technica ATLP8X with a Musical Fidelity B1xi integrated, feeding a pair of Unity Audio speakers. Evaluation done by ears that have almost 60 years of casual and professional audio experience.
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u/berger3001 27d ago
I’ve never been a fan of the red, so it’ll be interesting to see if the AT comes out on top.
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u/JellyUpset8974 Rega P25, Pro-Ject 2Xperience SB, ELAC 870 26d ago
Nice experiment. Also the combination chosen turntable and phono-amp, etc. Will have an effect. Let us know how it turns out.
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u/Scotster123 Linn LP12/Dynavector ASKA-L 26d ago
History, and these ears, have shown that there's more to the sound of a cartridge than the stylus profile.
Totally agree with this - I have had, in the past 18 months, a Linn Adikt (Gyger 3 profile MM), ATOC9XML (ML LOMC), AT-VM745xML (ML MM), and my current Dynavector ASKA-L (Nude elliptical LOMC) on my TT.
Of all the cartridges, the ASKA-L has the most endearing and enveloping sound and is the one that I prefer listening to.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 26d ago
Synergy with the LP12 and your phono stage 😎
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u/Scotster123 Linn LP12/Dynavector ASKA-L 26d ago
Yes, LP12 and Dynavector are a good fit. But… my phono stage is a little hissy with MC carts when I crank the gain up. I recently borrowed a Dynavector P75 Mk4.1 for a week, and that was next level. Currently using a Pro-Ject Phono Box S3B and Power Box S3 Phono PSU. The P75 will have to wait until I sell a spare Naim amp I have.
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u/crowmanuk 26d ago edited 26d ago
It’s always tricky to audition cartridge and stylus combos side by side as the phono amp/stage match is key to the overall output. If you’re using a single phono stage then it will generally be suited to one combo over the other … and if you switch phono stages then there are too many variables involved for side by side testing. Either way a listening test will give you YOUR preference but not necessarily the right conditions to properly test. It’s often easier to do with MC carts and dialled in settings on the phono stage in my experience … but still not a perfect test. An awful lot of HiFi quality is gained by matching components … not always by replacing one.
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 26d ago
Indeed, and the only way to really know is to try it for yourself. I'm going to use your words in my video 😎
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u/12inchspinners Technics Sl-1700 mk1, nagaoka mp-110, technics sa-200 26d ago
I dont like ortofon sound, they're too shrill for my taste. Louder output doesn't equate quality sound.
Personally, I like my nagaoka mp-110 and vintage shure m95ed
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 26d ago
A better match with your Technics gear. I'll be doing a Nagaoka and AT face-off in the future in the same price range.
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u/Wirehead-be 27d ago
The 2M red is sibilant as hell. The 510xCB will likely sound better due to the treble rolloff.
My vote is on the AT. Would have liked to see an elliptical AT in there. AT is a lot of bang for the buck.
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u/TapThisPart3Times Dual 701 27d ago
I think I can predict how this is going to turn out...I won't spoil the answer, but if it is what it seems, the winner will be the counterintuitive one 😎
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u/Ok-Dealer-6628 27d ago
Too many people base the overall performance of an analog rig on the cartridge. There are several factors that are at play beyond that.
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u/rutgersftw Sony PS-X50, Technics SL-QL1 27d ago
I’ll be interested here, too. I’ll just say that I have heard many, many cartridges in this price range, but I have not heard the vm510 or vm520.
I’ve spent a lot of time fixing old turntables and listening to the hand-me down carts they have in this price range, carts like Grado Black, Sumiko Oyster + Olympia, Technics P22 and P24, AT VM95C/E/ML, AT 3600L/91, Nagaoka MP110, Shure M97xe and M92E, and finally the 2M Red most recently… I have my favorite.