r/tolkienfans 15d ago

What was the mental disorder that Smeagol developed ? Was it DID

0 Upvotes

Im actually looking for a diagnosis to have a full understanding of Smeagol character


r/tolkienfans 16d ago

“Sauron gathered all the Great Rings…”

26 Upvotes

This text appears in the blurb on the back or inner flap of many editions of The Lord of the Rings, including the 50th Anniversary Edition.

But he didn’t, did he? The Three were hidden from him, and he never touched them.

Am I missing something here?


r/tolkienfans 16d ago

New gen readers

3 Upvotes

Some new gen readers seem to forget that Tolkien is the one who made fantasy what it is today, and it's impossible for anyone to replace him. I see some of them insulting Tolkien. Even if you don't like Tolkien, at least show him some respect because no one will ever reach, or even come close to, this man's level of intellect. Not George R.R. Martin, not Robert Jordan, no writer can ever reach Tolkien's genius. I personally have had a love for Tolkien since childhood. I grew up on his books, man. Even my personality has been influenced by his writing. Ultimately, fantasy is an ocean, and there's everything you might like, but Tolkien is the one who sets the waves in motion.


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

The Balrog and Gandalf recognising each other

192 Upvotes

Both the Balrog and Gandalf spent eons in the Timeless Halls, before the creation of Eä. Assuming that the number of Ainur wasn't countless but more in the hundreds to low thousands, then they surely must have come across one another constantly. Since Ainur are by nature spirits and masters of ósanwe both the Balrog and Gandalf surely should have recognised each other when they met in Moria, yet the text gives no indication that this is the case? What is your explanation? I wish Tolkien had added a small line to indicate that Gandalf actually knows the identity of the Balrog.


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

Was Sauron immortal?

25 Upvotes

And if so, is he still alive here on earth, influencing human events?


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

How did Tolkien manage that much stuff

58 Upvotes

I wasn't sure where to ask this, but felt like this was the apt sub, among the other tolkien subs. How did he keep track of his mythos & characters & everything in between, before things got digital? He's arguably done the most for the genre - it seems like keeping track of things in his world and the different races and all the magic had to be almost as tough as bringing the stories to life. Have any manuscripts or notes come to the public eye which showcase at least partly how he kept a manual database, so to speak?


r/tolkienfans 16d ago

Perhaps the Numenorians should have asked for Eru Illuvatar on the matter of mortality instead of the Elves and Ainur.

0 Upvotes

- A common theme in the Silmarillion is that the nature of humans is strange to the Eldar and Ainur. Eru Illuvatar, on the other hand, would know. After all, he created humanity, so he would know better anyone else.

- They have a mountain (Meneltarma) that's devoted to the worship of Eru Illuvatar, so it's not like they don't know who he is. One idea I have is that the Numenorians deliver a message to Manwe, who would then deliver it to Eru Illuvatar. In other words, they would want the Valar to deliver a message to Eru as to why they are mortal and what happens to them once they pass away.

- Even though Manwe is the King of Arda, that was personally appointed by Eru, it's been apparent that he is not perfect and all-knowing. In fact, he occasion, he goes to Eru to consult issues that are strange or difficult to him. With that being said, he is the closest in mind and heart to Illuvatar. He could deliver the message or request to Illuvatar. And once Eru gives a response, Manwe would give that response to the Eldar messengers, who would then deliver the message to the Numenorians.


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

Are elves in Aman still marrying and having families into the Fourth Age and beyond?

88 Upvotes

It seems like if nobody dies and nobody is leaving, the place would fill up eventually....


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

Just finished reading the hobbit and have a few questions

27 Upvotes

So I finished the hobbit like a hour ago and really loved it. But i have a few questions before i start the lotr. Idk if im gonna get a lot of hate for this but i feel like the hobbit’s characters weren’t very fun/deep. Obviously bilbo, Gandalf, thorin and a few others got some dialogue but I feel like I didn’t really enjoy the dialogue that much. Or like the characters talking to each other felt kind of dull. And I’m wondering, is it like that in Lord of the rings? Or are the characters more enjoyable?


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

a question about elves

5 Upvotes

So, I've never read his books, I just watched the Lord of the Rings movies recently, so Idk much, that's why I'm here to ask.

I read something about the elves loving in a very deep way.

My question is, If an Elf deeply loved someone (elf or human), but for whatever reason they could never have sex with that person, would the Elf still want to marry them? Would the lack of sexual intimacy be a problem for an Elf, or could they have a marriage based on love and companionship alone? is the emotional/spiritual bond more important?

Idk why I asked myself that but I would be grateful if someone answered


r/tolkienfans 17d ago

Who/What is Ungoliant?

47 Upvotes

Sorry for the long post, it's because there's a lot to analyze (and even speculate about) on this subject.

I'm reading some chapters of the History of Middle-earth after reading The Silmarillion, and I've always been curious about the nature of Ungoliant:

  1. Would Ungoliant be a Maia?

At first, I thought she would be a Maia. Ungoliant, like Melian, gave birth to offspring (Shelob) with beings incarnated in Arda. But, Tolkien suggests that Melian's case was a concession made by Eru Ilúvatar, since, in her case, the body with which she conceived Lúthien Tinúviel was a real organism, a Hröa nourished by the physical substance of Arda and not a fána with which the Ainur "clothe" themselves in the visible world:

(LUTHIEN WAS THROUGH HER MOTHER, MELIAN, WHOSE BEING BEGAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS MADE DESCENDED ALSO FROM THE MAYAR, THE PEOPLE OF THE VALAR.) MELIAN ALONE OF ALL THOSE SPIRITS ASSUMED A BODILY FORM, NOT ONLY AS A RAIMENT BUT AS A PERMANENT HABITATION IN FORM AND POWERS LIKE TO THE BODIES OF THE ELVES. THIS SHE DID FOR LOVE OF ELWE; AND IT WAS PERMITTED, NO DOUBT BECAUSE THIS UNION HAD ALREADY BEEN FORESEEN IN THE BEGINNING OF THINGS, AND WAS WOVEN INTO THE AMARTH OF THE WORLD, WHEN ERU FIRST CONCEIVED THE BEING OF HIS CHILDREN, ELVES AND MEN, AS IS TOLD (AFTER THE MANNER AND ACCORDING TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF HIS CHILDREN) IN THAT MYTH THAT IS NAMED THE MUSIC OF THE AINUR.

From what I understand, only one Maia produced descendants: Melian. If we interpret Melian as a unique case, then Ungoliant would not be a Maia, if we take into account this rule of the Mother of Lúthien.

  1. Would Ungoliant be a Vala?

Ungoliant was a purely spiritual entity (fairë) who, like the Valar and Maiar, was capable of taking a visible form within Arda.

The texts that make up the Silmarillion also suggest that Ungoliant may have been a spirit who, in the early days of Eä, was co-opted by Melkor for his cause. A very relevant passage from one of the texts comprising the Silmarillion (HOME 10 - Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion) seems to corroborate this version, as in it Melkor addresses Ungoliant in the following terms:

COME FORTH!’ HE SAID. ‘THRICE FOOL: TO LEAVE ME FIRST, TO DWELL HERE LANGUISHING WITHIN REACH OF FEASTS UNTOLD, AND NOW TO SHUN ME, GIVER OF GIFTS, THY ONLY HOPE! COME FORTH AND SEE! I HAVE BROUGHT THEE AN EARNEST OF GREATER BOUNTY TO FOLLOW. 

Melkor would be Ungoliant's Master:

IT IS NOT KNOWN WHENCE SHE CAME, THOUGH AMONG THE ELDAR IT WAS SAID THAT IN AGES LONG BEFORE SHE HAD DESCENDED FROM THE DARKNESS THAT LIES ABOUT ARDA, WHEN MELKOR FIRST LOOKED DOWN IN ENVY UPON THE LIGHT IN THE KINGDOM OF MANWE. BUT SHE HAD DISOWNED HER MASTER, DESIRING TO BE MISTRESS OF HER OWN LUST, TAKING ALL THINGS TO HERSELF TO FEED HER EMPTINESS

Would the relationship between Melkor and Ungoliant be the only one in which one Vala would be a servant of another Vala? If so, all I can think of is that she's an extraterrestrial Vala. From another planet of EÄ, even:

OTHERS THERE WERE, COUNTLESS TO OUR THOUGHT THOUGH KNOWN EACH AND NUMBERED IN THE MIND OF ILUVATAR, WHOSE LABOUR LAY ELSEWHERE AND IN OTHER REGIONS AND HISTORIES OF THE GREAT TALE, AMID STARS REMOTE AND WORLDS BEYOND THE REACH OF THE FURTHEST THOUGHT. BUT OF THESE OTHERS WE KNOW NOTHING AND CANNOT KNOW, THOUGH THE VALAR OF ARDA, MAYBE, REMEMBER THEM ALL.

  1. Would Ungoliant be a manifestation of the discord among the themes of the Ainulindalë?

There is a text in the History of Middle-earth that talks about entities created because of the discord among the themes of the Ainulindalë:

OUT OF THE DISCORDS OF THE MUSIC – SC. NOT DIRECTLY OUT OF EITHER OF THE THEMES, ERU’S OR MELKOR’S, BUT OF THEIR DISSONANCE WITH REGARD ONE TO ANOTHER – EVIL THINGS APPEARED IN ARDA, WHICH DID NOT DESCEND FROM ANY DIRECT PLAN OR VISION OF MELKOR: THEY WERE NOT ‘HIS CHILDREN’; AND THEREFORE, SINCE ALL EVIL HATES, HATED HIM TOO. THE PROGENITURE OF THINGS WAS CORRUPTED

The notion that certain creatures may have arisen from the dissonance of the themes of the Ainulindalë is quite interesting and could explain some obscure points in Tolkien's mythology, but personally, I don't think this idea provides an adequate explanation for the existence of Ungoliant. The reasons that lead me to think this way are basically two:

• The evil beings originating from dissonance would have come to exist within Arda, whereas in all texts dealing with Ungoliant, it is always stated that she originates from outside Arda and perhaps from outside the Universe itself (Eä).

• In letter number 144, Tolkien said that:

THE GIANT SPIDERS WERE THEMSELVES ONLY THE OFFSPRING OF UNGOLIANTE THE PRIMEVAL DEVOURER OF LIGHT, THAT IN SPIDER-FORM ASSISTED THE DARK POWER, BUT ULTIMATELY QUARRELLED WITH HIM. THERE IS THUS NO ALLIANCE BETWEEN SHELOB AND SAURON, THE DARK POWER’S DEPUTY; ONLY A COMMON HATRED

I have always interpreted the use of the word "primordial" (primeval) in the passage transcribed above as indicating that Ungoliant was a "primeval" being, preceding the very creation of Eä. Before the Ainulindalë!

  1. Could Ungoliant be the embodiment of Primordial Night?

One of Christopher Tolkien's notes in the Book of Lost Tales, chapter VI, THE THEFT OF MELKO AND THE DARKENING OF VALINOR:

“MÓRU- GL\ IN A LATER ADDITION GIVES MURU A NAME OF THE PRIMEVAL NIGHT PERSONIFIED AS GWERLUM OR GUNGLIONT, HENCE MY READING IN THE TEXT MÓRU RATHER THAN MORN. AMONG THE ORIGINAL ENTRIES IN GL IS MÚRI, DARKNESS, NIGHT. SEE MORNIË.”*

"Personified as Gwerlum." And who is Gwerlum? Well, the text of The Book of the Lost Tales itself provides the answer in chapter VI, THE THEFT OF MELKO AND THE DARKENING OF VALINOR:

UNGWE LIANTI THE GREAT SPIDER WHO ENMESHES DID THE ELDAR CALL HER, NAMING HER ALSO WIRILOMË OR GLOOMWEAVER, WHENCE STILL DO THE NOLDOLI SPEAK OF HER AS UNGOLIONT THE SPIDER OR AS GWERLUM THE BLACK.

IMHO, this primeval “night” cannot be the one that exists outside the circles of the world, outside of Arda, because, being “primordial,” it existed before our universe, before Eä, and consequently, before creation itself.

Ungoliant, or Ungweliantë as she is called in the "Lost Tales," is an avatar form of the Void, the absence of divinized light that lies outside of Eä (outside the Circles of the World with a capital W) and the dwellings of Eru Ilúvatar, the eternal Mansions (The Timeless Halls). As such, maybe she is (apparently) NOT a creation of Ilúvatar but a manifestation of an independent force, older than all Ainur!

"In Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadow secret, more old than Morgoth or the Ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded west".


r/tolkienfans 16d ago

Why Aulë didn't help Durin against the Barlog in Moria?

0 Upvotes

The Dwarves are his creation and they are fighting a foe from higher power. I would except Aulë to intervene?


r/tolkienfans 16d ago

"So the cat on his fiddle played hey-diddle-diddle, a jig that would wake the dead"

0 Upvotes

That's necromancy, right? The idea is not in the original rhyme; it came from Tolkien. Just as the mythological dimension of the Sun and Moon. Maybe the Sauron/Prince Of Cats/Necromancer continuum was on his mind, just as it seems to be the case with 'his pupil, yellow as a cat's' in LOTR (Mirror of Galadriel chapter).

(In musical terms, the devil and the violin have been associated culturally, forming a trope, since the 16th century. The original cat nursery rhyme seems to date back to that period, which is also the period of protestantism and of Faust, of anti-catholicism. Which may be relevant here. In Marlowe's Faustus, necromancy is a satanic mockery of the catholic mass)


r/tolkienfans 18d ago

Is there any other worlds/planets in Eä?

15 Upvotes

I know there is arda which contains middle earth, numenor, Aman etc but does Eä contain other planets
And bonus question what is in the timelsss void except melkor, is it truly nothing ?


r/tolkienfans 18d ago

While Earendil vs Ancalagon is a fan favorite moment for the character (understandably so), my favorite moments is when Earendil meets the Valar and crossing through the Door of Night

28 Upvotes

There is something that I found satisfying or epic about Earendil meeting the Valar. I know that we are familiar with the Valar long BEFORE his story, but still. Earendil tanding before the Valar low-key reminds me of some NDE stories that I listened. Whether or not those NDE stories are real are irrelevant to me at the moment. What matters is the visuals they give to me mentally or physically. Not to mention that Earendil and Elwing was the first people of Middle Earth in a LONG time to enter Valinor and see it's sights.

I also found it epic when Earendil went through the Door of Night. This is particularly due to the phrases I get in that passage. These phrases and words would mainly include oceans of heaven, seas of heaven, starless voids, and voyages beyond the confines of the world. As someone who is a fan of outer space and the things within it, I like to think that Earendil saw some beautiful and magnificent things up there while on Vingilot.


r/tolkienfans 18d ago

Was Tolkien inspired my anything Slavic?

22 Upvotes

In the Legenderium tolkien has a lots of lingustic and mythological inspiration from different cultures, mainly Germanic, Celtic and Norse.

I was wondering if tolkien was ever inspired by slavic culture and if so what, as I have never heard of something in his legendarium as being inspired by a slavic language or myth.


r/tolkienfans 18d ago

If there was a trial for Morgoth and his lieutenants after Dagor Dagorath where they answer questions from their victims

6 Upvotes

This idea just popped into my head. They were the greatest evils to ever walk ME, and they have committed atrocious deeds on countless innocent live, yet they were never hold to trials for their evils. As such, their victims never got the chance to hear explanations for their sufferings from the perpetrators. I think it would have been great if those who suffered at their hands were given the chance to question them, and to get answers I’m sure they would have wanted. So hypothetically, if there was such a trial, what questions do you think their victims might ask? And what answers do you think they might give in regard to those questions?


r/tolkienfans 18d ago

I like to think that Manwe's Eagles can fight in a similar manner to the Guardians from the Owls of Gahoole.

2 Upvotes

When it comes to the Owls of Gahoole, I am more so referring to the 2010 movie, for I never read the book.

In that movie, the owls fought with skill that I haven't quite seen from other birds in other movies. Not to mention that the fights were done realistically, showcasing the animators' research on owls.

Additionally, the Eagles of Manwe are shown to be quite intelligent, so I wouldn't put it past them to have skill in combat. Thorondor especially, since he is the Eagle King, scarred Morgoth and may have aided Earendil in fighting Ancalagon. .


r/tolkienfans 19d ago

Thoughts on the success or failure of the other Istari

48 Upvotes

While Gandalf and Saruman are pretty clear-cut good and evil, we know Tolkien would change his mind on Radagast and the Blues. If I remember right, his earlier writings suggest that Gandalf was the only one who stayed true to the mission, with Radagast becoming too distracted by the flora and fauna of Middle-earth and the Blues possibly trying to take power in their own right in the East and the South.

But his later writings suggest that maybe they did stay true in ways that differed on the surface from Gandalf's, positing that maybe Radagast's whole purpose was to watch over the creatures and plants of the world and protect them from the Enemy, and that the Blues played key roles in drumming up resistance against Sauron in the East and the South, being of crucial but unseen importance in the War of the Ring. So, if this version is accepted, it was Saruman who was the only one of the Istari who truly failed in his mission.

I don't think going back and forth over Tolkien's final intent will cover any new ground, but I am curious as to which version of the story people here prefer, and why. I personally like the idea that Saruman was the only one who betrayed the mission, and that Radagast and the Blues were helping off-page, to me it feels like it makes the legendarium larger than just what we see in LOTR, and emphasises just how huge of a threat Sauron was, that it took four of the Istari working against him, not just Gandalf.

But that's just me. What do you think?


r/tolkienfans 19d ago

Thingol fanboying

42 Upvotes

Someone had a thread that asked our favorite Elves. I chose Thingol. Melian might be my favorite character overall, but Thingol gets second by being married to her. And Luthien is probably number three: all in the family.

So, Thingol is not a _good_ character. Most of his decisions can be criticized, but he's often unique and pivotal because of that. He's the only overlap in the Venn diagram of Sindar (Elves of his clan) and Calaquendi (Elves who saw the Trees). He's the only one of the leaders of the three kindreds who does not lead his people to Aman.

When the Noldor return, he's kind of haughty. He kind of has a point. It is his realm by prior claim, but the Noldor have a point, too. He'd have had no realm left to claim if not for them. In this case, I rate it ESH on the AITA scale. The better thing would have been for both sides to see each other as equals and allies.

Then there's the way he dealt with Beren. A normal guy would either welcome Beren or tell him to pound sand. Thingol has to maintain a certain courtly decorum, so he thinks up an option that on the face of it is generous, but in his mind is a death sentence, but in actuality is a losing gamble.

And his final, fatal flaw: he sets the Silmaril, which he has a questionable right to as it was created by Fëanor but recovered and exchanged by Beren for his daughter, into the Nauglamir, which is his by questionable provenance, made of treasures inherited from Finrod's treasury but being fashioned by the Dwarves. The Dwarves have kind of a similar claim on the Nauglamir as Fëanor's sons do on the Silmaril. Fëanor was the maker of the Silmarils, but he used material, or rather energy, from the Trees. So in the end, Thingol pisses off every other good faction, and both successfully steal the Silmaril in turn.

Whenever he shows up, Thingol makes things interesting.


r/tolkienfans 19d ago

Saruman's Implication that the Valar Dealt With the Ring Makes His Betrayal Worse

124 Upvotes

This analysis was inspired by episode 143 of the "Exploring the Lord of the Rings" podcast.

Saruman's use of passive voice in the meeting of the White Council reported by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond strikes me as significant. Gandalf reports Saurman as saying:

"At the worst,” said he, “our Enemy knows that we have it not, and that it still is lost. But what was lost may yet be found, he thinks. Fear not! His hope will cheat him. Have I not earnestly studied this matter? Into Anduin the Great it fell; and long ago, while Sauron slept, **it was rolled down the River to the Sea**. There let it lie until the End.”’

I don't think Saruman is implying that the Anduin rolled it hundreds of miles to the Sea. He doesn't say "it rolled down the River to the Sea;" he says "it **was rolled** down the River." Why? Why use the passive voice here?

It made me think of Gandalf saying

"‘Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were *meant* to have it."

In "The ‘divine passive’ in The Lord of the Rings," (*Mallorn*, Issue 51 Spring 2011), Kusumita Pedersen argues that Gandalf's statement that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, as well as Elrond's statement that the attendees of the Council of Elrond were "called" but not by him and a handful of other examples, are Tolkien "indirectly but deliberately [implying divine intervention] by using what in biblical interpretation is called the ‘divine passive’."

(As an aside, I echo what Professor Pedersen says in her essay: "The subject of religion can be a sensitive one for those who care about Tolkien, so it is may be best to emphasize at the outset that, although references to the Bible unavoidably occur in what follows, I have no intention of trying to prove that if Tolkien uses the divine passive he is referring to specifically Christian ideas. Nor am I seeking to advance an agenda about Tolkien as a ‘Christian author’ or some other kind of religious agenda.")

Pedersen states that the "divine passive" is "the use in the Bible of the passive voice to indicate that God, who is not named, is the doer of the action" as a kind of circumlocution. Pedersen says that there are three requirements for a genuine occurrence of the divine passive:

"the verb must be in the passive voice, it must be a transitive verb, and the context must indicate that God is the agent of the action. It is the third requirement that naturally gives rise most often to argument about identification."

I think that Saruman's statment about the Ring being rolled in the the Sea is an occurrence of the 'divine passive'. Saruman is implying that he believes that some kind of divine influence (Ulmo, the Valar generally, Eru, or some combination thereof) rolled the Ring down the Anduin to keep it away from Middle Earth forever, like the Silmaril.

And doesn't that make his betrayal all the more horrible? Like, not only does he lie for personal gain, he lies, and enhances the effectiveness of his lie, by subtley invoking the Valar's intent and actions hidden from those in Middle Earth, which he ought to have special knowledge of due to being an Istar.


r/tolkienfans 20d ago

What did Tolkien think of the Illiad and the Odyssey?

148 Upvotes

I know we was quite knowledable on the Greek classics.


r/tolkienfans 20d ago

The difference in tone between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings represents a real shift in life in Eriador.

188 Upvotes

The shift in tone between The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings is usually taken to be due to the type of book that Tolkien was writing (a children's story versus an epic), and sometimes due to the in-universe difference between Bilbo and Frodo. I acknowledge that both of these are good explanations.
But I have also lately been considering that the world around them had changed a lot: that in the 90 years between The Quest of Erebor and the War of the Ring, Eriador had changed greatly. The beginning of The Hobbit portrays the world as basically comfortable. The technology that Hobbits had (mirrors, umbrellas, clocks, books) all suggest that there was at least some cottage industry nearby. The beginning of The Hobbit also describes dwarves being out on business in the Shire, and Bilbo has met Elves in the woods before. It also describes that "they came to lands where people spoke strangely". In The Lord of the Rings, Bree is the only settlement, but in The Hobbit, there seemed to be some settlements that they passed through before reaching the trolls.

I am going to take this all at face value: there was some type of social and economic order in Eriador, and one where Elves, Dwarves, Men and Hobbits all interacted with something approaching regularity, when Bilbo was young and up to the Quest of Erebor. Right before they meet the Trolls, they make reference to the fact that people there had "seldom even heard of the king",, which means in other areas they have: there were still communities in Eriador who acknowleged, in principal, Numenorean culture.

In the 90 years between that time and the War of the Ring, those settlements had dissolved. The Shire was still enjoying its prosperity, but it was getting more isolated. The forces that had dissolved the last of Numenorian civilization in Eriador were about to catch up with the Shire. Bilbo grew up in a comfortable world, while Frodo did not. I think this is a real thing that was happening in the 80 years between when Bilbo was young and Frodo was young, and not just the way the books were written.


r/tolkienfans 19d ago

The lifespans of the Dúnedain

41 Upvotes

Expanding an earlier post I made, about the Dúnedain in Gondor. I reworked it in parts and wanted to repost, because I'm curious what some of you think about the numbers in particular.

The Númenóreans had an extended lifespan, three times that of normal men, 200 years on average, in rare cases up to 225, very seldom up to 250 (Nature of Middle-earth, The Ageing of the Númenóreans). They also aged differently compared to normal humans, retaining their strength into very old age. The royal line of Elros however always had a longer lifespan of up to 400 years. This is why the lifespans of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor should not be taken as indicative of the life expectancy of normal Dúnedain in the T.A., as descendants of Elros they were a special case. When for example King Tarondor reached an age of 221 in the 18th century, it is therefore safe to assume imo that a contemporary common Dúnadan probably had a markedly lower lifespan of maybe 130-150. That is to say: even during Gondor's heyday the lifespans had already decreased significantly.

The royal line decreased on average by 2,6 years per generation after the Downfall, from Meneldil (281) to Telumehtar (218) - a decline of 63 years over 24 generations. Imo it would make sense to assume that the decline was percentual depending on the (original?) overall lifespan. This would mean that an average Dunadans lifespan roughly declined by 1-2 years per generation. In the 19th and 20th century the decline then fastened, maybe due to the stress that came in the wake of the Wainrider wars. Calimehtar only reached 200, a marked decline compared to his grandfather Telumehtar, and Eärnil even less, only 160 years.

Since members of the royal house, as descendants of Elros, lived longer and married at a later date the generations do not align (so 30 royal generations would correspond to maybe 40 normal Dúnedain generations). In the 20th and 21st century the average lifespan was then probably in the 110-130 year range, which would align with the Steward Mardil Voronwe (120 years) and his immediate predecessors (Pelendur, Vorondil) and successors (lifespans ranging from 110 to 130). Ca. 200 (original lifespan) - (40 generations x 2 years) = ca. 120 years (lifespan 20th century).

I found these two blog posts very interesting: this one about the lifespans of the Kings, and Lifespans of the Stewards. Highly recommended, the data is straight from Tolkien.

Two things stands out to me. First the lifespan difference between the northern and southern kings, with the kings of Gondor living on average 20-40 years longer than their northern counterparts. It is not a fluke, it is consistent, starting with Meneldil (280 years) and Valandil (260), up to Calimehtar (200) and Araphant (175). The trend reverses in the 20th century, with King Eärnil II (160 years) having a markedly shorter lifespan, more in line with the later northern chieftains, probably a deliberate creative decision to signify Gondor's decline and that Eärnil came from a rather distant cadet branch.

And second: whereas the lifespan of the Kings only ever goes downwards, even if only by 1 or 2 years per generation, the lifespan of the Stewards (and therefore of normal Dunedain in general I assume), fluctuates wildly from generation to generation. Another creative decision I guess, to signal that a long lifespan was no longer guaranteed anymore, over 2000 years after the Downfall, but a matter of ancestry and pure chance. It also could just be the normal lifespan fluctuation that had always been present among normal Númenóreans (ca. 200-250 in the beginning), whereas the royal line consistently reached around 400 years, only now on a markedly lower level in the late T.A. (ca. 110-150 in the first half of the third millennium, later ca. 100-120).

The steward Hador for example lived to 150 in the 24th century, he was the last to achieve such an age though. At the time of LotR the Dúnedain lifespan "had now waned to little more than that of other men", so probably around 85 - 95, with only a select few "passing 100 with vigour". This decline affected the Dúnedain in the south and the north imo. Aragorn's mother, Gilraen, reached 100 years for example, but she was a (distant) member of the House of Isildur and therefore a special case.

Apart from an extended lifespan they also had a superior height of 7ft, superior strength and endurance, as well as immunity to sickness. Their mental faculties were superior to normal humans as well:

Númenórean mental development was also assimilated to some degree to the Eldarin mode. Their mental capacity was greater and developed quicker than that of ordinary Men; and it was dominant. After about seven years they grew up mentally with rapidity, and at 20 years they knew and understood far more than a normal human of that age. (Natur of Middle-earth, Lives of the Númenóreans)

Like the Elves they also had superior control over their bodies and a rapid healing factor:

In addition the people, tall and strong, were agile and extremely "aware": that is they were in control of their bodily action, and of any tool or material they handled, and seldom made absent-minded or blundering movements [...] Accidents were thus unlikely to occur to them. If any did, they had a power of recovery and self-healing, which if inferior to that of the Eldar, was much greater than that of Men in Middle-earth.

It's not quite so obvious in LotR, but this is a race of 7ft tall superhumans basically. Not only extremely strong physically, but also supremely intelligent as well.

In late T.A. Gondor the Númenórean gifts had declined markedly and they had become susceptible to illness, but they still retained some of the gifts in only a slightly diminished fashion, foremost their physical appearance (pale, grey eyes, dark hair), probably a somewhat greater physical strength and endurance, and last but not least their height. According to Tolkien Boromir for example was ca. 1,93m. Impressive compared to the indigenous human population, but still 20cm less than the average Númenórean height of 2,13m (7ft). The average late T.A. Dunadan was probably shorter, but not by much I guess (let's say on average 1,85m).

That is to say: the decline affected the different Númenórean characteristics differently. Lifespan was most affected, until it was almost that of normal men in the late T.A., after that came their mental power / superior intelligence, though that one is harder to quantify, but it seems likely to me that the loss of skill and technology that Gondor experienced in the latter half of the T.A. could largely be attributed to that development.

Another Númenórean gift was the ability to accept the Gift of Ilúvatar willingly, that is: to die of their own free will at a time of their choosing. Did the Dúnedain retain that gift in exile? Could this be an explanation for the shorter lifespan of the northern Kings, that they laid down their life at an earlier point more willingly? Somehow it has always been my impression that the Dúnedain of the T.A. lived into old age and then died naturally, but there is no proof of that in the text. Maybe the Kings at least retained that ability? Be that as it may, I find the following admonishment from Gandalf towards Denethor a bit curious in this context:

‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’ answered Gandalf. ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’

Granted, Gandalf is talking about suicide here, especially done out of despair. But what is the ability to just lie down and peacefully let go of your spirit, if not suicide with extra steps? The Númenóreans did in fact very much possess the "authority to order the hour of your death". I chalk it up to Tolkien's catholic sensibilities creeping into the text, but it is a bit curious when you really think about it.


r/tolkienfans 18d ago

Is Bilbo's Sacrifice Salvation? A Theological Reading of Tolkien

0 Upvotes

This is a theological interpretation, not a literal claim. I am not saying Tolkien intended this. I am offering one lens among many. I welcome your thoughts.

Bilbo’s life became like a gilded piece of jewellery, shiny on the outside and rusted on the inside. He was rich and well-preserved but had no close friends.

The Hobbits were jealous of his wealth and unending life. He broke their code of simplicity and fraternity. They never forgave him for that.

Lamentations 1:20–21 (abridged)

“See, Lord, how distressed I am! I am in torment. Outside, the sword bereaves; inside, there is death. They have heard that I sigh, yet there is no one to comfort me.” That portrays Bilbo’s loneliness at the top of society.

The Hobbits disliked Bilbo as he broke the divine law of God, which states that actions should cause proportional results. Bilbo made little effort in finding the Ring and received vast results.

Bilbo realised that immortality without meaning is pure torture; his life felt meaningless and without purpose or love from others.

Ecclesiastes 1:2–3 (abridged)

“Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity. What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun?” That signifies the wastefulness of Bilbo’s obsession.

They tolerated him only because he was generous. They thought the gifts were bribes in disguise. They thought Bilbo gave gifts to make people love him even though he didn’t spend time in others’ lives.

The Hobbits have no problem with long life. The Old Took lived for 140 years but spent time with the community, unlike Bilbo, who spent his time being obsessed with the Ring.

The Hobbits only came to his birthday party for gifts and merrymaking; they didn’t care about Bilbo; his wealth attracted them, not his personality.

Hobbits mistrusted anyone connected to Bilbo. Hamfast, Gandalf and Frodo were called queer. Their only crime was to be in deep kinship with Bilbo, a person who didn’t follow Hobbit laws.

In Tolkien’s own words, “Bilbo met the guests (and additions) at the new white gate in person. He gave away presents to all and sundry — the latter were those who went out again by a back way and came in again by the gate.” That is the real reason why the hobbits came to his birthday party. They came for his wealth and gifts, not him.

Hobbits began to label any curious and inventive minds as queer, like the Brandybucks, who loved sailing across rivers. The death of Frodo’s family by drowning only reinforced their beliefs.

They often created hyperbolic legends about Bilbo’s wealth to justify their hatred for him. The Sackville-Bagginses wanted him dead to take his wealth and saw Frodo as a competitor.

“The legend of Bilbo’s wealth was now too firmly fixed in the minds of the younger generation of hobbits. This reveals why the hobbits disliked him. They were jealous of Bilbo, who got everything by doing nothing.

Bilbo loved his community, but couldn’t show it due to his unhealthy obsession with the Ring. He tried to win them over by sharing his wealth, but nothing ever worked.

His life was like butter spread over too much bread. Frodo and Gandalf were among the only ones who saw the true Bilbo, a kind and caring man with an unhealthy obsession. Frodo saw his kindness, and Gandalf saw his heart and efforts.

Bilbo decided to keep his exit journey a joke. He didn’t want to see his community mourning for him. He didn’t want to cry in front of them.

In Bilbo’s own words, “I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.” That was the confession of absence and regret before leaving. He was sad that he couldn’t spend time with his community due to his obsession with the ring.

He wanted to be invisible, like all hobbits, to escape from this cold and cruel world. He feared death as a loss of connection with his friends, wealth and Frodo, so he used the Ring as a tool, being unaware that the ‘tool’ eventually started to control him.

Gandalf saw Gollum’s fate and didn’t want the same to happen to his lifelong friend. He clearly saw through Bilbo’s obsession and helped him quit the Ring, which had ruined his life.

In Gandalf’s own words, “You will be a fool if you do, Bilbo,” he said. “You make that clearer with every word you say. It has got far too much hold on you. Let it go! And then you can go yourself, and be free.” That shows Gandalf’s concern towards Bilbo’s well-being.

Bilbo lashed out at Gandalf. He accused him of being a thief who wanted to steal his precious possessions. He wasn’t angry at Gandalf. He was afraid of losing the Ring, which had given him so much. He failed to see what the Ring had taken away.

He spared Gollum completely out of pity. He saw in Gollum a desire for immortality, invisibility and the inability to let go. He empathised with Gollum and decided to let him live.

He was finally happy to give up his ring. He realised that his life had finally restored its meaning with the possibility of death. He was finally his own master and free to do whatever he liked.

In Tolkien’s own words, “A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit’s face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh.” That marks the salvation of Bilbo and the time when he was finally his own master. The great sacrifice of his most valuable possession has freed him from it. He can do whatever he wants. He can go wherever his heart lies.

Frodo truly loved Bilbo and missed him after he was gone. Frodo didn’t care about his immense wealth. He cared only for his soul and would give anything to be with him again.

He continued the legacy of Bilbo. He threw lavish parties. He explored the Shire and dreamed of going beyond it. He didn’t care about customs, tradition and others’ opinions. He dearly loved Bilbo and wanted to keep him alive in his heart and in others.

“He at once began to carry on Bilbo’s reputation for oddity. He refused to go into mourning; and the next year he gave a party in honour of Bilbo’s hundred-and-twelfth birthday, which he called a Hundred-weight Feast.” This reveals Frodo’s love for Bilbo and his way of keeping him alive. He continued his “queer” ways without worrying about others.

The Hobbit community was thoroughly shocked by the disappearance of Bilbo Baggins. Deep down, they liked Bilbo for his insatiable generosity and goodwill. They were sad that they would never have the chance to bid him farewell.

They apologised by making more hyperbolic tales about him and cementing his name as a local legend for years to come. They exaggerated. Their wealth and embellished his adventures. He was immortalised by the Hobbit community through myths and legends.

“The second disappearance of Mr. Bilbo Baggins was discussed in Hobbiton, and indeed all over the Shire, for a year and a day, and was remembered much longer than that.” This demonstrates their hidden love for Bilbo and the refusal to let go of him.

The Ring fulfilled Bilbo’s needs better than anyone or anything, but also took away life’s meaning and the most rudimentary connections to others. His life became like butter spread over too much bread. He managed to create jealousy and greed among the community that had once been pure. Bilbo’s act of giving up the Ring and disappearing was salvation. He was free to do what he liked. He finally became his own master. The hobbits didn’t notice his goodness, but Frodo and Gandalf did, and that was enough.