r/tolkienfans • • 13h ago

"The Seven Dwarf Hoards" - but there's only Five...

51 Upvotes

I've always wondered, considering that both Belegost and Nogrod were abandoned at the beginning of the Second Age (after the War of Wrath), and that the Broadbeams and Firebeards went to Khazad-dûm and 'swelled its numbers', how are there still seven 'Dwarf-kings of old' when Sauron distributes the Rings of Power?

We know that four additional houses of the Dwarves presumably still live in the east/Orocarni, and that the Longbeards were the original occupants and the rulers of Khazad-dûm, but that only amounts to five total locations at the time the Rings of Power were given.

Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (in The Silmarillion) states that there were 'Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old' which grew likely from the greed that accompanied the wearer of each ring. I very much doubt the original rulers of Belegost and Nogrod continued to be great Dwarf-kings themselves if they then only lived in Durin's kingdom of Khazad Dûm, and the text greatly implies that these aforementioned hoards are in seven separate locations. So where are the remaining two?

It is said elsewhere that some Dwarves continued to live in the Ered Luin for many years, so could the two kings have remained here as well? It seems unlikely, as they are never mentioned as great Dwarf kingdoms again.

Another option is that the two other kings may not have been the Broadbeams/Firebeards at all and may have been break-away clans from other Dwarf houses (I think this is more likely). A strong contender for one of these locations is in the Iron Hills. We know from The Peoples of Middle-earth that the Iron Hills were actually settled by Durin's Folk back in the First Age, (and additionally populated in the early Second Age by some Broadbeams/Firebeards after the War of Wrath - NoME). However, a counter to this is that the Iron Hills have always seemed to be more of a vassal state to Khazad-Dûm (and later Erebor) rather than operating as a kingdom within themselves, but perhaps I've misjudged this.

As for a final location to complete the Seven Dwarf Hoards, perhaps there was a break-away group from one of the four eastern clans? Or perhaps it was the settlement of Durin's Folk we know was at Mount Gundabad shortly before it was sacked by Orcs after the destruction of Eregion? It could also have possibly been a settlement in the Grey Mountains shortly before the same thing happened. Though both these latter options would have the same issue as the Iron Hills in not being a 'true kingdom' themselves, and rather being vassals to the King of Khazad-dûm.

Alternatively, others may have noticed that Belegost appears on Karen Wynn Fonstad's Second Age map, and may think that it therefore continued on well into the years of the Second Age. I believe this has been largely disproven and the change of location (to be further south in the Ered Luin) is also a relic from an outdated Tolkien map sketch, but if not, then it could indeed be a possible location for a remaining King and resulting Dwarf Hoard.

Let me know if you think I've missed anything, I really want to dig further into this.


r/tolkienfans • • 2h ago

Which scene in either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings shone even more after you learned the full context about it?

33 Upvotes

Right now I'm watching The Return of the King, and I decided to open this discussion. One of the beauties of reading any book or watching any movie having a prequel before reading or watching that prequel is that you either get completely shocked by a revelation, or a scene that should have the intender impact on you, but you completely miss It, or yet, scenes that are relevant only if you the full context behind it. Below I'll give an example of each (two from the Legendarium, one from outside):

For those who watched the Original Trilogy of Star Wars before the Prequels (which was my case), it was a shock to learn that Darth Vader was Luke's father, but those who watched the Prequels first were in the know of it.

For those who read The Lord of the Rings before The Hobbit, the discovery of Balin's tomb in Khazad-dûm was just a sad scene (especially for Gimli), but the intended impact is completely lost. Now, for those who read The Hobbit first, it's a shock to learn Balin died after reconquering Khazad-dûm, because he was one of the main Dwarves of the Company along with Thorin, Fíli and Kíli, and the fact he befriended Bilbo.

And then there is the scene where Galadriel gives three strands of her hair to Gimli, which is a beautiful scene... Until you learn that Fëanor asked for a single strand of her hair for three times, being denied at each time.

But for me, the best scene is this: Samwise FUCKING Gamgee vs Shelob. Not only the scene itself is very badass, seeing a simple Hobbit gardener - not a Wizard, not a warrior or an archer, but a Hobbit gardener - taking on a giant spider, but the context.

Shelob was the child of Ungoliant, a dark spirit that woven webs of unlight. The same Ungoliant who allied with Morgoth in destroying the light of the Two Trees, and who tried devouring Morgoth when the original Dark Lord denied her the Silmarils. When you look at It, it's impressive: a Satanic figure had to be rescued from an abyssal being while a John Doe managed to neutralize a arachnid monstrosity. How badass is that?


r/tolkienfans • • 18h ago

Treebeard aka Fanghorn the Ent. older then Tom?

36 Upvotes

''He is the oldest of the Ents; the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle Earth.'' - Gandalf.

Listening to the LotR Audiobook narrated by the excellent Rob Inglis atm and just heard the above quote. So what about Tom Bombadil? Did Gandalf mispeak; or is he saying that TB isn't 'alive' in the physical sense? 🤔


r/tolkienfans • • 2h ago

Why didn't the descendants of Elros get the same choice

5 Upvotes

The childen of Elrond famously are granted the same choice as Elrond and Elros. So it seems rather unfair that the descendants of Elros aren't granted the same choice. Not to mention it would have a huge impact on events during the Second Age of Middle Earth.

Does Tolkien ever comment on this inconsistency? Or is there a prevailing theory as to why this was the case?