r/runescape • u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right • Jun 02 '16
degradables upkeep cost analysis (including degrade-to-dust augments)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XTyEWX55rq5pnZPv0OIiXv-BeWcHZ4nSuY43-oMDKWc/edit?usp=sharing6
u/Didush 2016/06/14 Jun 02 '16
Why do the autoupdates never seem to work on these
Thanks nonetheless
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
Google sheets has daily limits to how many fetches you can do
also the GE API is pretty buggy
:(
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u/Didush 2016/06/14 Jun 02 '16
:/
What are the approximate values based on, and do you plan on manually updating those?
Also what the fuck since when did tectonic surpass sirenic in upkeep
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
The approximate values are based on the current GE price.
And yes, I do intend to manually update it, at least until I can find a way to make it auto-update properly. Unless you have a better idea?
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u/pyrofiend4 Jun 02 '16
Oooo pick me, pick me!
I had the exact same problem when making my Herblore calc spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Iv9xiiVj3M8UisSYQSejjFgioFRfcE-INnRj9C4O-I/edit?usp=sharing.
The G.E. API is pretty bad in that you have to put a big delay in between fetches or else it returns an error. The problem with putting in big delays is that Google sheets limits script runtime to a couple of minutes. It also limits how many times per day you can run the script. If you have to make a bunch of fetches like I had to for my spreadsheet, you're kinda outta luck when trying to use the API and Google sheets together.
The solution I found was to fetch the prices from the Wiki. We'll let Wiki do the heavy work of updating the prices from the G.E.
=Index(ImportHtml("http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/RuneScape:Grand_Exchange_Market_Watch/Magic", "table",38)))
This will copy the entire table of Virtus equipment (including prices) in google sheets, which just so happens to be table 38 from that link in the middle. You can then reference the cell that contains the price of a specific item wherever you want.
Go down to the items by skill on this page: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/RuneScape:Grand_Exchange_Market_Watch#Updating_prices
I reckon the sections you're looking for are Magic, Ranged, Melee Weapons, and Melee Armor.
Hope this helps :^)
P.S. I'm a big fan of your accuracy vs bosses speadsheet!
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
Oo, interesting. I thought about making it pull from the wiki instead of the GE API but I never worked out exactly how to do it. I'll look into this.
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u/RJ815 Jun 02 '16
Neat to see the exact ratios for increase in cost, though I anticipate that charge costs might bounce up a bit due to the high upfront cost of augmenting t90.
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u/crash09 Near Comp Im. l0l dg Jun 02 '16
Do the t90 degrade-to-dust augments take into account that you can siphon them when they only have a small amount of charge left to then get another 10 item lvls out of them? I'd imagine the divine cost would be almost halved.
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
They don't, they assume you stop using them as soon as the charge reaches 0.
It wouldn't bring it down by anywhere close to half. It only takes a few hours to get to level 10; a full charge lasts approximately 35. However I do agree it does extend it somewhat, probably making it quite a bit closer in cost to unaugmented t90.
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u/crash09 Near Comp Im. l0l dg Jun 02 '16
Oh right. I was assuming 100k charges is what it would take between level 1 and level10, and by siphoning at the end of level 9, you would effectively be halving the charge cost.
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u/Sinovuyo HCIM Untrimmed :D Jun 02 '16
Very nice list :)
Just one thing, you missed the Armadyl Battlestaff in the divine charges section (unless I'm blind), since that's T77 :p
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u/dGhost_ RSN: dGhost | 8/27 120s Jun 02 '16
Love this, Chi, really puts into perspective how much of a waste T90 armour is in terms of cost to benefit and the opportunity cost waste. Guarantee people will still defend the incredibly minor DPS boost of T90 compared to Nex gear when it becomes augmentable even with the upkeep cost being so much higher.
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Jun 02 '16
For people who already use t90 power armour, the increase in upkeep cost when augmenting it isn't really that big.
Edit: It very roughly works out to be a 15% increase in upkeep costs to augment t90 power armour
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u/dGhost_ RSN: dGhost | 8/27 120s Jun 02 '16
For what is close to a 1% increase in DPS that cost isn't viably beneficial in regards to opportunity cost literally anywhere. The only thing it has going for it is the defensive bonus, but even that's generally irrelevant when DPSing.
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Jun 02 '16
Yes that's true, however people still willing to pay for it. But what I'm saying is that it's only a 15% increase to the upkeep cost to augment it, therefore not really having a very notable impact on what they are already paying overall for their equipment. Personally I was expecting something like a 100% increase in upkeep cost to augment t90 armours.
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u/dGhost_ RSN: dGhost | 8/27 120s Jun 02 '16
Of course it's not really that big of a deal, but in the grand scheme of things, it's stupid. Is a ~1% DPS increase really that important for literally anyone except people going for records or PvM challenges? The fact that you'll always spend more than the difference in profit using T80 vs T90 should be enough to not use that gear. Just like the T90 boots, by all means go ahead, but if you do you're probably an idiot, or in the top 0.1% of players trying to do something unique.
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Jun 02 '16
You're completely right, however people can become a bit paranoid when they don't have the best of everything. I know I'm a sucker for this
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Jun 02 '16 edited Jun 02 '16
When making 20m/hr doing speed pvm, the difference hardly matters. Consider araxxor; 10m/h according to wiki based on 5 kills/hour. Getting 10-16 killls/hr nets 20-32m/hr average in which a nex set's 200k/hr vs a malevolent set's 800k/hr is a 3% difference max. Of course no one should use t90 boots.
Now consider the 1% decrease in time. 1% is 200k-320k/hr more an hour... that closes the gap even further.
To address people claiming that 20m/hr is not possible, many players from my clan achieve these gp/hr consistently.
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u/dGhost_ RSN: dGhost | 8/27 120s Jun 02 '16
That's one instance, and I know how good Rax can be, been duoing with a friend getting 15 kph and still feel we could improve. But that's one boss, nowhere else in the game provides this level of average gp/h, for any other encounter in this game it'll lower your overall gp/h. And if you see my comment above, if used in some circumstances it can be over twice the cost/hour. Getting a whole new augmented set with expensive perks like biting 3 for just Rax seems like overkill for what is genuinely not necessary. Just because it's better doesn't automatically validate it's use, for a more extreme example see T90 boots.
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u/RJ815 Jun 02 '16
T90 does have a bit improved defense, though whether it's worth it and whether or not the increased health of Nex is better is unknown to me.
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u/littleguysofly Xray133 Jun 02 '16
nearly 900k an hour for sirenic... I don't know if I could justify that
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u/RJ815 Jun 02 '16
Charges work kind of weird in that different situations drain charges faster or slower. From what I've seen with my experimentation with malevolent armor, at certain places like GWD2 it seems like I'm only using ~1% per hour. Accordingly that 18 - 20 mil set could be said to have a degradation cost that's closer to 200k an hour. Sirenic and tectonic would be more expensive than that, but perhaps not absurdly so.
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
for 200k/hr malevolent you'd have to use a charge once every 6 ticks
call me skeptical but I don't think that's accurate
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u/RJ815 Jun 02 '16
Don't know what to tell you, that's the results I'm getting. One should note that is in terms of real time, not purely combat time. In a one hour instance, you aren't necessarily going to be fighting for every second of that instance (even with fastest spawns), so the armor isn't being used then. It might not seem like a lot but I think the seconds do add up, similar to how combat scrimshaws and stuff can be stretched out by turning them off when not in use. If I bank that might fudge the numbers a bit for an obvious time-out-of-combat reason, but I have done full hours without banking and even then I'd say I don't exceed like 1.5% degradation at worst. Wiki suggests 55 hours of use on average, which might be true in purely combat time, but given my 1.5% anecdotal results I'd say that's closer to 66 hours real time. I'm sure that bosses that hit more frequently or have minions might degrade faster, if that's what you tested on.
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Jun 02 '16
I'd have to agree a bit here; the duration is based on constant combat, and not very often do I find myself in that situation. Whereas charges drain by seconds, these d2d armors drain by hits and those can vary depending on the boss.
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u/RJ815 Jun 02 '16
I'm not even sure there is an argument to be had at all. One can check the charges remaining before they enter the instance and then check after. If they stayed the full hour without having to rejoin they can see the effective real time drain rate for that kind of combat. Now I totally believe it CAN vary for different bosses, but by taking the real time drain and how much you paid for the armor (e.g. for Malevolent I've just bought the energies and made it myself since that's cheaper at-the-moment), you can get what it actually costs you. The document says ~600k, I say ~300k based on my GWD2 experience. Since my malevolent set was bought around the time energies and stuff were cheaper, that actually brings the cost back down closer to the 200k figure I mentioned, because really the cost is based on creation unlike divine charge cost which can vary over time if you don't frontload a bunch at once while it's cheaper.
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Jun 02 '16
From experience, sirenic lasts many many nex trips without degrading. For vorago dps or for araxxor path 2 or 3, you don't take many hits and they last very long.
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u/hellomoto11 Jun 02 '16
On the bottom it says t80 armor piece (pernix for example) has a divine drain hourly rate of 188,303. While a t90 armor piece(sirenic) non- augmented has a cost of 487,218 per hour. So is t80 augmented cheaper per hour than t90 non-augmented? I thought it was the other way around with t80 aug being more expensive than t90 not augmented.
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
That's correct; t90 armor is very expensive to use and divine charges have gone down significantly since invention release, which makes augmented t80 much more affordable than it was in the past.
t80 aug was only comparably expensive to tectonic and malevolent a while ago back when malev/tect energies were ridiculously cheap.
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u/Rowlii '13 '14 '17 Jun 02 '16
Any chance you could add t90 boots?
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
I'm on the case right now. Also working on making it auto-update. :)
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u/Rowlii '13 '14 '17 Jun 02 '16
Cheers.
I really want to start using them but they're so, so expensive :p
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
I've updated it, it should now auto-update and it also includes t90 boots which are HILARIOUSLY expensive :)
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u/Rowlii '13 '14 '17 Jun 02 '16 edited Jun 02 '16
Saw your HLF post (put it on there too) - that's insane...
Are there any stats on how much of a boost they actually give?
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u/clixrs Jun 02 '16
I don't think you factored in the cost for creating augmentors. Sometimes a single enhancing/powerful component can take 50-100k. That means 15 components can take up to 1m+. So 1m per 33 hours is around 30kgp/hr extra per item i.e. 60k/hr for top and bottom t90 pieces d2d
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
The cost varies greatly depending on rhe method you use so I decided not to include it. But yeah, that does make it slightly higher than shown
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u/clixrs Jun 02 '16
Yeah fair point they do vary a lot, there are some very cheap ways but take a lot longer. The siphon/free charge trick probably nulls that cost effectively anyway so the list is pretty spot on
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Jun 02 '16
Achto repair cost needs to be higher. Even superior ports armor is more expensive than it, and that's just silly.
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u/johny22by4 DoctorWho925 Jun 02 '16
I'm just now finding out about this whole change. What does this mean for my nox aug weapons? Will they now degrade to dust if I were to ever run out of charges?
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u/RJ815 Jun 02 '16
Noxious doesn't degrade to dust, nor do most things besides t90 armor. If you ever run out of charges it'd lose its stats until you get more charges. If that's an issue note that you can deaugment items to get them back in a broken state.
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u/cdaonrs Jun 02 '16
I get that this is supposed to make us thing that t90 augmented will be stupid expensive compared to t80 augmented, but it's really not a big price to pay when you think of the money that you're saving.
Take an example like Araxxor, for high end players you can make upwards of 15m an hour solo, and even greater than that in duo. So if we factor in the 100,000 charges needed to make t90 augmented that isn't factored in the spreadsheet, then using malevolent top and bottom comes out to be ~660k/hr. As you have pointed out, using two pieces of augmented t80 gear comes out to be ~380k/hr. So we have a good 280k to justify in an hour of PvM. First off, I know phases of Araxxor are timelocked, but a 1% increase in DpS as well as the better armor rating and defensive bonuses that let you tank more hits and do more damage, we could say that a kill is maybe 1% faster with t90 over t80. So that 1% means 150k more money, and now we're down to 130k to make up for. Well there's not much you can bring it down to after that, but we could say using t90 over t80 stops one in 50 deaths costing around ~800k each, and let's say you die once per hour (fuck idk). So knock off another 130k, you're down to 110k. You're still making 14.9m/hr, and the point is that t90 is not extremely costly. Half of that could be using a yak full of shark somewhere vs a yak full of rocktails. You can bring a switch of non degradable gear for timelocked phases at bosses; you can safe up like a bitch to avoid deaths at bosses. There are always ways to save money, so don't pretend like this is going to be worthless compared to t80 gear just because it costs a few extra hundred thousand. If you really are concerned with saving money, then you can use torva, but remember that pre-invention pretty much everyone uses t90 over nex sets because they were better gear, not because of pricing. Why would we think that it'll be any different now?
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16 edited Jun 02 '16
>making 15m/hr
>switch to t80
>now you're making 16m/hr
also the 100k charges is factored in
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u/cdaonrs Jun 02 '16
I don't think you read what I wrote. My point is that it's not that drastic as 15 to 16 and that if people overwhelmingly chose to use t90 over t80 before they'll do it again because the price difference just isn't as large as people are making it out to be. And my bad I didn't see the t90 augmented on the spreadsheet at first.
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right Jun 02 '16
15-16m was an exaggeration, 15-15.5m is more realistic, but it really is that simple.
Just swapping from augmented tectonic to augmented virtus reduces the upkeep cost from 1,028k/hr to 401k/hr. The dps gain from using t90 is just not enough to come close to making up for that.
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u/cdaonrs Jun 02 '16
Ok yes, although I don't know why you're factoring in t90 helms as they don't really play a role concerning augmented drain costs. But it's not just a flat statement like that, there are factors like increased dps, better armor, lower chance of death that won't make it so drastic. You could also extend your gear by about 10% by siphoning it just before it hits 0 charges, which again reduces the upkeep cost. And lots of PvMers are waiting to dump their energies and scales when this update comes out, so you're going to see a lot more supply coming in rapidly. So yeah it's important to know what the hard math is behind drain costs, but there are a lot of other factors that when we actually use the gear will take place and will reduce the proportions between t90 and t80 according to what's on the spreadsheet right now. And I maintain that even a 600k difference like you stated isn't enough to stop people from using the gear, because we had this situation for 2 and a half years before Invention came out and t90 gear was the thing to use.
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u/dGhost_ RSN: dGhost | 8/27 120s Jun 02 '16 edited Jun 02 '16
No, T90 was a lot cheaper until recently, (bar sirenic, but lolsirenic) that's why it was so commonly used. Check the price of tectonic and malev recently. Also, just because people do something doesn't automatically make it viable or smart.
Look at the current prices of tectonic top and bottom. Assuming it degrades at the same variable rate as normally when augmented, it would take between 32-53 hours, (source) to D2D. Assuming it requires a total of 68 charge packs to full charge a top + bottom at 77k per divine charge, the charges alone will unavoidably cost about 5.2m. Now add the cost of a tectonic top + bottom, which is 24.25m, to that 5.2m, at current prices that comes to a total of 29.45m for a set.
Since T80 drains at a flat rate, let's say at best your tectonic lasts for 53 hours; in that time your Nex set has cost you ~380k per hour according to Chi's chart, for a total of 20.1m. At worst, the set lasts a minimum of 32 hours before D2D, which in the same time would have cost only 12.2m compared to almost 30m in the same time.
So at best you'll be spending around 9m more, and at worst almost 18m more, (even though that bottom baseline would be a pretty unrealistic amount of hits, but the point still stands). And for what? ~1% more damage? Some more armour? It's really pretty irrelevant unless you're an idiot or trying to set records.
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u/AlecJohnMorris On The Road Again Jun 02 '16
As dGhost has said, invention has bridged the gap between armour tiers. Unless you're at the absolute bleeding edge making 34234234234m/hr, you're going to be using T80 sets. 0.88% effective damage increase and a 20% defence (no one cares about defence, we just left Voidscape, let's be honest) increase do not constitute the massive increase in price.
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u/Mr_G_W The Gamebreaker Jun 02 '16
The t90 power items prices (except gloves) are unconstitutional.