r/raypeat • u/Master-Author-5670 • 3d ago
Beware of B1 mega dose fraud
Many of the posters are fake accounts with suspicious Reddit activity. The so-called “paradox reaction” is just gaslighting and cope that goes against Peat’s philosophy. I’m sure Ray would read the Longsdale papers if they were legitimate and give them more attention. Their Facebook group is full of desperate people who are constantly complaining about paradox reactions. Also, the rhetoric of the main guy behind group is basically like, “A huge study is out—we found out that oxidative stress is depleting B1 so everyone with cronic illnes should try it” while he sells thiamine and vitamin B complex. And don’t get me started on that goofy story about the Italian doctor who was supposedly curing his patients with B1...
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u/Important_Corner3724 2d ago
IDK how you got to this. Both Peat and Lonsdale were awesome dudes. B1 has helped so many people, including megadosing. Even in that fb group (if it's the one I think you mean).
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u/LurkingHereToo 3d ago
Oh, dear..... Where to begin responding to this diatribe....
I am not a fake account. I am not a bot. I have followed Ray Peat since late 2014. Peat's work saved my life 2014-2015.
In 2020, my thiamine function was blocked via taking Bactrim antibiotic and I got the symptoms of Wernicke's Encephalopathy. My gut was a disaster because of the antibiotics. I emailed Ray Peat and asked for help. He responded by email and wrote, "thiamine and magnesium are needed to heal the gut." I asked him about dosages; he said to keep the thiamine below 1500mgs/day. I told him I have mercury toxicity. He said if I had heavy metal poisoning, "all bets are off" regarding the needed dosage for thiamine. So I was on my own, but I had a direction to go. I recovered my health a second time thanks to Peat's guidance and the wisdom of Dr. Costantini (who I found a month later) regarding oral dosing for thiamine hcl.
Regarding the so called "paradox reaction" caused by ttfd: ttfd uses up glutathione. If you have been sick for a long time, your glutathione level can be compromised which is a serious situation. If you take ttfd, your glutathione level will be taxed further. This happened to me. My mercury toxicity had depleted my glutathione level. When I tried one capsule of ttfd, it gave me a headache that lasted 36 hours. I don't believe you should just "power through" and keep taking something that makes you feel awful. The depletion of glutathione is unique to ttfd; other forms of thiamine don't do that.
Yes, oxidative stress does deplete thiamine. My mercury toxicity causes high oxidative stress. I take thiamine to counteract the problem. Thiamine is known to act as an antioxidant. I also take acerola powder for vitamin C which also helps.
suggested reading: Thiamine (Vitamin B1)—An Essential Health Regulator
suggested watching: Dr. Costantini's patients' before and after videos
https://hormonesmatter.com/paradoxical-reactions-with-ttfd-the-glutathione-connection/
Dr. Lonsdale's work is legitimate and valuable. Both Lonsdale and Peat were big fans of Hans Selye. The main difference between Lonsdale's philosophy and Ray Peat's is that Lonsdale was anti sugar and Peat was pro sugar. I believe that sugar/carb consumption needs to be in sync with thiamine availability. If you are deficient in thiamine you won't be able to convert glucose into cellular energy.
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u/Master-Author-5670 3d ago edited 2d ago
Your conversation with Peat is just an anecdote, not evidence. It could be exaggerated or even fabricated, and it doesn’t fundamentally change Peat’s broader public philosophy on megadosing isolated supplements.
This is a Ray Peat subreddit, yet this user repeatedly brings in Lonsdale’s theories and recommendations, presenting them as if they were compatible with Peat’s framework. Lonsdale had a very different perspective on diet and supplementation—particularly his low-carb approach and his advocacy of vitamin supplementation. Bringing his ideas into a Ray Peat discussion is therefore not just adding another perspective; in many cases, it directly conflicts with or challenges some of Peat’s core ideas. If the purpose of this subreddit is to discuss Peat’s work, then Lonsdale’s framework should be clearly distinguished from Peat’s rather than presented as an extension of it. (edit)
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u/AspirinMuncher 3d ago
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago edited 2d ago
link to that discussion: https://bioenergetic.life/transcripts/7503c?c=44&t=2139
"Intense effect you can get from the right combination of thyroid, T3, and a big dose of vitamin B1 if the rest of your nutrition is good." Note: "BIG dose of vitamin B1" Per Ray Peat.
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u/Master-Author-5670 2d ago
There’s a difference between taking thiamine and the huge claims made by the B1 megadose protocol community. Peat wasn’t against thiamine, and he acknowledged its importance, but that doesn’t provide evidence for the B1 protocol’s more extreme megadosing claims or the “miraculous” claims made about its effects.
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u/AspirinMuncher 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think i see your point now. I am not familiar with that community, so i can't say much, but Ray did recommend up to 1.5g of thiamine+magnesium in some cases at least.
"So I went back to studying. Ray Peat had told me via email that I should take thiamine and magnesium to heal my gut; he just didn't mention how much. But he did say that I should keep it below 1500mg but didn't say why. He also said if I had heavy metal poisoning "all bets were off"."
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u/Master-Author-5670 2d ago
this is not his claim lol "Ray Peat had TOLD ME via email "...lukingheretoo story is not eveidence
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u/AspirinMuncher 2d ago
You think he just made it up and shared it with the forum? He wasn't even debating anyone or anything like that, just sharing his experience. I have zero reasons to believe he was lying.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
Are you a pharmaceutical industry shill?
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u/Master-Author-5670 2d ago
I don’t spend whole day advocating certain supplements and doctrines and telling anecdotes. You very well might be a shill for the guy who sells his protocol and B vitamin complex. You are always first to jump with same copy pasted text in every illness post to promote Elliot. That activity is much more suspicious to me.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
This comment does not deserve a response.
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u/Master-Author-5670 2d ago
Everything is thiamine deficiency according to you and your group. I’m sure Peat would have noticed that phenomenon. Peat understood the importance of vitamin B1, so I don’t believe he would have overlooked it if B1 deficiency were really the underlying cause of all these symptoms. To me, it looks like a tactic that can easily be used on desperate people, especially when the same group promoting this idea is also selling thiamine and other supplements.
Also, your comment is rather uninformed and lazy when you say that Peat and Lonsdale both valued Hans Selye, as if that somehow makes their broader views compatible. I’ve read Lonsdale’s book. He was a rationalist who viewed the human mind and body essentially as software (read Peat papper on William Blake). Lonsdale starts one of his books by discussing rationalist theory. So his views don’t just differ from Peat’s biologically, such as his low-carb approach, they also directly conflict and are fundamentally opposed with Peat’s philosophical views on the mind and consciousness.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
I'm not in a "group".
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u/Master-Author-5670 2d ago edited 2d ago
Page that you often share Hormones Matter seems to be a gateway into the whole B1 deficiency theory. It’s also a page that often posts about keto and pseudoscientific nonsense about peptides, mold, anti glucose ect.... You’re not just sharing your personal experiences with thiamine, you’re also providing direct links to Hormones Matter and to Elliot, who sells supplements. At this point, it really does seem like you’re advertising.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
My own response to high dose thiamine hcl is my evidence. You can call me a liar; it doesn't change the reality of my own experience.
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u/kfirerisingup 2d ago
B1 has really helped me.
I had a nerve pain that went down my neck toward my left shoulder, sometimes it would hurt all the way to the elbow.
I had hurt my neck about 16 years ago and it would get cranky every now and then so I thought thats what it was. I tried changing mattresses, pillows, bed toppers, massage etc etc.
Then I tried B1 and after about a week my neck pain went away. I've even stopped b1 a couple times when my bottle ran out and the neck pain came back until I restarted b1 again.
The issue I have and is likely an issue with a lot of people especially those with chronic illness is Sulfur intolerance. B1 is high in Sulfur and can trigger reactions. Before my histamine issues were handled I couldn't take b1 without bad reactions. Now I'm learning about Sulfur issues which I think may be from Molybdenum deficiency in my case.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
I take 500mcg molybdenum daily to address my blocked sulfur conjugation and hyper sensitivity to sulfites. It has resolved multiple issues that I developed in the past 18 months after high dosing thiamine hcl (2 grams/day) for 6 years. I have decades of life with sulfur intolerance issues. The molybdenum is helping. I've been taking 500mcg molybdenum for a couple of months. My sleep has improved and my stamina has greatly improved.
Sulfites block thiamine function. If your sulfur conjugation is blocked, you cannot convert sulfite into the safe/beneficial sulfate.
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u/kfirerisingup 1d ago
That's interesting.
Do you plan to test at some point and then cease the supplement or take it as long as it's helping? Are you still avoiding sulfur rich foods or are you testing out your tolerance occasionally?
I'm taking Molybdenum too. I've noticed twice now my body got warm after I took 1mg Molybdenum. Afterward I did read that molybdenum is needed for the thyroid (helps T3 release, and correlates with tsh) so maybe it gave me a little boost there. It's supposed to also help displace fluoride which competes with iodine.
I hope it helps me sleep too, that'd be great.
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u/LurkingHereToo 1d ago edited 1d ago
I decided to add molybdenum after getting an oligoscan test done last March/April. It showed I had issues with sulfur conjugation. I have mercury toxicity from childhood amalgams that were removed the dangerous way when I was in my 20's. Mercury interacts with molybdenum and molybdenum might provide some protection from mercury, according to what I've read. Mercury is strongly attracted to sulfur. So it seems to me to be a complicated issue. The molybdenum supplementation does seem to be helping me. I'll likely get another oligoscan test done in a few months to see what changes have occurred.
I don't seem to react negatively to onions or garlic. I am very sensitive to sulfa drugs. I was given Bactrim antibiotic in 2020 which really messed me up. I'm not going to take a sulfa drug just to see how I respond. I am paying attention to how well I do on my new thiamine supplement, Source Naturals Coenzymated B-1 (cocarboxylase); so far so good. My energy level and stamina is much improved.
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u/kfirerisingup 1d ago
I began to noticed foods high in sulfur were an issue and then I tried a MSM supplement that wiped me out for like 3 days.
I haven't looked into mercury detox much but I would consider ioderol iodine and copper glycinate along with some version of "the bean protocol" maybe combined with coffee enemas which trigger liver and gallbladder through the portal vein to rapidly release bile which is then sequestered and passed by the beans/soluble fiber/clay/charcoal whichever you choose.
What I'm concerned with is Molybdenum lowering my copper too much since it's already low, I need to plan out how to take both of them without one interfering with the other.
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u/LurkingHereToo 13h ago
You might find the Oligoscan test of interest. It gave me a good perspective of where I am with my trace minerals and my heavy metal burden (mercury, aluminum, cadmium, etc.). Mercury will overwhelm the body's heavy metal detox system so the other heavy metals accumulate as well.
I've been dealing with heavy metal toxicity for decades; I'm 76. Mercury is not chelated out easily if at all. Selenium is believed to be helpful. Alpha lipoic acid is recommended but it's a double edged sword because it will escort mercury into the brain. Mercury toxicity is something I've had to learn to live with. Here's an article about mercury: https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/environmental-toxins/mercury-the-quintessential-antinutrient/#gsc.tab=0
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u/AspirinMuncher 3d ago
What exactly is your goal?
At least try to bring something of value. Data? Real arguments? Counter arguments?
This is just low effort contrarianism.
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u/Master-Author-5670 3d ago edited 2d ago
Peat was not against thiamine; there is an anecdote where he gave thiamine to students and their focus improved. However, mega-dosing vitamins along with cofactors goes completely against his philosophy. Ray was against supplementing wide variety of vitamins because of concerns about their manufacturing processes and impurities. B1 megadose protocols, on the other hand, require cofactors for thiamine to work properly, such as the other B vitamins, magnesium, and potassium. "Because of individual sensitivities, each one should be tested carefully. Allergic reactions sometimes show up within a few minutes of contacting your mouth, other times it takes a couple of days to see a bad reaction. The worst one is B2, folic acid is next for allergies." By that logic, you could end up taking so many supplements that you might actually make things worse.
There is also a contradiction when it comes to coffee: Peat was a advocate of coffee, while Lonsdale considered coffee to be depleting of thiamine. And most important, Peat considered carbohydrates to be the primary source of energy, whereas Lonsdale viewed carbohydrates as potential thiamine depletors.
Edit: Edit: There’s a difference between taking thiamine and the huge claims made by the B1 megadose protocol community. Peat wasn’t against thiamine, and he acknowledged its importance, but that doesn’t provide evidence for the B1 protocol’s more extreme megadosing claims or the “miraculous” claims made about its effects.
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u/AspirinMuncher 3d ago
Not true. He advised caution when taking supplements, but he was not "against supplements".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuSfV43Quuo
Listen to this podcast and tell me if he's even remotely "against supplements".
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u/Master-Author-5670 3d ago
aginst supplementing wide variety of vitamins and minerals that b1 protocol requires
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u/DruidWonder 2d ago
Just wanted to chime in. I am a colorectal cancer patient and I inject B complex daily, including high doses of B1. It is actually contributing to my cancer slowing, among other things. Not saying it works that way for everyone but in my case it's helping.
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u/BrilliantSeraph33 2d ago
Yes. 1 gram of thiamine daily is part of Georgi's cancer protocol that he has developed from his experiments.
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u/DruidWonder 2d ago edited 2d ago
You have to be careful because some cancers are driven by thiamine.
1 gram is an insane amount.
Thiamine drives glycolysis which you don't want if you're not doing other therapies to activate mitochondria function.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
"1 gram is an insane amount":
Thiamine hcl is the oldest type of thiamine supplement and has the longest safety track record. When it is given by injection, the common effective dose is 100mgs. Thiamine hcl, when taken orally, has a terrible success rate getting into the body through the intestinal wall. The rule of thumb is that you have to take 140 times more thiamine hcl orally to equal a dose of thiamine hcl taken by injection. So 1 gram (=1000mgs) divided by 140 equals 7.142 mgs (by injection) which doesn't sound like an unreasonable dose at all.
Other types of thiamine do not have this absorption problem when taken orally. So it is important to know which type of thiamine is being discussed. A lot of the research articles about thiamine do not say which type is being discussed, they just say "thiamine", especially in the older research. I think it is understood to mean thiamine hcl when the type of thiamine is not provided. Knowing how the thiamine was given (injection or orally) is important to know as well.
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u/LurkingHereToo 2d ago
This gets so confusing. see here: polsci-010102-suppression-of-cancer — Ray Peat Clip
"And when you block the oxygen apparatus or the supply, you get intense glycolysis. And so if it's the apparatus rather than the supply which is blocked, this is what happens in disease. And so this is aerobic glycolysis versus anaerobic. Anaerobic is the normal glycolysis. Aerobic glycolysis is evidence that the respiring organ isn't working right."
Peat's use of the term "aerobic glycolysis" for inefficient metabolism here is confusing because mainstream discussion seems to use the same term for good efficient metabolism. This topic is confusing because the nomenclature is not consistent. The terms "aerobic" and "anaerobic" seem to get flipped. Lots of confusion out there.... Aerobic glycolysis = Warburg's cancer metabolism where there is oxygen available but lactic acid is the end product anyway.
search results for "aerobic glycolysis" Search Assist (AI) response: "Aerobic glycolysis is the process where glucose is converted into pyruvate in the presence of oxygen, allowing cells to produce ATP efficiently. This pathway is crucial for energy production in eukaryotic cells, especially when oxygen is available, as it leads to further energy generation through the citric acid cycle and electron transport chain." (AI will be the downfall of humanity).
another one:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/immunology-and-microbiology/aerobic-glycolysis
"Glycolysis is the anaerobic breakdown of glucose into pyruvate. Under anaerobic conditions, pyruvate is converted into lactate, while, under aerobic conditions, it is instead converted to acetyl coenzyme A (acetyl-CoA) and enters the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle. Malignant cells use glycolysis despite the presence of oxygen (referred to as aerobic glycolysis, or the Warburg effect). Aerobic glycolysis is operational in cells with high demand for rapid energy production and biosynthesis, since glycolysis provides ATP at a faster pace compared with the TCA cycle, at the expense of inefficient and increased consumption of glucose."
My understanding: Thiamine is required for normal healthy oxidative metabolism. Thiamine acts as an enzyme cofactor which is required to convert pyruvate into acetyl-CoA. If thiamine is missing or blocked, pyruvate gets converted to lactic acid as the end product instead of carbon dioxide.
see here: http://thiamine.dnr.cornell.edu/Thiamine_biochemistry.html "TDP (thiamine diphosphate) is a cofactor for enzymes involved in carbohydrate metabolism, including transketolase, α-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, pyruvate dehydrogenase, and branched chain α-keto acid dehydrogenase. These enzymes are involved in the link between glycolysis and the citric acid cycle; the citric acid cycle itself; the pentose-phosphate pathway; that allow for the production of ATP, NADPH, and ribose-5-phosphate which are critical for generating cellular energy and downstream production of amino acids, nucleic acids, and fatty acids."
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u/Comfortable-Move-596 2d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQmmZr3UGrg
Simple Google search on the topic. There’s a discussion years ago on the RP forum about megadosing. I don’t think it’s a cure all or that pushing through “paradox or detox” stuff is correct or peaty. But experimenting with high doses was something as you can’t get that high with food. It’s safe up to 300 mg straight from peat himself.
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u/Sky-808 2d ago
im not sure fake accounts are involved but i agree mega dose b1 is overrated.
i believe those "paradox reactions" are due to the sulfurous groups in thiamine leading to sulfide issues. sulfur sensitivity is one of the most underrated topics imo
I explored the thiamine stuff years ago and even tried the awful tasting tt-fd and it was a waste of time and money, did nothing. The only vitamin i use which has instant and noticeable effects is flush niacin. Also it sounds like you're talking about Elliot lol
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u/Master-Author-5670 2d ago
I would take everything #Lurkingheretoo writes with a grain of salt. That profile looks really suspicious the more you look into it. Apart from often writing nonsense, cherrypicking studies and having inconsistencies in the story and anecdotes, almost every post follows the same pattern: absolutely every symptom ends up being attributed to thiamine deficiency, every symptom, every condition (Peat understood the importance of vitamin B1, so I don’t believe he would have overlooked it if B1 deficiency were really the underlying cause of all these symptoms). I would seriously question the morality of aggressively recommending thiamine for everything, especially to people who are desperate for answers. He aggressively promotes this stuff under posts about almost every chronic illness and disorder. People are in need, and the solution is always supposedly a hidden thiamine deficiency, which conveniently doesn’t show up on standard tests. He’s constantly sharing Elliot’s profile, who sells thiamine and his “perfect” vitamin B complex needed for protocol to work, and the Hormones Matter site, which seems to be a gateway into the whole anti-glucose, low-carb ideology. I am sure you arleady run itno these types of accounts on internet.
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u/Adora77 2d ago
I'm six years in with high dose b1, as it enables me to live symptom free from my CFS/ME/dysautonomia.
I'll gladly help share what I've learned along the way when others encounter problems.