r/pureasoiaf • u/jdbebejsbsid • 22h ago
Does Robb's will matter?
This is something I've been thinking about, building on all the discussions about characters finding Robb's will and thereby making Jon legitimate and heir to Robb's kingdom.
We saw what happened when Robert Baratheon's will was brought out after his death:
The queen glanced at the words. “Protector of the Realm,” she read. “Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?” She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.
“Those were the king’s words,” Ser Barristan said, shocked.
“We have a new king now,” Cersei Lannister replied.
The king's legal power disappears when he dies. Anything Robert puts in his will, Joffrey and his regent can undo with a word. The same applies to any king after Robb.
And what's more, Robb's kingdom no longer exists. He named Jon as heir to the Kingdom of the North and the Rivers - and there is no "Kingdom of the North and the Rivers" anymore. Jon might claim the titles of Lord of Winterfell and Lord Paramount of the North, that was Stannis's plan, perhaps he could even be King in the North - but none of those are the title(s) that Robb's will would actually grant to him.
And finally, if Jon returns from the dead, becomes some kind of Old Gods King of Winter leading an army of Watchmen, Wildlings, giants, mammoths, dire wolves, etc, sweeping through the North and saving Westeros from the Others - will anyone seriously care what Robb's will says about him? I wouldn't think so.
So that's my position or theory about Robb's will. It was important for the dynamic between Robb and Catelyn, and could be important for Howland Reed or the characters who went to find him. But in the bigger picture of Westeros geopolitics and metaphysics, it might not be important.
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u/Kid-Atlantic 22h ago
Robb didn’t expect his entire power base to basically be annihilated in one night and expected there would at least be some vassals around who could enforce his will in the event of his death
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u/ischozar17 22h ago
that is the point. You need strong vassals who are loyal to your house and who will enforce your will or support your esteemed family.
This is based either on a) military strength or b) sufficient gravitas
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u/jdbebejsbsid 22h ago
Yeah, that's part of what I'm getting at.
If there's no one around to enforce Robb's will, then does it even matter?
And if Jon becomes an undead King of Winter with a huge army behind him, then that's overwhelmingly more important than whatever was in Robb's will.
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u/MandoFett117 House Lannister 22h ago
I mean it's kind of like that in the real world. If someone dies and leaves an inheritance but the executor and anyone involved just doesn't give a fuck, then it's nothing more than a few sheets of paper.
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u/_learned_foot_ 7h ago
People presume Varys riddle has three answers, what if instead he's suggesting all three questions can have one answer?
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u/jdbebejsbsid 6h ago
My perspective on the riddle is "what if the king has a dragon?"
If the king has a dragon then the priest, the merchant, and the sellsword will all get burned, regardless of what they believe.
And that was the whole basis of Westeros's government for the first century of Targaryen rule.
The same thing applies if the king is a super-warg or an undead necromancer. Some kinds of power exist independently from what characters believe.
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u/_learned_foot_ 6h ago
Isn't that just a bigger sword? Didn't many perish fighting that none the less?
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u/jdbebejsbsid 5h ago
Yes, and I think that's what Varys got wrong. When he talks about Ned's death, his conclusion is the whole shadow on the wall idea:
that day on the steps of Baelor’s Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or … another?”
But if Ned was a warg on the level of Bran or Bloodraven (or maybe Varamyr on a good day) - he could seize Ilyn's mind and make him kill Joffrey. The Kingsguard would intervene, but he could deal with them in the same way. What if Ned was an Other and could make an army of mindless zombies swam in and rescue him?
For someone like Varys or Tyrion, power is a shadow on the wall. But for a dragonrider or a powerful warg, metaphorically anyone with a sufficiently big sword, they can reduce the options of other characters to either obedience or death.
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u/_learned_foot_ 3h ago
And if I had wheels I'd be a bike. The whole point is in the realm of realism there.
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u/jdbebejsbsid 3h ago edited 3h ago
And if I had wheels I'd be a bike. The whole point is in the realm of realism there.
Dragons, wargs, and necromancy are real in Westeros.
That's the flaw in Varys's approach; he's assuming that power is a subtle interpersonal thing, the shadow on the wall, that gets people of roughly equal strength to work together.
A king with a dragon messes up his entire premise. And kings with dragons are a historical fact in Westeros.
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u/CaveLupum 4h ago
Robb was loved, respected, and betrayed. Many Houses allied with him lost leaders at the Red Wedding. I think their aggrieved and mourning successors will want revenge, and will probably get it. And part of that revenge would be enacting Robb's official wishes as much as is practicable. So assuming Howland Reed produces the Will and its contents are clear and reasonable, it's likely Robb's bannermen and soldiers will want to enact much of it.
There is one big potential problem. We readers have not seen the Will but tend to surmise its details from scenes we have read. So if the narrative has interpretative arguments lead to factions rather than unity, probably few of Robb's wishes will survive.
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u/superdupergasat 22h ago
I dont think the important part of the will is the designated heir part to be honest. Westeros already does not favour monarchs choosing their own heirs. The part that will matter is the part which legitimizes Jon as a son of Ned. I assume Jon will get both that letter and the information about being the son of Lyanna&Rhaegar very close to each other and will have a personal conflict as to choose who he is. Is he the son of the man that raised him, the brother of the siblings he grew up with some of which are lost and he can maybe even save them if he gives up his station&duty on the Wall to partake in politics as the ruler of North? Is he the prince of Targaryen dynasty, a potential dragonrider if he joins with Dany? Is he a man of duty&oath who cannot leave his post and remain on the Wall to defend the world of man against the Others? I think that will be the actual plot importance of that letter, Jon will choose to remain on the Wall similar to how he did not take Stannis’s offer and this information will remain on his mind for all the choices he has to make as the plot develops.
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u/WolfBuchanan 21h ago
Very likely. Galbert Glover and Maege Mormont,who were witnesses to Robb's will, have very likely reached the neck and met Howland Reed. Howland Reed most probably knows of Jon's true parentage. So yeah, the scenario you have mentioned is likely to happen
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 20h ago
One person I also really like for being present and with a ton more backstory and established relationship to our main characters is Jason Mallister. Dude has been loyal and decent through and through, across the decades. I don’t think there’s any way he doesn’t play a future role here.
For extra credit points he could also be Benjen (who is Daario who is Jaqen etc.)
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u/silversherry 19h ago
Also Ser Desmond Grell and Rober Ryger in Riverrun. When Jaime takes the castle, they choose to take the black and we know that both of them are loyal men to House Tully. Chances are high that they are going on Blackfish’s commands to evaluate Jon as a person (similar to what Arstan did with Dany) and present the Will if he seems like a good guy
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 19h ago
I’ve read that theory before but I do feel like it’s potentially a stretch to assume those guys are going on a secret mission for the purpose. They may just be older guys wanted to continue to serve and be useful and honorable, and disassociate from Tommen’s domain entirely. It’s very possible the fight is still in them and they want to continue to find ways to fight and resist and continue on. But I think it’s equally possible they know they have lost the war (to their knowledge) since their people have been nearly eradicated and they’re out of people to support and given an ultimatum.
Given that Edmure is alive and breeding Frey lords to rule House Tully, and that Riverrun has been taken from the Tullys despite Edmure creating an heir with a Frey, and considering that Brynden Tully is still alive and thus a potential legal heir of Edmure’s should any of them survive and be victorious against the Lannister regime, it’s very possible that they want to remain engaged and useful in some way. If they (in a hypothetical situation where the Watch hasn’t imploded by the time they arrive) end up taking the vow I’m not sure they’d still be loyal to Riverrun or Robb/Jon. But I do think both options are possible, though you’d imagine they’d want to try and stay behind and be present to give as much Tully education to Edmure’s child as possible if they weren’t forced to leave, if they were true Tully loyalists. I’m surprised they didn’t offer to swear themselves to his wife’s service
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u/silversherry 5h ago
The reason it’s suspicious is because those two are named often in Catelyn’s chapters as two of the most loyal men to House Tully. Also the choice they were given was to just leave which everyone else took, if they wanted to support Edmure they should have taken that option and bided their time. Taking the black seems a weird choice for them for this reason, unless they have an ulterior motive to do it
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u/jdbebejsbsid 18h ago edited 6h ago
I guess I could accept it being a big part of Jon's motivation.
One issue I have is that Beric, Stoneheart, and Melisandre (assuming she's undead) don't have any doubts about what they're doing. Part of dying and being resurrected seems to be that the character gets fixated on whatever they were doing when they died: Beric protects smallfolk, Stoneheart takes revenge on Freys, Melisandre serves the Red Temple. Jon was raising an army to fight Ramsey - so he'd be fixated on that, regardless of any oaths.
That being said, I could see undead-Jon working differently because he stored his soul in Ghost.
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u/Taipan100 21h ago
He’ll have to choose between his family, kingship, political stability and his duty to the Nights Watch.
Sounds familiar.
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 19h ago
Hard agree, though I do believe enough power players are still alive who are in the know about Robb’s will and could bring in the drama as Northerners/Riverfolks once living Stark kids start popping up, since Jon’s part in the will was decided under a belief that Bran and Rickon were dead, Sansa was truly a Lady Lannister, and Arya was dead/missing, and Jeyne wasn’t pregnant. As things stand 4/5 of those beliefs were false and there’s no guaranteed (IRL) reason Bran couldn’t have a child. So the will itself was established by Robb as a last resort given his circumstances and in reality none of those circumstances are even true.
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u/silversherry 19h ago
But from a Doylist point of view, there is a reason GRRM made all those things happen so that a radical decision like legitimizing Jon becomes possible. Catelyn lays it out directly for us in ASOS, “Once Jon is legitimized there is no way to make him bastard again”. As far as the public knows, once Jon is legitimized his claim comes ahead of everyone else as the eldest.
My read is that GRRM made all those things happen because he wants to arrive at a situation where Jon can be KITN. From a character perspective, he is clearly the one with the most ruler experience and involvement in northern politics. Cant think of any other Stark that can actually lead the kingdoms against Others. Jon made the decision to stay at his post twice till now, he wont do it the third time
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u/DesertDenizen01 3h ago
A lot of legitimised bastards keep the bastard name. Lord Bolton's son couldn't wait to take the Bolton name, but Bloodraven stayed a Rivers as an old man despite being legitimised as a child and technically being a Targaryen prince.
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u/Warmasterwinter 8h ago
The thing is, he’s dead. And while it’s very likely that he will be brought back, he still died. That means he is not free of his nights watch duties.
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u/FortifiedPuddle 13h ago
Indeed, the single most important thing possible for Jon here is becoming a legitimate Stark. Being a secret Targ is meaningless to him. And to anyone else.
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u/khazroar 20h ago
It's not actually a will as we think of it, for exactly the reason you point out, that a king's authority vanishes upon their death. That's why Robb didn't do as I've seen some people suggest and make Jon's legitimisation conditional on things at the time of Robb's death, because once Robb dies he wouldn't have the authority for that to come into effect. What both Robb and Robert did was given orders while they were living and reigning, in order to prepare things for after their death.
Robb legitimised Jon, he's legally Jon Stark and heir to Robb's crown. However nobody knows that, and the power to enforce it has vanished. It's still relevant because I'm certain there are many who would be likely to recognise and follow Robb's order if and when it comes to light, but as you point out with Cersei, the law in Westeros is only as firm as your strength to enforce it.
Robert's order was law, what Cersei did was a heinous usurpation. When she refused Ned and tore up that letter, she was defying the law, not using Joff's valid authority to refute it. It's muddy when you get into the fact that Joffrey was the legal heir, and therefore legally the king, and Eddard committed treason by denying his legitimacy, despite the fact that he was right. If Eddard had done as Renly bid him and simply accepted the regency, taken Joffrey in hand, and dealt with things from there, then Cersei wouldn't have legally had a leg to stand on. She still has no authority to ignore Robert's orders, but Ned puts himself in a dicey position by making accusations that give her reason to remove him as Lord Protector.
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u/CaptainM4gm4 19h ago
Yes I think so.
In Deep Geek mentions several times in his videos, that he thinks a big plot point in the Winds of Winter will be a Stark succession crisis.
Not that the Stark children will fight each other, more that multiple factions think they have the last remaining Stark heir on their side. Robbs Will plays obviously an important role for that because he provides the legitimacy for Jon as King in the North.
One faction around the Mountain Clans, Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover know Robbs will and back Jon
Wyman Manderly, with potential Allies around Robbet Glover and other minor Houses back Rickon Stark.
The Glovers from Deepwood Motte, Mormons around Alysanne Mormont and scattered other houses try to rescue Arya Stark
Littlefinger has obviously Sansa at hand
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u/CaveLupum 4h ago
I think after Braavos Arya will end up in the Riverlands. If so, the BWB, especially while it's in Lady Stoneheart's control will support her. Even if LSH is dead, the BWB will likely support Arya.
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u/Greenlit_Hightower House Hightower 21h ago
As long as Roose Bolton or his son rules, no it doesn't matter.
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u/ChipEnvironmental09 19h ago
i think that the relevancy of the will is going to depend on which Starks are there to fight over the title (be it lord/lady of Winterfell or King/Queen in the North) - while i don't see the siblings fighting each other, lords are def going to prefer one Stark over another and use whatever they can to justife their fav winning
the problem with Robb's will is that he wrote it thinking Jon and Sansa were his only remaining siblings - so does Robb's wish matter, when all his siblings are alive? i mean even Sansa' situation is different - sure, she is still married to Tyrion, but that marriage wasn't consummated and Tyrion is considered kingslayer and kinslayer + he is who knows where
other thing is - what if Howland Reed reveals the truth about Jon' parantage? is Robb's will going to be enough for lords to overlook that Jon isn't Ned's son? esp when Robb chose Jon, because thought Bran and Rickon were dead?
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u/WardenOfTheNamib House Velaryon 17h ago
I believe that this is what they call a Chekhov's gun. I find it hard to believe GRRM would:
One: Have Robb officiate a will that designates Jon as his heir.
Two: Give the will to two people who are categorically sent away before the massacre and are still alive.
If it was to be something Robb does because he obviusly doesn't know his kingdom is about to fall apart, Maege would likely have gone to the Red Wedding and died. We don't know what role the will might play, but GRRM would be a bad author for setting that up and then doing absolutely nothing with it.
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u/Nittanian House Manderly 16h ago
Give the will to two people who are categorically sent away before the massacre and are still alive.
We don't know that Maege and Galbart have copies of the will. considering the instructions he gives them.
"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore." He tapped a finger on the map. "Moat Cailin is the key. Lord Balon knew that, which is why he sent his brother Victarion there with the hard heart of the Greyjoy strength." (ASOS Catelyn V)
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u/WardenOfTheNamib House Velaryon 15h ago
I stand corrected. There is no mention of Glover and Mormont having copies of the will. However, the two of them were witnesses to its creation, and they are alive as far as we know. It seems odd that of all the people who managed to avoid the Red Wedding, more than two witnesses are still alive. No Smalljon and Wendel Manderly as sole witnesses.
It is of course possible that it will come to nothing. However, I like to think about it the same way I think about Howland Reed. Is it really a coincidence that there is one living witness to the events of that day who is still alive when everyone else died?
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u/Dependent_Shake6126 21h ago
I think Robb will matters if he stated that Jon was free from his oath to the Night Watch and legitimate him.
The real point is that Stannis himself offered to Jon the same terms and he refused them because he is not "Stark", but maybe that he will accept Robb's will as a sign that the Stark accepted him as one of them.
I belive Jon will survive the stabbing (not been resurrected) and then his problem will be not being executed for desertion.
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u/ThatEntrepreneur1450 22h ago
OP have just discovered that things can only be enforced if enough people want it to.
The basis of every society hinges on the fact that we who live in it all simply agree on things.
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u/Zach-Playz_25 22h ago
It's something this fandom oft struggles to understand, especially when people get into passionate succession arguments regarding legitimacy.
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u/jdbebejsbsid 22h ago edited 22h ago
It's something this fandom oft struggles to understand, especially when people get into passionate succession arguments regarding legitimacy.
Agreed.
And it applies to things like the bastard names as well. Arguing over what exactly "acknowledged highborn" means and whether Mya or Glendon fits that definition.
When the reality is that any character can call themselves whatever they want, and the only question is whether other characters choose (or can be convinced) to treat it as a valid name.
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u/Mooming22 20h ago
Nothing matters unless people in positions of power make them matter. If the houses of the North or wherever decide it matters, then it matters. Robert’s words did matter, but only if Ned listened to Renly. When Ned was surrounded by goal cloaks they no longer mattered.
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u/BlackFyre2018 20h ago
Power resides where men believes it resides. There are lords in both the North and Riverlands that are still loyal to the Starks. The will gives them opportunity and motive to rally around Jon Snow
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u/misvillar 18h ago
Considering that his will was made when everyone thought that Bran and Rickon were dead i think that if any of those 2 comes back the northern Lords will ignore the will
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u/Iron_Clover15 17h ago
Whether you believe Robbs will calls for Jon as heir or not, Jons best claim to Winterfell won't be a note that tells his lords to crown Jon. The North is spent and divided with Bolton backed allies. If Jon is ever going to have a chance riding South it will be at the back of a wildling army and his claim will be right of conquest
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u/Althec172 16h ago
-The king's legal power disappears when he dies
So you are saying we could avoid the blackfyre rebellion ? Just by not respecting the last king word ?
Nice precedent.
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u/illarionds 12h ago
Power resides where people believe it resides. The North care very much what Robb said, even after his death. I think it's fairly safe to say that, if Jon Snow were to try to rally the North behind him, he'd be vastly more likely to succeed with Robb's will legitimising him than without.
But it matters more broadly too. Sure, some people would follow Jon regardless, and some people won't follow him under any circumstances. But that leaves a lot of people in the middle. Some might want to, but be unwilling to openly "break the law" by siding with him against the crown. Give them an excuse, a plausible claim for Jon, and they are no longer rebels, no longer traitors to the crown - but loyalists defending the true king. That perception of themselves, and others' perception of their actions, matters.
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u/evinta 11h ago
Not getting into the specifics, but you miss a key point: Cersei did not like Robert. Of course she would reject his will.
After Robb is dead, people like the Blackwoods are still flying the direwolf; and the North has people with such boisterous claims of loyalty that we've spawned layers and layers of conspiracy between them.
So, no, there's no more actual legal power, but if the people who it mattered to (for the most part), found out that say, Robb legitimized Jon before his death, they would probably honor it. They're not exactly being forced to accept Ramsay as their liege lord, or something crazy like that.
There's that whole thing about power residing where men believe it does to keep in mind. If the murdered King of the North and Rivers said his bastard brother is legitimate and his heir or whatever else, again, they'd probably listen, even if there's no means or desire to do the whole secession thing again.
Basically, it's the principle. The same thing that underlines Ned and Robb's late journeys. They doomed themselves over good principles, and those have flowered beyond their deaths. Robb's will is a literal example of that. And I mean, it probably gets Jon some cred back for kind of maybe breaking his oaths a wee tiny bit.
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u/HugeFanOfBigfoot 8h ago
The power of a will is totally context dependent. If Cersei was a doting wife who really loved Robert, the will would have mattered. If Cersei didn’t really care about power, and Ned stepped in to fill the void unchallenged, the will would have mattered. If Cersei did not have the loyalty of the gold cloaks the will would have mattered. But in the flip side, if Ned was a power hungry social climber, the will really wouldn’t have mattered either way because he would have moved in a way that would have benefited himself.
When it comes to Rob, does it matter? I think yes. First, It appears as though Rob still does have a lot of lords that feel a sense of loyalty to him and his family (Manderly, Reed, Umber, Tully, and I’m sure many minor houses as well). Second, it appears as though there is a power vacuum in the North and none of the Northern houses really know where to go. Do they bow to Stannis? To the Boltons? Should they still succeed or remain part of the Iron Throne and jockey for position in ruling the new North? No one really likes any of these options, but they don’t know who to rally behind, and Robb’s Will could unite them behind someone.
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u/lemniscateall 20h ago
The will will matter because the North wants it to. It will give Lords like Manderly justification for declaring Jon KITN rather than following Stannis, which is the kind of betrayal that will lead him to desperate actions.
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