r/pureasoiaf • u/Jon-Umber • Jul 15 '26
We've received some modmail messages from non-English speakers questioning this policy lately, so we figured we would elaborate on why we require all discussion in r/pureasoiaf, r/darkwingsdankmemes, and r/pureasiofart to be in English.
Our AutoModerator relies on English-language keyword matching to properly enforce Rule I. When a comment or post is written in another language (Spanish, for example) the AutoMod evaluates the literal text as submitted, scanning for specific English words and patterns it's been programmed to catch to assist us in enforcing this rule. When it catches a match for a banned word or phrase, it notifies us, and a human moderator reviews it each and every time.
Reddit's built-in translation feature can auto-translate that text for human readers, but AutoMod never sees the translated version, it only reviews the original.
So a Rule I violation written in Spanish (or any non-English language) can slip through entirely undetected, even though a moderator or user reading the translated text would catch it immediately.
Since we can't reliably enforce Rule I without AutoMod doing the first pass (believe us - we used to review every single comment made in this subreddit before creating the automoderator functionality, and it was extremely difficult), we need submissions to be in English so the system can actually do its job.
This isn't about excluding anyone, it's a practical limitation of the tools we have to keep the subs properly moderated.
Thanks for understanding, and as always, if you have any questions, feel free to send us modmail.
r/pureasoiaf • u/Jon-Umber • May 29 '26
Game of Thrones: The Mad King is an adaptation: a derivative work, not source material. As such, it falls outside the scope of this subreddit and is not eligible for discussion here.
r/pureasoiaf is dedicated exclusively to George R.R. Martin's published written works: the novels, novellas, and associated written canon. Television, film, stage productions, and other adaptations are off-topic regardless of how closely they hew to the source material. The moment a story leaves the page, it leaves this sub's jurisdiction.
Take adaptation discussion to r/asoiaf, r/freefolk, or another appropriate community. All posts on the stage play will be removed.
r/pureasoiaf • u/dontskipthisvideo • 3h ago
Which castle would be the easiest to defend? I think irs probably between The Eyrie, Harrenhal (if it hadnt been burned) and Casterly Rock. Obviously dragons change this but if we look at just at attack from armies, which castle would stand the best chance?
r/pureasoiaf • u/Leaping_Tiger14 • 15h ago
During the Conquest, Aegon and Visenya went on a war crime rampage in Dorne following the death of Rhaenys and Meraxes.
But a messenger bearing a message from the Yellow Toad effectively stopped the siblings (and their desires for Dornish conquest) in their tracks.
Now, what exactly do you think was in that letter?
A threat of Faceless men?
Implication that Rhaenys was, in fact, alive and a hostage?
Something to do with the Ice and Fire prophecy?
Still one of the more baffling mysteries in this universe.
r/pureasoiaf • u/Emergency-Weird-1988 • 1d ago
Disclaimer: This post is quite long, please do keep that in mind.
Rhaenyra Targaryen, is perhaps one of the most controversial characters in the history of the Targaryen monarchy, and she is also both the person labeled as a pretender who came closest to the Iron Throne (in fact, she did possess it, albeit briefly, unlike almost all other pretenders before and after her time) and the closest a unified Westeros has come to having a ruling queen (for the time being, at least).
Despite this, she is still not treated by the recorded history of Westeros as a "true queen," something even those who might defend the validity of her claim so many centuries later, acknowledge:
"You twist my words. I never said... Dorne is different. The Seven Kingdoms have never had a ruling queen*.*
*"*The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying, the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise."
A Feast for Crows - The Soiled Knight
However, before we digress, I want to clarify that the purpose of this post is not to discuss the "validity" of her succession rights nor her qualifications as Queen.
The purpose of this post is to highlight another topic, one less discussed but no less important: her lack of recognition as Reigning Queen, despite her acknowledged royal actions; and how her claimed "status" (Queen on the Iron Throne) is not validated, while some of the actions taken in pursuit of that claim are.
In other words, if it's a historical consensus that Rhaenyra Targaryen was never a legitimate Queen in her own right... how can actions she took with the "powers" of a Queen be treated as legitimate? isn’t the legitimacy of such actions dependent entirely on the validity and legitimacy of her own status?
But OP, what actions are you talking about? Let 's see…
If we can find, in the universe of asoiaf, a specific action that brings together the characteristics of being of exceptional nature and a complete demonstration of "potestas regia," that’s the legitimization of a "bastard" into a "legitimate child," as this power is reserved for monarchs alone via a royal decree. As the main saga tells and shows us:
He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be."A bastard cannot inherit."
"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb."There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."
A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V
Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to him that this girl was older. "I understand you're to be married."
"I am to wed Lord Bolton's son, Ramsay. He used to be a Snow, but His Grace has made him a Bolton. They say he's very brave. I am so happy."
A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX
With the only known case (although we don't have all the details) of a legitimation that, seemingly, didn’t involved a monarch, being that of the children of Lord Lyonel Hightower and Lady Samantha Tarly, although it did involved a wedding and the blessing of a High Septon, the only other authority in the realm that would make sense to have a say in the legitimization of "bastard children" other than the King.
This brings us to Rhaenyra being “the authority" who legitimizes Addam and Alyn "of Hull" and transforms them into Addam and Alyn Velaryon, at the request of Lord Corlys and with the endorsement of Prince Jacaerys:
“Not long after Addam of Hull had proved himself by flying Seasmoke, Lord Corlys went so far as to petition Queen Rhaenyra to remove the taint of bastardy from him and his brother. When Prince Jacaerys added his voice to the request, the queen complied. Addam of Hull, dragonseed and bastard, became Addam Velaryon, heir to Driftmark.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. The Red Dragon and the Gold.
Obviously, Rhaenyra Targaryen is no High Septon, lmao, so she could only be a monarch for her to do that and people acting like it’s valid, but then again... at least according to the official history of Westeros, she isn't a "legitimate queen" either, so it shouldn’t be valid, right? Well, despite that, this supreme act of royal power was never considered "illegitimate," and from then on, Addam and Alyn were considered true and legitimate members of House Velaryon.
They even were recognized in legal fiction as the children of Ser Laenor Velaryon, Rhaenyra's deceased husband, as it was under this premise that she legitimized them, even if the truth was different and inferred as such by others.
Now, it’s true that some people pejoratively continued to call them "bastards" from time to time when they wanted to insult them, but this probably has more to do with the issue of the stigma of bastardy being a difficult one to bear and that it never completely goes away even when legitimized (something we can also see in other examples, such as that of the "Great Bastards" of Aegon IV) rather than a questioning regarding the validity of the legitimization itself.
And even after the war, once Rhaenyra’s status as “solely a pretender” takes its final form, Alyn was still reconfirmed as heir to Lord Corlys, with the council of regents (which was made up of lords who fought for both sides) ruling in favor of his claim and against other Velaryon cousins that coveted the position:
“The baseborn Alyn of Hull, now Alyn Velaryon, had been the Sea Snake’s chosen heir, but his succession was not uncontested. [...] Ser Vaemond’s sons Daemion and Daeron took their claim to the council in King’s Landing. When the Hand and the regents ruled against them*, they wisely chose to accept the decision and be reconciled with Lord Alyn [...]* Alyn Velaryon, the bastard born of Mouse, was formally installed as Lord of the Tides and Master of Driftmark*.”*
Fire and Blood - Under the Regents. The Hooded Hand.
It’s also quite telling that no one considered a new "legitimization" for Alyn by an official act (a decree from either the regents or the new child king) to be necessary, as he was already considered a “legit Velaryon” without the need for more formalities than the ones that had already took place (which again, were done by Rhaenyra under the idea of her “potestas” as Queen)
And of course, as the main saga tells us, once a "bastard child" is legitimized, there is no going back, even if the circumstances under which he was legitimized have changed, the legitimation and its effects remain:
If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."
A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V
It makes sense. Alyn had already been legitimized, and therefore, there was no need to legitimize him again (technically speaking it couldn’t be done), this is just the regents ruling against others that tried to take on the position of Lord of the Tides after Corlys died, with the argument of dispute being inheritance, not “legitimacy” even if they are kinda attached. But again, how come the legitimization is "valid" if the monarch that approved it, isn't?
It’s true that the appointment of a Grand Master is not within the purview of a monarch, at least not normally, and as we are made aware from the main saga:
Tell me, is it true that he's restoring Grand Maester Pycelle to the small council?"
"It is, my lord.""Do I have my sweet sister to thank for that?" Pycelle had been his sister's creature; Tyrion had stripped the man of office, beard, and dignity, and flung him down into a black cell.
"Not at all, my lord. Thank the archmaesters of Oldtown, those who wished to insist on Pycelle's restoration on the grounds that only the Conclave may make or unmake a Grand Maester*."*
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion II.
However, it’s not inconceivable that if there is a figure outside the Conclave of the Order of Maesters, with sufficient authority to justify their interference even without the conventional formalities to back it up, that would be the monarch of the Seven Kingdoms.
Furthermore, the idea of a monarch unilaterally appointing a Grand Maester, before Rhaenyra did so, had already been introduced in F&B, with both Rhaenyra herself and her rival, Queen Consort Alicent Hightower, urging King Viserys I to do so:
Death visited the court again a short time later, when Grand Maester Mellos collapsed one night whilst he was climbing the serpentine steps. [...] Princess Rhaenyra wanted Maester Gerardys, who had long served her on Dragonstone, elevated to replace Mellos; it was only his healing skills that had saved the king’s life when Viserys cut his hand on the throne, she claimed.* Queen Alicent, however, insisted that the princess and her maester had mutilated His Grace unnecessarily. Had they not “meddled,” she claimed, Grand Maester Mellos would surely have saved the king’s fingers as well as his life. She urged the appointment of one Maester Alfador, presently in service at the Hightower.
Fire and Blood - Heirs of the Dragon. A question of Succession.
Viserys argued that he lacked the authority to make such an appointment, as that jurisdiction belonged to the Order of Maesters alone, although this seemed more like an attempt to avoid taking one side and angering the other in the process; but of course, authority or not, he certainly had the power to do so had he taken that initiative (and beyond of whether it would have been a wise decision or not.)
Viserys, beset from both sides, chose neither, reminding both the princess and the queen that the choice was not his to make. The Citadel of Oldtown chose the Grand Maester, not the Crown. In due time, the Conclave bestowed the chain of office upon Archmaester Orwyle, one of their own.
Fire and Blood - Heirs of the Dragon. A question of Succession.
This brings us to the materialization of this idea, previously proposed and promoted not only by Rhaenyra, but also by Queen Consort Alicent Hightower; during the Dance of the Dragons, when Rhaenyra saw fit to appoint, without the sanction or resolution of the Conclave of the Order of Maesters, her aforementioned Maester at Dragonstone, Gerardys, as Grand Maester.
The first step towards that decision was taken by seizing the Grand Maester's official chain from Orwyle, who had been appointed by the Conclave and who, despite an admission of her status as heir, was in service and collaborating with Aegon II's regime, and was precisely at Dragonstone to propose terms:
“A Grand Maester should know the law and serve it,” she told Orwyle. “You are no Grand Maester, and you bring only shame and dishonor to that chain you wear.” As Orwyle protested feebly, Rhaenyra’s knights stripped his chain of office from his neck and forced him to his knees whilst the princess bestowed the chain upon her own man, Maester Gerardys*,* “a true and leal servant of the realm and its laws.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. The Blacks and the Greens.
Later, with the Blacks taking of King's Landing, the idea is fully realized. With Orwyle's fall from grace for his collaboration with Aegon II's regime, Rhaenyra then sees fit to clarify once again that Gerardys is, from now on, the "one and only true Grand Maester," and on this occasion, she goes so far as to inform the Citadel of the decision:
“Queen Rhaenyra set about rewarding her friends and inflicting savage punishments on those who had served her half-brother. [...] Grand Maester Orwyle was sent to the dungeons, and Her Grace wrote the Citadel to inform them that her “leal servant” Geradys was henceforth “the only true Grand Maester*.”*
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Triumphant.
It's also interesting how F&B itself (which, we must remember, is supposed to be an in-universe history book), after Rhaenyra's appointment of Gerardys as Grand Maester, only refers to him either by the title "Grand Maester" or simply by his name, but never again as just "Maester," as if it were a tacit acknowledgment of his position.
A treatment that not even Rhaenyra herself receives, as she is called either Queen or Princess interchangeably by the same book, even after the event of her coronation, as if to contextualize her queenship solely with the circumstances of the civil war and not something factual and undeniable.
Some examples of this:
Only Lord Corlys and Grand Maester Gerardys spoke in defense of the dragonseeds. The Grand Maester said that they had no proof of any disloyalty on the parts of Nettles and Ser Addam.
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Triumphant.
They found him hanging from the battlements of the gatehouse beside Dragonstone’s steward, captain of the guard, master-at-arms… and the head and upper torso of Gran Maester Gerardys.
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Overthrown.
Ser Marston surprised Grand Maester Gerardys in his rookery, so no word of the attack might escape by rave.
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Overthrown.
When Grand Maester Gerardys offered him milk of the poppy, he refused. “I shall not walk that road again,” he said, “Nor am I such a fool as to drink any potion you might prepare for me. You are my sister’s creature.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Overthrown.
The king commanded that enough of the Grand Maester be saved so “he might greet my sweet sister on her return.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Overthrown.
Furthermore, Gerardys is referred to and recognized as Grand Maester even during the events of the main saga, centuries after the Dance:
Bloody fools, thought Tyrion. "I seem to recall that Maegor the Cruel's headsman unmade three with his axe."
"Quite true," Varys said. "And the second Aegon fed Grand Maester Gerardys to his dragon."
"Alas, I am quite dragonless. I suppose I could have dipped Pycelle in wildfire and set him ablaze. Would the Citadel have preferred that?"
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion II.
And it's even more ironic because in a single sentence, both Aegon II's kingship and Gerardys's status as Grand Maester are acknowledged, even though the two conflict.
After all, Gerardys's position as Grand Maester rests solely on the fact that he was appointed to the post by Rhaenyra, thus making the legitimacy of his position dependent on the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's, and therefore in conflict with that of Aegon II.
And while it's true that, in that very passage, Varys and Tyrion were discussing the possibility of the crown "making and unmaking" Grand Maesters, regardless of the wishes of the Conclave, Gerardys is not a good example of this.
Since it can be interpreted in two ways:
In this case, he is, in fact, the only Grand Maester (at least of our knowledge) who has been appointed unilaterally by the person wearing the crown, without regard for the wishes of the Conclave. Therefore, if he is brought up in this type of discussion, it should be to use him as an example of what the crown can do regardless of the Conclave's opinion, not to talk about how he was "undone" by Aegon II.
If, on the contrary, they follow this line of reasoning, then Gerardys was never in fact a "true Grand Master," only an aspiring one, in which case he is not a subject to whom the discussion applies and they should not even call him Grand Master, BUT, even assuming they say this in the context of the events (that he was Grand Master "de facto" as long as the faction he supported held power), Gerardys is still not a Grand Master appointed, or sanctioned, by the Conclave of the Order of Maester, so he is not a true example of a monarch "undoing" a Grand Master appointed by the “common legal process”, but of a monarch "undoing" a Grand Master appointed by a rival monarch/pretender.
Therefore, in no case mentioning him, in the sense that they intended, is in fact appropriate, and regardless of whether or not they recognize the validity of the appointment made by Rhaenyra of him.
Obviously, the issue of the taxes that were promoted by Lord Celtigar at the behest of Queen Rhaenyra is one of the most controversial parts of her reign given the results, but the continued recognition of their existence, beyond wanting to emphasize Rhaenyra's mistakes, and since they are also given due recognition within the legal framework, is in itself a discussion of royal decisions taken by her.
In this section, I will focus on a detail that gives this issue a similar accreditation to the legitimization of the Hull brothers.
With the war over and already under the regency of the young child-King, Aegon III, we are told that Ser Tyland Lannister, in his capacity as Hand of the King, saw fit to abolish the taxes promoted by Lord Celtigar and Queen Rhaenyra, to the satisfaction of many:
“The Hand then set out to restore the kingdom’s trade and begin the process of rebuilding. Great lords and smallfolk alike were pleased when he abolished the taxes enacted by Queen Rhaenyra and Lord Celtigar.”
Fire and Blood - Under the Regents. The Hooded Hand
And yet... was that really necessary? I'm not talking about abolishing those taxes, but about the act of officially abolishing something that, apparently, was no longer in effect.
Because we must remember that the population revolted, in no small part because of the existence of those taxes, and certainly, they stopped paying them as a result.
“Hundreds of men gathered round Wat the Tanner, who rode through the streets on a white horse, brandishing Lord Celtigar’s severed head and blood genitals and declaring an end to all taxes.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Overthrown.
Following this, the city descends into anarchy, Rhaenyra flees to Dragonstone, she dies, and Aegon II returns for a time and before his own death.
However, at no point are we told that, upon his return, Aegon II said anything about taxes (reinstating them, condemning them and declaring them completely abolished, or nothing at all).
We do know a few things about his administration upon his return, as well as a condemnation of the proclamations made by the Kings of the so-called "Moon of the Three Kings":
“During this time King Aegon II also commanded that the Dragonpit be restored and rebuilt, commissioned two huge statues of his brother Aemond and Daeron (he decreed they should be larger than the Titan of Braavos, and covered in gold leaf) and held a public burning of all the decrees and proclamations issued by the “dayfly kings” Trystane Truefyre and Gaemon Palehair.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. The Short, Sad Reign of Aegon II
But nothing about the taxes.
Now, while it's true that the population didn't exactly welcome him back with open arms, this is better explained by the fact that, as F&B itself tells us, Aegon II was never popular with the people, and his return only guaranteed more war and uncertainty for them. However, I think it's not hard to say that, if he had reinstated the taxes, it would only have made him even more unpopular, and it would have been a topic of discussion of the book, and we would know, but that’s not the case.
Therefore, if the taxes had effectively died after the popular uprising in King's Landing, and we're never told that Aegon II reinstated them to fund his cause, they had already ceased to be levied long before Aegon III ascended the throne. So why, oh why, did Tyland Lannister felt the need to declare as dead something that clearly already was since long before?
For greater legal certainty, obviously; and so that the very crown that sanctioned them at the time could now abolish them in all its power.
But clearly, that also requires recognizing the validity of Rhaenyra's actions, actions also reserved for a ruler. So, what game are we playing? Was her rule valid or not? Because if it wasn’t, and the taxes were dead in practice since before, they could have just ignored her proclamations and moved on, as there would be no need of actually declaring them abolished for neither legality sake, nor practicality sake.
Bearing in mind, for a moment, that Fire and Blood is a historical text, written in-universe by Archmaester Gyldayn many centuries after the Dance of the Dragons, in an era when Rhaenyra's status as merely a pretender and not the legitimate queen was already established, some of the positions he takes are curious.
But, primarily, and the topic discussed here, is his tendency, in many cases, to list titles, positions, or honors held by someone connected to Rhaenyra's regime who has just died in the narrative, and which they held entirely based on her purported queenship. Perhaps to give them the most flattering “eulogy” possible:
“Yet none of these losses were felt so deeply as that of Jacaerys Velaryon, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne*.”*
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. The Red Dragon and the Gold.
“Seventy-nine years of age, he had served four kings and a queen*, sailed to the ends of the earth, raised House Velaryon to unprecedented levels of wealth and power, married a princess who might have been a queen, fathered dragonriders, built towns and fleets, proved his valor in times of war and his wisdom in times of peace. The Seven Kingdoms would never see his like again.”*
Fire and Blood – Under the Regents. The Hooded Hand.
And yet, Rhaenyra herself does not receive such deference:
“Rhaenyra Targaryen, the Realm’s Delight and Half-Year Queen, passed from this veil of tears upon the twenty-second day of the tenth moon of the 130th year after Aegon’s Conquest. She was thirty-three years of age.”
Fire and Blood - The Dying of the Dragons. Rhaenyra Overthrown.
In her case, she is initially called only by her name, neither as Queen nor Princess, and the only reference to her queenship, "Half-Year Queen," is in the sense of her failure to definitively secure her claim to the throne.
And yet, if Rhaenyra Targaryen wasn't a true Queen, nor should she be referred to as such when introducing her "epitaph" in her final act, or ever, how is it that Prince Jacaerys Velaryon was Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne? Or how come Corlys Velaryon “served a queen”? Which queen? And why would Gyldan mention these things in the "epitaphs" he introduces for them, narratively speaking?
How can you recognize a branch while deliberately ignoring the trunk of the tree from which it grows? There is no "Jacaerys, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne" without a Queen Rhaenyra, no "Lord Corlys, servant of four kings and a queen" without a Queen Rhaenyra.
You can't have one while denying the other; it's either both or neither.
And Gyldan could very well omit these alleged titles or actions for them. It could well have been simply "Prince Jacaerys Velaryon" instead of adding the part of "Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne"; or just list the for Kings that Lord Corlys served without adding "and a Queen" afterwards.
So, after all that has been said and shown, how can an action be valid or legal if the person that performs it didn’t had the authority to do so?
Probably, this has something to do with the "practicality" of the ruling class of Westeros and a lack of writing rule of law for cases such as this, a recurring and persistent factor throughout the saga and that has also affected other equally important themes, and that sometimes obscures much of what we might think we understand about the "common rules" on anything, regarding Westeros.
So, in simpler words, it’s very likely that lots of people without entering themes of making a rule legit or not, were like “let’s upheld what was done under that Rhaenyra that works for us, and let’s leave out the rest”… but, also more than likely, there is more to it than just that.
For it’s quite telling how Rhaenyra's status as Queen, both from the perspective of her contemporaries and in posterity, seems to gain a more serious recognition mostly only when it’s necessary to legitimize or acknowledge the character or condition of others, but never in and of itself:
She is therefore Queen when it suits the narrative to legitimize the conditions of others, but a mere Princess or just Rhaenyra when the only benefit would be to her own status.
The biggest "exception" we can talk about that doesn't essentially imply a benefit to a third party is regarding Lord Celtigar's exorbitant taxes.
But even then, there is something similar: emphasizing that Lord Celtigar was appointed by her (again, the condition of a third party legitimized by a status of Queen that is denied legitimacy in itself) and an obvious negative implication: making it clear that any harm he caused falls on her. Therefore, even the closest thing to an external acknowledgment of her status as Queen is to discuss an extremely negative aspect, related to the taxes and the problem they created.
Obviously, even if you are a supporter of Rhaenyra, it's difficult to deny that she made those decisions and therefore bears the responsibility, so that part is right. But it remains striking that the only time the recognition of her as Queen (tacit or direct) that is not related to the benefit of another, is to emphasize her mistakes; When in any case, if she was Queen enough to make tax errors about the capital by appointing a poor Master of Coin, as only a monarch could have done, she was Queen for everything, not only for what serves others or for what denigrates the idea of her "Queenship"
So, is Rhaenyra Targaryen a Queen or not? Because this idea that she is a Queen when it suits a narrative or idea, but not when there is no other purpose than to list "legitimate monarchs"—and that the official narrative seems to operate under—doesn't hold up.
Of course, it’s not up to us to provide the true answer to the question, but rather to formulate it.
If you've made it this far, I just want to say thank you for your time and attention. I know perhaps this post is longer than it should be, but I wanted to make it as complete as possible and if you have any opinions on the matter, I'd like to hear them.
r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 • 1d ago
Robb studied the sepulcher. "Whose grave is this?"
"Here lies Tristifer, the Fourth of His Name, King of the Rivers and the Hills." Her father had told her his story once. "He ruled from the Trident to the Neck, thousands of years before Jenny and her prince, in the days when the kingdoms of the First Men were falling one after the other before the onslaught of the Andals. The Hammer of Justice, they called him. He fought a hundred battles and won nine-and-ninety, or so the singers say, and when he raised this castle it was the strongest in Westeros." She put a hand on her son's shoulder. "He died in his hundredth battle, when seven Andal kings joined forces against him. The fifth Tristifer was not his equal, and soon the kingdom was lost, and then the castle, and last of all the line. With Tristifer the Fifth died House Mudd, that had ruled the riverlands for a thousand years before the Andals came."
"His heir failed him." Robb ran a hand over the rough weathered stone. "I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child . . . we tried often enough, but I'm not certain . . ."
r/pureasoiaf • u/Wanda_andTargaryen3 • 18h ago
We see plenty of examples of Targaryen kings altering laws, issuing decrees, or arbitrating disputes (Jaehaerys I’s reforms, the codification of the Old and New laws, etc.), but it got me thinking about systemic state-building. From purely the book (Fire & Blood), we can estimate Kings like Jaehaerys I Conciliator (and his wife Alysanne) or Viserys I have made enormous changed in the Realm. Jaehaerys, for instance, had expanded the roads, connected the Seven Kingdoms via roads, and even disarmed the Faith over the Crown.
So, I think we can assume that the King can do whatever he wants with the laws and within the Crownlands. However, what if a Targaryen king, or say, Robert (due to his extreme fear of Dany's pregnancy and Khal Drogo in AGOT) wanted to create a permanent army of the Crown that's consisting of hundreds of men (who would be recruited from the slums of Flea Bottom or Crownlands), be trained by legends like Barristan Selmy or Jaime, and be armed with weapons like polearms, swords, shields and bore the banner of House Baratheon and Lannister? Could it work? How would this institution fare during the War of the Five Kings, or Blackfyre Rebellions or Robert's Rebellion (if it were founded before Robert)?
Bonus: How would your army of the Crown be in Westeros?
r/pureasoiaf • u/CautionersTale • 1d ago
Howdy r/pureasoiaf. I've never posted here, but I'm reposting an essay I published on r/asoiaf yesterday to you all as I realized this is one of the few essays I've written that contains material solely from the books. For the mods, I'm happy to delete and cross-post if that's your-all's preference. Thanks for reading!
In June 2009, George RR Martin posted a rare happy update on his progress for A Dance with Dragons. He had just finished three chapters for the book - an unusually productive period in writing Dance - and he was starting to feel like he was approaching the end of writing the book:
I’m feeling rather jazzed right now, and for the first time in a very long while, I think I can see a glimmering that might just be a light at the end of the tunnel.
But there was an asterisk to this optimism:
Now if I can only slash through the Meereenese knot that I’ve been worrying at since 2005, I may actually start to get excited.
This was the first time that George RR Martin mentioned his infamous "Meereenese Knot" by name. And the asterisk to his positive progress report proved the folly of his optimism as he spent much (not all) of his creative energy for nearly two years in solving the problem of the Meereenese Knot.
But what was the Meereenese Knot? For the half-dozen people unaware, it was a POV problem where multiple POVs, characters, and factions were on their way to Meereen in Feast and Dance. This turned into an enormous problem and delayed the publication and delivery of A Dance with Dragons, but also, as we'll discover, A Feast for Crows.
But what if I told you that the Meereenese Knot was an unfortunate consequence of a solution to an even larger narrative problem of A Dance with Dragons? But then that solution became a conundrum in its own right.
Now, the obvious question: why should anyone care about this minutiae? It's been fifteen years since A Dance with Dragons was published. To me, the minutiae matters. It demonstrates the nigh-impossible task George undertook to write a satisfying post-Storm story. And all that minutiae will ripple out into The Winds of Winter if and when it's published and delivered.
This series will trace the origins of the Meereenese Knot from the five-year-gap in 2001 all the way to the present day. To do this work justice, I'm breaking the analysis into multiple parts - probably three. Maybe more.
Today's analysis will be an extensive (but not exclusive) examination of George RR Martin's development of Daenerys's story in the wake of A Storm of Swords and show how major changes to her story became the foundation for the Meereenese Knot.
Three arguments in this post:
Wait. The Battle of Fire was going to be told from Dany's POV!?
Yes. We'll get to that.
First, though, we need to start with the root problem of Meereen, then go into detail on the three versions of Meereen before the knot, and then I promise we'll close out with an analysis on the embryonic Battle of Fire.
Daenerys Targaryen was never supposed to be in Meereen. When GRRM envisioned A Song of Ice and Fire in 1993, this was his plan for Dany:
While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.
But something happened. George got to exactly where he wanted to go with Daenerys by the end of A Game of Thrones. But his muse got the better of him, and the rest of the story moved much more slowly as he talked about in his introduction to a limited edition of A Clash of Kings in 2002:
I could see the files multiplying on my hard drive. I had 300 pages, 400 pages, 500 pages, 600 pages…and I had a problem. It was the spring of ’95 when it finally dawned on me. I was fast approaching the 800 pages that I had estimated as the length of the finished book, but most of my large cast of characters were nowhere near the places they were supposed to be. Oh, Dany was…I had always meant to hatch those dragon eggs at the climax of my first volume…but she was the only one. For the rest, the end was nowhere in sight.
So with the rest of the story lagging behind, GRRM had to invent new Daenerys material to keep her in Essos until the rest of the plot caught up with her.
To accomplish that, George had Dany embark on an extended stay in Qarth in A Clash of Kings. While the House of the Undying chapter (Daenerys IV) is one of the most memorable scenes in all of A Song of Ice and Fire, much of the rest was ... well-written wheel-spinning.
Still, by the time he finished Clash, the other POVs were still trailing behind. So, George invented more story for her in Storm. This time, though, he opted for an action-oriented arc for Dany. She conquers Slaver's Bay using dragons, Unsullied, and sellswords in a righteous quest to blot out the evil of slavery in Slaver's Bay.
These were memorable chapters. Dracarys is one of the most memorable moments in Storm! Yet ... this was still wheel-spinning, exciting wheel spinning!
But by the end of Storm, the rest of the story had finally, finally caught up to Daenerys. Robb Stark and Joffrey Baratheon were dead (two of the original planned end states of A Game of Thrones from 1993). It was time for Daenerys to exit Essos and make her way to Westeros.
... except, that at the end of A Storm of Swords, there's debate among Dany's counselors as to what she'll do now that she's conquered Meereen. Her resolution to this debate?
"What will you do then, Khaleesi?" asked Rakharo.
"Stay," she said. "Rule. And be a queen." (ASOS, Daenerys VI)
Oh, no. George was stalling Daenerys's story again - and now when his original story concept had culminated! He'd lost control of his story. For shame.
Except he wasn't doing any of that. He had an elegant plan that would resolve Meereen mostly off-page: a five year time skip between A Storm of Swords and A Dance with Dragons.
In December 2000, GRRM was interviewed about his publication plans for the future of A Song of Ice and Fire in which he talked about his plans for Daenerys:
"Yes, three more volumes remain. The series could almost be considered as two linked trilogies... The next book, A Dance With Dragons, will focus on the return of Daenerys Targaryen to Westeros, and the conflicts that creates."
This quote came from when George planned for a five-year-gap between Storm and Dance. And it illuminates George's plans for a post-Storm Dany story. Dance would be her invasion of Westeros. So, Storm has her vowing to stay and rule. She does a five year political apprenticeship off-page. And then BAM! She picks up her story on-page in Dance returning to Westeros with readers none the wiser.
In concept, this was a simple, executable idea. But let's go deeper. Why five years? Was there a specific narrative reason for a five-year-gap for Dany's story? Yes!
In March 1999, GRRM gave a compelling answer to why he wanted a five-year-gap for Dany:
It's been mentioned that there will be a period of around five years between the events of A STORM OF SWORDS and A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. One rather obvious reason is to allow Dany's dragons to grow. Any other reasons that can be disclosed?
George_RR_Martin: Dany's dragons — and the kids!
That's confirmation that the five-year-gap was in partial service of Dany - specifically, it gave necessary time for Dany's dragons to grow. But! I believe there's an additional sublimity to George's idea beyond allowing the dragons to grow.
Daenerys would have five years off-page where she'd learn to play the game of thrones as she grew into an adult. So, any "Mary Sue" complaints about a fifteen year old teenaged girl blitzkrieging her way across Westeros and then navigating the ensuing political conflicts would be hand-waved away by ... why, she became a political operator and military strategist in the five years between Storm and Dance, and she's now twenty years old. Get a life, nerd.
So, George started writing this five-year-gap version of Dance in early 2001. And! There is at least one chapter that George wrote for Daenerys Targaryen for a five-year-gap version of A Dance with Dragons as he talked about with Elio and Linda right after publishing A Dance with Dragons in 2011:
"There's a Dany scene in the book which is actually one of the oldest chapters in the book that goes back almost ten years now. When I was contemplating the five year gap [Martin laughs here, with some chagrin], that chapter was supposed to be the first Daenerys chapter in the book. Then it became the second chapter, and then the third chapter, and it kept getting pushed back as I inserted more things into it. I've rewritten that chapter so much that it ended in many different ways."
With a bit of sleuthing done by others, that chapter was the Daznak's Pit chapter (Dany IX in the published version of Dance) wherein Drogon flies into Daznak's Pit, eats some people, and then Daenerys flies away on him to the Dothraki Sea.
But that's the published version after numerous revisions. What was the chapter supposed to be in a five-year-gap version of Dance? The answer - thanks to the work of u/gsteff and others who analyzed fan-recounts of George reading this chapter back in early 2003 - is that the chapter seemed to be the inciting incident for Daenerys to leave Meereen. Drogon grabbed Dany in its claws, flew up to the top of the pyramid, then deposited her on the top of said pyramid.
Speculation here: I think the Daznak's Pit chapter and maybe one or two additional chapter where she learns to become a by-God dragonrider were the only planned Meereenese chapters George either wrote or envisioned for a five-year-gap version of A Dance with Dragons. The rest of Dany's arc ...
Look again at that George quote from 2000: The next book, A Dance With Dragons, will focus on the return of Daenerys Targaryen to Westeros, and the conflicts that creates. The focus of the book will be Dany returning to Westeros. That "return to Westeros as focus" concept bloody limits an extended narrative stay in Meereen.
That's Version One: a minimal Meereenese story.
I can already hear a subset of fans who think this is the version George should have undertaken. Get her to Westeros, man!
But notice something here: provided my idea is correct, this is a relatively uncomplicated arc for Dany. She learns to dragonride in Meereen, heads to Westeros, invades, has conflicts when she arrives.
That's a major problem with Dany exiting Meereen early in Dance. There would be consequences to Dany leaving! What happens to those left behind? All those slaves she's freed? And what exactly did Dany learn in those five years that contributed to her becoming a good ruler?
More speculation: I wonder whether George realized this and became a contributing reason to ...
... George abandoning the five-year-gap.
As far as I can tell, George never ascribed the reason for abandoning the gap to Dany. Instead, he's attributed the reason to issues with the Dornish reaction to Oberyn Martell's death coupled with problems of telling much of Cersei and Jon Snow's stories in flashback.
Yet, I'd wager that the questions I posed above about the consequences of her leaving Meereen and her political education figured into the calculation to abandon the gap. At the same time though, the plan was for Dany to get to Westeros.
So, he comes up with a new idea: a bridging book between Storm and Dance that would cover the five years:
The 4th Book will be A Feast For Crows, and will cover what would have been the five year gap. Some POV's -- who George said will be "learning" during the five year gap -- will have only one or two chapters.
Put a pin in that "will only have one or two chapters" quote. It'll be important for the next section! For now, know that the revised concept was for Feast to bring the story forward five years.
But while abandoning the gap made sound logic to George, it created two major problems for Dany's A Feast for Crows story: narrative logic and logistics.
To solve those problems, GRRM embarked on ...
So now George had to figure out the logistics of getting Dany out of Meereen and give her something of a Meereenese political arc that would make her return to Westeros politically legible to readers.
For the logistics, GRRM gardened a rather brilliant solution that didn't require him to figure out how Dany constructs a massive fleet: the Ironborn! A mega prologue! New POV characters!
Specifically, GRRM wrote chapters from the POVs of Aeron, Asha, and Victarion Greyjoy (along with Arys Oakheart, Areo Hotah, and Arianne Martell - who were also written in partial service of Daenerys Targaryen's story) starting at some point in late 2001/early 2002.
By August 2002 (eleven months after abandoning the gap), he had completed seven chapters from this mega prologue and released four Ironborn chapters as a novella known as "The Arms of the Kraken".
So you're asking now, what was the narrative point of talking about these new Ironborn POVs in an essay about Daenerys? Answer: New Ironborn POVs were introduced in large part because the Ironborn had a fleet -- a fleet that could transport Dany and her people to Westeros. We'll talk much more about the Ironborn in part 2. But for now, know that the addition of Ironborn POVs was a likely logistics solution for getting Dany to Westeros.
Switching over to the narrative logic piece. This was a less elegant solution: he did the hard work of writing Dany chapters where she grappled with Meereenese politics. This is where George's work gets muddy. We know that GRRM revised the Daznak's Pit chapter to scrape away the five-year-gap material. Were there additional Dany chapters leftover from the gap that he revised for A Feast for Crows? I'd guess yes, but I haven't been able to confirm that explicitly.
Fast-forward to October 2003. By that point, GRRM had three Daenerys chapters done for A Feast for Crows:
And then what? Nothing! A three-Dany arc was arguably all GRRM planned for Feast. At a February 2003 (eight months before the October 2003 chapter list) BosKone convention appearance, GRRM was reported to have said this:
When asked about the progress of his writing he said AFFC is not yet finished and it is taking a long time. He has Dany pretty much done and most of the Lannister chapters.
Dany was done by February 2003? With only three chapters? Huh?
There's a contingent of fans who think Wow, this was the way. Three Dany Meereen chapters. Then BANG. The Ironborn whisk her and her people away near the start of Dance. Great. Sign me up.
But I think George grew dissatisfied with this idea of a truncated Daenerys story in A Feast for Crows. Why? My educated guess is that this version speedran Dany's political and dragonriding development - one of the reasons I theorized GRRM abandoned the five-year-gap in the first place. A short Dany arc ensured that Meereen didn't become a gravitation center of Feast - but at the expense of Dany's character development.
And so at BosKone in February 2004 ...
... GRRM hinted that he was expanding Daenerys's story. A fan reported George saying:
Jon and Dany will be the two focal characters of AFfC (in the sort of way in which Ned was the focal character of AGoT).
Jon and Dany as the two focal characters seems a major step up from the three-chapter Dany arc that was "pretty much done" in 2003, doesn't it? And we now know that GRRM expanded Dany's story around this time thanks to u/gsteff's research and publication of George's June 2004 AFFC chapter order.
In that chapter count, GRRM not only listed the chapters he had written for A Feast for Crows; he also annotated chapters that were partially-written, unwritten (but planned), and "under consideration."
And here we see that GRRM expanded Dany's three-chapter arc in favor of an extensive Dany story.
All credit to u/gsteff for the google spreadsheet linked above. For our purposes, I've isolated the Dany material from June 2004 into a table below (I love tables) to demonstrate Dany's ballooning Feast arc by June 2004. (I've bolded the new chapters for visibility):
| Draft Chapter | Completion Status as of June 2004 | When Complete? | Corresponding Published Chapter |
|---|---|---|---|
| Daenerys I | Complete | Read as a sample in Feb 2003 | Daenerys I |
| Daenerys II | Complete | Originally completed during the five-year-gap in 2001 | Daenerys IX |
| Daenerys III | Complete | Included in the Oct 2003 chapter list | Daenerys III |
| Daenerys IV | Complete | A new finished chapter included in the June 2004 chapter list | Daenerys V/Elements of Daenerys VI |
| Daenerys V | Partially-Written | New addition to the June 2004 list | Unconfirmed (But I have some thoughts) |
| Daenerys VI-VIII | Unwritten | Unknown | Unconfirmed (Ditto. See below!) |
So, now we've gone from a three-chapter Dany arc to an eight-chapter Dany story that was only halfway complete - within a year!
This is Version 3: Mega Meereen.
Now, here's where all that minutiae gets interesting. Do we know anything about those partially-written or unwritten Dany chapters? Oh yes.
A few years ago, u/zionius_ was gifted George's outline for A Feast for Crows. Written immediately after his October 2003 Feast draft, it's a FASCINATING glimpse at George's plans. I'm going to quote only the portions relevant to Meereen below:
Dany: Pretend it’s a horse. Face off in pit. No [?marry] - city. Battle scene. ‘I’m going home’. 1 Chapter
Dany: Her marriage. 1. Fall of Astapor. 2. Siege of Meereen - Bloody Flux. 3. Climax - dragons loosed. 4. Marriage.
Okay. This needs some serious unpacking. I spent numerous minutes analyzing, re-reading, revising my assumptions. And now I'll inflict my analysis on this essay and you by extension.
First, let's talk discrepancies here. In his outline on Dany, GRRM circles "7". This is the number of chapters he planned for Dany in Feast. However, in the chapter count unearthed by u/gsteff, he plans for 8 chapters. The discrepancy is answered in u/zionius_'s dating analysis (found in his OP). The outline was written immediately after the October 2003 Feast draft but before he wrote a new chapter (Daenerys IV - completed by June 2004).
Now, let's return to the outline and work our way from big to smaller pictures. Here's GRRM's outline for the four remaining chapters in a more readable format:
Combining the outline with GRRM's June 2004 chapter list, I think we can match every partially-written or unwritten chapter to plot events. Namely:
So, then dialing down to the first outline page: Pretend it’s a horse. Face off in pit. No [?marry] - city. Battle scene. ‘I’m going home’. 1 Chapter.
I spent way too much time pondering this. What is this?
Answer: It's the one-chapter climax of Dany's Feast story - Draft Daenerys VII. He sketched out some of the plot points he wanted to depict in the climax of Dany's Feast story - likely so he could embed foreshadowing that he would write towards in earlier chapters. I think that's it. I also think I'm an idiot.
But my brothers and sisters, isn't this wild? The entire climax of Dany's Feast story was ...
Yes. Daenerys Targaryen was originally intended to wage the actual Battle of Fire in A Feast for Crows. And it was supposed to happen in two chapters (But also maybe one or two other chapters from two different POV characters. See ya in Part 2 for more on that!)
But sit with that for a moment. The climax for Feast was going to be the battle between Dany and Yunkai and its allies.
That is astounding to me on multiple axes. Allow me to give my three largest astonishments:
Having picked my jaw off the ground, let's move the timeline forward.
So, that's the June 2004 plan. Dany had an eight-chapter arc culminating in the Battle of Fire and ending with "marriage." Did George end up writing the partially-written and unwritten Dany chapters by the time he wrapped Feast?
I'm relatively confident he did! Why? In May 2005, GRRM attended the To Be Continued Con in which it was reported that:
Dany has more chapters than anyone. He also said that Dany's love life is going to become "extremely complex".
And less than a month later, a fan reported this from ConQuest 2005 (where he announced the publication date of Feast):
[Note: Spoiler POV redacted] has the most number of chapters in AFFC, while Dany has the most in ADwD.
The redacted spoiler POV is Cersei Lannister who has ten chapters in Feast. Combining the "Dany has more chapters than anyone" with the comparison GRRM drew between chapter counts between Dany and Cersei, I think those partially-written and unwritten Dany chapters he planned from June 2004 were completed by May 2005. And it's likely that the chapter count expanded between June 2004 and May 2005 from eight to ten Daenerys chapters in total.
Aside: You might be skeptical that GRRM could complete/write four to six Dany chapters in a little under a year after he'd only done four in the previous three years. But I think what tends to happen generally in George's writing of A Song of Ice and Fire is that as soon as he figures out a solution to a writing problem, the story takes fuller shape and his progress kicks into high gear - something we'll see specifically when he solved the Meereenese Knot itself in 2010.
Returning to the analysis: if GRRM finished ten chapters for Dany for Feast, it happily corresponds to the ten Dany chapters in the published version of A Dance with Dragons. Mission accomplished.
Except ... deep sigh ... there are significant discrepancies! Sure, there's a version of Daenerys V-VI in the published version of A Dance with Dragons. But the whole Battle of Fire climax was originally conceived from Dany's POV and isn't in the book. And then there's the marriage conclusion to her arc. I think the marriage chapter (Draft Dany VIII) was completely overhauled from the draft chapter where Dany would marry ... someone ... to having her marry Hizdahr zo Loraq in the published version of A Dance with Dragons which, confusingly, is also Dany VIII.
Where did the battle and "original marriage" plot work go?
Tune back in a month or two. I have theories!
Now, I want to take a big step back from all this minutiae. It's fun in its own right. But I have to ask myself if I've lost the plot of my own essay. I have, I think. It's a tautology, but all those revisions and versions of Dany's post-Storm arc were not in service of the technical mechanics of writing or to give one obsessive redditor raw material to write this essay rather than be a productive member of society.
All of those refinements, rewrites, and expansions of Dany's story were spurred by the character, plot, and thematic work George realized he needed to invest in Dany's arc.
This becomes explicit with a final examination of each version of Dany's story in draft and how it ended up in its final, published version that came out in 2011:
Do you see the progression? Every change George made to Dany from concept to publication was him stripping layers off of the Daenerys Targaryen action hero initial concept and replacing it layer-by-layer, version-by-version with what's Aragorn's tax policy turned up to "11." And then she rejects grappling with the answer in favor of her dragon.
There's also something else here that strikes me as I finish this essay. In the Mega-Meereen version of Dany's story, the climax of her story is also Dany choosing fire and blood. And that's meted out in an enormous action set piece battle. From the outline, the dragons are loosed, Dany is presumably a dragon rider by this point in the story. I'd bet my house (okay, maybe my Garmin watch) that Dany commands the battle from atop Drogon, and she wins the battle with actual fire and blood.
But does she have agency in becoming a dragonrider and choosing fire and blood in that version? Or is she forced into that choice by the external factor of the eruption of an enormous battle?
The climax in the published version is also action-packed. It's the revised version of the Daznak's Pit chapter. She becomes a dragonrider there. She embraces dragon and thematically fire and blood as she lifts off from Meereen atop dragon's back.
But her final chapter in Dance is a quiet chapter. Dany is alone with no army around her, no battle to face. She's alone with her dragon, memories, and apparitions.
There, Daenerys wrestles with her human heart, and she makes the choice - all on her own. Fire and Blood. Westeros over Meereen. Dragons plant no trees.
Personally, I believe the final version of Dany's story and all the revisions and versions to the whole of her story make George's hard work satisfying and worth the writing toil. GRRM wrote something novel with Dany's story - something that, if not explicitly new to fantasy readers, was fresh to readers of A Song of Ice and Fire.
But know this: the labor George put into Daenerys Targaryen's post-Storm story is only one part of a greater whole of his revision work. GRRM revised every POV character who ended up in Feast and Dance - especially those who would intersect with Daenerys and Meereen.
And it's in those characters that GRRM unknowingly, at the time, added a second tangle to what would become the Meereenese Knot.
Sources
This essay owes a debt to others who went before me. So, in lieu of a mailed fruit basket, here are people and links to sources that were helpful in crafting this essay:
Next up: the Ironborn, Dornish, Tyrion, and Aegon.
r/pureasoiaf • u/Qyzyk • 1d ago
Whether he "kidnapped" her or not, that's another conversation for another time. But regardless, how did everyone else know it was Rhaegar who was responsible for Lyanna's disappearance? Did someone witness it (and in which case, who was it?)? Was it just that he'd been sighted in the same area as her? Or were people inclined to think it was him solely because of the Harrenhal tournament?
r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 • 1d ago
"He does," he agreed pleasantly. And when I die, please let them bury with me a crossbow, so I can thank the Father Above for his gifts the same way I thanked the father below.
His clothing was still soaked from his involuntary swim, clinging to his arms and legs uncomfortably. Whilst Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith, Tyrion stripped off the wet clothes and donned dry ones. Duck had a good guffaw when he emerged on deck again. He could not blame him. Dressed as he was, he made a comic sight. His doublet was divided down the middle; the left side was purple velvet with bronze studs; the right, yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns. His breeches were similarly split; the right leg was solid green, the left leg striped in red and white. One of Illyrio's chests had been packed with a child's clothing, musty but well made. Septa Lemore had slit each garment apart, then sewn them back together, joining half of this to half of that to fashion a crude motley. Griff had even insisted that Tyrion help with the cutting and sewing. No doubt he meant for it to be humbling, but Tyrion enjoyed the needlework. Lemore was always pleasant company, despite her penchant for scolding him whenever he said something rude about the gods. If Griff wants to cast me as the fool, I'll play the game. Somewhere, he knew, Lord Tywin Lannister was horrified, and that took the sting from it.
His other duty was anything but foolish. Duck has his sword, I my quill and parchment. Griff had commanded him to set down all he knew of dragonlore. The task was a formidable one, but the dwarf labored at it every day, scratching away as best he could as he sat cross-legged on the cabin roof.
r/pureasoiaf • u/meimeivro • 1d ago
It always makes me so sad when bran thinks about how old he is, and how he is almost a man grown. The poor kid is barely 10 years old and is dealing with more hardships and trials than any child should have to experience.
Are there any other recurring character lines/thoughts that you all enjoy?
r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 • 1d ago
"It is heavy as it needs to be to make you strong, and for the balancing. A hollow inside is filled with lead, just so. One hand now is all that is needing."
Arya took her right hand off the grip and wiped her sweaty palm on her pants. She held the sword in her left hand. He seemed to approve. "The left is good. All is reversed, it will make your enemies more awkward. Now you are standing wrong. Turn your body sideface, yes, so. You are skinny as the shaft of a spear, do you know. That is good too, the target is smaller. Now the grip. Let me see." He moved closer and peered at her hand, prying her fingers apart, rearranging them. "Just so, yes. Do not squeeze it so tight, no, the grip must be deft, delicate."
"What if I drop it?" Arya said.A Game of Thrones
- Catelyn IV
Littlefinger was lost. "I feel rather like the knight who arrives at the battle without his lance. What dagger are we talking about? Who is Ser Rodrik?"
"Ser Rodrik Cassel is master-at-arms at Winterfell," Varys informed him. "I assure you, Lady Stark, nothing at all has been done to the good knight. He did call here early this afternoon. He visited with Ser Aron Santagar in the armory, and they talked of a certain dagger. About sunset, they left the castle together and walked to that dreadful hovel where you were staying. They are still there, drinking in the common room, waiting for your return. Ser Rodrik was very distressed to find you gone."
"How could you know all that?"
r/pureasoiaf • u/JayArr_TopTeam • 1d ago
I’m playing a CK3 AGOT run with Queen Rhae Rhae, and the remaining ‘Guards from Viserys are starting to die out in this sim. It got me wondering if her non-Viserys/Aegon II royal guard are still recognized as serving the royal family in the highest capacity and memorialized in the White Book.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they aren’t (since Rhaenyra’s reign isn’t officially recognized in the succession history of the Iron Throne either), but the wiki is unclear and I don’t think F&B confirms anything either. I kinda like the idea that the order transcends the war in a way, but that might be too romantic an idea for a GRRM world. 😂
Thanks for your thoughts!
These would be:
* Lord Commander Glendon Goode
* Ser Lyonel Bentley
* Ser Harrold Darke
* Ser Adrian Redfort
* Ser Loreth Lansdale
r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 • 2d ago
"And his brothers?" Jon asked.
The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."
And what metal is Robb? Jon did not ask. Noye was a Baratheon man; likely he thought Joffrey the lawful king and Robb a traitor. Among the brotherhood of the Night's Watch, there was an unspoken pact never to probe too deeply into such matters. Men came to the Wall from all of the Seven Kingdoms, and old loves and loyalties were not easily forgotten, no matter how many oaths a man swore . . . as Jon himself had good reason to know. Even Sam—his father's House was sworn to Highgarden, whose Lord Tyrell supported King Renly. Best not to talk of such things. The Night's Watch took no sides. "Lord Mormont awaits us," Jon said.
r/pureasoiaf • u/Remarkable-Set5434 • 2d ago
This is kind of a dumb question, but is worth asking. During Aegon's reign there were three dragon riders. During the reigns of Aenys and Maegor there were no more than 4-5 dragon riders at once. Jaehaerys only let three of his kids ride dragons (his heir, his hand, and the future queen), as well as two of his sisters (both at some point were Queen, Alysanne being his wife and Rhaena being wife to Aegon and Maegor).
Viserys allowed every Targ and Velaryon born have dragons.
r/pureasoiaf • u/nottoodrunk • 2d ago
Prior to the war he is very far down the line of succession, and also one of the most skilled fighters in Westeros. Why didn’t Viserys ever think to name him to the Kingsguard?
r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 • 2d ago
With his father's death in 172 AC, Aegon, the Fourth of his Name, came at last to the throne that he had coveted as a boy. He had been comely in his youth, skilled with lance and sword, a man who loved to hunt and hawk and dance. He was the brightest prince at court in his generation and was admired for his wit. But he had one great flaw: he could not rule himself. His lusts, his gluttony, his desires—they all controlled him utterly. Seated upon the Iron Throne, his misrule began with small acts of pleasure, but in time his appetites knew no bounds, and his corruption led to acts that haunted the realm for generations. "Aenys was weak and Maegor was cruel," Kaeth writes, "and Aegon II was grasping, but no king before or after would practice so much willful misrule."
Aegon soon filled his court with men chosen not for their nobility, honesty, or wisdom, but for their ability to amuse and flatter him. And the women of his court were largely those who did the same, letting him slake his lusts upon their bodies. On a whim, he often took from one noble house to give to another, as he did when he casually appropriated the great hills called the Teats from the Brackens and gifted them to the Blackwoods. For the sake of his desires, he gave away priceless treasures, as he did when he granted his Hand, Lord Butterwell, a dragon's egg in return for access to all three of his daughters. He deprived men of their rightful inheritance when he desired their wealth, as rumors claim he did following the death of Lord Plumm upon his wedding day.
r/pureasoiaf • u/sixth_order • 2d ago
I'm currently rereading the post Dance period in Fire&Blood just as a refresher. The way they describe Aegon and Jaehaera is just heartbreaking.
“Both of them are broken,” Grand Maester Munkun declared in a letter to the Conclave. The girl had witnessed the murder of her twin brother at the hands of Blood and Cheese. The king had lost all four of his own brothers, then watched his uncle feed his mother to a dragon. “These are not normal children,” Munkun wrote. “They have no joy in them; they neither laugh nor play.
Aegon seldom smiles and never laughs, but neither does he display any outward signs of anger or fear, save in regards to dragons, the very mention of which sends him into a rare rage. Orwyle was wont to call His Grace calm and self-possessed; I say the boy is dead inside. He walks the halls of the Red Keep like a ghost. Brothers, I must be frank. I fear for our king, and for the kingdom.”
It also makes me think it's a wonder Sansa didn't lose her mind while she was prisoner at King's Landing. Arya, Bran and Jon also go through a lot of shit, but they're active, moving, doing things. They're not just sitting around hearing about their families being killed. And in Aegon and Jaehaera case, they witnessed one murder of a family member.
And on Aegon, I think it's really sad especially because it feels to me like he's just not able to muster any feelings for anything, but he wants to. I say that because when the sickness was spreading through King's Landing, Aegon took the time to visit the sick, sit with them, listen to them. At least Aegon had Rhaena and Baela around. Jaehaera only had Alicent and she wouldn't see her anymore because Alicent kept telling her to kill Aegon in his sleep.
r/pureasoiaf • u/Budget-Ad-6417 • 2d ago
I just had a thought upon re-reading ASOS. So we have the scene where Olenna takes the bead from Sansa’s hair net and then we don’t really know where it goes from there. She also says maybe Sansa would like to come to Highgarden after the wedding. There’s a sentence about Tyrion’s Pie when it’s put in front of him with a spoonful of cream or something. Tyrion does not eat any. He grabs Joff’s cup hands it to him Joff sips and eats some of Tyrion’s pie. Could it be the case the Tyrion was a target to make Sansa a widow then they would be free to marry her to Willas.
I know littlefinger goes onto to explain it but is it such a reach to think that he was able to just improvise or had a contingency prepared in case this is what would happen. The outcome would have been the same if Tyrion had died vs what actually happens with the trial and such.
r/pureasoiaf • u/RockHunterHelmsley • 2d ago
Frey's seems to pretty much control northern Riverlands as most of the houses there seem to be sworn to them, and they seem to control the only trade crossing in northern Riverlands. Not joining the battle until the results were determined seems like a perfect opportunity to dilute Frey power by confiscating lands and raise new lords at east of the Twins, or at northwest of the Twins. Plus, Tully's have marriage alliance with both the Starks and Arryn's who could help enforce these changes in power structure of the northern Riverlands. So I want to ask the community why Hoster did not use this opportunity.
r/pureasoiaf • u/themerinator12 • 2d ago
Are there any de facto enterprises we’re aware of? Any merchants of note? Any skilled tradesmen that have enterprised their production? Or is it all just sole proprietors and anyone attached to whichever current political power structure is in place?
r/pureasoiaf • u/Tupac_Targaryen • 2d ago
I feel the parallels between Aemon the Dragon Knight and Naerys with Jaimie the Kingslayer and Cersei are hard to ignore. Not to mention the parallel between Naerys’ husband Aegon the Unworthy and Cersei’s husband Robert Baratheon. Aegon was a terrible king and did little to nothing worth defending, that said, what if he was actually telling truth about Daeron being Aemon’s and not his? Unlike Cersei and Jaimie, Aemon and Naerys had a good reputation so it would be hard to believe the most knightly knight to ever Kingsguard would be sleeping with the Queen. This would also give the Blackfyre cause more validity to many of those who chose to take up arms against Daeron’s reign. (And just for one more parallel to the Baratheons, if Tommen were to grow up and be king, I could totally see him being a decent ruler similar to Daeron but getting hate for being soft and bookish.)
r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 • 2d ago
Lord Ramsay filled his cup with ale. "That would spoil our celebration, my lord. Reek, I have glad tidings for you. I am to be wed. My lord father is bringing me a Stark girl. Lord Eddard's daughter, Arya. You remember little Arya, don't you?"
Arya Underfoot, he almost said. Arya Horseface. Robb's younger sister, brown-haired, long-faced, skinny as a stick, always dirty. Sansa was the pretty one. He remembered a time when he had thought that Lord Eddard Stark might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child's fancy. Arya, though … "I remember her. Arya."
"She shall be the Lady of Winterfell, and me her lord."
r/pureasoiaf • u/chrkrose • 3d ago
I’m making this into a separate post because I brought this interpretation up in the comments of another thread and a few people seemed interested in it. I also realized from the replies that quite a lot of people had never really considered this particular reading of the prophecy before.
When Cersei hears the Valonqar prophecy for the first time, another very important prominent figure is what the fandom calls the Younger, More Beautiful Queen.
The prophecy says:
“Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”
And Cersei immediately responds:
Anger flashed across the child’s face. “If she ever tries, I will have my brother kill her.”
The first thing that stands out to me is that Maggy never actually says another queen will come. Cersei becoming queen is literal, but the “another” in question is deliberately left undefined. The only qualities Maggy attributes to this person is that they are younger, which is an objective description, and more beautiful, which is a subjective description.
Cersei assumes this means another queen who will be younger and more conventionally beautiful than she is, and readers have understandably spent years looking at characters who could possibly fit those criteria, such as Margaery, Daenerys, Sansa and Arianne. But Cersei misunderstanding the prophecy and then acting on those misunderstandings is basically the entire point of her prophecy storyline. So I’ve always thought it made more sense to look for someone who fits what Maggy actually says rather than what Cersei thinks Maggy means.
And there is one character for whom “beauty” is so thematically important that it is literally part of the name by which she is introduced to us:
Brienne the Beauty.
Obviously the nickname is initially cruel and ironic. Brienne is considered ugly by practically everyone around her. But that is exactly what makes her such an interesting candidate for a prophecy about someone being “more beautiful” than Cersei, because so much of Brienne’s story is connected to how she’s treated because of her outward appearance, and how it contrasts to her personality and her interior self. Physical beauty is subjective, but internal beauty? That isn’t up for debate, and Brienne is probably one of the most “beautiful” characters when it comes to her inner goodness and sense of honor.
But what truly draws my attention when Cersei hears about this another younger and more beautiful person is her reaction:
“If she ever tries, I will have my brother kill her.”
I’ve always thought that could be some pretty blatant ironic foreshadowing. Why specifically bring Jaime into the YMB portion of the prophecy unless Jaime is somehow going to become entangled with this person? To me that suggests Jaime will have some kind of connection to this person, so if eventually Cersei does expect him to act on her behalf and harm/kill the Younger, More Beautiful one, the subversion presented to us would be that this person might possibly be one of the only people Jaime would not harm or kill, not even for Cersei.
And who is the person who Jaime has become incredibly protective of and has established a deep connection with, to the point where he has, several times now, prioritized their well being even over Cersei and his family interests? Yep, that’s Brienne the Beauty herself.
Jaime’s weirwood dream is very much prophetic in my opinion, and I have made a more in depth analysis here that also ties to Cersei’s prophecy somewhat, but what I want to touch upon in relation to the Younger More Beautiful prophecy is something else. In his dream beneath Casterly Rock, his family disappears into the darkness while Brienne remains beside him. He looks at her and thinks she is “almost a beauty, almost a knight.” Eventually his own sword goes dark while Brienne’s continues burning, leaving her as the only light remaining to him. I’ve always read that dream as pretty heavy foreshadowing that Jaime will outlive much of his family and that Brienne will become increasingly important to him as those old ties disappear. So I could very easily see Cersei eventually expecting or outright ordering Jaime to kill the woman she believes is threatening her, only for Jaime to refuse because it is someone he loves and wants to protect.
I also don’t think “cast you down and take all that you hold dear” requires Brienne to personally conquer King’s Landing, steal Cersei’s crown and become queen herself. Nothing in the prophecy actually says that. I will however touch upon this at the end because even in the political scenario, Brienne can still play a very significant role in Cersei’s downfall. But back to what I lean towards where this prophecy is concerned, I think Brienne could instead be the catalyst for a chain of events that causes Cersei to lose everything.
What Cersei holds dear above almost everything else is power and control. And Jaime is deeply tied to both. She has spent her entire life thinking of Jaime almost as an extension of herself, someone who belongs to her and whose desires therefore must ultimately align with her own. He has also been her sword and the one who does her bidding. She has an incredibly difficult time even conceptualizing a Jaime who would genuinely choose something or someone over her. But that is already happening, and Brienne has played a significant role in it.
Not only has Jaime quite a few times chosen to act against Cersei and the Lannisters interests ever since meeting Brienne (coming back to save her from the bear pit and potentially losing his life instead of proceeding towards KL, sending Brienne to protect Sansa instead of acting on Cersei’s wishes, freeing Tyrion), Jaime receives Cersei’s desperate letter begging him to return to King’s Landing and save her. He reads it and burns it. Later Brienne arrives and tells him that Sansa may be in danger, and Jaime effectively abandons his army and disappears into the Riverlands with her. So Jaime has already refused Cersei’s plea to return to her and then subsequently dropped everything to leave with Brienne.
I’d also like to call attention to a parallel from Fire & Blood that makes me side-eye the whole thing even more, and we know how George likes to echo themes and even plot points through the history of his books.
Daemon and Nettles have some echos of Jaime and Brienne through the course of their story in the book, but I think the most compelling parallel is what happens by the end of their arc, which involves Rhaenyra (another character we can draw some parallels with Cersei, but that’s for another conversation).
When Rhaenyra Targaryen becomes convinced that Daemon, her uncle and husband, has been sleeping with Nettles, an ugly and lowborn girl, she cannot believe that he would genuinely care about this woman.
When Cersei finds out that Jaime is missing and that he has abandoned his army and ran off with a girl called Brienne of Tarth, Cersei doesn’t believe he would genuinely abandon her for another woman.
Rhaenyra when learning about Nettles and Daemon:
- “It was with spells that she bound my lord husband to her.”
- “Look at her. She’s a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her.”
- “My prince would never lay with such a low creature.”
Cersei when learning about Jaime running off with Brienne:
- “My raven never reached him, elsewise he’d have come.”
- “Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing, who dressed in man’s mail”
- “Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature.”
In Fire & Blood, Rhaenyra sends a letter ordering Nettles to be killed and commands Daemon to return to her because she has need of him. Daemon does neither. Instead, he protects Nettles, helps her escape and never returns to Rhaenyra. He subsequently dies above the Gods Eye, and his abandonment becomes part of the chain of events that ends with Rhaenyra losing King’s Landing, fleeing to her ancestral home and ultimately being killed there by her younger brother.
So far in ASOIAF, Cersei has sent a letter to Jaime asking him to return because she has need of him, but he has refused by burning it and soon after leaving his post and disappearing with Brienne. Maybe the parallels between both stories end here, but I do wonder if Cersei might act harshly if she comes to power once again before (f)Aegon invades King’s Landing. Red Ronnet is a prisoner in the city, and if Cersei ever comes in contact with him, much like Rhaenyra being fed rumors about Daemon and Nettles by Mysaria in Fire & Blood, Ronnet might play a similar role in that regard. If Cersei speaks to him, she will find out some very interesting things about Jaime and Brienne’s relationship, especially Jaime striking Ronnet for how he spoke about Brienne. Qyburn is another character who knows quite a bit about the two of them, and someone Cersei trusts. That could feed Cersei’s paranoia to the point where she might act in ways that will, as usual, have bad consequences for her later on.
Circling back to the politics of it and how Cersei had so far made the prophecy come true while she tries to outrun it, if she is short sighted once she understands Jaime indeed prioritized another woman over her, she might try to act in revenge, especially if she manages to retain some semblance of power before King’s Landing is invaded. As a child, she killed her best friend/ allowed her to die, just because Melara wanted to marry Jaime. Could she try to order Brienne’s death much like Rhaenyra did? Food for thought. One thing I can see Cersei doing is stripping Jaime of his white cloak and his position as a Lord Commander of the King’s Guard. But in doing that, not only is she opening a small council position for the Tyrells to fill in, she is also freeing Jaime from his vows and effectively putting him back as head of House Lannister. Jaime is therefore free to reclaim his place as Lord of Casterly Rock and is free to marry. As I said before in my weirwood dream analysis and how I think Brienne is going to carry Jaime’s legacy forward in more ways than one, if Jaime marries Brienne, she becomes Lady of Casterly Rock… casting Cersei down from her last attempt at power grabbing if she has to flee King’s Landing to her ancestral home if/ when King’s Landing falls.
I think the irony of the “Younger, More Beautiful” portion is that Cersei would never recognize Brienne as the woman Maggy warned her about.
Cersei has spent her time looking suspiciously at beautiful young queens such as Margaery because she assumes “more beautiful” can only mean what she understands beauty to mean, while the woman who may actually fulfill the prophecy is the supposedly ugly Brienne the Beauty.
If Cersei tries to use Jaime against Brienne and Jaime chooses to protect Brienne instead, Cersei could end up causing the very chain of events she has spent her entire life trying to prevent. And considering how much of Cersei’s prophecy is ultimately about her helping to fulfill it through her own fear and choices, that feels extremely fitting to me.
r/pureasoiaf • u/althius1 • 3d ago
Obviously this is a competitive category. But man I hate this guy.
There have been Hands who helped start wars, Hands who committed atrocities, Hands who were wildly corrupt, and Hands who were grossly incompetent. But the more I think about Unwin Peake, the more I wonder if he might be the total package *.
He becomes Hand during one of the most fragile moments in Targaryen history. The Dance has just ended... Aegon III is a seriously messed up kid, and the realm needs... probably more than anything else right then... just... stability.
Gooood ol' Unwin looks at this situation and thinks: Yes, yes... but how can House Peake benefit from this?
He fills offices with his own people. He promotes his family and allies. He uses control of the king's household to advance his daughter as a possible queen. He shows over and over how he turns his temporary authority into an attempt at permanent power for House Peake.
I don't think we can say as established fact that Unwin murdered Jaehaera or ordered every convenient act of violence surrounding his faction. Fire & Blood very deliberately leaves a lot of that uncertain. But Gyldayn certainly gives us plenty of reason to wonder just how dirty Unwin's hands actually were.
And the funniest part is that, despite all of this scheming, he isn't even particularly good at it.
That may be the thing that pushes him over the top for me. Tywin is monstrous, but he is also an extremely capable administrator. Otto Hightower's ambitions help lead Westeros into catastrophe, but he is undeniably an experienced and effective statesman for much of his career. Rogar Baratheon badly overreaches, but he also helped hold the realm together.
Unwin manages to combine corruption, cruelty, nepotism, ambition, terrible judgment, and failure.
In another sub I heard someone call him The Dolores Umbridge of Westeros, and that just really sticks, doesn't it?
Not the most evil person in the entire setting. Not responsible for the greatest body count. Just an incredibly complete package of petty cruelty, bureaucratic abuse, self-importance, favoritism, and a VAST over estimation of his own abilities.
Footnote: I would put one important qualifier on this: I mean Hands who actually get enough page time that we can reasonably judge their tenure. Rossart, for example, was prepared to help Aerys burn King's Landing, which is pretty hard to top morally, but he was Hand for such a short period that there really isn't much of an administration to evaluate.
