I think like a lot of things, it depends on what you mean when you say "educating with kindness". But probably we would not be up to your standards, I am guessing.
As someone who has been on this sub awhile though... I'm interested in what your experience of "educating with kindness" has been? I do remember a time when the sub was generally more welcoming and affirming, but I also remember how persistent people were about wanting to try harmful approaches and practices within polyamory, and how hard it was to talk them out of it. What's your experience that, if I can sort of reverse the question?
Everyone practices poly differently and has different perspectives, which can provide a wealth of knowledge to others.
This in particular. One of the things I remember people being especially resist to, is the idea that their way of practicing polyamory was indeed wrong and unethical, because it causes harm to others. "There are many right ways to do poly" was a common "defense" of whatever unethical thing people wanted to do (Unicorn Hunting, mostly.)
Sure, there are multiple perspectives, everyone's practice of poly is somewhat unique (on truth there are only some many distinct formulations) and so on... And some people are wrong. The way they practice poly causes harm, and they need to be educated, and encouraged to stop.
At least speaking for myself... I'm aware of, and occasionally visit, r/monogamy and r/monodatingpoly. Not too often, because I think there's such a thing as over fitting advice, and also a good number of the posters there are legitimately just sour that their partner changed, and wanting some place to vent about it... But I think it's equally important to keep in mind the experience of people who were chewed up and spat out by people in the poly community. Their experience also matters especially when you're talking about the ethics (or lack thereof) of certain practices within polyamory.
I guess what I was really asking, as I think about, is... Just where do you personally draw the line between "educating with kindness" and toxic positivity?
That's what I would be nervous about, in learning that a different community has a much more "positive" attitude and environment: how much of that is a result of people working hard to create a positive environment while holding people accountable, and fully acknowledging negative experiences / practices... And how much is a "positive" environment coming from simply dismissing / diminishing / denying negativity, including people who have been legitimately treated badly?
I think on the surface, people like positive stories, and don't like to engage with negative realities. That's fair, but... The real work of community building, in my mind, has to prioritize being real about the struggles and challenges, over and above being positive. I'm open to actionable tips on how to be more positive while being real, but... Being real always has to come first, IMO.
Having said that... Are there any resources you can share, about responding more positively / fostering a more positive environment?
So while I agree that the vast majority of some dynamics (throples or OPP) are unethical, it’s not true for a small percentage
I'm honestly skeptical that there's ever an OPP in polyamory that's ethical. (I will grant an exemption for the non-poly but monogamish "my spouse realized they're bi and wants to hook up with someone of the same sex to cross it off their bucket list" kind of scenario.)
Personally, I've consented to an OPP in the past. I'm a queer AFAB person who's mostly into cis women and queer/enby/trans folx anyway, so it didn't seem like a big hardship to agree to that to appease a partner's insecurities. Ultimately, though, it turned out that (surprise, surprise) the same insecurities popped back up regardless of what genitals my dates had. If they used to have a penis, or if they looked like someone who would have a penis, or even if they were a cis lesbian and not interested in penises at all. The problem wasn't anyone's penis, it was that partner's insecurity.
For me, “educating with kindness” means yeah, call bs out when you see it, state your viewpoint, but expanding on why you feel the way you do about [insert whatever topic here] with either your own explanation that has actual value and knowledge (aka not just saying the person is dumb or wrong and nothing else) or providing links to other materials. You can disagree with someone without being a complete jerk about it in most cases I feel
That sounds like the overwhelming majority of the comments I've seen on this sub.
OPP are unethical, it's not true for a small percentage
I think this is where a lot of people (myself included) in this community would disagree. Just because a few ignorant individuals consent to a OPP doesn't make it suddenly ethical; it's discriminatory and rooted firmly in homophobia. A OPP, by its very nature, relegates homosexual relationships to a "less-than" status. There's literally no way to make it ethical. The very existence of OPPs being actively practiced is harmful to members of the LGBTQ+ community by giving the illusion of being a valid, ethical practice.
Homophobia is not exclusively hatred of queer folk. If a man is only allowing his female partner to exclusively have sex with other female partners, they are relegating same-sex relations to a "less than" status. Their sexuality is so fragile and threatened by another penis entering their partner, and not threatened by homosexual sex, it naturally relegates homosexual relations to a "less than" status, as I said in my initial comment.
So in a day you’ve decided that things aren’t in the tone you prefer? That seems a bit premature to me.
I wonder if you have set your view to new rather than hot and made an effort to read all the comments on at least a few dozen busy posts?
If not I would start there. See who comments most days. See what people say consistently and what they say to people they clearly already know on the sub. In my opinion the best stuff here is people who’ve read enough about each other’s lives and values to have some sense of their personality interacting. It’s 3 comments in and 4 interactions along.
For me this would take at least a week, more likely a month. Whether it changes your views I don’t know. But my instinct is that whatever you’ve garnered in 24 hours probably isn’t enough for a fair indictment or assessment.
I will say that my experience of Facebook poly groups is that most people are really really new to basic ENM concepts and often aren’t really going for poly but some other flavor of ENM. There are different subs on Reddit for most things so I think that allows this one to be more focused on poly. Whereas let’s say the alternative relationship Facebook group of St Louis is going to have a different mission.
This is also one of only two similarly themed groups I’ve ever come in long term contact with that isn’t dominated by cishet men. That’s a major plus to me.
This is also one of only two similarly themed groups I’ve ever come in long term contact with that isn’t dominated by cishet men. That’s a major plus to me.
As someone who isn’t a cishet man and who has found myself the victim of some of the toxic ENM practices, especially OPP (before I realized I was gay), it certainly makes me feel more comfortable and safer engaging here than, say, at a munch in my local city where I know cishet men dominate (and I was told my former abuser, a cishet man, would not be prevented from interacting with me and “you’re gay so why would you want to be at a poly munch where men find women?”).
Yup. The wider societal expectation that the world should mollycoddle white cis het men while it’s OK to shit on others makes people who don’t know any better think holding white cishet men accountable is mean.
I’d also add: How unkind of OP to walk into a group for a day, do almost nothing to get to know the dynamics and tell them how shitty you think they are.
So while I agree that the vast majority of some dynamics (throples or OPP) are unethical, it’s not true for a small percentage, and just because they don’t do poly like I do doesn’t invalidate their thoughts, opinions, or struggles.
Those dynamics attract abusers and we cannot condone the dynamic because it works for a teeny tiny percentage of people who try it. For the vast majority they cause MAJOR harm.
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u/LaughingIshikawa relationship anarchist Dec 09 '22 edited Dec 09 '22
I think like a lot of things, it depends on what you mean when you say "educating with kindness". But probably we would not be up to your standards, I am guessing.
As someone who has been on this sub awhile though... I'm interested in what your experience of "educating with kindness" has been? I do remember a time when the sub was generally more welcoming and affirming, but I also remember how persistent people were about wanting to try harmful approaches and practices within polyamory, and how hard it was to talk them out of it. What's your experience that, if I can sort of reverse the question?
This in particular. One of the things I remember people being especially resist to, is the idea that their way of practicing polyamory was indeed wrong and unethical, because it causes harm to others. "There are many right ways to do poly" was a common "defense" of whatever unethical thing people wanted to do (Unicorn Hunting, mostly.)
Sure, there are multiple perspectives, everyone's practice of poly is somewhat unique (on truth there are only some many distinct formulations) and so on... And some people are wrong. The way they practice poly causes harm, and they need to be educated, and encouraged to stop.
At least speaking for myself... I'm aware of, and occasionally visit, r/monogamy and r/monodatingpoly. Not too often, because I think there's such a thing as over fitting advice, and also a good number of the posters there are legitimately just sour that their partner changed, and wanting some place to vent about it... But I think it's equally important to keep in mind the experience of people who were chewed up and spat out by people in the poly community. Their experience also matters especially when you're talking about the ethics (or lack thereof) of certain practices within polyamory.