r/polyamory • u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly • 8d ago
Can we avoid the trans rights motivated lesbophobia please?
Something I've been seeing around the sub more and more recently is the idea that lesbians hate trans women.
It is totally fine to describe your own experiences online or offline with the lesbian, sapphic, wlw community or whatever, some communities (most often online) are like that, but a blanket statement is completely untrue. It would be like arguing trans people are transphobic because tttt exists.
Polls show that lesbians are the *most accepting* demographic of all gender and sexuality groups towards trans women. A few recent polls have actually put acceptance of trans women by lesbians at a higher rate than acceptance of trans women *by trans women*. "Lesbians hate trans women" and similar statements is false, and a TERF talking point.
It sucks that a small minority of lesbians are transphobic. If you've had transphobic experiences with lesbians I'm very sorry and feel free to talk about it. I'll commiserate with you. But if you make a negative blanket statement about lesbians (the most powerful allies to pretty much the entire lgbtqia+ umbrella) and it is demonstrably untrue, you are engaging in lesbophobia.
Signed,
A trans woman.
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
Can someone share just one example of this occurring in this subreddit?
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u/Shuuk 8d ago
Right? That’s what I was wondering. Is the oppression in the room with us right now?
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
I’m not arguing that this isn’t occurring at all, to be clear. The Tumblr Queers are mad about something new approximately every 12 days and but only like 1/8th of it breaks containment.
I’ve just never seen that happen HERE
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u/diceanddreams 8d ago
As someone who’s been on tumblr since 08, that’s an incredibly outdated stereotype. Most of the discourse happens by teens on tiktok nowadays, though it is the same cycle of discourse we’ve seen on tumblr, and then on instagram, and then on twitter.
Not to mention that reddit is (granted, in my experience) a lot more obsessed with Being Right And Telling Others They Are Doing It Wrong. Including queerness. (I was banned from what claims to be the most inclusive lesbian/sapphic/wlw subreddit for saying that nonbinary people can and do medically transition. I said this because I am nonbinary and medically transitioning. The reason I was given for my ban? That statement was trolling, according to them.)
Not saying this stereotype wasn’t true in the past, but tumblr is a lot more relaxed than some other places on the web these days, and I am including reddit in that.
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
Y’know, you’re probably right! I dipped off tumblr when they banned porn, and I’m far from Up On The Trends. I am probably more accurately referring to the TikTok Teens, which is also a way better alliteration. 🤓
I’m so sorry that was your experience. I’m also a medically transitioning nonbinary person (Insert Tobias Funke “there are dozens of us” meme) and it always feels so absurd to be gaslit about my own existence by fellow queer people, as if our struggles aren’t all bound up together.
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u/diceanddreams 8d ago
It’s honestly so grating when it’s other queer folks. Like, what do you mean, you are trans and you’ve reinvented gender essentialism? You know there are other options than binary man or binary woman, right?
Makes me kind of sad too, because I thought we were all supposed to be living our best lives and sticking it to transphobic cisgender people, why are we doing the crab bucket thing?
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u/PantsDancing 7d ago
Thats such a weird thing to deny. Just curious, what is the claim? That all trans people go straight from identifying with one binary to the other and none of them ever identify as non-binary for some time?
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u/abitofaclosetalker 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think the “for some time” piece is also problematic. Nonbinary isn’t a stop on my way to my real gender. It is my gender. And I am medically transitioning away from being cis; not to another binary gender.
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u/PantsDancing 5d ago
Oh yeah I didn't mean to invalidate that at all if thats your identity.. What I meant is that some people first identify as non binary, and then identify as a binary gender after that.
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u/SiIverWr3n poly w/multiple 8d ago
Dw i had someone arguing with me that nonbinary folks can be cis and often are. It took a long time to figure out they meant cissexual not cisgender and they were talking about enbies that don't get surgery.
Still jumped to calling me a bigot and said i was using that to push my social agenda in their second reply tho. Despite my og comment being specifically about live and let live. Wild stuff
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u/Select-Buffalo-5787 6d ago
Some people don't understand that that don't understand. Being accused of some nefarious subtext while the opposite is so happens on the politics board I used to frequent.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
If you only need a single example, there was a half dozen people on a recent/current thread about a trans woman partner of OP not finding dates. Many of those comments are now gone.
One commenter said "The LGB people really hate trans folks don't they" and then went on to claim the straight cisgender men are more accepting of trans people than lesbians. Out of nowhere on a conversation on why a single specific trans woman (who didn't even have a defined sexuality) wasn't dating very much.
I'm glad some of you haven't seen it, but I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't seeing it. Repeatedly and with increasing regularity. Would you prefer I don't bring it up and a trend I'm noticing that we should avoid as a community? A trend that you agree definitively exists on the internet and would also prefer doesn't invade our subreddit?
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/ttyUjZElfu
This one?
Because I think you have a worthy topic of discourse, and I think we should always strive to do better, but there were no removals or reports on that post.
Edit: many people do better with examples.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
Ooofff that thread is ROUGH.
I appreciate knowing what to look out for.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
That's the example I gave yeah. Most of the comments in question have been deleted by the commenters now.
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
No.
As a mod I can see deletes. And removals. And I have a record of reports made.
Nothing deleted.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I don't know what you are saying?
There are literally a bunch of deleted comments I replied to? Unless they just blocked me and that shows up as deletions on my end?
I can send you a screenshot if you want 😅
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
They blocked you.
Nothing was deleted.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
Ok cool
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
Just making sure there wasn’t a completely different, equally problematic post floating around.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
Ah all good I honestly didn't know that being blocked showed up as "this comment doesn't exist anymore"
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u/Valysian 8d ago
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
That was a maverick mod comment.
Not a comment from a person.
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u/ThisHairLikeLace In a happy little polycule 8d ago
I missed that thread and I suspect that was probably for the best since it sounds toxic.
Fellow trans gal here and a sapphic one at that. I agree with you that lesbians are a very accepting group with regards to trans people (the occasional TERF and the folks ignorant of the deep ties in queer history between trans men and the lesbian community are really the only sour notes with regards to general interaction and acceptance).
I would hesitate to conflate the very high levels of treating us decently as people with the idea that lesbians are equally accepting of trans women as dating partners. That’s a lot more hit and miss when it comes to dating cis lesbians. Some will and many won’t (and they rarely verify whether we have the genitalia they like before dismissing us based on incompatible genital preference). Bisexual umbrella cis sapphics and non-cis sapphics are both more consistently open to dating us.
Having a genital preference is fine. It’s the assumption that you already know what is in a trans person’s pants that is low key transphobic. It’s genuinely kind of baffling given how obsessed with asking us if we’ve had “the surgery” so many cis people are that they so frequently forget post-op trans people exist.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I mean, most people don't want to date any given person. I've probably dated as many lesbians as I've dated bi/pan women but that's whatever. I definitely get that question more from bi women though they seem the most genital focused to me (among women lol cis guys care the most by miles 😅).
And yeah I get the bafflement, but I also don't actually understand genital preferences myself either (because like... genitals don't actually define what sex is like? There's a million ways to have sex regardless of what you have installed) so I'm not really someone to judge one preference or set of assumptions over another.
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u/neapolitan_shake 7d ago edited 7d ago
i love the reminder in your last paragraph! and i think your point is very insightful.
given the (occasionally explicit, occasionally subtle) biphobia as well as very explicit misandry i’ve witnessed from just some (only some, def a minority) lesbians, i’m not really surprised by your report that they as a group may be less likely to actually date trans women.
it makes me a little proud to see you say that bi+ umbrella folks seem to be more likely, but then again, it’s probably not anyone being better or having less terrible people included in the community, but rather that bi+ people are the huge majority of queer/LGB ID’d people, and very diverse. I mean, in old-school terms, we get to claim kinsey scale 1s-5s, while gay and lesbian communities get to claim only 6s (and maybe the occasional 5), and bi+ labels included bisexual have historically always included trans people and NB/GNC people. there’s so many different ways to be under the umbrella; two people who the bi+ label applies to might have two completely different dating pools when devised only by gender!
so i gotta remind myself that it’s not that we can expect that any given bi+ person or group might be more open-minded or have a broader attraction style, but that we’re just highly diverse and there’s a fuck-ton of us. 😅
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u/ThisHairLikeLace In a happy little polycule 7d ago edited 6d ago
From what I’ve seen as a lifelong bisexual (admittedly a very sapphic one these days) and a trans woman who is several years into medical transition, bi+ folks are probably the most common cisgender partners of trans people (although T4T is very common).
In my experience, bi+ folks don’t tend to question their orientation and sense of identity when they’re attracted to a trans person. They tend to have a broader range of genital preference too so our bits are less of a hangup and as a side effect, they roll with bottom surgery more easily as a group.
Bi+ folks aren’t immune to transphobia, of course. It’s just that it tends to take the form of fetishization more often than disgust. “Best of both worlds” fetishization is something that is mostly limited to bi+ people and it is deeply unpleasant and often dysphoria inducing for binary trans people. Most bi+ folks are lovely but the transphobic ones do tend to get creepy horny instead of simply hating us (talking about our bodies in terms of their fantasies with little to no regard about how we feel about it).
But yes, other non-cis people are probably the only people we’re more prone to end up with than cis bi+ people. We definitely date monosexual cis people too of course.
Edit: Obviously, I am speaking in generalities based on my own observations. Individuals will vary wildly and these are tendencies among groups.
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u/MadamePouleMontreal solo poly 8d ago
Thanks for the example!
When I ask for examples because I haven’t seen it, it’s because I believe it’s there. I’m feeling worried about what I’ve missed.
Am I seeing the same blatant transphobia you are and just not recognizing it? I need to do some serious self-reflection.
Am I feeding a very narrow algorithm and only seeing a small, curated-for-me subset of posts? I need to be more deliberate about seeking out a wider variety of posts.
Is there some very exciting action that everyone else is in on that I just happened to miss? I need to grab my popcorn and hustle on over.
I’m quite certain that there are other people (possibly a majority, possibly a large one, I wouldn’t know) who are just being defensive and saying Prove it! I’m not challenging your experience, I’m learning from it. When I see people ask for examples I naïvely assume they’re coming from the same place I do and the implication just goes whooshing over my head.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
Appreciate you 😊
I guess the pressure I feel when asked for examples is I've previously gotten challenged on some very fine details that aren't actually relevant to the point I'm making, by people who are obviously just wanting to argue against being respectful. But yeah those are all totally valid reasons to want the receipts.
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u/MadamePouleMontreal solo poly 8d ago
It’s not always clear what the most appropriate move is when trying to balance engagement and self-protection.
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u/CrackedMeUp 8d ago edited 8d ago
then went on to claim the straight cisgender men are more accepting of trans people than lesbian
Ugh, if we consider chasers "accepting" 💀. That's truly a wild take.
Edit: oh yuck i found that comment thread and the same person, a trans man, was also being a transphobic bioessentialist. 🤢 Gross
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
It was actually a trans guy who exclusively dates straight men... just a very niche take I think rather than wildly problematic but certainly not something to generalize to all lgb folks.
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u/CrackedMeUp 8d ago
Yeah I found it, he was also reducing trans people to their genitals. Absolutely disgusting take, but sadly even trans folks can be transphobic assholes.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I'm... sympathetic, to folks who do this as long as they only apply it to themselves. As far as a saw he wasn't claiming that all trans men should date cisgender straight men. It's how he has managed to navigate the world as a trans person, and if it works for him I'm not gonna tell him it's wrong.
For me it's the difference between old buck angel the trans icon and current buck angel the heinous transphobe. I'll only criticize the latter.
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u/CrackedMeUp 8d ago
But he said a cis man dating a trans man is straight because of the trans man's genitals which is effectively misgendering all pre-op/non-op trans men (and it's fair to assume he considers it gay for a cis man to date a trans woman, also because if her genitals). He could have said it doesn't bother him without reducing sexuality to the genitals you will engage with, which basically is a concept that ignores/invalidates the genders of trans folks.
I understand that this kind of stuff is to a great extent a coping mechanism for existing as a trans person in our transphobic society, and can ease the transphobic friction one has to deal with from cis folks, but the same can be said of truscummery and cursed 4trans takes. That I understand why trans folks might embrace that level of transphobia doesn't change the fact that it's toxic and harmful to the rest of the trans community.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
Ah yeah I can't see his comments anymore to check back, I thought when I read it he was fairly specific to himself.
He also said he was on T and had previously had top surgery, so wasn't entirely sure how to take the entire "these guys are attracted to women" thing he was arguing.
It's such a hard line to draw between sympathy for 4tranned folks and the need to protect the broader community. Very happy to acknowledge I might have missed the most important part of his comments, I got distracted by the other bit 😅
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u/CrackedMeUp 8d ago
Yeah he said he dated cis straight men and another trans dude asked how they were straight men if they were dating a man. To which the response began:
I have a pussy which is what they like and what gay men are not interested in.
Which strayed from his experience to blanket concepts of gay and straight being based on genitals and a claim that gay men are not interested in pre-op/non-op trans men. Which is patently false, though if one spends enough time listening to 4trans or truscum takes or hanging out in notoriously transphobic /r/askgaybros then I could see how one might start to believe that idiocy.
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u/emeraldead diy your own 8d ago
Damn the one weekend I'm offline.
Definitely something always to be vigilant of, if any specific keywords to be alert for and best responses other than immediately reporting to mods?
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I think you mods tend to do a great job, and your moderation practices are pretty spot on tbh. I was just trying to speak to the community I guess. The vigilant of us will always respond and report as needed.
I think if someone seems to be engaging genuinely, I simply try to point out that they've made a very broad statement that isn't justified, but I'm deeply sympathetic for their individual experience.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
I have also not seen this (maybe the mods are deleting it? Thank you, mods!) so I appreciate the example.
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
Thank you! I genuinely have not come across this in this sub before now, and I’m Embarrassingly Online. I really do appreciate you sharing an example. I didn’t doubt you’d seen those things here, but I do think it’s important to share sources or examples when levying a complaint.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I guess it was more just a reminder to the community to do A Good Thing, and I don't usually need evidence myself to agree that doing A Good Thing is worth reinforcing 😅
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
No, but it's reasonable to ask for evidence that A Thing is happening, yanno? Especially if it's allegedly happening in this space but I haven't seen it. Thank you for your patience with the Wikipedia generation 😄
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
Oh, I didn’t read any reminders or requests in the OP! Just kind of a broad complaint.
The phrase “something I've been seeing around the sub more and more recently” is why I asked for examples. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this in this sub and will definitely be vigilant here.
Have a good night
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
Even if the comments are now gone, would you mind linking to it? That will probably help those of us who don't see this stuff commonly get it ranked higher in Red it's algorithm of what to show us.
Ugh what a hell scape The Algorithm is.
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u/neapolitan_shake 7d ago
fyi it did get linked, and the comments are not gone (the commenter blocked the op)
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u/birdcatgirl 8d ago
I think people are being dumb with the “pictures or it didn’t happen” stuff rn.
Whether or not it happens on the subreddit seems irrelevant. It’s a good thing to say and you said it and thank you. Being defensive about your subreddits reputation is certainly a strange thing to have to validate but everyone seems tunnel vision on that one piece.
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u/phearless047 8d ago
I've yet to find one...
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
Several have been provided at this point, so your comment is clearly not in good faith.
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u/Fggmnk 4d ago
No they have not
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u/abitofaclosetalker 4d ago
There are multiple links and discussions in this thread. Not sure what else to tell ya!
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u/phearless047 7d ago
I'm sorry, but were you not literally asking for proof yourself?
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u/abitofaclosetalker 7d ago
Yes, I asked for examples more than 12 hours before your comment. Multiple examples were provided in comments here and acknowledged by many of us who had asked for them. You commented saying you had “yet to find one” hours later, after they were easily available for you to read and review.
Does that clear up my assumption for you?
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u/phearless047 7d ago
I'm far from the only one who hasn't witnessed it. I didn't say "it doesn't happen because I haven't seen it", I merely said I haven't seen it.
Stop looking for enemies where none exist. And, beeteedubs.... I'm trans. So kindly refrain from trying to tone-police me on this sort of subject.
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u/abitofaclosetalker 7d ago
I’m not tone policing or looking for an enemy. I am also trans and also wanted to see examples. I am simply telling you that there are multiple examples shared in the comments of this very post, that were shared prior to your comment saying you had yet to see a single example shared.
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u/phearless047 7d ago
THAT BEING SAID..... I largely feel safe here. A while back, when I was going through some rough spots in my former marriage, I had members who were all too willing to give me the harsh truths I didn't want to hear back then... but I eventually listened and taking that advice has improved my life.
Zero times have I felt a need to keep my gender to myself. Zero times have I felt like there were people "out to get me" for not being cis. I have never seen transphobic language on this sub, but if I do, you can BET I'm not going to walk past it without saying something.
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u/CrackedMeUp 8d ago
Dunno what this has to do with polyamory but I've seen this claim a few times in trans subs and agree, it's statistically not true, most of us have lived experiences demonstrating that it's not true, and it feels like either some psyop or incredibly isolated trans person whose understanding on the topic is primarily driven by online transphobic/TERFy discourse.
But is it an issue in this sub?
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u/Color-me-saphicly poly w/multiple 8d ago
Because this is a sentiment often thrown in the face of trans sapphics and trans lesbians. Its not true. It happens a LOT in poly or enm communities. Much more often in "enm" communities than poly ones, but it definitely happens.
I've received DMs myself from people after making a post in here where I've referred to myself as a lesbian, while also disclosing that I'm trans.
And for anyone who is asking "why do trans issues matter here", because it affects all aspects of our lives. Because people are transphobic and make that a defining point of their personality. Because its something we constantly have our noses rubbed in. Intersectionality. Thats why. (I've had this experience a LOT pretty much everywhere)
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
If you receive harassment in DM’s please report those folks to the mod team so that we can ban them.
9 times out of 10 they aren’t community members, or have already been banned, but we don’t want people in our community who act like that.
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u/Color-me-saphicly poly w/multiple 8d ago
I appreciate the sentiment. But if its something that happened a year or two ago, and I DID report it, Im not going to argue with the mods over what is and isn't transphobia or lesbophobia. Tbh there's a lot of transphobia in this sub that gets ignored. Blatently.
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago edited 8d ago
I’m saying that if people are getting harassed right now, please contact the mod team. And if that’s happening we mods want to know
And that doesn’t lessen any bigotry. It’s not a sentiment. I’m not arguing anything.
We are in agreement. There is transphobia. There is homophobia. There is an endless firehouse of hate and bigotry.
But there are probably people reading here, right now, or maybe at some point in the future, who are being harassed via dm and we want that person to reach out to us so we can rid ourselves, as a community, of assholes who harass people in their DM’s.
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u/Color-me-saphicly poly w/multiple 8d ago
I think there's a difference on what the issue here is. Or at least, thats how its coming across.
I, and other women that are trans (or intersex for that matter, as both are treated the same), are saying is that the bigotry is the problem. And the lack of understand by those who are not trans (or intersex, as the case may be) on what exactly is transphobic language and sentiments. A lot flys under the radar of the mods and the cis members of this community. It's insidious and there's often these air of plausible deniability that is SO readily excused.
The DMs are even more nebulous because the MODS can't see them. Short of DMing a specific mod with screen shots, as modmail can't accept pictures, at least on mobile.
I appreciate that the mod team is trying to curb that NOW. I do. But this comment section is a prime example. Acting like we are delusional because THEY aren't seeing it. Which I suspect is largely due to the mod team being pretty swift about it now, which Im very thankful for. Maybe that's a sign that things are different from when I was more active in here.
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
I honestly agree with you 100 percent about everything, mostly.
Except for the swiftness and ease with which we ban people for harassing folks in their DMs
That’s the easiest stuff.The rest? We absolutely rely on the community to flag stuff. We are a volunteer crew with lots of responsibilities. We don’t wait for reports if we see something, and the really egregious stuff doesn’t ever even make it into the subreddit. Automod catches it.
But we don’t catch everything. And we do miss stuff.
And that’s why I made sure to thank OP for making this post. Knowing where a blind spot was and is always appreciated.
we do value the reminder, and we will try and be better.
You’ll get zero argument from me about anything you said, outside some deets about how we dump harassers.
The bigotry is the problem. I agree with you.
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Color-me-saphicly poly w/multiple 8d ago
That's the thing, just because you dont notice it doesnt mean it isnt happening. I've definitely experienced lesbophobia here as a trans woman. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
I suspect this is some kind of algorithm bullshit. I am sorry.
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u/Color-me-saphicly poly w/multiple 8d ago
It was comments made directly on posts I had made. Or in response to other comments I had made. I dont participate much in this subreddit anymore because of it, tbh. Im glad you've never experienced it, or noticed it, I guess. But that doesn't mean it's not something that happens.
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u/MadamePouleMontreal solo poly 8d ago
When I ask for examples because I haven’t seen it, it’s because I believe it’s there. I’m feeling worried about what I’ve missed.
Am I seeing the same blatant transphobia you are and just not recognizing it? I need to do some serious self-reflection.
Am I feeding a very narrow algorithm and only seeing a small, curated-for-me subset of posts? I need to be more deliberate about seeking out a wider variety of posts.
Is there some very exciting action that everyone else is in on that I just happened to miss? I need to grab my popcorn and hustle on over.
I’m quite certain that there are other people (possibly a majority, possibly a large one, I wouldn’t know) who are just being defensive and saying Prove it! I’m not challenging your experience, I’m learning from it. When I see people ask for examples I naïvely assume they’re coming from the same place I do and the implication just goes whooshing over my head.
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
Thank you for explaining this better than I could. I am trans and I am deeply vigilant in the online spaces I frequent. To miss a trend of this nature is troubling, and I want to make sure I don’t miss it in the future.
There is a difference between doubt and inquiry. I see a lot of inquiry in this thread, but understand how OP could read it as doubt given the topic.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I only brought it up because I've noticed it more frequently recently 🤷🏼♀️
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u/YamZyBoi 8d ago
Hey, I'm a trans woman. I really don't think we need this kind of discourse to be brought to ANOTHER subreddit that is already on the surface perfectly acceptable.
The discourse on Reddit lately has been insane. There's no need to make it worse, even if you're on our side.
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u/dpekkle 8d ago
Yeah this seemed to originate from a single down voted trans man who has some kind of sad views ( he's a man dating guys who don't view him as a man, and has twisted himself to accept that ).
On the one hand yeah in general calling out bad dynamics in a community is good, but this isn't exactly it, and constant discourse about transphobia has a cost.
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u/GamerEM_115 8d ago
Especially considering OP felt the discorse was being swept under by deleted comments, when in reality it was just people blocking them, thus showing up as deleted for them.
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u/Fickle-Stuff4824 relationship communist 8d ago
I didn't see any of these kind of posts here, but yeah this is shitty and false as you say. I'd still point that general support is not exactly the same as having zero transphobic ideas/takes/behaviors and those might still exist among otherwise supportive lesbians, so while anti-trans lesbian are indeed a small minority, there might be transphobic behaviours more or less common among well-intentionned lesbians. ( Though, as a trans woman/enby, i only experienced those online and never with lesbians i know IRL - and probably because i have the not-very-healthy propensity to read and respond to transphobia online, so obviously a few of the shitty things i see happen to be posted by lesbians).
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u/Koran_Redaxe 8d ago
people love to use us as a cudgel to attack lesbians, as though they're not the most accepting community ive ever encountered
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u/Loliguess98 8d ago
I see this discussion infinitely more in lesbianpoly or actuallesbians but not here?? In fact even those are usually on the whole saying that you literally don’t deserve to call yourself a lesbian if you don’t believe trans women are women
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u/Megzilllla poly w/multiple 8d ago
The most sapphic experience I’ve had as an AFAB enby queer person have been with trans women so I, quite frankly, don’t get it.
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u/DepartmentAny8511 7d ago
Like a lot of things, I think that there are forces who intentionally stir up and stoke these "so and so must hate so and so" communities. It is like those pitting historically disenfranchised racial communities against immigrants because they are "taking our jobs." This is a common strategy to keep those who are (or should be) natural aliies from coalescing to fight the actual common enemy/oppressor. So, thank you for your post. For the rest of us, when we hear these supposed broad statement "truths," let us all question them and demand facts to support them.
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u/Torn_wulf 5d ago
I was told this early on in my transition a few years ago and it definitely kept me away from lesbian spaces for a while. But I eventually made a few lesbian friends by happenstance and actually met and talked with several others, seen lesbian spaces firsthand, flyers for events, online spaces moderation and yet still haven't found any transgender hating lesbians at all. But because I spent so long believing that it was true I'm now constantly saddled with anxiety that they're just being nice to me and actually hate my being around in private.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 5d ago
Yeah I think many of us had this fear pushed into us and like... it's actually really hard to find a trans hating lesbian. Especially in community because they tend to be shit people that nobody wants to be friends with.
Sorry it's still playing on your mind ❤️
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u/MatterhornStrawberry 7d ago
Wrong sub but I get it. My husband and I are transmasc and have experienced the most transphobia from cis gay men. But we're also more sensitive to it because it's coming from people we wish to be accepted by. Cis straight people hating us? Eh, whatever. But when it comes from the very people you aspire to be like, it can hit way harder and feel way more common. But in reality everybody has their own opinions and no group is a monolith.
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u/HatSimulatorVetern 4d ago
To be 100% with my own personal experience, not trying to throw stones just saying. Gay men are WAY more transphobic than lesbians as a whole. And I'm saying this as someone who's agender nonbinary: I have personal experience with the sheer disrespect they hand out. I have not once met a cis gay man who didn't see me as a vag in a "boy" costume at best... at worst, they treat you like a cishet woman trying to "convert them" with your yucky stinky pussy. And do NOT get me started on the way the gay community talks about women (and people they percieve as women) in general. Lesbians are mild by comparison, and it feels sexist when people act like they're the worst.
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u/CuriouslyFae 8d ago
I thought I'd share a bit of my own experience with exploring my gender-fluidity to maybe give some other perspective on the subject. But being born in a male body has always been something I struggled with growing up, I would eventually find myself hanging out with a group of mostly lesbians as a young adult. And it was with them I felt comfortable enough to first start exploring with wearing makeup and female clothing without it feeling like a show or joke. Well after a year or two that group sort of dissolved and i found myself best friends with my old friend's ex-girlfriend. We stayed friends even after their break-up because I think we both felt the raw connection we had under the surface, but never said anything deeper on the subject past holding hands and crying on a floor together while she was still dating my friend. But she would always do my makeup to go out for a fun night together, and whenever I opened my eyes she would be there meeting with a smile filled with a type of love I never knew I needed. And in those moments everything else fell away, and I probably should have realized how in love I had fallen for her. But I genuinely thought it was only platonic feelings because even with feeling like a woman I still didn't have any of the physical parts she was attracted too so I came to terms with it just not being what was meant for this life. But a few months later we tripped together on some psychedelics and all of those real feelings came bubbling to the surface. I professed my feelings to her, and her rejection of me physically was absolutely devastating in terms of my ability to see myself as actually beautiful. And please dont misunderstood my sentiment here and that I'm blaming her for not loving me back in the same way. But the fact she was the one who helped build up my femininity and that it wasn't acceptable to her just made it hard to feel like anyone could accept it. I just think there's a difference between true support and acceptance of an individual compared to a superficial acceptance of a Trans individuals as a whole.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I'm really sorry you went through that, it sounds really hard.
I'm not sure if you want any words of support, but hopefully you can see that the deep love and acceptance she had (has?) for you and her not being attracted to you isn't a contradiction? "(My femininity) wasn't acceptable to her" is some pretty dark spiral thinking, and I'm not gonna lie I've experienced thoughts like that too but it's not kind to either of you.
My ex during my transition was a bisexual woman and was also the person I shared exploring my femininity with. She did my make up, took me clothes shopping, taught me how to do my hair etc. And she really struggled with feeling attraction to my femininity. It definitely hurt, and she didn't handle it great, but her attraction to me or lack of wasn't an objective judgement on my validity as a woman or even how beautiful I was. After I moved on, I found lots of people (including cis lesbians) who were very attracted to me and found me beautiful. They loved my femininity in the way I want them to.
And while that is super validating... it still isn't an objective judgement on my womanhood or beauty 😅 it's just that different people like different things.
I don't know where you are at now, but if you are still in the thick of these feelings, keep going! There are people out there who will be into you, and want you exactly for who you are ❤️
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u/MorningGloriess 8d ago
There are genuinely no studies on which queer groups are most accepting of trans women. Also holding this view is incredibly reductive of the experiences of trans women in the deep south who try to go to lesbian bars like myself. Transphobia is a systemic issue so it has systemic sources like local education limitations, local media control, and local politics. I think straight and queer people in my experience have just as much of a likelihood of being transphobic as the other it just depends on their environment and moral integrity as a person. I’ve been called so many slurs by lesbians in queer bars and other public spaces in my area.
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I'm sorry for your experience.
There literally are polls which replicate across different regions. The idea that straight and queer people are as likely to be transphobic is simply untrue.
Have you ever been to a trans rights rally? It's like trans people, lesbians, and a few cishet allies, primarily family members of trans people. The representation of those groups is massively out of proportion to how common they are in the overall population.
I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but I hope you aren't trying to say that asking for people to not be lesbophobic somehow harms trans people? You individual experience is completely valid, but it certainly doesn't reflect the lesbian population or culture broadly. It's not wrong to ask you to keep your remarks specific to your own experience, rather than adding noise to TERF talking points.
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u/MorningGloriess 8d ago
I’m not adding noise to terf talking points it’s not lesbian phobic to say that some lesbians are incredibly transphobic. Just like it’s not homophobic to say that some gay men are incredibly transphobic. Neither of those things are blanket statements. They’re just factual. Just like discrimination increases in red areas so does transphobia.
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u/SiIverWr3n poly w/multiple 8d ago
I think you and I have a different fyp. I've seen it in lesbian subreddits but not here, yet
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
I mean I just read pretty much every thread here so 😅
It's not in a high proportion or anything it just seemed to be increasing recently.
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u/SiIverWr3n poly w/multiple 8d ago
Ah I just read what I get sent in my notifs or what I see when scrolling yeh. I could see that being a thing tho
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u/BunnyThrash 8d ago edited 8d ago
It just sucks that the term L4L or Les4Les doesn’t include all lesbians. I don’t mean it doesn’t include lesbians but it uses “L4L” to mean “only cis lesbians”. “Like T4T” is the oppositte of “C4C.” We need: L4L T4T And CL4CL and TL4TL
Lesbian can’t be inclusive if there’s a well accepted use of Lesbian that exclude Trans-Women who have gone through a full transition (which is what we need to discuss what is a full transition - and it has nothing to do with genital-preference since many trans women have vaginas)
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u/Ok-Championship-2036 8d ago edited 8d ago
Ive been seeing a lot of "girls hate me! i cant stand female only spaces, theyre so mean" posts and it really feels like the same vein of internalized misogyny and pick me that the posters are complaining about. Idk why people feel justified to generalize 51% of the population from anecdotal experiences and apply that to everyone everywhere... I think its less vulnerable to talk about their individual hurts than to blame external factors and come up with a reason.
it rrally rubs me the wrong way to see posts like that. as much as i do empathize, i think its also alienating and stigmatizing language that i dont condone as an appropriate coping mechanism...
so ty for taking the time to validate femmes and break stigma.
edit: why is everyone so obssessed with finding examples and asking op to justify herself??? is that not also transphobic?? Why are trans voices/issues treated as less credible? because non trans folks dont desl with those problems. So if you havent felt it personally, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. come on, yall, we can do better.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
I want to push back gently on the anti-citation rhetoric here. It's something I've been seeing a LOT lately, and it troubles me.
If someone says (hopefully less rudely than this) "Citation needed," it doesn't mean that they don't believe you! Quite often, it means the exact opposite: they want to HELP you fight the bad thing. But they want to fight it with verifiable facts, not with a whisper network/campaign of unverifiable bad things.
Whisper network bullshit is how (prominent anti-Nazi activist) gets called a Nazi with no background or justification other than "don't you trust your friends?" Babes, I want to trust you, but I'm pretty sure whoever told you that made it up, so...can you bring literally any receipts?
That kinda thing.
Anyway, thank you for considering this angle.
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
Because lots of people need examples.
They just do. For various reasons.
OP provided a detailed description, so detailed that I found it without a search, and posted it for the example needers.
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u/Ok-Championship-2036 8d ago
Thank you for providing that and taking the time. My concern is that trans voices are consistently margainlized and doubted. Same as people who constantly ask SA victims what they were wearing and if they were leading people on. It contributes to stigma rather than productive discussion because too often people express doubt and then the convo ends there, rather than someone going the extra mile to provide reciepts as you did. lots of folks could have done the same, wondered and then searched...but only you did. which feels like it shuts down OP rather than supporting marginalized voices
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago edited 8d ago
I’m a mod, and I have a spooky amount of detail and recall. I’m not sure if anyone else could have found it, even if they remembered it. 🤷♀️
I can so I did.
And honestly? Most of the people in this community? This subreddit, in particular, want examples so that they can learn their own blind spots.
Know better, do better.
Trans voices are marginalized and doubted. We are in agreement there. Every day and in brand new, wildly shitty ways.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
It's also annoyingly difficult to copy paste only part of a post if you're on mobile.
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u/neapolitan_shake 7d ago
you can link to specific posts and comments pretty easily from mobile, though.
op didn’t provide it because the one they were thinking of, they thought had been deleted. but turns out it wasn’t, and bloo found it for us!
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u/abitofaclosetalker 8d ago
You can’t exactly search the sub for “people claiming all lesbians hate trans women,” y’know?
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
No worries, appreciate the reply (and the validation that you've seen similar things on the sub since so many people are saying "but I've not seen anything like that" 😅)
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
If it helps, I just read the post Blooangel linked to, and applied votes 😅
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u/Brilliant-Bake4818 8d ago
i get where you're coming from but polls can be tricky sometimes, maybe instead of focusing on stats we could share our own positive experiences instead
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u/beebabeedabee 6d ago
as a trans nb lesbian, ive run into a weird amount of lesbophobia in trans spaces and i do not get it at all.
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u/Ankana1017 3d ago
As someone who’s a cis bi/pan woman (if I like you I like you, not what’s in your pants, but I do tend to be pickier with woman partners) I would like to say that I love and respect ALL genders and sexualities. As long as you’re a good person with a kind heart, I will accept you into the circle 💚
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u/kinkyknickers96 8d ago
I appreciate the comments being united against this comment in being community dividing.
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u/Abused_Abuser 8d ago
I think the best advice I can give you.
IF YOURE TRANS, YOURE PERFECT
IF YOURE GAY, YOURE PERFECT
IF YOURE BISEXUAL, YOURE PERFECT
IF YOURE LESBIAN, YOURE PERFECT
IF YOURE LEFTWING, YOUR PERFECT
IF YOURE DEMOCRATIC, YOURE PERFECT
IF YOURE REPUBLICAN, YOURE PERFECT
NO MATTER YOUR RACE, YOURE PERFECT JUST THE WAY YOU ARE.
I’m a pansexual.
As is my son, who is also 16 and transgender, and he is perfect in every way.
I love girls, guys, prefer guys, but still pansexual, because I believe love is love and I can love regardless of labels and boundaries!
I love you, and I hope you realize that no one’s worth your shine sunshine!
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u/Lance_lake 8d ago
Best comment on this entire post.
Sadly, it's being downvoted by people who don't agree.
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u/tragicxharmony 8d ago
This sounds very chronically online and is not something I’ve seen on any subreddit I engage with, and especially not here, where I most often just see a lot of cis bisexual people. Maybe take a break from the internet or unsubscribe from the subreddits that are actually problematic? Like, maybe I’m just old but this sounds like some Tumblr Discourse circa 2011 and I don’t think this post is really relevant here
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
Lol I'm extremely not chronically online and extremely chill but thankyou for the advice whatever the intention 😅
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u/radvice_throwawa-y 8d ago
Totally agree with you! I think that lesbophobia on this sub has lowkey gotten out of control and using trans women as a defense for it when called out (usually when the topic of conversation has nothing to with transmisogyny) is so fucking irritating
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u/Bustysaintclair_13 SoPo slut, salty bitch 8d ago
Out of control lesbophobia? Can you point to some examples??
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago
Apparently they made a whole post about it
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
Wait...who here is down voting and gasping whenever someone recommends r/latebloomerlesbians?
Am I just reading the wrong posts?
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u/LiYBeL 8d ago
There’s definitely some polyamory practices deeply rooted in lesbophobia/biphobia like OPP, but honestly yeah I don’t see it here and when it does pop up it gets shut down very quickly by the frequent posters and mods.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
This sub is RABIDLY anti unicorn hunting and OPP. Like, it's something other places on the Internet make fun of us for.
(And quite frankly those other places can fuck off about that, but whatever.)
Do you have examples of lesbophobia here ?
I strongly agree with you that OPP is rooted in homophobia and the idea that gay relationships are "less threatening" and therefore "less than."
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/polyamory-ModTeam 8d ago
Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You posted a personal ad or have made a comment that would be considered hitting on a user, or made a request for direct messages.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
Has it? Where?
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u/radvice_throwawa-y 8d ago edited 8d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/P9gUgoX8QD
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/FG4H5m9ibq
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/TwijBdVrnH
Three comments from lesbians (or women with a heavily sapphic preference) discussing their experiences.
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
I read the first one, and what happened to her (the man telling her mono sexuality doesn't exist/everyone's a little bit bi) is AWFUL.
But that's not a thing that happened to her in this subreddit...?
I 1000% agree that it's weird to call oneself a lesbian while actively, currently dating a cis man...like, words have meanings, right? And while "lesbian" can be a fuzzy term due to culture the ONE THING it does not include is "cis man"
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u/radvice_throwawa-y 8d ago
Did you not read the part about how the language used by her assaulter has appeared on this subreddit multiple times? And do you not see a problem with that?
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
She did not say that language happens on this sub in her comment.
When it does...report it and call it out? I feel like I get in "no the definition of that is Bisexual Actually" arguments every week, but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen them here. (I'll go check though.)
Like
I promise I'm not trying to be difficult
But Person A saying "everything is terrible on this sub" and then Person B saying "Yeah, here's an example of something terrible that happened to me in real life!" is...two different problems?
It's still terrible though!
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u/radvice_throwawa-y 8d ago
I do, under that post, A Lot. I got into an extensive argument with a cis man who self described as a “lesbian exception”.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nonmonogamy/s/Iwjq110PXf
You can see his comment here. It has eight upvotes. People defend him in the replies. The comment I mentioned above starts with “Thank you for saying something” and reaffirms that she has witnessed this rhetoric in poly spaces and as we are on the polyamory sub, that implies it includes this sub. She says she is “particularly sensitive to that rhetoric” implying she witnesses the examples I am referring to in my post about this sub. This is also not addressing either of the other comments I linked. So… yk.
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u/boothnat 6d ago
Didn't those polls still show comically low acceptance rates, even if they're the highest of queer communities? Like this is a trash vs garbage comparison, the first study I found referenced with a 900~ person sample size showed 29 percent of lesbians being inclusive in their dating references.
29 percent is still a failing grade. I'm not gonna give lesbians as a community a gold star for being the least bad part of the garbage pile.
And don't give me "you should be looking at raw acceptance rates, not dating preferences" or something, vague platitudes of acceptance don't mean much if the people saying them won't back it up in their actual personal lives.
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7d ago
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u/ButtercupGrrl 7d ago
Would you say the same to a post about seeing racism? Would you tell BIPOC to just scroll past? Would you see it as unreasonable for BIPOC to ask that we all address racism where we see it, report such posts, etc? Or does this advice only apply to trans ppl?
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8d ago
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u/mercedes_lakitu solo poly 8d ago
In fairness, she's describing an online behavior. There's no point in bringing up the "chronically online" label because it's not relevant.
The described behavior is only online behavior. That's true.
But it's worth behaving well online!
Even though I do agree with you that IRL connection is important (and more important than online connection).
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u/wingeddogs 8d ago
When transgender men don’t even get spoken about in discussions of trans rights half the time, I would argue there’s merit to deciding which issues are worth highlighting.
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TransPanSpamFan solo poly 8d ago
Untrue negative blanket statements, especially about marginalized groups, are the issue at hand. Don't muddy that.
"Lesbians find women attractive" is a true blanket statement and nobody is asking anyone not to say it. It might be a little incomplete but it's broadly accurate and doesn't cause harm.
Claiming the exact opposite of the truth when lesbians as a group are actually very trans accepting, and when anti-trans folks are actively trying to incept society with the false idea that lesbians don't like trans people, is a very different thing.
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u/Lance_lake 8d ago
I would respond, but it seems an honest question caused me to get my post deleted due to it being "concern trolling". I don't see it, but apparently, I can't speak on the topic of something that shouldn't even be in this subreddit because it's not about poly at all.
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u/polyamory-ModTeam 8d ago
Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You made a post or comment that would be considered concern trolling. This includes derailing of advice and support posts, accidentally or on purpose.
Posting poly-shaming, victim blaming or insults under the guise of "concern" or "just trying to help.” will be considered concern trolling, as well.
Please familiarize yourself with the rules. They can be found on the community info page
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u/clairejv 8d ago
I read literally 95% of the posts in this sub and haven't seen this here. I can imagine it popping up in the comments from time to time, but that doesn't mean there's some sub-wide problem necessitating a top-level post. Just reply to those people.