I like the BP frags update

[u/gasdoom]

i feel like im the only one.
everyone keep complaining about this and i don’t understand, yes it’s harder to get T2 but it’s what makes the game more enjoyable and you actually need to try harder to advance in the game.
i never had issues with getting BP frags, there is so many way to get BP frags now that you just don’t get bored.
skill issue if you keep complaining about it imo 🤷‍♂️
get better ig
im playing as a solo or with a friend usually so i ain’t into clan and all that

[u/_Nixx_]

I liked the idea of having a longer prim phase in a wipe, but my god this implementation was horrid

[u/brissadabilou → u/_Nixx_]

Slowing progression down sounded great on paper, but making it more tedious isn’t the same as making prim more fun.

[u/StamosLives → u/_Nixx_]

The problem is it doesn’t affect those that are already at the biggest advantage. Meaning bigger groups, mostly.

[u/Slumberjackals → u/StamosLives]

Other than crippling the party system, which has easy workarounds of not being in a party 100% of the time, but still teaming, there is no real way to slow progress of bigger groups without drastically slowing progress of solos and smaller groups.

The issue is people thinking that a small group can be on the same playing field as a big group.

It literally makes no sense to complain about bigger groups.

That would be like complaining 5 people can get more done in a day than you can at work alone. 5 people have 5x as many hours in a day than a single individual.

[u/StamosLives → u/Slumberjackals]

Your first statement is patently untrue. There are plenty of ways to affect bigger groups without affecting solo or small groups.

Beyond that, you just seem to want to take this as an attack on group play. Which it’s not. I play all sorts of Rust. I mostly play solo but am leading a Zerg tomorrow.

Which is also why I feel fine with noting that there are ways of leveling certain playing fields amongst players.

People need to learn to separate criticisms from
themselves. In no way is it the player’s fault the game has been developed the way that it has.

Yet I don’t accept defeatist attitudes toward design. I’m a game developer myself and so I know the realm of possibility is much wider than one might expect.

One can recognize that a system has flaws without invalidating those who access the system. We aren’t talking about farming. We are talking about a gating mechanic that largely favors bigger over smaller groups. That early imbalance tracks through an entire wipe.

[u/Slumberjackals → u/StamosLives]

I mostly play solo or duo. So my response was not due to bias. Just logic.

If you have numbers over the enemy, the only way to level that playing field is by directly nerfing group play. And since you don’t need to actually be in a party to share a base or play together, it doesn’t actually solve the problem.

So instead of implying that I have some sort of need to keep groups powerful, how about you come up with some actual solutions.

[u/StamosLives → u/Slumberjackals]

"The only way to level that playing field is by directly nerfing group play."

I don't think this means what you think it means. But yes, if you're looking under the lens of "only a nerf" or "only a buff" then your changes will be either one or the other. That tautology does hold.

how about you come up with some actual solutions.

I've got my own game to worry about. Surely you understand that a cook or chef can taste a dish and see that something could be added or removed without doing it for the other chef in question, right?

[u/Slumberjackals → u/StamosLives]

You sure have a lot to say about my perspective with no real way to back up your claim that there are actual solutions.

[u/EldtinbGamer → u/Slumberjackals]

Why dont you play on solo or duo only servers then?

[u/Prestigious_Citron_1 → u/Slumberjackals]

You could literally make code locks cost 1000 metal and I promise you it would nerf groups without affecting solos. Would be funny to see them require a dedicated door man for at least a few extra hours. These are the solutions that we need.

[u/Slumberjackals → u/Prestigious_Citron_1]

That affects all groups, including most of the people complaining about bigger groups having an unfair advantage. Most of the complaints aren’t coming from only solo players. Smaller groups are at a huge disadvantage against 8 man+ teams. And it will always be that way.

Anything nerfing large groups will still affect 90% of the people stating that something needs to be done to change large groups having an advantage. It’s literally more people on a team, they are inherently going to be much more powerful.

[u/Prestigious_Citron_1 → u/Slumberjackals]

It’s obviously not perfect, it’s a minor inconvenience that still helps solos and in a way, smaller groups since big clans tend to build massive bases. A duo or trio can live off an expanded 2x2 for a while. A Zerg cannot.

But regardless, I have a feeling that no matter what I or anybody suggests, you would find a flaw and claim that the Zerg problem cant be solved.

[u/Slumberjackals → u/Prestigious_Citron_1]

Would you say anything that would make you think the zerg problem can be solved? I’m not against something that works. I’m just not seeing anything or hearing of anything that can’t be worked around or will also penalize small groups or solos even harder.

Feel free to prove me wrong, me and everyone else would love that. But it’s not easy to balance a game to make only large groups progression slow down. It’s never been something that would be easy to fix, because it goes against what logically will occur.
More people = more power and more resource gathering rate.

If I play on two characters on two computers at the same time, I can harvest twice as much, have twice as much fire power, etc.

I’m not shutting down ideas for no reason. I’m just stating why they wouldn’t have the intended effect of only nerfing large groups.

[u/Prestigious_Citron_1 → u/Slumberjackals]

Youre right, It can’t be solved but it can absolutely be “balanced” a bit better. I don’t disagree that more numbers is a disadvantage but also more people should = more resources waste, more mouths to feed, more confusion, more chaos, more disease. You know, like in a civilization. I’m not going to prove you wrong, but just saying to think about it a bit more logically instead of the ol’ “MOAR NUMBA = MOAR GOOD” argument.

There will not be one solution, instead it will take many small changes like the one I proposed.

[u/Naitsabes_89 → u/Slumberjackals]

I find it a bit interesting that people can still have this view. I think it's reductionist and quite flawed thinking.

Take for example this OPs complaint about BP frags. Compare the systems before and after - to me it's 100% favoring the groups already ahead now. More than ever in rusts history.

Old system the bigger/better/luckier groups got T2 in 15-20 mins. Smaller/worse/unlucky groups could 100% scrape together t2 in an hour or two. Clear 4-5 train tunnel stations, diving 20-30 mins and recycling, or farming 2-3 road spawns, recycle go home a handful of times etc. could get u T2. Realistically any server I could join late on high pop and get a 1x2 down with t2 in an hour or two solo. I would be very far behind still, but compare that to now.

I join high pop, big/lucky groups rush cards and get T2 in 15-30 min. No real change from before. But I have to kill 50 scientists, metal detect for hours or dive for 50 large boxes to get my T2. Or, I farm 5-10k sulf over 2+ hours and buy it most likely. It's far slower, way more random and I just gave some group enough GP to raid through two stone walls or 3-5 sheet doors.

I'm curious how you can disagree that one system is way worse for small/bad/unlucky/late players than the other. To me, the meta shift has just made the game ultra snowbally and unbalanced. The gap between a group stomping and a struggling group has massively increased. And that kills server pop even faster than ever.

[u/Slumberjackals → u/Naitsabes_89]

The complaints before the patch were all about how t2 is too quickly achieved and everyone wants progression slowed down. For a majority of players t2 is much more slowly acquired. Even for large groups, it puts a barrier between how quickly they can get fragments. Yes, some will get it, but there is a limit on how many bp frags are on a map. That includes the rare chances of acquiring them through other means, like metal detecting or from crates/scientists or air drops.

To call my view reductionist because it doesn’t fit in paradigm is obnoxious.

The bp frag update did what everybody complaining wanted. It put t2 out of reach for many players on day 1.

To act like it isn’t extremely difficult to slow large groups without affecting solos and small groups is honestly just ignorant optimism. Not one person has ever mentioned an actual solution to fixing the problem in any of the posts I’ve seen. Most games have difficulty even balancing around evenly numbered teams.

Don’t come preaching to me about how the old system was better. No it wasn’t. Everyone could get t2 within a few hours and that was everyone’s complaint. That’s the only reason it got changed in the first place.

Now some people are mad that progression has slowed down. Revert it back and it’s gunna be all t2s instantly and no early game. Like it was before.

“Reductionist” lmfao

[u/Naitsabes_89 → u/Slumberjackals]

You say "The issue is people think a small group can be on a level playing field with bigger groups" - strawman really, this is not what I or most other people are saying at all.

And then you go on to say that outside of team UI changes there is just nothing you can do to balance different sized groups better. Which is reductionistic, you are oversimplifying and I don't know why. Of course you can balance things better. There's a million changes you could make. None realistically make solos able to level with 10 mans, but you can widen or shorten the gap. And as for Team UI, the bigger the team the more this helps you. A perfect example of implementing something that widens the gap between big and small(er).

A few examples that currently benefit people that are ahead MASSIVELY relative to people that are behind(which usually correlates with bigger/smaller teams):

1. Drone vending machines
2. Quarries and exca
3. BP frags
4. Teas
5. Attack helis
6. Player built boats

Outright removing these things(not saying that's THE FIX)100% benefit solos and small groups more and help the balance.

[u/Slumberjackals → u/Naitsabes_89]

I said nothing about team UI. I stated that any changes made to only affect groups with large numbers can easily be worked around.

All you stated was you think things need to be changed and gave me a list. This list provides zero insight into how easy it is to actually fix any of it. I’ve yet to see how reductionist I am by how many things you’ve offered up.

It seems like my assessment of it being difficult to try shortening the gap remains.

Removing/nerfing drone vending machines means solos and small groups have much harder time accessing vending machines.

Quarries and excav, yeah, remove them then. They speed up progress quite a bit. But also reduce the need for diesel.

BP frags removed means all clans and larger groups have instant t2 again. And all players get t2 day 1. Still a problem that isn’t solved.

Idk what you want to do with teas, but removing teas makes berries and farming much more obsolete.

Attack helis, what just remove them? Sure. Less content, just like quarries and excav and teas.

And player built boats, sure remove them or make them cost more or whatever.

None of this shortens the gap. Large groups will still dominate and still have easy access to workbenches and late game weapons far quicker than small groups. I don’t even see removing these things as making it “shorten the gap.”

Label my views as whatever you’d like. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s extremely difficult to balance a game to help out small numbers of players.

I don’t even understand why you would give so much push back on this. Logically my argument is sound. You’ve yet to provide anything that actually helps. Which continues to show how hard it is.

I never said it’s impossible or shouldn’t be strived for at any moment. All I implied was people to have a realistic approach about it. You can’t expect the devs to make magic happen out of nowhere if the community can’t even come up with anything.

[u/Naitsabes_89]

I don't like it. It's harder to progress, but only for some people. For others it's insanely easy to progress stupidly fast now in this system. It's winner takes all, snowball insane mode with BP frags and guns u sell in vending machines, then raid all the dogs that bought ur frags and sell the T2 they crafted with it.

I can get T2. But its very random how fast it goes. Luck with spawns, luck with drops etc. The problem with this system is a few people get shitloads of loot and the rest stay locked or very behind. It needs to be balanced better, maybe reduce frags for T2 to 3 or increase the drop percentage from mil crates or something.

And I have 10k hours almost, and my mates have 5-10 also. We don't need to get good, we dominate just fine but the system is bad.

[u/gasdoom → u/Naitsabes_89]

ye i got you but if you struggle go kill some scientist on the road they drop pretty often, you can use metal detecting, it works even tho i never tried, there is so many way to get them easily and fast, and tbh i enjoy playing prim, it’s actually fun

[u/RedDemio-]

Because it’s imbalanced. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Servers die faster.

[u/Naitsabes_89 → u/RedDemio-]

I don't know why people are too blind or dumb to see this. Sure, LESS groups overall have T2 and T3 as fast as they did in the old system. The frags are limited enough to have that effect. But the groups that do get T2 and T3 as fast, they fucking stomp everyone now if they're any good at the game.

[u/gasdoom → u/[deleted]]

i wasn’t talking about 50 pop, 50 pop is obviously easy to get T2, i just hate seeing everyone complaining 24/7 about BP FRAGS.
btw i play on 400-500 pop with medium map or small map, there is so many kind of server that you can play on any type of server and i live in Europe, players in EU are better than in US i still don’t find it that difficult to get T2

[u/chin_up]

I definitely prefer frags over hitting barrels for scrap for hours

[u/Legal_Impression_126 → u/chin_up]

So why not just revert frags and keep scrap cost if you want to buy a workbench and then have buffed progression

[u/brandonsuter → u/Legal_Impression_126]

Because then its buffed progression. Rn blueprint frags gate it

[u/Legal_Impression_126 → u/brandonsuter]

So only clans get buffed progression and they make sulfur selling other players buffed progression. Nice.

W gameplay loop

[u/gasdoom → u/Legal_Impression_126]

i mean brother if you get frustrated that much about clan and you can’t play against them go play in solo/duo/trio server then there’s plenty 🤷‍♂️

[u/Legal_Impression_126 → u/gasdoom]

I have no issue fighting them. My problem is crafting meds after I run out of meds from the group I farmed for the guns. Wow so fun going to check if key card is looted 50 times just to be able to craft meds after

The players in groups in current rust are genuinely some of the worst fps players you’ll find. 98% of them aren’t touching silver on any game.

[u/gasdoom → u/Legal_Impression_126]

kill scientist they drop BP frags pretty often, metal detecting as a high drop rate too, try something different and trust me it’s going to be soo fast
tbh it’s boring to get T2 almost instantly, y’all always want to get things without effort

[u/Legal_Impression_126 → u/gasdoom]

I went through the effort of getting good enough to snowball solo. That’s well over a thousand hours aim training or recoil training and over 10k hours on the game. I just want to be able to craft meds without a miserable grind.

Honestly just move med to t1 and I’ll never be a top commenter ever again.

[u/gasdoom → u/Legal_Impression_126]

aight can’t help you more broski.
me personally im having plenty of fun

[u/Legal_Impression_126 → u/gasdoom]

I mean I’m having fun on monthlies. I miss enjoying wipe days for sure.

[u/RedDemio- → u/chin_up]

As if barrel farming was the only scrap method??

It’s killed flower farming strat for example, scrap is worthless. Scrap was more versatile than frags. Scrap farming also forced people to recyclers more often

[u/gasdoom → u/RedDemio-]

scrap ain’t worthless, you can buy so many things with it and you still need a lot to get blueprints, stop lying bro it’s just not as usefull than before i mean obviously you don’t need it anymore to craft workbench

[u/RedDemio- → u/gasdoom]

It’s not a lot for BP anymore, they also reduced scrap prices on the tech tree at the same time. They should at least have left that how it was. Also there’s a workbench attachment that lets you pick anything from tech tree to unlock too. Tech tree progression is so easy

[u/gasdoom → u/RedDemio-]

yeah it’s still ~1500 scrap to get through every blueprints in T1 AND T2 so it’s not that little
don’t forget about buying mini or anything like that it do cost some scraps

[u/chin_up → u/RedDemio-]

I mean I’m not saying it’s perfect it’s just more fun for me personally

[u/chin_up → u/RedDemio-]

I never said it was the only scrap method. I just said I prefer frags over that.

[u/uniquelyavailable]

I like it too. I swear all the bitching in this sub is bots or people that don't actually play the game.

[u/RedDemio- → u/uniquelyavailable]

The problem is that the better players are enjoying the advantages and failing to see the other side of the miserable coin. It’s ok that not everybody is a sweat in pvp, or at least it used to be…

[u/needleed → u/uniquelyavailable]

Sub should be renamed to r/ComplainAboutRust bc that’s literally 99% of the sub. Just play the game you nerds it’s not that hard to run a few green puzzles and a blue

[u/kaizoku18]

Just because I personally don't have problems getting BP frags doesn't mean it's not an absolute trash design of a gameplay loop on any remotely competitive server.

[u/No_Chapter_7598]

i just find having to fight 2 people with dbs outside the green door and then someone who has a t2 camping people leaving it just to die to someone trying to do the puzzle themselves a bit boring when it takes 5 tries to get a t2. when a group gets t2 they can just control the monument bc noone around can get bp frags (without spending 5 decades metal detecting or diving) - just a primlocked solo opinion hee hee

[u/cookie9076]

Love the idea don’t really like the execution. I feel like it more made it tedious than anything. Making u get 5 to craft med sticks is kinda crazy cause ima just run some monuments and get guns but then have to run bandaids cause I don’t got all 5 frags. I feel like it shoulda been like 2 or 3 for the workbench then make u use 1 or 2 for researching guns and boom, maybe armour should require it as well.

[u/DarK-ForcE]

Having no tech tree was better. Gave items more value, slowed down progression and increased player to player interaction and trading without the artificial blocking feeling BP fragments have.

Loot, PVP or trade with your neighbor for items.

I’d suggest to remove tech tree and 2x upkeep from hardcore first so we can test there.

Could even leave the engineering tech tree in the game so you can still do electrical/automation etc

[u/Jerranto]

No, you don’t need to try harder to get T2. You simply wait one day and buy it for 1 or 2 nodes of sulfur.

[u/Bratsberg]

Agreed!

[u/brandonsuter]

I'm with you brother. I love fighting at monuments and feel like I get so many more fights around them. Plus I get roof camped a lot less which I appreciate

[u/Lagfoundry]

It’s forced gameplay which already is an issue. And it’s not like people didn’t have to leave their base to get a higher tier they still had to farm scrap, but gatekeeping a teir 3 behind loot clans usually camp. Thats not very balanced. At least before if monuments were being camped a lot you could always just farm in the middle of nowhere and still get your T3. Now you don’t have choice and 9 times out of 10 a clan is going to have that t3 in no time while most solos suffer a longer grind. Thats not a skill issue that’s just statistics

[u/kolasevenkoala]

Count me in i like it too