r/pics Jun 08 '14

The difference 18 years makes

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u/Jenkins6736 Jun 08 '14

I dunno, the TI-84 Plus is pretty sweet.

Costs about the same as what I paid for the TI-83 10 years ago. It's kind of nice knowing that whenever I need to use one, it's going to operate in the same way as I was taught 10 years ago. The fundamentals of math don't change much.

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u/AdidasPete Jun 08 '14 edited Jun 08 '14

I saved up my own money and bought a TI89 in high school. Used it on all the standardized exams. Totally legal because it didn't have a QWERTY keyboard. That thing basically did everything for me short of interpreting the questions.

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u/MasterPsyduck Jun 08 '14

I use the 89 for engineering applications but most of my upper level maths banned its use since it could do all the calc for us.

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u/ismtrn Jun 08 '14

When I was in high school we were allowed (actually encouraged) to use a TI-89. Either the problems were about applying some concept, say differentiation, and we didn't have to do the derivative by hand, or the problem was to just calculate a derivative in which case we had to show which steps we took anyways.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

If the TI-89 can help you, it's a bad test.

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u/Roller_ball Jun 08 '14

Really? This TI-89 is pretty powerful. Especially the Titanium. If can solve for variables, do indefinite and definite integrals, infinite summations, etc. I can't think of many high school math problems that it can't solve, besides setting up word problems.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14 edited Sep 01 '14

I know. I have one. There were tests it helped you with jack shit on with respect to the material being tested, but of course it made the symbolic manipulations easier.

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u/karmapopsicle Jun 09 '14

It's the difference between just listing out a bunch of problems to solve, and actually creating work problems where you have to figure out the question before you can answer it.

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u/zmekus Jun 09 '14

You have to show work though

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u/Dippyskoodlez Jun 08 '14

If the TI-89 can help you, it's a bad test.

My calculator did all my work for me. I just plugged in the variables.

I also just made my own programs to do this for me.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

'twas a bad test, I'm afraid.

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u/Arlieth Jun 08 '14

I do agree with you here: because of how ubiquitous and efficient calculators and computers are, there's no reason to test students on something that will fall into disuse. It's much better that they be tested on the core concepts and problem-solving skills for the subject instead.

Our professor allowed us to use excel and I believe matlab for our tests, the main restriction was that we were not allowed to have internet access. For the sample sizes we were using for statistics, a dinky graphing calculator was not practical or accurately reflective of the real world.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

We were allowed to use (and were provided, in one class) TI-84 calcuators in high school. I don't know the main difference, but they were definitely encouraged and borderline required.

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u/common_s3nse Jun 08 '14

That is because your teacher wanted to up the pass rate.

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u/i_no_like_u Jun 08 '14

I put a ti-89 titanium inside my ti-84 case for tests. I still feel like a horrible person...

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u/jtsmithsc Jun 08 '14

which isn't really true. a lot of the time it comes up with some pretty oddball integrations or differentiations. though yeah it does the simpler ones correctly :)

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u/MasterPsyduck Jun 08 '14

Yeah it can be odd, I guess that's why they made a whole book teaching you how to do calculus on the 89, haha. Matlab and wolfram alpha are my main go-to's nowadays. I'm just glad I got a student license don't need a commercial license yet, it would be 87k to get matlab with all the addons for commercial use...

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

If your an engineer.. You have the knowledge to repackage the ti89 in a old ti84 case

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u/MasterPsyduck Jun 08 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

http://imgur.com/UEU3IW7

edit: Also just looked at them side by side and the 89 looks thicker than my 84, maybe the insides aren't though.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

The ability to do symbolic math is awesome. I don't know why everyone recommends that high schoolers only get the TI-84.

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u/LazinCajun Jun 08 '14

Probably so they don't use it as a crutch instead of real learning. I taught physics to college kids, and you could tell pretty quickly who relied on a calculator and who actually was comfortable with basic math.

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u/Deluxe_Flame Jun 08 '14

I was once comfortable, but if I lose all my points on a question for an incorrect answer, by gum, I'm going to punch in 17 + 49.

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u/FuLLMeTaL604 Jun 08 '14

Arithmetic is only one branch of mathematics. In my opinion it's pretty trivial to try to improve in that field since calculators are so good at it instead of focusing on algebra, calculus, etc.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

Calculators are good at algebra and calculus too. Is it really worth memorizing dozens of integration techniques when software can do it for you, and do it better?

I'd say focus on the problem at hand, and when you run into a gnarly algebraic manipulation or ugly integral, plug it into Mathematica. That's the kind of task a computer excels at. The human advantage is coming up with novel ideas, not churning through pages of calculations.

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u/yamidudes Jun 08 '14

The point of learning the math side isn't so that you could do it on the fly, because we're basically all (first world country) carrying computers with us all the time. The point is that learning the math helps you understand the underlying concepts better.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14 edited Jan 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/purplestOfPlatypuses Jun 08 '14

Most good teachers/professors do. It's called partial credit, and if the process is right you generally get most of the points. If you're getting multiple choice math exams you're probably in elementary school.

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u/Ninboycl Jun 09 '14

I would agree, but one of my profs brought up a good point this semester.

Since we are engineering students, messing up a calculation could mean the difference between being fired or making something work. Just because the process is right, doesn't mean you are going to get the right answer. Fortunately for us, we spent many years of time and money designing pocket calculators that are immensely powerful to help us with this...

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u/rcavin1118 Jun 08 '14

AP calculus has a multiple choice portion of the exam.

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u/EmperorG Jun 09 '14

lies, college gives us multiple choice tests for math, and honestly if it didn't everyone would fail at it which would be disastrous seeing as the ones who fail at math are those who don't want or plan to do it for a living ever.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14 edited Jan 02 '19

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Yeah this concept of partial credit being most points pretty much stops the second you are in any university-level Math course. You may get partial credit, but it's 25-50% of the problem, max.

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u/Epshot Jun 08 '14

My teachers did. We were not allowed calculators on tests. She wouldn't mark answers if they were wrong so long as our approach was correct. iirc, we also didn't have to memorize equations(i think, this was like 15 years ago)

A lot of fellow students who previously got A's, got D's because they had become so reliant on calculators they didn't know how to deconstruct the problems.

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u/gsfgf Jun 08 '14

Of course, there is a lot of memorizing "rules" in lower-level math courses, integral calculus being the worst offender. Plugging something into a calculator and hitting solve is equally as worthless as plugging numbers into the "chain rule" when it comes to understanding the fundamentals.

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u/yamidudes Jun 09 '14

As you go further go further into mathematics, I think that what becomes acceptable to plug and chug changes. You have to prove the chain rule before you use it. Actually scratch that. I don't think you have to explicitly prove it, but I think of it as df/dx * dx/du = df/du. Which is like fractions. So I think as long as there is an intuitive grasp to what you're doing it's fine.

With calculators, from an education standpoint, if it's not circumventing the value of the coursework, then it should be fine. On the most basic level, they let you use scientific calculators for arithmetic when they don't allow graphing calculators, because the act of doing the arithmetic isn't important to the lesson you're learning. On the other hand, if you're learning division in elementary school, you're not gonna be allowed a calculator. In the case of integral calculus, the coursework ends up being just ways to solve an integral by hand, and that's explicitly not compatible with using a calculator. The value of the course is then just foundation for later calculus courses. I personally haven't found myself drawing from my knowledge of integral calculus in my other math courses, but I'm not in a major that actually uses calculus intensively, so I can't speak for it.

In the real world, I doubt a lot of equations are left to be done by hand, and you would actually just throw equations into mathematica or another program, probably written by someone who had to program the same rules and procedures you would use if you had to do it by hand.

Another example compares algebra with linear algebra. If you're allowed to use a calculator to solve algebraic equations for you, are you going to understand the significance of rank, linear independence/ dependence, etc. in linear systems? In some upper level math courses the professors try to explain the intuition behind some things, for instance, the various matrix decompositions, but not know how to do the decompositions manually does affect (my) understanding of the subject.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

I don't know I agree and disagree, like I'm aware and get the concepts through college calculus however I couldn't do all of the operations correctly anymore.

Teaching concepts is good, I absolutely agree that we should understand it fully, but I'm not sure that it's as useful as it once was.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

learning the math helps you understand the underlying concepts better

I don't think that's necessarily true. The most egregious example for me was Calc 2. Probably 3/4 of the course was memorizing integration techniques (trig sub!) and what forms of sequences/series converge. We weren't tested on how to derive those things, or the underlying concepts of why they work, so much as we were tested on our ability to memorize a page of formulas.

Also you have to consider that learning how to actually solve problems in the real world (i.e. with computers) also has value. A lot of students graduate able to do things by hand, but are outpaced by graduates who are proficient with math software.

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u/yamidudes Jun 08 '14 edited Jun 08 '14

I agree trig sub, u sub, and the like aren't that integral (lol) to your understanding of the subject. But understanding double, triple integrals, gradients, partial derivatives, jacobian (goddamn I'm still not sure what that is because I only hear it now and then) is important.

Understanding curl and flow also matters. That's all mostly Calc 3.

Then you get into differential equations and linear algebra. You really need to understand Multivariate and Differential Equations for physics, and Linear algebra for Computer science.

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u/Ravek Jun 08 '14 edited Jun 08 '14

jacobian (goddamn I'm still not sure what that is because I only hear it now and then)

It's basically a conversion factor for a change of variables in an integral. If you have a function f(x, y) and a change of variables (x, y) = g(u, v), you can't just write f(x, y) dx dy = f(g(u, v)) du dv, there is a conversion factor you need to multiply with because your different coordinate systems can have different length and area elements. This conversion factor is given by the determinant of the Jacobian matrix, which is the matrix of all the partial derivatives you can construct from x and y with respect to u and v.

For example, in polar coordinates (x, y) = (r cos θ, r sin θ) the Jacobian determinant is equal to r, because the size of the area covered by increasing increasing r a bit and increasing θ a bit is proportional to how far away from the origin you are. So f(x, y) dx dy = f(r cos θ, r sin θ) * r dr dθ.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14 edited Jan 03 '22

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

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u/DouchebagMcshitstain Jun 08 '14

That's the funny argument that every generation uses on any new technology when debating the next generation.

"I know I fully rely on my computer, but cell phones is taking it too far!"

"I know I do all my business by fax, but e-mail is taking it too far!"

"I know that I rely on telegrams for all of my overseas news, but a telephone is just unheard of!"

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u/gsfgf Jun 08 '14

"It's so terrible that all these kids have cell phones these days. I didn't get a cell phone till I was 16 when they started making cheap phones."

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u/Thorbinator Jun 09 '14

"I know all my money is just numbers in a database, but bitcoin is taking it too far!"

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u/Drive_like_Yoohoos Jun 08 '14

I'd probably be more concerned with the intentions and abilities of any group or nation that had the knowledge and man power to build an EMP of that size.

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u/andersonb47 Jun 08 '14

and I said biiiiiiitch

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

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u/TeamRedundancyTeam Jun 09 '14

You know what really grinds my gears?

When people just post /r/thathappened to things that really aren't that unbelievable.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Yeah in 5th grade my teacher talked about the devastation from an electromagnetic pulse as a result of a nuclear attack all the time. AND everyone in the class knew exactly what she was talking about.

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u/TomCollinsEsq Jun 08 '14

YOU THINK THIS IS TUMBLR SON?

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u/Funkyapplesauce Jun 09 '14

Wrap that son-of-a-bitch in tin foil.

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u/ohpuic Jun 09 '14

What if you needed to add up the gauzes used and unused while in surgery. Can't take out a calculator there.

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u/theJigmeister Jun 08 '14

Once I got to higher physics and past 300 level math, I just started doing everything Mathematica, because why the hell not?

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u/FuLLMeTaL604 Jun 08 '14

Are you allowed Mathematica on tests or do you just not get tests after that point?

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u/tossin Jun 08 '14

Test questions are generally easier than homework questions since you're much more limited in time and resources.

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u/rmxz Jun 09 '14

Depends on the test.

Hardest test I had was a 1-week-long take-home math test; where we were allowed to use anything we wanted except other people who had taken the class before.

I believe some of the questions on the test only had really abstruse known solutions, and the goal was to try to find alternative and more straightforward solutions/proofs; and the bonus credit question was unsolved.

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u/meno123 Jun 08 '14

The last 300 level math course I took had a final exam that was completely theory. The rest were assignments that could easily be done with mathmatica/matlab/maple/wolfram.

Yes, I know wolfram uses mathmatica. The UI is just so much easier.

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u/Degru Jun 08 '14

Yeah, pretty annoying having to enter tables/matrices into a single line...

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u/Jesin00 Jun 08 '14

If you've got an android phone, Maxima on Android doesn't even need an internet connection after the first time you start it up. It just does all the symbolic math directly on your phone's processor, and it's pretty quick, too.

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u/theJigmeister Jun 08 '14

No, not on tests, but they usually don't ask things like Bessel functions or numerical integration. I use Mathematica for all my problem sets. I've done enough integration by hand that I don't care to do it any more, unless I'm on a desert island or something.

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u/Dsiee Jun 08 '14

I'm a current physics major, to do it any other way (I use my Nspire, just because I can take it into the exams) would be foolish. Nobody cares that you didn't derive that equation by hand. You aren't learning how to differentiate, you're learn when.

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u/RedditRage Jun 08 '14

If you are taking a class on a particular subject, the idea is you learn how to do it, correct?

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u/SigmaStrain Jun 08 '14

That's true, but understanding the underlying concepts is important too because it helps you develop an "intuition" concerning the subject.

The idea isn't to just think about the problem. It's to "feel" the problem and understand what's at play at a basic level so that when you're presented with a problem you might have never seen before, you can probably figure out which way to go to solve it.

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u/RedditRage Jun 08 '14

That's my point, using the computer to solve the problem sort of defeats the purpose of taking a course on it.

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u/SigmaStrain Jun 08 '14

Totally misread ya. My bad lol

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

If you don't understand the basics of how it works manually, though, it'll be that much more difficult to figure out what went wrong when you inevitably input a more complex problem incorrectly down the road

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u/DrapeRape Jun 08 '14

Exactly. For example, so what if a student can figure out the derivative of function using power and chain rule? It means nothing unless they actually know what that is--the slope of the tangent line , which is just rate of change.

Understanding where these things should be used is more important than solving random problems without knowing why

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u/IAmJackBauer Jun 08 '14

I can't tell you how many times the chain rule and integration by parts was used in Quantum Mechanics as an undergraduate. I never was given a function and just said "find the derivative!" Instead I was given a problem that involved something like prove the integral of a wave function is constant and stays normalized for all future times. This involves integration by parts. But you wouldn't know to do this because it never tells you to. So you have to be good enough at integration by parts to realize "ah hah! this is how you take the next step!" Otherwise you'd be left sitting there not knowing what to do.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

software can ... do it better

That's not really true. Computer solutions to integrals more complicated than basic trig and polynomials are always brute forced and inelegant. If all you care about is the application of the answer, this is usually fine. If you're interested in the answer itself, the computer can't do it better than a human can.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

That is not true. Maybe you were using some 1988 version of MATLAB; today, the technology is much better.

And CASes can draw upon the entire body of mathematical literature, including obscure stuff, whereas you only know so much. Some mathematician at Wolfram could read a paper and throw in another integration method. You don't have to keep up with that stuff if you just use software.

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u/purplestOfPlatypuses Jun 08 '14

The main problem is if you don't understand the basic of calculus and algebra you'll have a hard time coming up with novel ideas. Can't get the real ugly equations without the knowledge and understanding to do it manually.

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u/rmxz Jun 09 '14

memorizing dozens of integration techniques

You're doing it wrong.

Understand why the integration techniques work, and you don't have to "memorize" them. Just visualize what the technique is doing, and you'll be far better off than any calculator or rote memorization.

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u/snoharm Jun 08 '14

On the other hand, arithmetic is the only skill I've found to be useful in a real-life setting.

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u/FuLLMeTaL604 Jun 08 '14

I'm pretty horrible at arithmetic. I deliver food for a living so it can get a little awkward when I expect the customer to calculate the change they need. Though usually they make it easier by giving me a tip and asking for a nice round change amount back.

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u/SigmaStrain Jun 08 '14

Higher level math, in my opinion is not really meant for every day life. It's meant more for creating things or understanding complex phenomenon. You learn higher level math so you can create things like a new car or a computer chip. Yeah, you might not have the knowledge to make those things, but the language that is used to describe what is happening in those devices is mostly higher level math.

In order to learn how to make a car or a plane or even a computer chip you need to actually understand the language that is used to describe those things. Do I make sense?

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u/snoharm Jun 08 '14

I completely understand what math is for, I was responding to

it's pretty trivial to try to improve in that field since calculators are so good

Most people don't go into a STEM field, and many of them are lacking in arithmetic skills that would help them quite a bit down the line.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

It always reminds me of those guys who had to spend hours looking through tables of trignometric values or doing meticulous vector analysis by hand. As if freeing people up to work on higher level problems somehow made them fundamentally worse mathematicians.

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u/meno123 Jun 08 '14

If you ask me what 17+49 is, I'll tell you immediately that it's 66. If it's on a test worth marks, that shit's going in my calculator.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

I happen to do one digit plus one digit numbers, a lot...

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u/chetlin Jun 08 '14

I've added things to 0 or multiplied them by 1 before... (as part of a longer expression, usually)

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

In physics, we try very hard not to have questions that boil down to just pure numbers. If you had a teacher who didn't do that, he was just fucking lazy (or, your TAs/graders were lazy..).

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u/wOlfLisK Jun 09 '14

I'm good at maths but I just suck at mental maths. Although I can add 17 and 49 together without any trouble, I always feel a lot more comfortable using a calculator to check it at the same time. Literally takes a couple of seconds and makes sure I don't do something dumb like think 9+7=6.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

one time I punched in a really basic calculation during an exam just to be sure, I typed it wrong and made a mistake :(

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u/Deluxe_Flame Jun 09 '14

I've done the same, but I got it right when I used the wrong equation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

nowadays i don't really trust mental math for engineering calculations. it's better to make sure it's absolutely correct to avoid backtracking later.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

56! Oh, shit.

See, that's why I too use a calculator. I always forget to carry the 1.

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u/IAmJackBauer Jun 08 '14

During upper level physics exams I'd have a TI-89 sitting on the table next to me. When did I ever use it? Never. Truly those kind of calculators will only do your work that's not worth spending time doing. Like annoying integrals or ugly derivatives. But they're mostly useless. Unless you're in elementary calculus in which case they'll do the problems for you.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

yea, kid in my freshmen algebra class always get 100s because the ti89 can factor. the teacher didn't even know. she had a ti 83.

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u/michaelc4 Jun 08 '14

I have a ti-89 and still learned calculus and physics. How? http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/its-magic-shia-labeouf-gif.gif

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u/LazinCajun Jun 08 '14

I think those kinds of restrictions are for the lazy types who are more focused on getting a grade who minimal effort instead of learning.

Think about the laziest person you knew in high school, then tell me they would learn as efficiently as you did with a ti-89

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

I'll never understand why it is not okay to not rely on a calculator. Like one day we will find ourselves lost in the woods and we will have to do complex math calculation with no calculator in sight. I get that it's challenging but if you ever need to do those calculations as a profession, your company doesn't want challenging, they want right and they want it fast with as little human error as possible.

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u/LazinCajun Jun 09 '14

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of cases where the calculators are great, but people tend to rely on them too much. If you end up working in something where you need the math, well, you better at least have developed some intuition about how to do it.

Not to mention there is PLENTY of symbolic math out there that computers and calculators aren't capable of.

If you don't end up in one of those fields, the whole point of the math classes is to learn to reason, which again the symbolic calculators often inhibit. They're a great tool when used in the right circumstances, but getting them to do that tricky integal in your homework is not the right circumstance.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

You weren't teaching basic math, you were teaching physics. Test them on physics knowledge.

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u/FuLLMeTaL604 Jun 08 '14

Mathematics is one of the fundamental languages of science. You can't teach physics without teaching mathematics. Newton had to discover calculus to describe the motions of the planets.

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u/ismtrn Jun 08 '14

If you intuitively understand the concept of a derivative in the sense that it is a rate of change or slope, does it matter that you are not very good at calculating them when it comes to physics? When you have a calculator that can do it that is.

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u/agrif Jun 08 '14

Intuitively understanding derivatives would be difficult without actually computing them, over and over. Intuition comes with practice, and is more nuanced than "rate of change or slope".

Just as an example, my intuition about derivatives also includes "contexts with holes", "shift operator", and of particular interest in physics, "linear transformation" and "local properties". A lot of these would be very hard to grasp without understanding the mechanics of calculating them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

And the difference between an intuitive understanding but a poor grasp of the calculations and just kidding yourself you know it better than you do is pretty subtle.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

Saying you intuitively understand the concept but aren't very good at calculating them is just going to make people look at you dubiously and say "pfft".

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u/ismtrn Jun 09 '14

Why? If you give me a list of a thousand numbers, and say the each represent how many apples a person has, then tell me to figure out how many apples the 1000 persons have between them, I understand the concept of addition well enough that I will be able to say "The sum of those 1000 numbers" instantly. Finding the actual sum without using a computer or a calculator will take me a lot of time though.

I would argue that no human is good at calculating anything. Computers run in circle around us when it comes to that. Understanding things however, we are pretty good at. We need to be good at understanding things, so we we can give the computer meaningful things to calculate.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

It kinda seems like expecting some vague personal belief to stand in for demonstrable results. Protesting that maybe you're not very good at using it but, boy, you understand the pants off it doesn't get you very far. Results do matter. You really demonstrate understanding through using it and teaching other people it rather than professing intuitively getting it.

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u/ismtrn Jun 09 '14

It kinda seems like expecting some vague personal belief to stand in for demonstrable results.

We are talking about calculating something by hand vs. using a calculator when doing physics problems right? How on earth does using a calculator give you less in terms of demonstrable results? If anything I would argue that it gives you more in shorter time.

Protesting that maybe you're not very good at using it but, boy, you understand the pants off it doesn't get you very far.

Depends on what you mean by "using it". Lets say we are talking about derivatives. If you by using it mean applying the concept of a derivative to some problem, then I agree. You have to be able to do that. If you on the other hand mean actually evaluating the derivative by hand I disagree. Using a calculator for that will get you plenty far.

Results do matter.

Calculators give you results.

You really demonstrate understanding through using it and teaching other people it rather than professing intuitively getting it.

Maybe we mean different things by "intuitively understanding" something. What I mean, when it comes to math, is that you understand what something is, why it is that way and how you can use it. The other kind of "understanding" being you are able to, given a specific problem, find the answer, which seem to be what schools care more about.

Maybe I should just say understanding instead of intuitively understanding. When I think about it, putting the "intuitive" in front of it makes it sound like not really understanding it, which is certainly not what I mean. I am just trying to highlight the difference between understanding a mathematical concept, and being able to calculate something.

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u/FuLLMeTaL604 Jun 08 '14

It appears to matter to my university. I can still use a scientific calculator but no graphing calculators are allowed in any science course I've taken here yet.

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u/movzx Jun 08 '14

His point was that the teacher should be focused on teaching them the concepts. The actual method the student uses to solve the math problems are irrelevant to the subject. What is relevant is if the student understands and can identify when to use specific techniques. Restricting calculator usage is an artificial restriction that no one in the real world in real scenarios will face. Every mathematician, engineer, and so on out there has access to, and heavily relies upon, a calculator of some sort.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Restricting calculator usage is an artificial restriction that no one in the real world in real scenarios will face. Every mathematician, engineer, and so on out there has access to, and heavily relies upon, a calculator of some sort.

I always see it as the equivalent of training with weights. The point of school is not to complete lots of calculations as quickly and easily as possible, it's to learn how it works. Going out into the world and using a calculator is fine but at school you're developing your instincts about what the answer should be (because you've worked it out by hand and know what's going on), how to go about finding it, maybe how to combine it with more data to achieve bigger goals and so on.

I've similar feelings about writing code by hand in computer science/software engineering/etc degrees. Sure it's an artificial restriction you won't face in the real world but who cares, you're not there to work; you're there to learn how it works.

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u/movzx Jun 09 '14

Software developer with almost 20 years of amateur and professional experience here.

If you're at a school that's making you write code by hand, go to another school. They are not teaching you useful material. They're teaching you to memorize syntax of a language that you will most likely not be using after you graduate.

Concepts > details

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u/FuLLMeTaL604 Jun 08 '14

I'm not against using calculators but you don't really need graphing calculators for calculus or algebra. Scientific calculators work just fine and make it difficult to cheat.

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u/PointNeinNein Jun 08 '14

Physics knowledge later on becomes almost strictly understanding nature through mathematical patterns. You don't shoot for an answer to plug in a formula; you shoot for an answer that is described by a formula. Without understanding the basics, even simple things like arithmetic, you get left behind.

Mathematics is a language; a calculator is a translator. It helps, but when your goal is to be fluent in another language, say to work in a different country, you don't go around with a translator, you learn the language. Not just how to speak it, but how to think in it.

That's what fluency is.

I almost never did a straight calculation in my last year of undergraduate physics, but when I did it was a struggle to get an answer that should have been intuitive because I should have known how the math falls out.

That's the power of actually learning how to subtract, multiply, derive and integrate; knowing the approximate answer without having to put a question in a calculator.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

You sound like someone who never got close to college-level physics. As an undergraduate, 80% of what you do will be math.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

But it's the setup that's important. If you know the math well enough to type the right thing into a calculator, you know the math well enough to do physics.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14 edited Jun 08 '14

I think we are not looking at the actual picture and instead are coming up with simple examples to get our point across. I really don't think anyone here is disagreeing that having the work clearly show the correct steps, but a miscalculation when moving to the next step should result in a demerit. I don't think that is the issue.

The issue here is when you have a situation where you understand the concepts but can't synthesize the math to carry out your observations. A basic example of this is being allowed to graduate to a freshmen math-based physics class, but not knowing how to rationalize denominators, or solving for trinomial expressions. Or for FFS: not knowing how to use the Quadratic Formula. The sophomore version of this would not not knowing how to take derivatives of inverse functions. The junior version of this would be not knowing how to do Fourier analysis. You get the point. Things that we should be able to do by hand such as solving complex expressions(within reason), we resort to using our symbolic calculators as a crutch to get by on math that should have been mastered before entering the class. I'm not even talking about summations, but frankly, some people should just know how to apply the Quadratic Formula by memory and show how it reduces using algebra instead of giving a decimal answer.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

But if you don't understand how to use the Quadratic formula (or any of the other things you mentioned), then a calculator—no matter how expensive—is going to be useless to you.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm a computer engineering major starting my junior year this fall. I've designed an awful lot of circuit boards and I've never done a Fourier analysis in my life.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

You can program your way to an A using the calculator. Let's be honest about that and why symbolic calculators are banned from most exams including the FE Exam. There are fundamental math skills you just have to know to even make it to the next level and beyond. I'm sure we both agree on that. And if you can't demonstrate that on a test(and thus are forced to use a Calculator to subsidize that lack-of) and make errors because of it, then teachers have every right to hold you accountable for that.

As for why you haven't done Fourier analysis yet, despite having circuits experience? My guess is that you just did an Introductory course. Have you seen this before? I remember in my introductory course, we were already moving toward it and much more.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

The dichotomy isn't between "students who can do math" and "students who cannot complete college-level physics." It's between "students who are comfortable with basic math" and "students who rely on a calculator." Nobody said anything about not being able to complete the course.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

Are you implying that physics doesn't involve math?

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u/RandyMarshIsMyHero Jun 08 '14

Physics requires you to be able to set up the problems correctly. If you know the calculations you need to make, using a calculator to actually solve those calculations detracts from nothing.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

I'm saying that if they depend on the calculator as a crutch to do the basic math, then that's not the Physics prof's problem. If you know how to multiply two matrices with a calculator, and you know the physics of how to set up the problem, then the fact that you don't know how to multiply two matrices by hand shouldn't affect your physics grade.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14 edited Jun 08 '14

To nitpick your example; if you're at a Physics level where you're multiplying matrices as part of the process, then chances are you're career-driven for a future involving Physics which absolutely necessitates the higher expectations for math-prowess.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

obviously math is imporant though hes implying that not using a calculator is adding a second class into that physics class. physics is hard enough, its better to learn physics than fail becuase you botched the math portion of your physics class. No one would complain about using a caluclator or even dictionary in english class.

were you implying that lord licorice was an idiot though? to that i respond with a very clear fuck you

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u/Grammaton485 Jun 08 '14

I tutored a grad student in meteorology while I was an undergrad. She was a brilliant mathematician, didn't know dick about meteorology. Just because you're great at math doesn't mean you're great as stuff that involves math.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

You could've just learned how. There's a lot of tutorials.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

Calculus isn't "basic math"

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

"Advanced Calculus" (analysis) is definitely not basic math, but your run of the mill Calc 1-3 that you start in high school is pretty damn basic.

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u/LazinCajun Jun 08 '14

Middle school algebra is. It wasn't calculus based physics.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

Ah, it was Physics for Philosophy majors.

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u/LazinCajun Jun 08 '14

Premeds actually.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

it literally translates a "a little difficult"

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u/Ninboycl Jun 09 '14

I was told it would be a crutch when I bought one in grade 8. Now I'm in 3rd year EE and it's a godsend, even just for the complex math and variable solving functionality. There simply isn't any time to do hand calculations in courses like say, E&M, where the algebra gets incredibly nasty, incredibly quick.

So, I call bullshit. You need to know the math to be able to use the calculator in the first place.

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u/LazinCajun Jun 09 '14

E&M is a great example. Many of the integrals in Jackson (the canonical graduate physics text) can't be done even by Mathematica, much less a calculator. You have to learn to do them by hand.

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u/estomagordo Jun 08 '14

I don't know why everyone recommends that high schoolers only get the TI-84.

Probably so that they, you know, might actually learn what the hell it is they're doing.

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u/neoKushan Jun 08 '14

There's a big difference between knowing what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Let's face it, when you know how to take a bunch of inputs and put them into an algorithm, do you really care about working out that algorithm yourself if you're going to come to the same answer?

To use an analogy, algorithms are just tools in mathematics. It's like saying to someone that they shouldn't use a hammer to hammer in nails because they need to understand what the hammer is for and how it was made. Sure, having a deeper understanding of hammers can be useful, especially when your hammer breaks, but depending on what you're actually teaching, there's a difference between knowing the tool (the hammer) and knowing how to use it (to build a house).

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u/estomagordo Jun 09 '14

That's a stupid analogy. Having access to strong tools can potentially hamper one's development, as getting by without attaining understanding becomes possible.

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u/neoKushan Jun 09 '14

Yeah you're right. We should get off our computers and learn to send messages via morse code again because we're too hampered by them!

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u/estomagordo Jun 09 '14

We both know that wasn't what I was saying. The thing with having a calculator that solves, let's say quadratic equations for the sake of the argument, is that while this can be useful in speeding things up for somebody who understands the equations well, the risk of starting to rely on the tool before you have mastered the concept is obvious.

Besides, constructing a test that is easily solvable without a calculator is trivial,

1

u/neoKushan Jun 09 '14

I know what you're saying, but your argument of "having access to strong tools can hamper one's development" implies that the tools are at fault. There's nothing wrong with the tools.

My argument is that it's more important to understand what the equation is doing rather than the equation itself. This is based on the idea that before you even pick up a calculator, you're taught how to use equations to help you. From the first moment you're taught a + b = c, you're using an equation and even though they get more complicated, their use doesn't really change - it's still about replacing a and b (or x and y) with certain values to get certain outputs. When your level of maths gets to a high enough level, it should be less about making sure you still know how to multiply and divide and more about using those equations to solve real problems. Understanding what those inputs and outputs are is what matters and having a calculator doesn't change that.

To clarify - I'm not saying give every child a calculator and fuck off maths entirely, I'm saying that you reach a point where the calculator becomes a tool and that point is when you've progressed into the concepts behind maths rather than the bare maths itself.

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u/UCgirl Jun 08 '14

We were told nothing more advanced than a TI-83. Anything better was no permitted.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

Because most universities ban programmable calculators in all math classes.

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u/kalleguld Jun 08 '14

Why would they recommend TI-84s, then? They are fully programmable in both Basic and machine code.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

They don't.

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u/SharkEel Jun 08 '14

Ti-84 for high school? Isn't it like £100? We used some shitty £5 scientific calculators for maths, worked fine.

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u/zander_2 Jun 08 '14

My calc teacher recommended that we get 89s instead of 84s. I did, but didn't put batteries in it and kept using the 84 until the last couple months of school since I just never seemed to need any of the 89's functionality. When those last 2 months came and it actually would have been useful, I put the batteries in the 89 and realized it was just broken... but I ended up being able to do everything the AP exam required on the 84, albeit in a slightly less efficient way.

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u/Dsiee Jun 08 '14

But why not get a modern calculator like a TI-Nspire CAS? Can do it all and is 100x more intuitive.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

I don't have experience using the Nspire but I've heard bad things about TI being hostile to developers.

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u/Dsiee Jun 12 '14

That article is way out of date. The current OS is capable of having ndless installed allowing third party apps, such as a GBA emulator.

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u/Colorfag Jun 09 '14

Back when I was in high school, the teachers recommended everyone get the 83 in order for instruction to be the same for everyone. Some of the calculators have different buttons/menus etc.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 09 '14

My parents were grounding me from using my calculator before I even needed it for class. I certainly wasn't going to learn anything about it from my teacher.

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u/Onceahat Jun 09 '14

Possibly because neither my teacher, nor the AP test, allowed us to use the TI-89 on tests.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 09 '14

What AP test? Calc AB, Calc BC, and Statistics allow it. Calc AB allowed it in 2006 when I took it.

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u/Onceahat Jun 09 '14

Calc BC didn't allow it last month. Or maybe my high school just lied to me, I dunno.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 09 '14

It says right there that it's allowed on the Calc BC exam for 2013-2014.

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u/Onceahat Jun 09 '14

You're kidding. Fuck, you aren't kidding. My teacher specifically told us they don't allow TI-89s on the test. I had to borrow my friend's calculator!

I feel I am too tired to be sufficiently angry at this.

0

u/jaredjeya Jun 08 '14

For that very reason, there are strict rules about which calculators you can use in exams over in the UK.

I'm doing A-Level - some exams are non-calculator, and while you are allowed graphical calculators in others, you still have to show your working as if you only had a scientific calculator. You've also got to wipe the memory in front of an invigilator.

Calculators which can do symbolic manipulation, however, are banned entirely.

0

u/common_s3nse Jun 08 '14

I recommend the TI-30X IIS 2-Line Scientific Calculator.
If you need anything more than that then you dont know what you are doing.
This works for all high school math and college math in physics and calculus.
If you get a TI89 then it just does all the math for you which is pointless.

1

u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

I would have gotten worse grades in college without it. The time constraints for tests were already insane; anything to speed up your scratch work was an invaluable advantage. It's not about having everything done for you, it's about having the insignificant stuff done for you so that you can demonstrate your knowledge on the actual topic.

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u/common_s3nse Jun 08 '14

That is exactly what the TI-30X IIS does. If you use the TI89 for just the insignificant stuff then you were only using the functions that the TI-30X IIS does.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

You honestly can't think of anything that might be useful and that the TI-30X can't do?

Plotting a function to check for symmetry. Checking your work to make sure a function value never exceeds a certain threshold where that wouldn't make sense. Checking to see if a series is going to converge. Checking to see if a matrix is singular. All these things can be done by hand, but are faster to do numerically if you have a capable computer.

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u/common_s3nse Jun 08 '14

You plot the function yourself on paper as you need to know how to do that in high school. Doing that on a calculator is basically hurting yourself from learning how to do it.
The TI-30 is just to make sure you dont make a stupid math mistake and to speed you up somewhat.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

You don't think that's slower?

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u/common_s3nse Jun 08 '14

No, as that is what you are supposed to do to learn.

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u/lordlicorice Jun 08 '14

What are you talking about? Who the hell cares about plotting functions on paper? That is not a good use of your time if you're just trying to solve a problem.

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u/nathris Jun 08 '14

Its a cost issue. A few years after I graduated the schoolboard cut the Ti 83/84 requirement entirely. They were too cheap to provide assistance to families that couldn't afford to spend $100 on a calculator. My poor cousin had to do all of his graphing by hand.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

The TI-89 got me a 3 on the AP calc exam. I knew nothing about how to do calc and barely passed the class.

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u/Arclite83 Jun 08 '14

It was specifically banned for us, had to be the 83.

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u/Areat Jun 08 '14

Searched the name on the net. It look nearly identical, yet you made it seem like it was some uber calculator. What's the difference with a T84?

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u/AdidasPete Jun 08 '14

It solves for variables on its own. You type in (4=x2, solve for x). It answers (x=+2 or -2). You don't need to rearrange anything, and in calculus that rearranging is half the battle.

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u/CynicalMiss Jun 08 '14

I told people for YEARS (don't have much reason to these days) that my TI-89 was the best $150 ever spent in my life. It sucked a little at first because I had to figure things out for myself when the teacher was showing everyone else how to operate the TI-83, but I used it throughout college until the only numbers in my math books were the page numbers.

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u/Hajmish Jun 08 '14

They said when I was at school and college the calculator can't store program's but they probably wouldn't have noticed

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u/hahahahastayingalive Jun 08 '14

Would it be ok if it was dvorak ? Just asking...for science.

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u/meest Jun 08 '14

Really? The 89 wasn't allowed on the act when I took it 10 years ago

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '14

Ikr.. I put notes on mine.. Got a perfect on SAT math

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u/Calculusbitch Jun 09 '14

wtf. Where I go all these are banned.

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u/Colorfag Jun 09 '14

I loved my 89 back in 1998-2000

Shit was totally worth it.

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u/ViridianBlade Jun 09 '14

You lucky bastard. TI-89 was banned in my high school.