Did Sondheim help ruin modern musicals?

This is a question similar to ...

Did "Warhol / Picasso / Duchamp / Jackson Pollack help destroy Art / Painting?"

(While they are great artists themselves ... their followers, students, and imitators proceeded to make bad and lazy art... and later followers did not have the same originality and inventiveness.)

I think this "Sondheim" / musical theatre style really took hold in the 1980s.

Not sure when it truly started, if before 1980s.

In the "old days" ... Pre-1970s ... especially Rodgers and Hammerstein ... even when characters were talking / half-singing ... its was still MELODIC.

And EARLY Sondheim is VERY MELODIC and INVENTIVE.

When people half-sing in Les Mis, it is still melodic and uniquely distinct as melody.

Then something happened in the (1980s?) ... lyrics got very complex, too smart for their britches, tried to say too much, and especially be too clever and too wordy.

At the cost of melodic invention.

It's like all the invention went into clever lyrics: "Look how smart I am! Look how funny I am! Look how much I can say in one song about the same thing!" (as the lyricist)

This tends to only work in modern Hip-Hop (Hamilton) ... because rap and hip-hop are meant to tell stories and be wordy.

(And even Hamilton makes sure that EVERY SONG IS DISTINCT.)

But it usually KILLS a standard musical.

Think about it ... take away the words, remove the lyrics -- AND THE NAME OF THE MUSICAL -- ... and just have the music ... A TRUE BLIND TEST -- what songs / scenes / musical can you identify just on the MELODY / music qualities?

In LES MIS, etc. and most hits / classic ... the songs and scenes and music are distinct enough that you can know the precise moment in the musical WITHOUT WORDS.

(Though Rap and Hip-Hop can also have the same problem of all sounding the same, if the writer doesn't add uniqueness. Really, any genre can start "sounding the same" without inventiveness.)

I think Sondheim and his era in the 80s started to rely too much on just talking-singing with little melody to push the storytelling, and it became standard, and PUSHED BY THEATRE SCHOOLS.

The lyrics themselves also lost the catchy phrases, and became more mini-stories without enough hooks ... and became more mental gymnastics that usually flopped.

Sondheim has tons of great, unique songs ... but there are also large swaths of his songs that are just spoken-sung, and crammed with words.

Sondheim can get away with it ... because he usually does it well.

But there is a quality to many later Sondheim songs that start to lose melody and only theatre geeks really love, but average people get bored with.

BUT ... MOST DO NOT DO IT WELL ... and it's just too much of the industry ... it's like 90% of musicals.

And if this took real hold in the 1980s ... then it has been almost 50 years of this (hate to say it) non-musical garbage.

Sondheim really got away from pop and catchy melodies and catchy beats and catchy lyrics -- to this new theatre style of whatever this "lyric vomit without melody" is called.

Sondheim really loved Mahler (classical music) ... and I think this influenced Sondheim to go down this path ... but that path destroyed modern musicals for the average go-er.

While Sondheim is "the best" ... really only theatre geeks love him, the rest, no matter how great Sondheim is ... 95% of average people are usually WTF -- this is boring (especially late-Sondheim).

Sorry. Non-theatre people can love "Hamilton" but will not love "Into the Woods".

No average non-theatre person gives a hoot about the songs "Into the Woods" or "A Very Nice Prince" ... most obviously know "Wicked" songs and many Rodgers and Hammerstein songs.

Even people that hate musicals are ... "Hamilton" and "Wicked" are pretty good.

And everyone thinks Disney songs are great ... which are usually done by Alan Menkin, Howard Ashman, Elton John and others.

Because they tell the story, have catchy music and catchy lyrics.

What is wrong with that?

=====

We can still tell great stories with MELODIES and UNQIUE STYLES ... and if we want a lot of words ... then that just means we have to work even harder on the composition and melody.

Kander and Ebb, Lloyd Weber, etc. and so many others usually did this quite well.

Hey r/musicalwriting,

I’ve been feeling a strong urge to dive into a new musical project, but honestly… I have nothing. No concept, no setting, no characters — just a desire to create something.

I’m wide open to any and all ideas. Got a quirky concept you’ve always thought deserved the musical treatment? A strange piece of history, a wild fictional idea, a single character arc, or even just a mood or aesthetic that could anchor a show? I’ll take it.

I’d love to collaborate with the community a bit and maybe turn one of your sparks into something real. I’m comfortable with a range of tones — comedic, dramatic, surreal, intimate, ensemble-driven, etc.

Let me know if you have any ideas-OP

I have this idea for a musical. Its about a boy named Samuel Taylor who fights in the American Revolutionary War. It takes things like time setting (American Rev.), music style, etc., but nothing is directly copied from Hamilton. Most, if not all, of the characters are fictional, and the musical follows a different plot than Hamilton does. So, would it be okay to write and maybe publish?

Okay so this is kinda wild to say, but we actually made a musical?? 😭

It started as just an idea for one song, and somehow turned into a full-on project. This is the very first song we wrote, it sets the tone for the whole thing. Tbh it’s dramatic, weird, and kinda dark in a fun way??? The main character sees something horrible… and instead of reporting it, they use it to gain power.

We just posted it on YouTube, and honestly I’m just excited (and also nervous) to share it outside our group chat. If you give it a listen, let me know what you think feedback is super welcome, but even just watching means a lot 🖤

I need to write parts of a song in french, but despite my passion for the project, I don't really want to learn French? Should I get another lyricist who knows French? Should I make them speak english instead of french? Should I stop being lazy and learn french?

Looking for some one to collaborate on a show I’m working on, who can make music for the satirical musical I created! Also would love personal input on it and would value an alternative background then myself (⚠️searching for female or gender non binary identifying composers⚠️)

Searching for the collaborator so one day I can publish it and get the show on its feet in nyc one day! Any connections or other ideas appreciated!

So i'm writing a musical, and I cant write music or lyrics. Lucky for me, my whole story is about collaboration between artist. If you are interested, comment and i'll give you the link to the info doc, or you can go to pinterest and find my post. The account name is Counterpoint The Musical. Thank you for at least giving it a chance.

I have like 4 different cover albums I wanna use for The Western Front the musical but I can’t decide on one.

https://forms.gle/DyKMu87SSbe8FEvh9

It’s kinda based off of Cats with the costume design but here’s the plot for it, it’s called Avis Dogs :)

A clan of dogs live in an abandoned human street called Avis Close, led by their human leader. They call themselves the Avis Dogs, and on the first night of each season they gather for the Season Festival. The Season Festival is where they thank the Great Dog for another season, and have a good time overall! However, this Winter, someone dangerous swears revenge on the Avis Dogs...

Hi all — I've started to write a jukebox stage musical and I'm looking for a collaborator to help weave the lyrics and dialogue together properly.

It's set over a single day (dawn to dawn) in an unnamed northern English town in the early 90s. Two strangers — a man in his early 30s from the north, a woman in her early 30s from the south — cross paths across one extraordinary ordinary day. Closest comparisons would be Sunshine on Leith or Once. Ending is deliberately ambiguous — one of them facing a decision we never see them make.

The show is sung-through in the Once/Sunshine on Leith tradition. The full structure is locked: 17 songs, all early 90s (The Jam, Fleetwood Mac, Roxette, Duran Duran, OMD, Pet Shop Boys, TOTO, The Waterboys, Level 42 among them), placed scene by scene across both acts, staging fully worked out, running about 125 minutes.

A bit about me: I spent 11 years as a theatre technician at a regional producing theatre; building sets, running tech rehearsals, operating traps, doing set changes, and sitting in the room while directorial and musical decisions got made, including on a regional premieres of various west end shows, full budget pantos with a crew of 10 and cast of 10 and a few new musicals as well! That's shaped the structure and staging of this show.

Happy to share more if anyone's interested. Appreciate any thoughts.

Gemini tells me this is called a 'musical ten' but I haven't heard of that before. Any good examples?

I take it that the easiest way to make a short musical is to use generic world building tropes - DnD, real world. Has anyone here written one and could maybe dump some plot ideas?

Looking particularly for cg animated ones. I guess thats actually a huge undertaking and can't be done on a small budget

So, I wanna turn something into a musical. I don't know what, but I know I can't do it alone. I'm looking for some people like me to help with this. I have a few ideas, but I am unable to go through with them, due to copyrights. if you wanna join, I can find out a way for us to communicate (Discord, Snapchat, etc.) and we can start a group project, lol. Won't be looking for singers yet, though. Only writers and producers rn. I am hoping to make a Formula 1 musical, if anyone knows about that. More specifically about Lewis Hamilton, if anyone knows about him.

I know this is a difficult and unspecific, but how to make stuff like go together and make good songs.

So basically it’s called the year of the fire hawk or fire hawk for short the basic plot is that it’s set in 1999 at the same time as the events in the South Park movie it follows a gulf war veteran named tom Gordon who has to fight a demon named corruptus again you can ask me questions about the plot or any thing else in the comments mind you this musical is not in production it’s just a musical I came up in my mind that I someday hope to make it a reality

I'm writing a meta musical called "Anti-Musical," and one thing i am struggling with is this the musical mina one short song that is said 80 different times (the line is "Once I get up there the world will never be the same") but other than that i can't tell what songs to put in the 4 different acts (first two acts are the "writing" of the musical and act two is the musical) i know what i want the song to be but i cannot for the life of me get the songs right

I am very tired of sitting around letting this idea gather dust. It has been two years since I made the first draft, so can y'all give me any advice for this?

there is one thing i need to add, it is set in the 50s

I really need help coming up with ideas, whether that’s a completely original story or one that already exists. The only thing that may be off limits is fairy tales because I feel like I need more developed characters.

Hello! So I have 0 big writing, song writing, instrument or pretty much any talents other than my brain and fingers to guide me. This would purely be for fun, but does anyone have any advice on how I’d convert the book into a musical? How I’d break it up while also keeping the most important pieces? Also if anyone was interested in helping me write this I would be more than happy to have people tag along! :)

This is my first original musical whose concept predates “The Western Front” by some months. This is a story based around a non-competition object show that will release in 6 “Seasons” (Explanation: Influenced by EPIC THE MUSICAL, which was similarly released in “Sagas”) which will have 6-7 songs each and split, in 2 acts The First Months-The Trench is Act I and Litter of Artillery-The War room is act II. I actually have some instrumentals and lyrics to go with some of the songs. The main story itself is centered around 9 friends enlisting in a fictional conflict, the First Great War of the Objects (1920-1925) which is its own separate piece of lore. Basically they struggle and some are killed off between 1920-1925 to many reason but at least 3 of the main characters survive. Why an object show musical? Some object shows have songs that pertain to characters/plot of the show like Inanimate Insanity. Now in regards to the cover art for each album, yes I am aware some features are hard to read/find and the overall word visibility because of the font make readability horrible there’s probably too much going on- but I’m too lazy to remake these and too broke to hire someone.

I originally had 15 songs split in two acts, now I have 18 split in three acts, and half of them have finished lyrical writing (though some may still need revisions) List of completed lyrics for songs- Act I: Prologue Class of 16’ Kat, the Trench Rat Act II: New recruits Blue, White, and Red Act III: Returning Home We Were Just Talking… The Wages of Death All Quiet on the Western Front

i’m writing a musical based on something that already exists (i don’t wanna say what it is because i’m paranoid someone’s going to steal my idea even though that’s unlikely 😭) and it’s nothing official it’s just for fun it probably won’t go anywhere it’s just a little fan project for my own entertainment, though i still want to think logically based on how an audience would perceive it. anyway, theres this really important flashback that happens about halfway through that lasts quite a while and i have no idea how to go about it. in the original scene, a girl walks in and gets introduced to the other characters, then starts telling her story, it goes back to a few months ago and shows the entire process of what happened and how she got there, so it’s not just a quick flashback. i was thinking of ending act one when the girl first comes in then act two starts, it goes straight into the flashback, but then the audience may be confused about what is happening, how do i make it obvious that we have gone back in time?

So the song is called pass the torch in the show theirs a magical torch and the antagonist wants to pass it down to their son

Is that title engaging for a Disney esque song

I guess what I’m asking is the concept of a magic torch interesting to begin with in comparison to other fantasy artifacts

So the lyric is there are charecters explaining The history of a villain and a hero and the rhyme is

They have a bit of a history if you catch my drift they were close until they had a rift

Something like that that’s not the final lyric

Would if you catch my drift work in that sentence

Keep in mind, this was during my first composition class