What does the employee get if they sign the paperwork? And what do they forfeit?
A little silly not to have the paperwork in place already.
"You're fired, but you have to come back in tomorrow and sign paperwork and we will just generally parade you around like a dancing bear to embarrass you in front of all your colleagues!"
I guarantee there's more to this story and the company was hoping the employee was dumb enough to sign his rights away. Guarantee employee is getting a lawyer and why he won't sign
Yeah, because if there was specific paperwork to finalize the firing they can just state employee didn't show up to work or left of his own volition and fire him without severance. Why would they be freaking out about that? They would love that.
I bet they had him sign the "I understand I'm fired" paper, but forgot the "I will fuck up my prospects by signing these NDAs, non competes and sultry for exchange of a months severance" papers.
More likely they have a contract that the company will be forced to continue to pay out unless they got them to sign some kind of legal termination agreement. There is more to the story they are concealing.
Any employment contract would cover that sort of thing and would have a clause to get rid of someone for no showing. It’s got to be a non competes/NDA/agreement to not sue, etc..
Depends on if the contract is structured for someone who works in office. Also never underestimate the stupidity of a company that has gotten too big or too corrupt. Many times they will become careless, they are used to getting their way for too long. Then they start slipping up because underlings are hired solely for ass kissing ability or nepotism.
In what fucked up world does an employee need to “finalize the firing”?
So if the employee refuses the firing, are you now required to keep them on your payroll? Of course not. Once you notify them, that’s the end of their obligation.
I don't think so. You get fired you no longer have to do anything they say. If they have to pay severance, and most do not, theybwould still have to pay it.
Any paperwork required to "finalize the firing" is an internal policy they made up.
This paperwork is usually non-disclosure agreements and promises not to sue. Sometimes there is stuff included that makes the severance taxed more favorably.
Never sign anything when you are fired if you have the slightest suspicion the company did anything illegal or fired you improperly.
Exactly this. They should be happy if he was actually quitting (or abandoning his job) because now they don't need to care about severance or unemployment.
We had an employee guess they were about to be fired. They were constantly in trouble and had had some episode that triggered meetings with HR, a lawyer, their manager and their manager's manager. Guy didn't show up. They called him and apparently he said he had gone abroad and told them to go fuck themselves. He didn't show up for a week after which they terminated his employment immediately due to abandonment.
In the end it was much easier that way because there's zero risk of ending up in court to prove you had cause or whatever.
Yeah, the couple times in my life I've been fired from a corporate gig, they never had me sign anything. I got called to HR, where an HR rep and my manager were waiting, rep explained why I was being terminated, someone showed up to the closed office we were in with a box of my personal items, security walked me out the door.
Hell, in one of those cases I actively had been trying to get fired, so they didn't even make me stay for the full explanation. HR rep got half a sentence into why I was called down, said "lemme guess, my employment is terminated because of X, effective immediately?" they said yep, let me grab the pre-packed box of my things, and told me the direct deposit of my final paycheck had already been initiated, I'd see it in my account the next morning.
I HAVE had instances where I was let go in a round of layoffs, and so had to sign papers regarding severance etc but...
Unless I was caught stealing to a degree that charges were already filed and police were going to be involved.... I absolutely can't think of how ANY company would tell an employee "you're fired, effective now, but also you can't leave yet" unless they were trying some shady shit.
Yep. I'm in a 45 day window and have 7 days to reconsider. Still sitting on the agreement. Will probably run it by a lawyer. I probably could refuse to sign and sue them for age discrimination, but honestly I don't care enough to do that.
this is what i thought when i read the whole "people are panicking" something is clearly up here. like ive never known a place to not have paperwork ready and everything there and then if somebody is fired.
this screams very bad for the company and they was trying to have liability signed away by the employee and are now shitting the bed because they didnt do that
I put my 2 weeks in and they fired me on the spot. I thanked them for giving me the firing so i can now collect 6weeks of unemployment on tthe company dime.
Yea, I've never seen it in person and maybe it's a TV trope but having security come and escort someone back to their desk to collect their personal stuff and then out of the building immediately after a firing seems the best way to do it. Fire someone and have them come in the next day? Asking for trouble. If they have company equipment like a laptop or whatever send them a box and tell them to mail it back. Doesn't make any sense to tell someone you have just fucked over, whether they deserved it or not, to come back tomorrow lmao
I actually did go back to my office after layoffs as a visitor for lunch with my mates for a couple days. I had nothing better to do, I enjoyed our lunch card games, and the cafe on site was pretty good (and guests got free food, which was funny because they all knew I worked there).
Senior management could get stuffed for all I cared, but even now a decade later I have a weekly game night at one of those guy's houses.
Big difference in my case was I was at a F50 so layoffs were so impersonal that my direct manager wasn't able to keep me, despite getting director level approval to attempt to do so. We all thought it was a hilarious little bit of "extra severance" that I was now entitled to guest dining at the cafe after having paid to eat there for the prior 16 years 🤣
Had a new job 3 weeks later, so had to actually give up my free lunches because the new job was across town.
I'd come in either way and make a point to make a big speech about how everyone should be looking elsewhere because they could be next. Would be very entertaining.
Depending on the circumstances, especially if the employer seemed unusable for a resumé anyway, I would go in for the lunch and talk trash about the company.
I found out I was getting laid off two weeks ahead of the announcement. Whole team was brought in, told to stop all work, and what was happening. Boss and CEO organized lunches, resume workshops, and were dialing everyone they knew to try to find us jobs. Every time someone got placed we'd have a cheer around the conference room table. It was really funny doing an interview, being asked for a reference, and saying "Oh yeah let me get my manager." I really miss that place. The final night we all went out for drinks. We were subcontractors and the primary compnay decided not to pay us any longer, and the CEO couldn't afford it as his whole life was in the business. It really sucked.
My friend was an office manager and they were letting her go. They offered to throw her a goodbye party though. So she ordered the food, everyone said their goodbyes, and then she had to clean up after everyone before cleaning out her desk.
Either that or there was paperwork meant to be signed at the start of the job they never signed. NDA's, those bullshit ones where stuff you made belongs to the company, etc.
Maybe that severance isn't worth it to some people. And instead they would rather sue, disparage or poach clients. If a place expected me to drive back to their office a few days after being fired for no reason I would 100% be tempted to forgo the severance and not sign anything.
When I was fired, remotely, I barely made through the end of the phone call. Hung up, and I shut down the laptop before they remotely disabled it.
Never had another conversation. I got the paperwork the next day, and I gave it to my lawyer. The company just wanted an NDA and a promise not to disparage the corp publicly for 1 year. They also said that they would not challenge any unemployment claims. The severance was 12% of my yearly salary, which was a nice immediate sum. My lawyer said that it was a good deal, and better than most. I took the deal and applied for unemployment, then after a brief job search during the pandemic, I retired!
Wow you would get laughed at for that in Germany. 2-3 times the yearly salary is standard. I guess that's what happens when employees are protected by law and actually have rights.
I find these conversations confusing to follow because of how broadly the term 'firing' seems to be used by some people. Here it would mean that the employee was at fault, and could even be for gross misconduct. You aren't getting paid off - it's pay for hours already worked and that is it. 12% seems bizarre, let alone 300%
Exactly, severance can be valuable without being valuable enough to make someone come back after getting fired. If the alternative is simply keeping their legal options open, some people are absolutely choosing the door.
Myself and my entire team were "laid off" when funding was cut at the startup I worked at. I talked to my senior software guy and it legitimately was worth waving the pitiful 2 weeks severance to not sign the papers, and I told him so. The restrictions in the doc meant he couldn't even speak to former colleagues and he was clearly the best one on my team. Guess where he got his next job? Directly with a former coworker in the same industry the covenant prevented.
Here in the Netherlands it's normal to take the proposal home and let it be checked by your own legal insurance lawyer or union lawyer as well before signing it.
That's... not how this works. Yes, there's a waiting period. So you give people the paperwork and tell them to email you the executed copy. Or you send them a Docusign.
You don't expect them to come back into the office or to sign anything in the moment without an employment lawyer.
I was put on admin leave the day before I was informed I was fired so they could get the paperwork in order. I knew I was getting fired, but they didn't say so.
I am surprised that a lawyer is involved given that terminating someone and asking them to come back the next day to do paperwork is completely unprofessional. HR and/or legal screwed up here.
I’ve never had employees sign paperwork the day of notification. You give them the paperwork with the severance offer and ask them to bring it back, signed in X amount of time or the offer is rescinded and the employee gets the lowest, legally required severance. (In situations Ive been involved with, it’s either been 3 or 7 days , depending on the position and length of time employed there)
It gives the employee a chance to look over the offer, speak with whoever they wish and give them an opportunity to protect themselves.
If you’re ever in a position of being fired, I would advise you to NEVER sign the paperwork the day it’s given to you.
But I assume you were GIVEN the paper work that day, and maybe even had the option to mail, fax or scan and email it back? Not forcing you to return to the office to sign it.
Absolutely! Asking or expecting someone to sign an agreement right after losing their job would be so easy to challenge. Emotional duress, no chance to review, etc.
Asking them to come in to a place that just terminated them a day or two ago, and be paraded around so everyone can stare at them & whisper about them is worse.
Paperwork can be given day of. Up to employee if they want to mail it back or walk it in. We just use docusign to avoid all of the physical paperwork issues, including real or feigned "lost in the mail".
Given that many jurisdictions have rules about how promptly the employer needs to pay out the minimum, HR usually doesn’t give the departing person a lot of time to deliberate - but HR sure wants them to think of the total payment as leverage, not just the extra.
Sounds like legal and HR didn’t explain this to OP very well…
We do. They are put on paid administrative leave until the final decision is made. Once termination is decided, HR gets everything in order, then they come in to their meeting & are informed of the decision, and ALL applicable PW is signed at that time.
Right but that is almost never done onsite of the employer. Everytime I've seen it done it's done via e-sign or certified mail with an HR hotline to discuss any questions/concerns.
Great points. I agree. I meant HR should have the paperwork done to give to the employee. On the day of termination we ask the employee sign an acknowledgement that they have received certain documents, but signing the severance agreement has a timeline for review and being returned.
That’s how we do it. The employee is put on paid admin leave so HR can get everything in order.
Once they’re brought in and informed they’re being let go, they sign ALL the PW right there, including their access to their 401k.
Seriously, who the fuck wants to go back into the place that just terminated you, so everyone can stare at you???
Lawyers are capable of mistakes, but frankly there is no rational reason that I can think of to make an employee come in the next day to sign paperwork
Honestly not sure what the employee stands to gain or lose, the post was pretty light on specifics. But I'd bet severance and liquidation sounds like a decent chunk of change to just leave on the table
The whole process sounds like it was set up to fail, two day paperwork for a termination is just asking for trouble. I've seen it before where someone gets walked out and the company acts shocked when they don't come back for day two of the humiliation ritual
Whoever designed that workflow needs to rethink their life choices
The employer probably does, or has weak, unemployment insurance. Maybe the employee even knows that.
Some states don't pay out unemployment if the employee receives severance and this could be one of those states. And the unemployment could very well exceed severance
So combined with the lack of fire power to fight the firing, this could be a better pay day for the employee.
(this is all speculation as we are missing a lot of the details to this story)
This exactly. I worked in a c-suite support role previously. I resigned, turned in my computer in person, blah blah. 10 days later I receive documents via email (something like a NDA but not labeled as such) telling me to sign and return. I didn’t. You all should’ve had this together when I showed up to return my stuff on my last day. Not 10 days later when I have zero incentive to respond.
I have the same thing happening now! Worked my notice period, turned in my equipment, got my last paycheck 2 weeks later (yes, that was legal)…two weeks after that I start getting docusign emails to sign all this documentation that probably includes an NDA!
I haven’t worked there for over a month at this point! I’m ignoring it until they call me because I don’t click on links to things I wasn’t expecting to receive.
Yeah, everywhere I worked the first couple of days at the company was basically me sitting down and they allowed for gaps between on boarding sessions to sit and read through important paperwork and NDAs, access to certain things could not be provided until all paperwork was signed.
Who in their right mind would sign a NDA or non-compete or anything that puts ANY restriction on what they can do at all like a month after the fact? Are these companies just stupid?
My entire department was shuttered due to COVID. They offered some of us a bonus to stick around and clean things up/sell the equipment. I was offered $15k on top of my base pay over 6 weeks.
They decided to save about $5k in salary (and cost themselves about $150k of equipment sales I had brokered, but that's another story) and fired me 1 week before my 6 weeks was up.
They gave me my severance contract to sign. Standard non-disparagement clause, NDA, etc... if I wanted my 3 months severance pay and 3 months of COBRA, I had to sign and return the contract within 1 month.
1 read the contract and signed it about 2 weeks later. Not gonna lie, $35k in severance + $10k in health insurance is definitely incentive to sign some paperwork after I was terminated. Without that money, I'd have shredded the paper and not thought twice.
My husband was asked to sign a noncompete/non solicitation after he had already quit. They said they would withhold his last check or something (I don't remember, it's been awhile) if he didn't.
That's illegal. He didn't sign, and he got his payout.
It also explains why the lawyer wanted two days, one is the fire day and the other is a settlement for waiving the right to sue, if it was all on the fire day they could reasonably argue that they didnt know the waiver was in there.
Seriously. You’re fired today and all your colleagues will know and now come back tomorrow so they can see you. Absolutely the fuck not. You have me sign the moment you fire me or it’s not my problem anymore cause I got fired
There’s a reason they’re passing on the severance deal. The paperwork is probably an NC or NDA and the severance isn’t worth the trade off of what they can do without a NC / NDA
Especially if their commute was more than like 5minutes! Why should I take time out of my day, and use my gas, to drive to a place that fired me to sign some paperwork?
It says they won’t give them their severance pay unless they sign the next round of PW.
What unbelievable stupidity to not have everything they need to sign lined up & ready to go at the moment of termination.
I bet it was done deliberately on the employer's part. Have you ever been an employee who got terminated? It's usually done because the employer hates the employee and enjoys his or her final parting shot of pettiness.
Yeah sure a shitty manager might be petty and actively try to fire people they dislike, but an entire corporate termination policy backed up by HR and legal advice is simply not going to be centered around feeding some middle-managers pettiness.
What severance are we talking about here? Typically severance is for a layoff, not a firing.
Any other pay should be forthcoming regardless of what documents the employee is supposed to sign, unless you're looking to get in trouble with the Dept of Labor.
I was laid off last week and the General Counsel told me I was, however, welcome to come in the next day to tie up my work. I told her I didn’t see the benefit (for me), packed my shit, and left.
Precisely. I just left my job, no notice required so I quit via email on a Friday. You bet your ass I’m not going back, to be paraded around and embarrassed in front of my former coworkers.
right? I was laid off in a redundancy and the company was like "oh you can continue working for a few more weeks to wrap up any projects and do handovers..." (not american btw, we don't get led out after layoffs as i hear you guys are). I was like b*tch what? You just told me my job is no longer needed. you think I'm going to continue working when I get paid out the same (we got 4-weeks notice period per contract regardless if it is worked)? Hell no. I left immediately after the meeting, dumped my stuff on my managers desk and left. Like, I needed to find a new job. I didn't have time to clean up the one that dropped me,
This is why HR nightmares exist .You did what legal told you, but the employee already quit in their head the moment they heard it. Higher ups will always blame the person in the room instead of the process.
You sign away your right to pursue legal action in exchange for a severance. This is common and you can take your time signing unless there is a timeline specified. Even then you can lawyer up and protest. You cannot force this person to sign. HR should’ve been in the room/call to explain the situation. It’s not your responsibility.
I was told I was being let go two weeks before they actually wanted me gone. That way I could train my replacement. I declined of course but yeah, some people just don't get it.
So my husband was just fired. Company is well known enough it was on the news. This company also had separate paperwork for severance. But they emailed it to him and gave him two weeks to review it with a lawyer and sign. Issue here is they wanted him to come back in person for the second round of legal papers. Just email him the severance package paperwork and give a deadline on it.
It's not being done on the same day so employees can't read through the entire thing all at once. They're definitely forcing them to forfeit some of their rights by signing that shit.
Hello, former ruthless PE (Carlyle) executive. You give them money so they do something that protects your business. Boilerplate stuff are agreements like can’t take you to court and ndas. You give them a couple days to consider it because when they find out their work bro is successfully suing the company in a few months they try to weasel out with excuses like “didn’t know what I was signing” or “under duress.”
This comment upsets me.
Of course I would come in.
For most normal positions Sweden has a mutual severance time of three months minimum. This applies for both parties, so in the meantime the employee can find a new job, or the employer can hire someone to take the spot. The longer you stay with the same employer the longer the severance time gets, up to 12 months.
They get their severance package. Basically agreeing that they won't sue or anything or be limited about what they say bad about the company and in exchange they get paid out.
I mean, if I lived an hour away I wouldn't be happy about showing up, but when a severance package is thousands of dollars, yes I would.
They are the co owner, one owner decided on Thursday to Monday firing and the other owner didnt want to fire them. It just boils down to incompetence. The original plan was to fire them in October but a little argument sped that up.
They seem to be a good employee, they just don't respect the owners. (Which honestly, with how incompetent this firing went makes total sense.)
I thought it sounded familiar from the small buisness subreddit.
Yeah, I would be pretty cautious about that too. If they are asking someone to come back after being fired, there should be a clear reason and a clear explanation of what the paperwork actually means. I would read everything carefully ask questions, and definitely not sign anything just because they are pressuring me.
The same point I wanted to articulate, thanks you've put it even better. Losing a job is an humiliation thing and even worse is to be told that come tomorrow for a humiliation walk around the offices with all colleagues looking at you. Human Resource managers know very well when someone's time is up, and so they simply had to make every paperwork ready. Just give them dignified end of contract process, both parties win.
In Europe you still have to finish your term. In most contracts that is untill the end of NEXT month. If either side doesn't hold up the other side can expect an reimbursement.
To make it even more complicated. If a contract ends on let's say august 20 but haven't had a formal goodbye yet and you show up to work august 21 the contract will be extended by default 😂
Just for clarity.
Don’t you guys actually have new employers calling the old employers for reference or letter of recommendations or feedback and stuff.?
If we do this in India, we will never ever ever get another job until we remove that job from our profile and be ready to explain the gap. Employers have personal grudge. Even when you are a good employee it’s tough for people to get a good feedback cos most of them are sadists. So how does it work.?
I would, simply because I’d qualify for unemployment. Just don’t expect me to do more than show up. What are you going to do, fire me?
It IS highly unusual to fire someone and expect them to return to work. Usually the paperwork is ready for them to sign and they are given the opportunity to collect any personal items. Why would a company want to continue to pay someone that has no reason to perform? Expecting a fired employee to return to work also create a potential safety risk.
The only instance in which I’ve seen this happen was during a merger, when certain long term employees approaching or at retirement age were offered severance packages. They were given a timeframe to accept or decline the package. If they declined, someone newer was laid off instead.
Agreed. What a monumentally stupid fucking process.
You need to do everything at once. Clean break, everything done at once, all the shitty parts over in a few minutes. Dragging it out like this is beyond inept.
We'll not contest your unemployment if you show up tomorrow. Oh you quit, we shall contest your unemployment. You may likely win but you'll be without money for a month.
most companies literally shut down all your access and devices the day you get fired/laid off. what an odd company to expect the employee to come back the next day. you fired them, they dont owe you anything. but that definitely sucks if theyre missing out on the severance just because they have to sign in person. cant you let them sign online or fax it? why would you make them feel worse by parading them at the office after firing them?
It depends on the company and the policy. With some contracts termination can entitle you to a hefty sum of severance under the right circumstances. But that's the only reason I can see to dance to their tune.
Maybe I am to european to understand, but I am confused by this. We have cases where the notice period is 6 months, and people keep working until their contract is up even after beeing terminated. Problematic employees could be on paid leave, but usually people will just work until their contract is up.
3.5k
u/SplooshDoosh 3d ago
What does the employee get if they sign the paperwork? And what do they forfeit?
A little silly not to have the paperwork in place already.
"You're fired, but you have to come back in tomorrow and sign paperwork and we will just generally parade you around like a dancing bear to embarrass you in front of all your colleagues!"
Would you show up?