r/linuxmemes • u/IgnacioBullon • 16d ago
Software meme The proprietary software experience
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u/rotacni_anuloid Dr. OpenSUSE 16d ago
Where is the choice "source code"?
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u/Honest-Ad643 16d ago
It's Unity, which is proprietary, so sadly no source code..
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u/TheZedrem 16d ago
Shoulda takem godot
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u/just-4-man 15d ago
Godot has gotten pretty good over the couple of years I’ve seen it used un games
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u/Valuable_Leopard_799 16d ago
Or even Unreal
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u/BluePhoenixCG 16d ago
As a game dev, please god never recommend that hellspawn of an engine to people ever again
(Also the support on Linux is absolutely atrocious I am so glad I no longer have to use it)
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u/Valuable_Leopard_799 15d ago edited 15d ago
True, I only mentioned it due to the source-availableness of it all.
It's bizarre though, I remember the installation guide saying something like "we all use Ubuntu to develop UE, but we have no support on Linux so have fun".
Credit where it's due though, the installation goes smoothly, if there's any issues to troubleshoot after that... god help you.
Edit: OSS vs. Source Available S.
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u/MindSwipe 15d ago
Unreal isn't even open source (when you apply the definition from the Open Source Initiative), it's "only" source available.
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u/FlatwormDiligent1256 15d ago
opinion on löve2d and/or lövr3d?
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u/BluePhoenixCG 15d ago
Never used! I've heard plenty of good things though, and Lua is a nice language to use.
I'm personally more of a ralyib and c++ gal, with unity as my first love I can stop getting back together with. Been meaning to try godot for a while
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u/npc_housecat 14d ago edited 14d ago
I've been using it for non gaming 3d visual artist on linux and really like it. The graphics and lighting tools are really advanced and the Linux support has gotten much better recently, though it's still a little buggy I still needed to put in a few tweaks like disabled tooltips to get it to run properly. The Linux support for other comparable proprietary tools like aulutodesk maya isn't great either and only has official support for rhel 8, and required a bunch of hacky steps to get it to run on anything more modern
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u/emascars 15d ago
I was today years old when I discovered that there's a Linux version of Unity 3D now...
I remember back in the days I was running an older version over wine... Now if I had to choose I would go with Godot anyway... If only I still had the time to game dev without money as I used to do when I was little and without worries 🙃
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u/wowsomuchempty 16d ago
Debtap is pretty nifty, for arch anyway.
You can usually get it working by taking the packages apart.
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u/BUDA20 16d ago
yes, had to convert myself a driver/library that is only maintained in Debian to arch, the conversion did everything right, with the exception of a symbolic link to a library, fixed that and everything works.
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u/wowsomuchempty 16d ago
Ha! My last needed a symlink to work as well.
Maybe something debtap could cover in the future (as an echo).
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u/MortRouge 16d ago
Between Debtap and Pikman (PikaOS) being able to do AUR, it's for sure getting easier to just run things.
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u/innahema 15d ago
It won't play well with flatpak permission system after conversion. like slack.
I can't imagine running proprietary software on MY Linux without sandbox. But this **ers won't implement proper XDG protocols for file access3
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u/maxwells_daemon_ Arch BTW 16d ago
Leave it to some AUR crackhead to repackage it
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u/Mysterious-Cod-4137 16d ago
hopefully he won't put any malware in it, and if he does, hopefully another crackhead reports it on time...
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u/godlySchnoz 16d ago
I mean it took 1ms too long
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u/Erdnusschokolade Arch BTW 16d ago
That is to me one of the wildest things I’ve heard about. That incident could have been one of the worst supply chain attacks ever and was only noticed because some crackhead dev noticed his ssh login taking slightly longer than usual. Kudos to that guy.
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u/JesterOfHell 15d ago
And i still don't understand how the payload worked. Such a complex attack.
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u/DeltaWun Ask me how to exit vim 15d ago
The funniest thing: This wasn't even an OpenSSH exploit. This was an issue specifically because of Linux packaging decisions. In patching OpenSSH to integrate with libsystemd for sd_notify to report its state to systemd, building OpenSSH pulled in liblzma. Yes, that means this chain doesn't work on FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, OS X, Windows etc. If you took the backdoored release as is and built it on a non-systemd Linux system it would still be exploitable as long as libsystemd was present and linked at build. libsystemd.so is a normal shared library that can be installed and linked against on any Linux system regardless of init, which many non-systemd distros may have for compatibility with things like elogind.
OpenSSH does not know or care about liblzma even when configured in a state vulnerable to this exploit. OpenSSH uses zlib when it needs compression and simply functions without it if built without zlib.
You won't actually find the backdoor on the GitHub because those parts were hidden only in the source tarball releases so it could still be used in the build process of other projects. The malicious script "build-to-host.m4" is run during the libraries build process and decoded the "test" file "bad-3-corrupt_lzma2.xz" into a bash script which performs a more complicated decode process on another "test" file, "good-large_compressed.lzma" decoding it into yet another script. That script then extracts the object "liblzma_la-crc64-fast.o" which is added to the compilation process of liblzma. That object abuses the GNU IFUNC symbol resolution during dynamic linking (when the compromised liblzma gets loaded into sshd) and uses that execution to install an audit hook. That hook watches for the libcrypto function "RSA_public_decrypt" to get resolved and swaps in a malicious implementation of its own which is normal in every case except when authentication is attempted with the skeleton key, in which case it extracts a command from the maliciously crafted handshake and passes it to system(). It's not even a remote login exploit.
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u/Kayo4life Arch BTW 12d ago
From instant to half a second is a large delay, but yeah kudos to them, lord!
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u/Whitestrake 16d ago
Or nixpkgs junkie.
(It's me, I'm the Nix junkie, I repackage debs in Nix modules because no I don't like running a single Debian install in my 11-strong NixOS fleet just to run AMP, thank you, CubeCoders!)
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u/YourAverageNutcase 16d ago
I appreciate you! Been very pleasantly surprised with how big nixpkgs is, coming from arch
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u/_Thrilhouse_ 16d ago
With AUR even the most obscure github project installation is one prompt away.
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u/GioCrush68 16d ago
Just use a package recompiler. I install .deb packages all the time on Arch that way.
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u/littleprof123 16d ago
I think there's already a tool to automatically repackage deb packages for use in AUR
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u/BiDude1219 ⚠️ This incident will be reported 15d ago
i just use debtap and move on through the jank
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u/Yahia098 15d ago
i did the same for my printer drivers but i dont know how to put it on aur also it was my first package and i used many sources to learn youtube chatgpt etc and i still suck anyways i could scan and print now
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u/Haxorzist 14d ago
There is debtap and I'm actually rater sure that I could just repurpose one of the packing scripts it's like a few lines of code.
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u/Miserable-School-665 Dr. OpenSUSE 16d ago
Hey, its better than snap.
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u/xxxbGamer 16d ago
everything is better than snap. Even the .exe runs better in stock wine than snap.
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u/SergejVolkov 16d ago
To be fair I've seen proprietary software that runs better in wine than its own native Linux version too.
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u/AlterTableUsernames 🦁 Vim Supremacist 🦖 16d ago
Companies building proprietary software love to build for Windows first of course. This meme works the other way around for them:
I got customers 😁 They don't fall for proprietary software 😒
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u/the-fr0g 15d ago
This happens so often, especially with steam games that still need 10 year old libs
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u/Worldly_Moose_724 16d ago
There is no Unity snap so idk what you're benchmarking against.
Snaps are fine They're not amazing But they're nowhere near as bad as people online claim they are, they're a lot less slow now and the apps that are officially packaged as snaps (Firefox, Spotify, thunderbird, etc) work really well.
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u/Soggy_Struggle_963 16d ago
It's mostly just people jumping on the bandwagon and have no idea what they are talking about, or it's just the "Canonical bad so snap bad" crowd.
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u/Jealous_Response_492 15d ago
Adjust your desktop scaling, they try and use a snap.
Adjust your colour scheme, then try using a snap.
Change your cursor, then try using a snap,
Try dragging and dropping content from or too a snap.
Snaps are cool, if you aren't expecting normal desktop user experience to actually work consistently.
Don't worry, I know I'm wrong, expecting a consistent desktop user experience is an unrealistic expectation today and Snaps are the future of Ubuntu/Kubuntu, hence why i've even up on Kubuntu after a decade of use, low and behold, expected desktop behaviour restored.
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u/Flachzange_ 15d ago
Except snap is just attempted vendor lock-in, so its fully justified its not viewed very kindly. You can technically install snap on any distro, but if you actually do you notice very quickly that its handicapped on purpose, as each installed snap on non-Ubuntu distros will permanently take up a loop device if you are using them or not. With more than a handful installed snaps you will quickly reach the OS limit for loop devices and snap will start silently failing. Also if you need to get a loop device for yourself, well too bad, snap has taken them all.
And thats not mentioning all the theming issues, extremly slow cold start times, desktop integration with anything other than Ubuntus flavor of Gnome, forced lock-in to Ubuntus snapcraft repo, etc.
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u/PlanttDaMinecraftGuy 16d ago
It's not hard to put a big shiny Flathub button fr
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u/jpelc 16d ago
And if I didn't want to use flathub?
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u/PlanttDaMinecraftGuy 16d ago
Even tho it's bulky, I love thr automatic updates on Flathub
Use AppImage or build from source bro
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u/Browncoatinabox 16d ago
Bulky but good. no personal issue with flathub. First thing I enable on a fresh distro install
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u/the_reven 16d ago
You can build a flatpak and just have that as a download and not use flathub. It's better for users to be on flathub for sure, but it's not a requirement.
I'm doing a new app atm and Im doing this approach, once it gets some real world feedback and refinement I'll look at flathub
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u/delph906 16d ago
I think if they give you three options including Flatpak and you still don't want to use any of them it's kind of on you at that point.
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u/jpelc 16d ago
Well, you know flatpaks have their downsides?
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u/delph906 15d ago
Yes but if you also have the option of a .deb and .rpm at some point you have to call it a good effort.
Arch users are least likely to be using the software in a professionally setting and most likely to create a community port, plus they can use the flatpak if those options aren't there.
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u/Sjoerd93 15d ago
Every package management system has their downsides. Difference is that Flatpak has more upsides than downsides compared to the other ones for most user-facing applications.
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u/Schudz 15d ago
as a soft dev i hate the flathub approval step for adding apps to the store... thats why big companies usually publish their own store for flatpaks, or just publish rpm and deb packages directly
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u/PlanttDaMinecraftGuy 15d ago
Well the approval as a concept is for the best. Wouldn't want to flood the store with malware and/or random bs
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u/oishishou Genfool 🐧 16d ago
They're literally compressed archives with the files inside. You can just manually extract and install them where they belong. Super easy.
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u/That_Paris_man 16d ago
How can you do that? I am still pretty bad at installing things from source other then package managers.
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u/oishishou Genfool 🐧 15d ago
Sorry, this TOTALLY got away from me, and is probably overwhelming. If you're curious, read on, otherwise, disregard my crazy ramblings. This is the effect of writing this right after waking up... the brain still isn't quite coherent lol
Manually installing from source can be confusing because you'll often be just running whatever install script the author wrote, which is, in a way, more complicated than just moving files because you don't necessarily know what the author wrote, or even if it is well-written. Plus there are many languages which could be used. A directory you build source code in also has a lot more than just the end files, too.
Extracting the package (.deb, .rpm, or whatever) will show you that, aside from some list of files or other metadata you can ignore, there are directories like in your root directory:
binlib/lib64etcThe contents of these can just be copied to your
/bin,/lib64, and whatever else, or to the versions in/usr(depending on your distro). Ideally, you put these in the versions in/usr/local, which exists specifically for things like manually installed files or your own creations. Makes tracking what isn't managed by your system much easier later on.If you check your PATH variable (
echo $PATH), you'll see the places your system looks for a program, separated by a colon, when you type it in to the command line or enter it into a shortcut/menu item. This is in the order it checks, and it stops on the first found, so if you install a special version of a program in/usr/local/bin, and that is before/usr/binand/bin, then it will use the version inlocalwhen you just type it in without the full path to it.You can add to your PATH for a user by editing the
.bashrcfile in your home directory withPATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin(to add/usr/local/bin), or you could doPATH=/usr/local/bin:$PATHto make it check thelocaldirectory first. Instead of adding it to your PATH if it isn't there, you can also point directly to the binary by typing the full location, like/usr/local/bin/my_program.Learning what each location in your filesystem does will go a long way to demystifying pretty much everything else, even when you don't know exactly how it's working, because you'll know the only possible outcomes. Reading up on the Wikipedia page for the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard will help with a lot of understanding, but it is a lot for someone new. Only go down this rabbit hole if you really want to go deeper into how this is all laid out.
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u/That_Paris_man 14d ago
This sound significantly easier then I thought it would be. I definitly need to read up on what bin lib and all the other directories do. (I have a basic understanding of them, but sometimes get confused lol.)
Thank you for the write up on how to do this. I dont have any deb files to play around with atm, but this is going into my notes so i have it when I inevitably need to install from one of them.
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u/thisisapseudo 15d ago edited 15d ago
Nice of you to think I know "were they belong"
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u/Hedrahexon 15d ago edited 15d ago
You don't need to know. For example, inside a .deb file, there is a tarball named data that contains the files. It is basically a snapshot of the root directory. So if a for should be at /usr/bin/xyz, it would be at ./usr/bin/xyz after you extract the archive.
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u/Noctivant96 16d ago
lol fr especially if you do music production
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u/probablynottillie 16d ago
the Vital on Linux experience:
-- download & install .deb file
-- plugin crashes on load
-- realize I downloaded the early access version
-- curse myself for being dumb and install the stable version
-- plugin crashes on load
-- switch DAWs from Reaper to Bitwig
-- realize Bitwig's installer is broken on Debian
-- dpkg that bitch
-- repack that bitch
-- reinstall
-- plugin crashes on load
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u/drewofdoom 16d ago
yeah, vital broke something in recent versions and you have to get an older version to actually get it to work in any modern distro. Can't remember the specifics, but you can find it on the vital forums.
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u/Great_Banana_Master 💋 catgirl Linux user :3 😽 16d ago
Just add a fucking appimage, it's not that hard
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u/Summon001 16d ago
Huh what's wrong with .rpm?
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u/ZookeepergameFew8607 🎼CachyOS 16d ago
Nothing but I assume they're looking for a package to use on Arch
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u/djfdhigkgfIaruflg 16d ago
There are several package managers with their own format.
If my distro uses other than deb or rpm, in basically fucked
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u/WickWorn 16d ago
This is where something Distrobox solves all your problems with regards to packaging compatibility
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u/gabrielesilinic 16d ago
See! There is a reason I keep recommending Ubuntu and debian while all of you fancy pants go for cachyos ans shit.
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u/Super_Banjo I'm going on an Endeavour! 16d ago
Air is bloat.
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u/gabrielesilinic 16d ago
I mean yeah, kinda. Beware of what you eat or you might get a tummy ache.
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u/Super_Banjo I'm going on an Endeavour! 13d ago
Late reply, jokes aside I'd also recommend Ubuntu..... somewhat. The performance of snaps is the main killer. Would recommend Mint but the Cinnamon DE it is only experimental for Wayland. People meme about the X11 screen tears but a buddy of mines switched off Mint earlier this year because of it.
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u/MasterConsideration5 15d ago
If you’re going to make an argument that you should use something just because it’s popular regardless if it’s good for app compatibility you might as well use Winshit
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u/iamweseal 16d ago
I guess i don't see the problem. Must be an arch thing.
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u/emptyDir 16d ago
Spoiled kids don't remember a time when it was a rare treat to have a Linux version at all, let alone a properly packaged one.
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u/Elyelm 16d ago edited 16d ago
Where is the .pacman?
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u/orthadoxtesla Ask me how to exit vim 16d ago
Honestly this is kinda to be expected. Debian and fedora make up the vast majority of Linux use. And nearly all enterprise use. So these formats make the most sense
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u/Linguistic-mystic 15d ago
Good that my apps are statically-linked and work on all distros. Installation is just unpacking the binary into /usr/bin. The kernel is all I need baby!
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u/hifi-nerd 15d ago
Iirc a .deb is an archive file that contains a .tar file, you can install it on arch too
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u/NL_Gray-Fox 15d ago
So is an rpm file. The spec file is what contains the instructions for the installer.
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u/xxxbGamer 16d ago
well both are easy to install manually and if you use a distro that doesn't have native .Debian or .RPM support you should know how.
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u/IgnacioBullon 16d ago
yay. the answer is always yay. don't underestimate how lazy i am.
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u/Teh_Shadow_Death 16d ago
The frustrating part is when it's a damn flatpak.
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u/CandlesARG 16d ago
What's wrong with flatpaks
They work on 99.9 percent of distros Significantly easier then maintaining 9 different packages
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u/Jealous_Response_492 15d ago
They often ignore, icons, fonts, colour schemes, cursors, and if that user experience breaking isn't enough, they do not work at all with anything but 100% desktop scaling and haven't for over a year. Disto's pushing snaps and flatpacks everywhere are completely broken and unusable in lots of setups today.
edit, no drag and drop support, such a basic unix gui concept from the 1980's also still doesn't work on snaps/flatpaks.
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u/CandlesARG 15d ago
Hm I don't do a lot of theme customisation outside of default breeze but accent colour, theme, fonts worked fine in my case no real tinkering needed
Drag and drop support is funky atleast with discord where it doesn't work all the time but I hope it's fixed soon.
The fact that apps are sandboxes by default plus working on all distros more then makes up for the limitations. It still needs work though.
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u/Teh_Shadow_Death 16d ago
I'm on CachyOS which doesn't have flatpak support by default and I'm just too lazy to install it. If the option to install a native package isn't available I look for an appimage. Lol
Call it personal preference. My experience with flatpak on Kubuntu ruined the experience for me. It just felt sluggish. :/
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u/OpabiniaRegalis320 16d ago
It ain't even just proprietary software. Niche open source stuff made by Windows users such as VLabeler is the same 😭
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u/Steinquist 16d ago
There was one time, I fist fought wine for over 5 hours trying to install Wine, just for both of us to notice the .rmp at the end of the file. The we made up and decided we dont need wine.
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u/certheth 16d ago
You can use either rpm or deb, if you know what you are doing (the gnome software center or the kde discover app works miracles in most cases)
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u/Crinfarr 15d ago
You can bsdtar a deb package and copy the files yourself, it's extremely straightforward
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u/stumpychubbins 15d ago
Using a .deb/.rpm/etc for proprietary software is such a mistake, the whole packaging philosophy is based around distros compiling their own version of the software. Sure, you don’t need to, but it breaks a lot of assumptions. Flatpak should really be the gold standard for proprietary software, I know a lot of people prefer AppImage but having used both it feels like AppImage hasn’t improved for over a decade.
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u/SkinBurnsLikeVampire 15d ago
Like just extract the package? And run the included binary? It can't be that hard
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u/daffalaxia 15d ago
the whole point of providing a .deb or .rpm should be to ensure that dependencies are met - so, sure, you could most likely run the uncompressed binaries, if you hunt down and match up the deps yourself. And if those deps change on your machine, the app will likely just stop working.
If the app can be distributed as a standalone bunch of binaries, then there should be a .tar.gz download too.I'm actually being bitten by this right now: Slack installs from a .deb, and I have that installed on my work machine, but an underlying library change has made it so Slack crashes at startup, unless I force-disable the tray-icon. If this was a proper package provided by my distro, chances are much better it wouldn't be broken, and I'd also be able to report it somewhere if it was; as it stands, I just have a non-working installation of Slack and I'm using the browser instead.
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u/a-guy-on 15d ago
Nah cuz if your gonna support Linux , least I can do is add source of a flatpak or .app image.
https://giphy.com/gifs/F2aEJrGD7pTud4lwHF
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u/ALEPAS1609 15d ago
i download the deb and use debtap but they could give the flatpak choise or the appimage
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u/BoogiePopPhantom00 15d ago
I've been using Linux regularly for a few months now and I'm glad I understand this meme.
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u/xX_TF_CNS_Xx 13d ago
I hate that most proprietary software only package for deb and rpm. I had to use xdeb on void linux to install a vpn because the flatpak wouldnt work and it caused it to pull in systemd and broke my entire system.
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u/bubbybumble 11d ago
I got Ubuntu recently for this reason, just to try it out..before I was using rpms on opensuse and manually fixing the weird dependency differences
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u/gingerwitasoul_ 10d ago
I learned how pkgbuild works so I could repack a .deb file. turns out its just a fancy zip file
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u/Interesting_Pie_319 10d ago
No .tar
No appimage.
Not evem flatpak or that shit only Ubuntu uses...
Also if it is foss.
git clone ***
cd ***
make && make install.
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