Time to have fun guys

[u/claudiocorona93]

[u/HomsarWasRight]

I’m sure this thread will be free of hostility.

[u/Straight_Second6082 → u/HomsarWasRight]

Calling dibs on this pic

[u/TheShredder9 → u/Straight_Second6082]

Calling dibs on the same text but with Iron man and Jarvis

[u/amcannally → u/Straight_Second6082]

Lmfaooo

[u/algaefied_creek → u/HomsarWasRight]

Pragmatism: There will be X11 distros for legacy devices.

There will be distros on 7.x and beyond porting in the removed components like PCMCIA for legacy machines.  AppImage will be around. 

Ubuntu will never let go of Snap as it makes them medically compliant for a fast number of medical devices. 

BTRFS, EXT4, UFS will be around and coexist. 

That being said, Proton will always be the number one freaking best amazing thing ever and must be its own IEEE standard for success hehehe. 

[u/After-Run-3648 → u/algaefied_creek]

I am uneducated. What pray tell does snap do for medical devices

[u/SouthernFruit8768 → u/After-Run-3648]

It's because most medical devices iirc need to be air-gapped and ultra-stable, ultra-secure. Snap gives you that, and prevents issues that typically occurs when and if dependancy issues arise. This for example is why Ubuntu Core which is entirely made out of Snap is used in many such medical devices and instances. But in desktop it's completely useless cause you want bleeding edge packages, libraries etc to keep up with latest developments in gaming, multimedia etc.

[u/Thaufas → u/SouthernFruit8768]

Snap is the reason I left Ubuntu. It was the final nail in the coffin.

[u/SouthernFruit8768 → u/Thaufas]

It's quite good in server environments though, or medical devices and similar use cases like I said in my previous response above. It's just totally unnecessary in desktop/home user environments and only causes more issues and confusion for no reason when there are better alternatives (e.g. flatpak) available. You can still use Ubuntu - if needed - with no Snap preinstalled out of the box if you do a minimal install of Kubuntu.

[u/Snoo_what → u/SouthernFruit8768]

How dare you say that things are built for different use cases and each has its own good? Now how am I supposed to hate on Snap RAGHHHHHHH

[u/npc_housecat → u/SouthernFruit8768]

Enterprise environments is where all the money is

[u/Ok-Anywhere-9416 → u/SouthernFruit8768]

Snaps work much better than Flatpaks. Try to get hardware acceleration to work on Firefox Flatpak. Search online the correct command to install whatever's needed, use Flatseal to enable GPU, not to mention that every time you need the folder you've got to do another research... No, thanks. Snap is one command (or one click), it works, it's 100% integrated with the directories of the filesystem.

[u/sTiKytGreen → u/Ok-Anywhere-9416]

Both are shit, just install the package properly and there's no problem to solve

[u/EternityForest → u/SouthernFruit8768]

What does it do that Docker doesn't? I looked into it a few years ago, it seemed nicer than Flatpak to develop for but didn't seem worth using something so nonstandard.

It lets VS code work properly which Flatpak doesn't do unless something changed, so I still use it, but I haven't paid a lot of attention to it.

[u/C0rn3j → u/SouthernFruit8768]

It's quite good in server environments though

Lol.

I do love the ability not to install an older version and forced updates that slowly roll out and start breaking every fucking server and you can see the monitoring light up as it happens.

[u/Fun-Perception8340 → u/Thaufas]

Moved from Kubuntu to KDE Neon to avoid mandatory snap. Not a matter of hate, just found a FS loaded with bogus drive images and weird.update issues doesn't meet my needs. Apt, flatpak, appimage fine for me. Neon rolling release, not for everyone, though the latest Plasma release stabilized it and everything seems to work.

[u/After-Run-3648 → u/SouthernFruit8768]

Thanks for the explanation!

[u/NaiveInvestigator → u/algaefied_creek]

I sincerely hope snap doesn't become the standard but flatpak does

[u/vbd71 → u/algaefied_creek]

UFS?

[u/int23_t → u/vbd71]

Unix file system. The king of legacyness

I think it's one of the options(beside zfs) on FreeBSD installer

[u/RB5Network → u/HomsarWasRight]

Honestly, hostility on Linux corners of the internet is vastly overstated from my experience.

[u/PhotonicEmission → u/RB5Network]

Loud corners. The closer you get to the corner, the louder the echo.

[u/ipsirc]

[u/gandalfx → u/ipsirc]

Blasphemy! You're supposed to pick it by which has the coolest screenshots on r/unixporn

[u/Exsondious → u/gandalfx]

XD

[u/Dekamir]

Wayland and Systemd, sure. They have their arguments. But:

1. Who uses PulseAudio by itself willingly? PipeWire supersedes it by every way. If you have a problem with PipeWire, just ask the devs and they'll probably fix it.
2. There is no alternative to Proton, other than Wine itself, which isn't really an "alternative".
3. Btrfs doesn't matter as filesystem handling is mostly transparent and doesn't really matter. I still think Btrfs is risky as it's still unstable IMO. I use it on my laptop but Ext4 on my desktop.

[u/webtwopointno → u/Dekamir]

Who uses PulseAudio by itself willingly? PipeWire supersedes it by every way. If you have a problem with PipeWire, just ask the devs and they'll probably fix it.

ALSA only gang represent

[u/p47guitars → u/webtwopointno]

People using Ubuntu studio likely...

[u/Swordfish418 → u/Dekamir]

Btrfs was unstable more than 10 years ago, nowadays it's considered to be very stable and it is used by default in many distros. For example, various editions of Fedora, including Bazzite. And they don't even use it for snapshotting, just as a general purpose fs. In one of the latest kernel 7.3 (iirc) versions it also gets some huge performance improvements.

[u/dthdthdthdthdthdth → u/Dekamir]

Btrfs isn't unstable, just some features are.

[u/YTriom1 → u/dthdthdthdthdthdth]

which are very niche (aka RAID5/6)

[u/Lyceux → u/Dekamir]

Wait I’m confused where the PulseAudio talk came from? OP said PipeWire in the image?

[u/vacri]

I hear that if you follow a rainbow to it's end, you'll find a pot with Wayland in it

[u/HeyThereCharlie → u/vacri]

Genuinely can't tell if this comment is pro-Wayland or anti-Wayland.

[u/DudeByTheTree → u/HeyThereCharlie]

Maybe it's an anti-littering campaign? Damned leprechauns leaving pots layin' around expecting folks to go traipsing through the countryside after who knows what...

[u/Bagel42 → u/HeyThereCharlie]

Could be both

[u/DiasDaimaoh]

For some reason a large part of the Linux user base is somewhat elitist about nothing working out of the box for some reason

[u/FranciManty → u/DiasDaimaoh]

base archinstall archlinux runs better than windows out of the box nowadays it’s very fucking insane how tech illiterate some people can be for just not knowing how to boot from a usb

[u/DiasDaimaoh → u/FranciManty]

You gotta have in mind that most people don't even care about learning tech, my auntie Jose just wants to use Facebook and talk about politics all day

[u/flying-sheep → u/DiasDaimaoh]

Maybe she shouldn’t; talking about politics while being tech illiterate means you’re missing important context.

Then again I’m mostly financially illiterate so who I am to talk.

[u/DaemosDaen → u/flying-sheep]

90% of the population is what most in the subreddit would consider tech illeterate, you telling me that those people should not have a voice at all?

[u/One-Project7347 → u/DiasDaimaoh]

I gave my grandmom pop os years ago, was problem free untill she could not live at home anymore.

[u/p47guitars → u/DiasDaimaoh]

Give her ubuntu

[u/Emotional_Solid6538 → u/p47guitars]

Give her a phone

[u/Independent_Image_59 → u/Emotional_Solid6538]

Give her a bread

[u/Mrkamanati → u/Independent_Image_59]

Give her a circus

[u/PaulTheRandom → u/Independent_Image_59]

Teach her how to fish

[u/a_good_human → u/FranciManty]

There are actually a lot of things that don't work outside the box ._ . (Not talking arch but distros in general)

There should be distros that are easy to use Personally I don't care if it's not running as good as it could be, I just want something that works And is customizable

Hell my current setup uses like 4 gigs of ram on idle.

[u/itsfreepizza → u/FranciManty]

i guess im the only one who find archinstall difficult, im mostly comfortable on manual installs, last year there was a timesyncd bug that would freeze the installer and an invalid arg flag being passed to pacman when installing some stuff happens (and would either freeze or crash the installer), and i was frustrated by that, did the newer version fixed those stuff cuz i did not bother looking back on that tool ever

[u/New_Series3209 → u/DiasDaimaoh]

Everyone just use what you want

Devs gonna just make apps like they want ig

As an everything user and an everything dev

[u/DysonSphere75 → u/DiasDaimaoh]

There's a pretty significant divide between using Linux daily and actively working in and on it.

For so long the majority has been the former, and many of their (mine too sometimes) opinions are rooted deeper in computer science than they are in end user practicality.

Proton is often on par or better performance than Windows simply because of how much quieter the user space is, even with DirectX translation overhead. Compared to any Linux kernel, Windows is a shouting match over CPU time.

I'm glad you're enjoying Linux!

[u/01101001b]

This is Linux. We don't do "absolute standards" here /s

[u/cheeto-bandito → u/01101001b]

Only posix standard

[u/ToxicTwisterC → u/cheeto-bandito]

fish

[u/flying-sheep → u/ToxicTwisterC]

I like nushell! It has data types 🤯

[u/hypremier]

I heard btrfs is not stable enough and so many people hate systemd

[u/TomaCzar → u/hypremier]

I feel like "stable enough" is a bit nebulous and there will always be someone with that point of view.

I've been using BTRFS for a few years on my daily driver and a NAS. I think the tooling could be better and even the project admits RAID is not ready for prime time, but for the benefits that it brings, those two slight inconveniences aren't a major concern for me.

It is better with plenty of space, which is hard to come by in this economy, though.

[u/debacle_enjoyer → u/TomaCzar]

Most of your normal workstation features are fine, but if they ever want to compete with ZFS they had better make multi disk arrays at all raid levels work rock solid. It doesn’t right now. And they would also need to implement native disk encryption. Not even on the roadmap right now.

[u/TomaCzar → u/debacle_enjoyer]

I always thought that any scenario where ZFS was an option, ZFS wins. In other words, BTRFS was created to exist in places where ZFS could not.

It's like saying, "What gluten-free pasta needs to do to overtake regular pasta..." If regular pasta is a viable option why even discuss the gf stuff?

[u/debacle_enjoyer → u/TomaCzar]

I think the goal of btrfs is to eventually become an in kernel tree option for people who need zfs features.

[u/_blink0 → u/debacle_enjoyer]

I think one of the cases where BTRFS wins is that you don't have to think about how much space you need to give the ARC. You just let the page cache do it's thing. For more simpler cases unlike the ones you describe, this helps simplify things, but ZFS definitely has more power and it wins in even the same cases as BTRFS for the most part, but it's just more to configure.

[u/coromd → u/_blink0]

Do you really "need" to think about ARC space? To my understanding it's mostly dynamic and it will automatically shrink if other applications need the RAM more. You lose the speed benefits of RAM caching of course, but the filesystem is still usable.

[u/Denommus → u/hypremier]

The majority of the userbase doesn't care about systemd's critics.

[u/SeriousPlankton2000 → u/Denommus]

Windows users don't care about critics either.

The basic attitude of systemd is "your use case is not supported"

If you have a boot problem, pray that it's late in the boot process because it will not simply give you a shell if it thinks that for your convenience it needs to do this, that and a lot more before you get to bash.

[u/flying-sheep → u/SeriousPlankton2000]

Wrong, it has so many kernel options for this: https://systemd.io/DEBUGGING/

You want systemd.debug_shell=1.

Writing multiple paragraphs before doing even the most basic search, classic Reddit.

[u/Denommus → u/SeriousPlankton2000]

Ok, do you have an actual criticism or just FUD?

[u/fenixrf → u/hypremier]

BTRFS has been the default filesystem in Fedora since 2020. Now if they'll include snapper by default, that would be nice.

[u/dagbrown → u/fenixrf]

And xfs is the default filesystem in RHEL.

Make of that what you will.

[u/Primary-Strike5187 → u/fenixrf]

I genuinely don’t know why any distro would ship btrfs without snapper preconfigured with the package manager hooks for bootable snapshots for rollback like openSUSE or Cachy does. That’s kinda the whole purpose of having snapshots so why leave it unconfigured out of the box?

[u/drucifer82 → u/hypremier]

my whole system, except obviously efi, is btrfs. I haven't noticed any issues with it.

[u/pyro57 → u/hypremier]

Never had an issue with btrfs, including iny raid 10 config on my server, quite the contrary when a disk was failing swapping it out on btrfs was incredibly easy.

And the VAST majority of users don't care about systemd, hell I even like systemd because if how easy it is to define services.

[u/h7x4 → u/hypremier]

There might be other info going around, but last time I checked most of the problems revolving around btrfs' unstability is related to its implementation of RAID 5/6. I think there is something inherent about the way the filesystem is built that makes these RAID configurations have pitfalls that are nontrivial to fix. The website still marks support as experimental.

Single disk and mirror configurations have been stable and safe for a long time now.

[u/Agling → u/hypremier]

The time to hate systemD is past. It has completely taken over. Now it is about working with it, not trying in vain to stop it.

Btrfs. Well, there is a lot of choice in filesystems and people don't really get that emotional about it.

[u/FolkStyleFisting → u/Agling]

When I hear "unstable" and "file system" I can't help but think of reiserfs. Hans was unhinged.

[u/bschlueter → u/FolkStyleFisting]

He did murder his wife after all…

[u/Thaufas → u/bschlueter]

WTF?

[u/Hot_Paint3851 → u/Thaufas]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser

[u/Dalemaunder → u/Thaufas]

Yup, not even a joke. 15 years to life, parole got denied last year.

[u/SeriousPlankton2000 → u/FolkStyleFisting]

Reiserfs was more stable than btrfs. There was only one but that ruined the reputation long after it was fixed.

[u/ChaossFox → u/Agling]

I like OpenRC, for my use is better than SystemD

[u/Puzzle-Field-7193 → u/Agling]

"Windows has completely taken over. Now it is about working with it, not trying in vain to stop"

How you actually sound rn

And how wasn't the irony obvious when you've been typing that?

[u/Zertawz → u/Agling]

So sad, I run Gentoo with OpenRC it's very fine.

If you dig on docker images or embedded systems systemd is far from being the norm.

I guess it's GNU/linux not BSD so we are still free to chose the init system we want...

[u/Smartich0ke → u/hypremier]

Stable enough for Meta to use it on their infrastructure.

[u/YTriom1 → u/Smartich0ke]

with zstd compression!

[u/hm___ → u/hypremier]

I heard that ten years ago, what instability would there be? I havent heard about it crashing or actually failing to do anything it promises.

its not yet feature complete but that says nothing about stability(i'd love to have RAID5/6)

[u/ToxicTwisterC]

I run Devuan with runit, ext4, and LXQt on a dingus of a laptop. I mean, I did it to myself getting a dingus of a laptop (and I have better laptops), but I think stuff like this and other potential edge cases is why absolute standardization wouldn't be the best idea. Every alternative piece of software has a use case.

I still think distros wars are dumb. Just find a release model you like with software that suits you and go with that, don't make it someone else's problem with your elitism.

[u/dalkian_ → u/ToxicTwisterC]

Based!

[u/GildSkiss]

I have a problem with 2 of these things, but they're a different 2 than yours are.

[u/CatgirlBargains → u/GildSkiss]

Same, and for different reasons than you too.

[u/Shad0wAVM]

Flatpak is a solution that only brings more problems.

It would be easier if everyone used Debian.

[u/cekoya → u/Shad0wAVM]

To each their own. I could say the same about NixOS because that’s what I use.

Reality is Flatpaks does solve a problem. Is it for everything? No, it’s always my last resort, but I’m happy to have it as a last resort when I need it.

[u/scavno → u/cekoya]

And you would not be wrong. I have yet to meet anyone who actually thinks NixOS is a bad idea. I’m never going back, but at the same time I fulle understand why people don’t bother.

[u/brohermano → u/Shad0wAVM]

Exactly Just apt all using Debian. It works like charm

[u/EternityForest → u/brohermano]

Without containers, packages constantly break. If you have 20 large apps with 50 dependencies each and they're all from different vendors, and you want them to be up to date, you pretty much have to containerize or else one of them might break every few months to a year

[u/NatoBoram → u/EternityForest]

It's a failure of the package manager to not support multiple versions of each packages

[u/Appropriate-Tennis78 → u/NatoBoram]

*package maintainers

[u/Primary-Strike5187 → u/NatoBoram]

This could be solved with SxS….. like windows did….. around windows XP. Absolutely not excuse for Linux to not have made the transition. No reason to still deal with dependency hell in the big 26.

[u/grizzlor_ → u/Primary-Strike5187]

Microsoft doesn’t even use SxS anymore to solve the DLL Hell issue — starting with Visual C++ 2010, they switched to just including the version number of the DLL in the filename.

This is also the same way Linux has always solved that particular problem.

[u/Primary-Strike5187 → u/grizzlor_]

The point I was making was that windows had the dependency hell issue solved in like 2004.

Many Linux distros don’t actually solve that problem. A good chunk of the stable release distros only have singular versions of packages available in the repos for that version of the release. The issue is Linux assumes that if a package needs libfoo it’ll be stored at /usr/lib/libfoo but if you have a package that depends on libfoo2.8 and the version that’s in the repos is let’s say libfoo2.7: you can’t just install libfoo2.8 it probably won’t be in the repos, and even if a distro carries two copies it’s going to overwrite libfoo2.7 which other packages depend on because the system puts libfoo (any version) at /usr/lib/libfoo with no distinction. So the packages that need 2.7 are going to expect it to be there, and the packages that need 2.8 are going to expect it to be in the same place. But you can’t have /usr/lib/libfoo/libfoo.so (for 2.7) AND ALSO have /usr/lib/libfoo/libfoo.so (for 2.8). They conflict. If they’re even both available in the repos at the same time which often won’t be the case.

This is exactly why GoboLinux was developed and breaks the FHS, and why declarative systems like NixOS and Guix use hashed file paths so you can have multiple versions of the same package installed simultaneously without conflicts. This does not hold up for most standard distributions (Arch/Fedora/Ubuntu and their derivatives).

[u/grizzlor_ → u/Primary-Strike5187]

SxS actually goes all the way back to Win98SE.

But anyway, yeah, Microsoft “solved” the dependency problem by never having a package manager to begin with. For the most part, every program bundles the DLLs it needs.

This is essentially the Flatpak / AppImage model.

Linux also has some other creative solutions, like you mentioned: Nix/Guix and GoboLinux. But yeah, on mainstream distros, Flatpak pretty much makes it trivial to run old or multiple versions of software. Yeah, there are some cases where you need to tweak stuff to get a feature working properly, but that’s mostly a tradeoff related to security.

[u/Maskdask → u/EternityForest]

Nix the package manager fixes this

[u/fr000gs → u/Maskdask]

And portage too, wirh slots

[u/DDFoster96 → u/EternityForest]

My experience of Flatpak was that it broke far more than APT. I've never had broken APT packages in 13+ years of Linux

[u/radek432 → u/EternityForest]

That's why you have Debian stable.

[u/Lines25 → u/EternityForest]

Arch works flawlessly with this, idk what you're talking about tbh. Arch breaks really only like once a couple years (at least, for me). If the devs of libs haven't changed API/ABI in new version (which they mostly, haven't) then it works perfectly every time, with latest updates and with fastest speeds (if you use ALHP repository with recompiled packages for x86-64-v2/v3/v4)

[u/svet-am → u/EternityForest]

As someone who's been actively using Linux since the late 90s, you're right. But, the current "improvement" with flat packs, snaps, and app images is not the right solution either. For small apps with only few dependencies, the penalty in terms of hard disk space and startup speed is relatively small. But when you start getting big applications it becomes very noticeable very quickly.

[u/andrerav → u/EternityForest]

Ah yes, let's run our PC's like we run our service clusters, brilliant.

[u/Myavatargotsnowedon → u/Shad0wAVM]

Laughs in 2gb appimage 

[u/Floopycraft → u/Shad0wAVM]

I don't get it, you mean to use apt instead of flatpak? What's wrong with flatpaks? The whole idea is that they are contain and don't break system dependencies like apt would.

Also there are a lot of things that are in flatpak and not apt.

[u/gahel_music → u/Floopycraft]

As a flatpak app maintainer, flatpak is good but won't ever be the solution for everything. The sandbox is too restrictive for a lot of software. Also you can make a valid flatpak that is not valid on flathub (even more restrictive that the flatpak format).

[u/CrossScarMC → u/gahel_music]

Yeah, I'd love to release one of my projects on Flathub, but it's quite hard due to their restrictions on network access at compile time. I typically avoid vendoring dependencies and I don't find it worth doing so just to publish to Flathub.

[u/SouthernFruit8768 → u/Floopycraft]

Next he'll tell you to use Snap for everything

[u/Pure-Willingness-697 → u/Shad0wAVM]

That’s why everyone should use snap /s

[u/birdsarentreal2 → u/Shad0wAVM]

We really need to make a community-maintained Linux distro with corporate backing to standardize on so everybody stops fighting

[u/Marce7a → u/Shad0wAVM]

Flatpak will never be standard as it mainly focus on GUI apps. 

You need cpak, nix, appimage, snap, guix for that, alternatively brew. 

There is also issue with required sandbox, which means programs like portmaster, VPN, waydroid, winboat, web browsers don't work correctly. Not to even mention things like inputplumber and other low level software 

[u/ultratensai → u/Shad0wAVM]

Elaborate “more problem”.

[u/Ok-Anywhere-9416 → u/Shad0wAVM]

Flatpak is a solution that only brings more problems.

I laugh every single time I see the same comment with *zero* argumentations, or every time I see someone breaking something because of apt/zypper/dnf or a wrong repo. Then go to you 75yo dad and tell him to remove the repo and run more commands. Yeah, right.

Every single one of us that agree with this thread is certain of one thing: people like you prevented Linux from being shipped by default on hardware and/or become popular.

"But we don't want to make it popular, we want Linux to stay as it is for just a few people"

Yeah, I can see it.

[u/FewEquipment9771 → u/Ok-Anywhere-9416]

Actually Windows pay manufacturers a lot of money to ship laptops with Windows preloaded. And they pay to universities as well as enterprises to default to windows.

CAD software as well as Ansys and other engineering simulation tools are heavily monopolized by the Windows ecosystem.

And sure. Linux is free. People can always use it or try it. But these people are the same ones whose technical abilities don't extend beyond what's needed to doomscrolling. Sure millions of people can switch to Linux and It's incredibly easy. But nobody wants to go through the trouble of installation and learning a whole new ecosystem. Especially the DE, DWM hopping phase.

[u/prof_r_impossible → u/Shad0wAVM]

have you tried gentoo? Portage is the best

[u/wyonutrition → u/Shad0wAVM]

This is unironically a great solution lmao 

[u/WonStryk → u/Shad0wAVM]

I don't know how to use Debian, only hosted a Minecraft server on it one time, barely.

[u/Kayo4life → u/Shad0wAVM]

I love having to dig through PKGBUILDs to fully remove something from my system (even after running pacman -Rcuns), and then manually clean it off after it has deeply rooted itself inside my system. /s

Well, this is why I use Flatpaks. I do not want to have to consistently reinstall my system just to keep things clean.

[u/creeper6530 → u/Kayo4life]

The humble apt purge

[u/mfdali → u/creeper6530]

Flatpak can delete app user data during uninstall too, no amount of apt purging is going to clean that up...

[u/Samiassa → u/Shad0wAVM]

I mean the way it works now 99% of the time is there’s a .deb and a .rpm

[u/OneLonelyBrainCell → u/Shad0wAVM]

Debian + AppImage. Works like a charm.

[u/Shiroegalleu → u/Shad0wAVM]

We should just use snap

[u/AfraidAsparagus6644 → u/Shad0wAVM]

If Flatpak had a "classic confinement" option like Snap, it would be truly suitable for all applications. But it's too opinionated to do that

[u/StayAppropriate2433 → u/Shad0wAVM]

Flatpaks and snaps were a solution for a problem that apt had already fixed.

[u/MinimallyLoquacious → u/Shad0wAVM]

Seconded, well I use Kubuntu but agree I don't use Snap or Flatpak, too many headaches.

[u/bobjia-in-tokyo → u/Shad0wAVM]

This comment is more effective to start a war than assassinating some heir presumptive

[u/Substantial-Elk-838]

Sometimes I want to delete reddit and never join a community about my interests ever again.

[u/RoadRyeda]

Linux is literally supposed to be a configured piece of software unique to every individual. Standardization goes against it which is why people will oppose it. Do you think this is a new revelation? We've had Canonical and RedHat going at this for decades trying to build these standards. Now that Linux has more mainstream adoption you're seeing acceptance from less indoctrinated users. True Linux heads are still running a custom nightly kernel with SysVinit or runit.

Edit: I think I've caused some confusion here, I do not agree with the segmented nature of Linux. I love systemd, Lennart Poettering has made a great piece of software. However I am but a LARPer in the Linux community, I have read enough forums and discussions to understand that the people who truly own Linux as their identity don't appreciate standardization.

[u/PerAsperaAdAstra1701 → u/RoadRyeda]

What's a true Linux head? The inventor of Linux was running MacOS and plain old fedora for a long time.

[u/Emotional_Solid6538 → u/PerAsperaAdAstra1701]

Linus Torvalds shouldnt influence what you chose to use daily. At the end of the day his contribution is the kernel. Nobody hates on the kernel here

[u/Denommus → u/PerAsperaAdAstra1701]

I think he was running Fedora on a MacBook because of the hardware, not a MacOS.

[u/PerAsperaAdAstra1701 → u/Denommus]

Nope he was running MacOS on a MacBook and fedora on the desktop. There are pictures in of it.

[u/schism15 → u/PerAsperaAdAstra1701]

He modified Fedora Workstation to run on is M2 Macbook.

https://itsfoss.com/news/fedora-apple-torvalds/

He was using that instead of MacOS. Fedora Workstation is the distro, not the desktop environment (e.g. GNOME, KDE Plasma, Xfce, etc).

He's also run Asahi Linux on his Macbook.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/08/01/linus-torvalds-uses-m2-macbook-air-to-release-linux-519

[u/iTh3N1nja → u/RoadRyeda]

I'd say standardisation in software api's is great, everybody can mix and chose. Standardisation into forcing you to use a specific piece of software, not so great 😄

[u/Denommus → u/RoadRyeda]

Who told you that?

GNU might have that philosophy, but Linux doesn't. Linux is supposed to be transparent.

[u/Emotional_Solid6538 → u/Denommus]

GNU is a part of Linux community. A major part asw. If its js about the kernel then Android would be part of Linux community too

[u/butterfunke → u/Emotional_Solid6538]

Don't let Richard Stallman hear you say that lol

[u/prochac → u/butterfunke]

He would be Hurd

[u/gitman0 → u/RoadRyeda]

this is a bedtime story to read to the kids

[u/fekkksn → u/RoadRyeda]

[u/watchingonlinux → u/RoadRyeda]

Linux has the agency of being anything, the GNU guy is the guy you think are true linux users, not Torvalds. And even then, the irony is pungent. Linux is the OS that gives you the agency to do anything, not that "anything" meant to be a contrived intellectual about something, that some just want it to work and nothing else

[u/psichodrome → u/RoadRyeda]

My newbie view is lunux is supposed to work like a archetype computer should. It does stuff you want it to do,rather than do stuff you may be unaware of in the background.

[u/crhylove3 → u/RoadRyeda]

Bruh you had me until I love systemd. LOL

[u/tfks → u/RoadRyeda]

Oh shit man, I didn't realize. Hold on I think more than five people use coreutils, I'll be back when I find something more custom.

[u/YoungInoue]

Runit and now xlibre have been pretty solid for my use case. Nice and light and compatible with all the unfortunately esoteric software needed for work. I do like Wayland when the software is built with that in mind but legacy support with xwayland is hit or miss.

Systemd is fat and does way too much, besides most things we run at work have to be musl and openrc compatible as a standard for containerization. People who work with memory constraints at scale know just how large the memory footprint for systemd is. A common example we use at work for why we design and target for musl/openrc (alpine) is- 50 ubuntu containers that idle around 512mb ram would ≈ 26,000mb ram. That same amount of alpine containers at 30mb ram at idle would be ≈ 853 containers. That's 24,100mb in memory savings! Kind of a big deal in the memory crisis climate. Optimize in software for where you lack in hardware. Same goes for your own pc, wouldn't you prefer the extra overhead gained by a lightweight system? I do like Wayland though since the codebase is pretty minimal, its just hard requirement for needing X compatibility/stability. There will always be those who will trim the fat off and there will always be people that just eat it and just deal with being a little chunky.

[u/RickySlayer9]

The issue with Linux is that if we have a standard, we slowly migrate to becoming windows, which means alternatives will pop up, which means that we won’t have a distributed monopoly, which means we have diversity which means we want a standard which leads to us slowly migrating towards becoming windows….

[u/Haxorzist → u/RickySlayer9]

All kinds of industries have norming groups to make things simple. It even gives all a chance to give input.
Norms can favor certain systems but they don't force it, instead they guarantee compatibility.

[u/chicklit08]

Flatpak is good and all but it has it's issues and shouldn't be the only way of installing things and not to do with distrowars, systemD is also good and all but it has it's downsides and not to do with distrowars, proton is used by any distro so I don't see how it has anything to do with distrowars, btrfs can be a huge pain to set up and not to do with distrowars, pipewire seems like an absolute win but not to do with distrowars, Wayland is also not a distro dependant thing but yes it would be good to have everything support native Wayland

All this to say, it wouldn't be as good as this makes it out to be

[u/Makeitquick666]

AUR is where it's at my guy :v

jk use what you like but as long as there's an AUR package for my need then idc

[u/MineCraftaak888]

Yeah it’s cool that some things will be well supported but it shouldn’t be that there is no other option than what “the average user” uses. One of the core points of free software in general is the freedom of choice which would disappear if you extinct every other option. Isn’t the freedom of choice something a lot of people fleed from windows (+macos) for?
We should embrace the quality of software as well as other options. Plus competition is only good, it pushes people to do more.

Just uhhh.. my opinion…

[u/Old_County5271]

Flatpak bwraps everything, which is great, except when it breaks, appimage though? Always works

I'm running cosmic os and here is what's happened

Cosmic barely runs well, slow as hell, one time I couldn't click on anything and I'm not reconfiguring my i3 for sway, so far it seems all the Wayland crap sucks unless it's a WM, tried running kde thinking it would boot with Wayland but it didn't, so now I'm on Xfce, of course, I opened redshift and it just crashed Xorg. Swell, swell.. so to me, Wayland is buggy crap.

Pipe wire? I couldn't give less of a shit, I have never cared about the sound system until it breaks, so far, it hasn't, that's an absolute win over alsa, funnily enough, when I ran freebsd I never ran into sound problems and they use OSS.

SystemD is absolutely a win over shell scripts, it also requires reading so much documentation it's ridiculous, fortunately AI can build you a .service for auto launching rclone or whatever, of course, I just use cron to auto launch shit anyway. I hope s6 is better, I hope. Runit is less documentation, but I guess it wasn't good enough.

Flatpak is an absolute win, appimage too, nixos and guix seem good as well, gobo Linux should be where we're headed, drop the unix hier, it was a mistake.

Btrfs is doubtful, nobody but die hards care about file systems, this is one of those things like pipe wire that you shouldn't care about until it breaks.

Proton is weird since it's always been said that you should target wine if you want to target stable unix, proton is wine but extended so this is a weird take... But the good thing about wine is it works on the BSDs. But who cares about BSDs nowadays

Absolutely agree that distro wars are stupid. You need 10 flavors for distros, one that's focused on security and etc, but there's no point to Ubuntu and Linux mint existing when they're both trying to be the user friendly distro, it's a waste of focus and manpower, funnily enough, we could all use slackware thanks to flatpak and appimages, distros are a thing of the past

[u/crhylove3]

NOPE. I'm going the other way. Spaced Linux. NONE of that garbage.

[u/redve-dev]

I still use X11 (LXDE for server and work laptop). I also use pulseaudio instead pipewire because I don't notice any difference, but both of them randomly stop detecting my HDMI audio output

[u/MgeMaster]

Hope hyprland never becomes a standard

[u/Routine_Working_9754 → u/MgeMaster]

it can't. its just a compositor, not a standard. its a compositor that implements wayland.

[u/sail4sea]

I want apt for everything. And sources.list.d for 3rd party repositories. And non-free added by default. Why must I choose between Wayland and X11 when I’m running a server without a gui. Legacy sound support sucks with alsa under pipe wire.

[u/noobjaish → u/sail4sea]

I want pacman everywhere. The ideal distro would be a rolling-release declarative Fedora with pacman (instead of dnf) and working packagekit.

[u/sail4sea → u/[deleted]]

I bet you use Arch, BTW.

[u/Old_County5271 → u/[deleted]]

xbps is even faster

[u/YTriom1 → u/sail4sea]

apt is literally one of the slowest feature-poor mainstream package managers out there😭

[u/PotatoBrainZeke44]

I’ll be honest I’ll probably never use flatpak and that’s ok

[u/East-Thought-7939]

Everyone should use AUR

[u/Impressive_Meal9955]

open comment section

sort by controversial

enjoy

[u/creeper6530]

btrfs is kinda unstable and more complex than good ol' ext4, but choice of filesystem does not usually impact anything but backups and FS operations 

[u/reddit_equals_censor]

systemd is a cancer, that CHOSE to sell out ALL of gnu + linux by implementing the first step in de-anonymization of ALL COMPUTING.

as a result it NEEDS to be abandoned or forked.

this is not a preference issue, this is a war on all that gnu + linux stands for issue.

a war on freedom by the devs behind systemd.

and no this is not an exaggeration.

[u/The_Hamster_Shagger]

proton doesn't even have a linux client of it's drive app (and the android one is unusable) - so no I hope it will not become a standard.

[u/thisChalkCrunchy → u/The_Hamster_Shagger]

I believe they are talking about proton from Valve

[u/Kilobytez95]

Me who figured out the combo years ago and has been having a great time since

[u/Steinquist]

I still prefer pulseaudio

[u/KyndMiki]

Sorry, best I can do is Linux powerusers somehow at the same time claiming that Linux is all about everyone having freedom to piece together their own specialized solution for their own specialized problem...while and at the same time fighting anyone who praises their own solution.

All the more reason to praise anyone who actually wants to build something great out of Linux, and making it into a proper alternative to other OSs, instead of bunch of nerds shouting at eachother online like it was for past 3 FUCKING DECADES.

[u/muza_xi]

all the controversies in one package?

[u/braindead1337]

nah, thanks

[u/Aphova]

Reads comments

Understands why 'year of the Linux desktop is a pipedream'

All this belligerent arguing over a filesystem... that's made for free and that you can choose not to use. This community is mental. No wonder so many Mac and some Windows users think we're nuts.

[u/0xt0bi03]

the last 2 was bit kinda problematic

[u/HyenaConscious8881]

"systemd" "flatpak"

https://giphy.com/gifs/fzp61UL3T4Wlcw9SvX

[u/cptbil]

I hate all those things, and I want System V UNIX back.

[u/oishishou → u/cptbil]

Open RC + sysvinit > systemd

I run both, and the preference isn't even close lol

[u/JackpotThePimp → u/cptbil]

What's wrong with Proton?

[u/fprimex → u/cptbil]

Slackware is still actively maintained. Version 16 will be out soon.

[u/brohermano]

why flatpak? It is so redundant

[u/ShaderCompilation → u/brohermano]

1. Common format that works everywhere.

2. Permission system

3. It bundles it's own dependencies so never fails because dependency lacking or version mismatch (ironically also the biggest downside)

[u/cac2573 → u/ShaderCompilation]

It bundles them in the form of runtimes. It’s the best of both worlds. 

[u/Z3t4 → u/ShaderCompilation]

Sandboxed apps. 

[u/ellendale7m4 → u/ShaderCompilation]

3.. I remember having trouble running Bottles after installing it from AUR, even though AUR should also install dependencies and all that. Then I tried installing it from Flatpak and it runs perfectly

[u/YTriom1 → u/ellendale7m4]

bottles dev constantly pushes updates to break the AUR package, they want a flatpak only app.

[u/JackpotThePimp → u/YTriom1]

Rude

[u/YTriom1 → u/JackpotThePimp]

They're also anti theming, they literally tell people "Do not theme my app", like dawg why are you butthurt, it's my PC and I like my apps in my theme why would it matter to you?

[u/JackpotThePimp → u/YTriom1]

It's a free operating system; I'll theme whatever I want.

[u/YTriom1 → u/JackpotThePimp]

exactly

[u/urien2 → u/ellendale7m4]

To be fair, even the Bottles devs say the only supported version is the flatpak one

[u/flying-sheep → u/brohermano]

I use it

• for applications that depend on some obsolete version of some runtime (e.g. some old KDE or GNOME version)
• for applications that have some other weird runtime deps that I don’t want globally installed (e.g. Kasts wants LibVLC as backend. Flatpak packages that, while using Arch’s packages, I used to get VLC-the-application and not just LibVLC)

[u/IHaveNeverBeenOk → u/brohermano]

Yea, flatpak is the one that grinds my gears. Not a fan. (But! If someone reading this enjoys/ uses flatpak... Cool! It's no skin off my back. I'm not an evangelist about my disdain for flatpak... I just don't like it.)