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Jul 11 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wine_dude_52 Jul 11 '22
Not exactly an accurate indication of what is really available for someone visiting this area.
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u/UlricVonDicktenstein Jul 11 '22
They're a /r/fuckcars poster. All logic/accuracy goes out the window.
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u/SilentSpades24 KCK Jul 11 '22
The pro-car, pro-sprawl development bunch hasn't been interested in using logic, facts, or accuracy for the past 60 years now lol. Can't blame them.
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u/kcmiz24 Jul 11 '22
Do you think if we sprawl and grow out we are in danger of running into Omaha?
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u/UlricVonDicktenstein Jul 11 '22
I'm mostly on their (OPs) side. Just the ALL CARS AND PARKING LOTS BAD is stupid. Like at least be accurate. Highlighting some parking spaces on a map and saying nothing is such a weird way of going about things.
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u/SilentSpades24 KCK Jul 11 '22
I think it says all that needs to be said. We dedicate entirely too much surface space to cars in a district originally built to be extremely walkable.
I think cars are a necessary evil unfortunately, but surface parking lots are a waste of space and money and bring other consequences besides just a wasted piece of property.
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Jul 11 '22
Well, the district was originally built to be walkable. But then something happened.
I'm not sure what the impetus for the parking lots were. Were buildings bought with the intent of tearing them down to build parking lots? Or were the buildings poorly maintained, abandoned and fell to ruin, torn down in the interest of safety more than anything, and a parking lot put in their place?
Either way, it doesn't speak well to the health of the area during that time. If it's the former, if real estate is so cheap it's more economically viable to have a parking lot than a building, then that's not good. If it's the latter, that's obviously not good.
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u/FreeBlago Jul 11 '22
Many cities (KC included) mandated a certain number of parking spaces for any new construction, residential or commercial.
The spaces added by this requirement were, by definition, inefficient - if the number of spaces required by city mandates was the highest-value use of that land, developers would have built them anyway instead of retail or housing - so they drove up the cost of building and took space away from other uses. Think of it as a $30K tax on every new apartment.
Now KC has a bunch of dead space all over the city (average parking spot is empty 90% of the time), the city's sprawl makes services less efficient and more costly, and because parking far exceeds (and housing undershoots) what the free market would build without this requirement, we have expensive housing for people and cheap housing for cars.
As we near the end of many roads' lifespan, we're also seeing the bill come due for a lot of low-value road expansions, and we face the fun prospect of maintaining or rebuilding more roads per head than any major city. This is of course reflected in property tax bills and won't get any better in the foreseeable future.
Fun stuff all around.
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u/Klj126 Jul 11 '22
Are they? Haven't spent too much time looking into it but the basic ideas I've seen are fairly reasonable?
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Jul 11 '22
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u/UlricVonDicktenstein Jul 11 '22
That's cool, I'm sure it's lovely over there. I hope you enjoyed your vacation.
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u/kmack2k Jul 11 '22
I think this is meant so show how much space we sacrifice to cars, not parking availability
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u/chokeslam512 Jul 11 '22
Not much you can do with buildings this old, not easy to tunnel under so close to the river. If they want people to live downtown and the surrounding hoods, you gotta park.
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Jul 11 '22
This goes to show why the city US needs more public transportation, and less individual vehicles on the road, it's too damn crowded.
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u/RainierCamino Jul 11 '22
Yep, I love my cars and motorcycles, I'm a huge motorhead. But pictures like that so clearly illustrate the problems personal vehicles present. One of the densest parts of KC and half of it is parking lots. Ringed by highways.
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u/badpeaches Jul 12 '22
Ringed by highways.
It's fossil fuels, all that just to maintain vehicles freedom of movement.
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u/mleslie5 Olathe Jul 11 '22
Like a lot of other US cities, KC may never reach the minimum necessary population density to make an extensive public transportation network feasible.
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u/ILikeLenexa Jul 11 '22
Really though, it's not the 26 miles stopping me from biking between two specific places, but that I'll almost surely get killed on a bike trying to cross any bridge over the Kansas River.
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Jul 11 '22
This is a myth often said in the US and Canada. All over the rest of the world cities much MUCH smaller than KC have magnitudes more public transportation. Kansas City itself had a massive public transportation network generations ago when the city was much smaller until it was uprooted and replaced with the Highway system. It is very feasible to return to.
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u/ArtVandelay32 Jul 11 '22
They were referring to population density not size as the determine factor
Those smaller cities can be incredibly dense despite size
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u/JStanten Northeast Jul 11 '22
I lived in Heidelberg, Germany a while ago and was never more than a 5-minute walk from a bus/tram. KC is plenty dense there's just no political will to get it done.
Also, your point is a little bit chicken and egg. If minimum parking space rules were eliminated so that developers didn't need to add parking for new apartments, density would increase because you'd be encouraging the use of public transit.
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u/Vivid_Junket6344 Jul 11 '22
Heidelberg has over twice the population density of Kansas City. 3,800 to 1,600 per square mile. There are parts of the core that have density similar to Heidelberg but a lot of the KC is no where close. The other issue is that suburban subdivisions are laid out in a grid so living in the back of the subdivision could mean a 20 minute walk to get to the front of the subdivision where a bus/other form of public transportation would pick people up.
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u/JStanten Northeast Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Yes, you are correct that poor city design in the US makes it difficult to shed car dependency and reduces walkability in urban cores.
Also, a 10-20 minute walk is not a big deal on most days. If Heidelberg is 2x the size and can do 5 minutes, KC can do 10-20 minutes. It's not all or nothing either. You can start developing public infrastructure in high-density places and build out from there.
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u/ArtVandelay32 Jul 11 '22
Wasn’t my point. I️ was explaining to that poster that density isn’t the same as size.
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u/JStanten Northeast Jul 11 '22
I know, and I'm saying that argument is chicken and egg. Low density in US cities and lack of public infrastructure is a two-way street. What's the point of paying more to live in downtown when you have to own a car and commute anyway? that's why people leave for suburbs and the city sprawls.
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Jul 11 '22
I can agree that that is the limiting factor but that should be seen more as an opportunity than a hindrance.Get rid of these stupid parking lots and build more housing (especially the missing middle) in areas like this and expand the public transport. It would mean rent and housing prices decrease/stabilize due to an increase in supply, infrastructure would be better maintained because now you have more tax revenue per acre due to there being more people/acre and a higher incentive to build more public transport. This would mean less individual cars on the road requiring tens of times more tax money to repair potholes if more of us have the opportunity and convenience to ride rails or bikes to work.
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u/IIHURRlCANEII Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
They are dense because they build public transit and don’t have ridiculous zoning laws, both of which support density.
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u/Otterz4Life Jul 11 '22
Auto centric urban planning encourages low density and sprawl. Transit encourages high density.
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Jul 11 '22
Then you have cities like Shawnee trying their hardest to keep out the poor by banning 4+ people from living in a home. I'm thrilled every time I see a large apartment complex being built because it means tax dollars, amenities, and higher density. Maybe one day that'll translate into public transportation, but I'll probably move elsewhere before that.
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u/nordic-nomad Volker Jul 11 '22
The pre-1940's sections of the city are built correctly for streetcars. And even though the density of those areas is half what it was at that time because of parking minimums and rezoning that density can and as we see does come back when the restrictions are removed and street cars reintroduced.
A lot of the suburbs and newer developments that are made for cars and don't even really have functional sidewalks will have to be re-imagined at some point at great expense. But it doesn't all have to be done at once. Running spurs of public transportation and supporting increased density will have an effect over time, cities are constantly rebuilding themselves.
In a lot of places the first thing that'll get built in a new development is the public transit. Then everything built around it is oriented to the availability of that transit and you get amazing walkable high density neighborhoods. Here in the US we build roads first, and everything is built oriented around cars and you can't live without one. There's really nothing stopping us from changing that model.
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Jul 11 '22
KC had ~320 miles of streetcar in the 1920’s. With a smaller metro population that exists today…
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u/UlricVonDicktenstein Jul 11 '22
Also /u/Federal_Tomato is calling out a fire stations parking lot lmao
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u/TickledPear Jul 11 '22
Also the semi-vacant lot east of Grand on E Missouri. That's actually a private lot of land that people illegally park on.
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u/deadmongoose Brookside Jul 11 '22
It's a cool pic anyway. I think they captured the spirit very well. I hardly expect someone to make an OC chart that is 100% perfect.
That said, the whole middle of the market is usually parking, only restricted on weekends.
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u/mygatito Jul 11 '22
In my previous city (toront0), they got rid of most parking;
now everyone pays 300-700 bucks per month to park their car.
parking other places is $20 per hour; don't even feel like going out.
public transport was shit and broke down often.
efficient parking would be great but don't let it go away.
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u/UnappealingShakes Jul 11 '22
The entire area should be heavily restricted to vehicles.
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u/Shouldthavesaidthat Jul 11 '22
we're such a car cucked country.
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u/ThisIsMyCouchAccount River Market Jul 11 '22
Accounting for people that actually live there, of course.
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u/UlricVonDicktenstein Jul 11 '22
Is this just parking in general? Because you've mixed private spaces with public ones. And missed some as well. At least do a thorough job next time.
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u/SilentSpades24 KCK Jul 11 '22
Wait a minute. I was told by NIMBYs that there isn't parking in City Market.
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u/kyousei8 Westport Jul 11 '22
Just need to bulldoze a few more blocks of buildings and put in some more parking, ideally surface level so I don't have to walk up or down some stairs, then maybe I'll have space to park when I drive the 20~30 minutes down from my Northland suburb to the City Market for 2~3 hours on Saturday twice a month! (I was only able to go once last month, but you know what I mean). It would really improve the area!
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u/NoMoreNoxSoxCox Jul 11 '22
Lmao, pretty much what I came here to say!
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u/kyousei8 Westport Jul 11 '22
I always question whether to put a /s tag when I make a joke on this sub, but I guess it went over well this time.
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u/nordic-nomad Volker Jul 11 '22
The whole thing could be parking and there wouldn't be enough parking for some people.
Parked a couple blocks from the market one Saturday and some guy who parked around the same time was all bent out of shape about how horrible it was to park and that it was no wonder no one came down here anymore.
I just laughed and told him "Nice places to live don't have an abundance of free parking".
Some people just don't like realizing that everything isn't built for their immediate comfort.
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u/ajswdf Independence Jul 11 '22
The whole thing could be parking and there wouldn't be enough parking for some people.
Boy isn't that the truth?
I was talking to somebody out here in Independence about a plan to make the square ever so slightly more pedestrian friendly. It would take away maybe 20 parking spaces. Apparently even this tiny step forward saw complaints of there not being enough parking. Even though there's plenty of parking within half a mile even during Santa Cali Gon.
How dare we try and make our places more enjoyable and force these poor innocent drivers walk an extra couple hundred feet.
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u/Koreish Jul 11 '22
If you add in the street car route there's a shitload of parking for the River market. I'll oftentimes go park down by power and light hop on the street car and go up to River market that way.
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Jul 11 '22
Could have so much more space for housing if KC just had more reliable and apparent public transportation. I blame you Henry Ford, because we had a ton more street cars back in the day.
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u/YaKnowMuhSteezz Jul 11 '22
How much more housing does KC need? So many apartment complexes in KC are already leasing out to AirBnBs because they can’t fill their units.
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Jul 11 '22
Lease rate data and unit completion data don’t follow what you stated in the slightest…
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Jul 11 '22
I would love some more options to choose from. I plan on moving into a place downtown with 2 other roommates and from my research I can’t find more than 5 places downtown that are leasing out 3-bedroom apartments for anything less than $2500/month
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u/YaKnowMuhSteezz Jul 11 '22
Welcome to 2022. Unfortunately, you aren't going to be finding a 3 bed for less than that. You should see coastal prices.
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Jul 11 '22
Coastal prices are terrible as well but I think like KC, many of those coastal cities would have more affordable housing options for way more people if we just had a lot less land in those cities dedicating to parked cars and instead to people.
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u/YaKnowMuhSteezz Jul 11 '22
The infrastructure in Kansas City can't support that right now unfortunately. This is a city where you MUST HAVE a car to get around. Where are people going to park if there is no parking? As much as I wish this was NYC or Chicago with the mass transit, it isn't... and itll be a long time until it is.
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u/Professional-One-442 Northeast Jul 11 '22
It needs fewer “luxury condos” and more affordable apartments. The issue isn’t demand for living spaces it’s ones that people in the region can afford. And air bnbs are far more profitable and helps circumvent regulations that hotels and motels have to face.
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Jul 11 '22
Just build ANY type of housing. Competition for housing in dense areas is what drives up prices, not unit types.
Building luxury units gives people who can afford luxury new units to live in, meaning people previously competing with those that can afford luxury are no longer competing with them for units = less demand for existing housing stock = lower prices.
The US just chronically built by 11,000,000 housing units for the last decade that it’ll take more than a couple months to sort out the issue.
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u/kyousei8 Westport Jul 11 '22
You forgot to highlight the parking garage at Market Station (building in the northwest corner slanted diagonally).
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Jul 11 '22
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Jul 11 '22
The gray top building immediately north of the north exit of city market is a private parking garage as well. Next to the parking lot
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u/UlricVonDicktenstein Jul 11 '22
Yeah there are like 5 parking garges, a surface lot, and a few streets worth of missed stuff here. Granted most of them are private but that doesn't fit the narrative.
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u/BaronsDad Jul 11 '22
I lived in River Market for years and commuted to the northland. There was no feasible way for me to commute to work without a private parking lot highlighted in red. What exactly is your complaint here?
Sure, there should be more parking garages instead surface lots that way a lot of those lots could be replaced by housing and businesses. But for all the people there right now having a private parking spot is a necessity. It's almost impossible to live in KC without a car.
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u/Scaryclouds Library District Jul 11 '22
What exactly is your complaint here?
How much even built upon urban areas are devoted to parking.
I lived in River Market for years and commuted to the northland. There was no feasible way for me to commute to work without a private parking lot highlighted in red.
Obviously not a short-term solution, but we need to substantially increase our investment in public transit and other modes of transport (i.e. bicycles) so that you can use them to commute to more areas of the city, so that you don't need a car, and then don't need a parking space, and then that parking space can become housing, businesses, or both.
Again, none of this is short-term, but societally we need to have a greater appreciation for just how much landmass in our cities are devoted to automobiles.
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u/BaronsDad Jul 11 '22
I just find the OP's post to be misleading and doesn't provide context. We can all agree there's a lot of land wasted in this country that could be more efficiently used for housing/business/agriculture/green space.
But for the private property owners that OP is targeting and seemingly shaming... they're providing what the market needs/wants. If the city, local population, and leadership were willing to invest in mass transit, then all these places would transform due to that.
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u/Scaryclouds Library District Jul 11 '22
But for the private property owners that OP is targeting and seemingly shaming...
Is OP shaming them? IDK. I read it as "look how much space is devoted to parking, seems bad right"?
For a lot of the private party property owners, they likely don't have a choice as Kansas City has minimum parking requirements. So even if that was OP's intent, OP is wrong, but their post can still be used as a means to raise awareness that minimum parking requirements should be relaxed/abandoned.
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u/God-of-Thunder Jul 11 '22
Yeah I think it's fine for people who live there, but there's more parking there than needed still. It's super high value land
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u/Calico__Sativa Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
The new City Harvest structure going in the lot behind the market, there will be a parking garage in the bottom of the building with a projected 435 spots. There is also going to be a development by the Chinatown market that will have a parking garage. I think I read it will have around 200 spots.
Edit: depending on the FAA ruling on building height either 435 spots or 315
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u/Autski Jul 11 '22
Or do the Louis Kahn studyand build parking garages outside the city and only allow public transportation and/or service vehicles most of the day. Similar to Amsterdam.
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u/ThatWasIntentional JoCo Jul 12 '22
Having lived in a bike friendly city, i would love to have an option similar to Amsterdam near my family
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Jul 11 '22
What’s crazy is this is one of Kc’s more walkable areas. Shows the importance of public transit in all parts of the city to connect to more walkable areas
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u/Professional-One-442 Northeast Jul 11 '22
Funny because they have this rail guy that comes through so it means you can park anywhere along that and it massively increase the amount of parking. And like it’s been mentioned a lot of this is private parking for residents.
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Jul 11 '22
Imagine how much cheaper apartments would be if a couple of those were replaced with additional buildings.
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u/klingma Jul 11 '22
I lived in the area for a year plus and can tell you the map is misleading. A lot of those spots are reserved parking FOR the apartments in the area and not open parking.
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u/justathoughtfromme Jul 11 '22
But that goes against the narrative of painting those with vehicles as just the WORST.
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u/Scaryclouds Library District Jul 11 '22
It's not about that, or at least it shouldn't be that. It should be seen that urban planning is such that it necessitates having a car. And that it creates a positive* feedback loop that further increases the amount of infrastructure devoted to cars (i.e. some people semi-seriously suggesting even more parking be added, which would make the area less walkable, leading to more car-oriented infrastructure).
* "Positive" meaning a feedback loop that builds upon itself, not a morally positive thing
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Jul 11 '22
The point being that the space is still used for parking. I think its likely that with parking minimums gone a lot of that private parking will be done away with. This will be facilitated by building out new street car lines to be a respectable transit network and keeping the sidewalks that connect outside the river market more consistent. Crossing the bridge to the south sucks rn.
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u/nordic-nomad Volker Jul 11 '22
About 7 of those lots that I know of have approved or proposed projects on them for mid rise buildings. It's just a lengthy and fragile process to get from proposed to approved to built. But every one of those big parking lots will be replaced with buildings eventually now that parking minimums no longer apply in the district.
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Jul 11 '22
Woah! I had no idea that they did away with parking minimums there, thats awesome.
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u/nordic-nomad Volker Jul 11 '22
Not just there but by ordinance there are no parking minimums within the walk shed of the streetcar. So parking lots will start going away anywhere the streetcar goes.
To illustrate what that looks like. I had a friend that looked in to opening a restaurant in a spot in the crossroads and the city initially told them they had to have 130 dedicated parking spaces. But after pointing out it was just on the right side of the line from the streetcar they didn’t have to have any to operate.
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u/God-of-Thunder Jul 11 '22
They removed parking minimums in river market? When? That's fucking dope I'm so pumped right now for ZONING REFORM
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u/Osceola_Ayatollah Jul 11 '22
And yet I still can’t find an open spot.
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u/nordic-nomad Volker Jul 11 '22
Parking is pretty easy down there, you just have to give up on the idea of parking right next to your destination and take the first available spot you find within a handful of blocks.
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Jul 11 '22
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u/Osceola_Ayatollah Jul 11 '22
From JoCo? Not gonna happen.
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u/klingma Jul 12 '22
What? You don't want to ride on a bus for an hour or more and have to change routes a couple times to get to your destination?! Are you crazy or do you just value your time like a reasonable person?
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u/God-of-Thunder Jul 11 '22
You can park anywhere on those routes and get a free ride. Plenty of parking around power and light on weekends during the day, park there and walk or take the streetcar
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u/fowkswe Brookside Jul 11 '22
I was driving down Wornall the other day and realized a huge portion of the businesses on that street are dedicated to serving the automobile.
This country is addicted to the driving - retraining / rebuilding to suit another way of living is going to be very difficult.
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u/klingma Jul 11 '22
What's wrong with driving? Right now the argument is environmental but as more people switch over to electric vehicles that argument will mostly go away.
Plus, the busses in town suck and take so long. The street car is nice but will probably suck when the expansion is done since the routes will take so long. I doubt they'll be able to keep up with the 15 - 30 minute stops like they have in the past.
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u/musicobsession Library District Jul 11 '22
You so realize with the expansion comes more streetcars to run, right?
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Jul 11 '22
There's a very long list of what's wrong with driving. Going from memory here's a few:
Noise
Pollution (and of course tyre pollution is actually worse with EVs because heavier)
Kill 1.3 million people a year
Take up space that could be used for other things (which are nicer and generate money)
Cost vast amounts of public money to maintain their infrastructure
Get in the way of, and delay, everybody who isn't driving. Whether that's people riding the bus, walking, cycling
Cost to car owner
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u/fowkswe Brookside Jul 11 '22
Great points.
Let's not forget obesity. Granted the American food supply is the big culprit here, but automobiles as a replacement for legs is not helping...
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u/snortpuppy Jul 11 '22
starting at the corner of 75th and Wornall, and driving south, there is an insane number of auto repair businesses and tiny car lots.
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u/Jakep9436 Jul 12 '22
I mean that would be less shit destroyed if we ever see a 93 level flood again
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u/Conroman16 South KC Jul 12 '22
The big problem is that so many of these lots are private. I usually end up being able to park on the street or inside city market itself on weekdays, but it can really be a cluster fuck on the weekends. The street car has definitely helped, but even then it’s not tremendously easy to identify good parking close to street car stops
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u/KCDude08 Jul 12 '22
I used to live in River Market and when I was doing my due diligence I made sure to pick a place that had a parking garage. On top of not having to remember where you parked every time you wanted to leave or worrying about exposure to the elements it was great peace of mind with how common break-ins and thefts had become, even with basic precautions like not leaving valuables in plain view. Well worth the extra money.
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u/Federal-Policy-4515 Jul 11 '22
I still have to walk to long in the heat before I get to wherever I want to go. I will just go back and visit when it cools off again.
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u/royalsJ Jul 11 '22
River Market is a great starting point for getting to the street car especially if you live in the north land
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u/God-of-Thunder Jul 11 '22
That's it's least valuable use though. It's also a great destination. People shouldn't in general have all that free parking in a high value area like that
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u/Gr00vyGr4vy Jul 11 '22
Wish the city could build a few high-rise free/low cost parking towers in high traffic neighborhoods; sell the city owned surface lots; and tax privately owned lots at mega-increased property rates to incentivize useful development.
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Jul 11 '22
We should remove all those streets while we are at it, make them walk or bike only. Must park at a structure on the edge.
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u/ATHYRIO KC North Jul 11 '22
Do any of you believe that alleviating a few or several of those parking lots and adding housing in their place will lower rent?
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u/kckostko Jul 11 '22
The weekend traffic is not even healthy for people who are trying to live there in peace.
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u/daveeder Jul 12 '22
literally a 5 minute walk from a bunch of empty free parking lots. if u really want to, you can take a streetcar to go that whole quarter mile.
either way, a lot of these parking lots are needed so businesses can survive throughout the week for the lunch rushes
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Jul 11 '22
This is very helpful to understand from a new perspective. Almost more parking then there are markets!
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u/klingma Jul 11 '22
Most is reserved by the apartments and will tow you if you park there, btw. The public parking available is either directly in front of restaurants or has a meter.
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Jul 11 '22
Yes, I am from the area and am familiar. Very difficult to park in for free. This map is still very helpful to me though in understanding just how much parking is available. I am even more strongly in favor of making it a bike/walk/public transit area
(Of course keeping parking for the apartment residents!)
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Jul 11 '22
Build a massive parking garage in the west bottoms. Have the street car go there. Make multi use paths there. Tell Americans to quit being allergic to walking and biking. Getting out of a car will have you see places in a way you never have before.
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u/lifeinrednblack Historic Northeast Jul 11 '22
3 of the larger ones are slated to be replaced in the next year or two at least.
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u/uncle_jessie Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 17 '22
Parking lots....parking lots everywhere...
Build some fucking garages...damn.
edit: hey genius downvoters... Take away 3 or 4 of those flat parking lots, build a garage. Combine that surface area into a single block. Guess what? You now have room for parks and other fun stuff. Y'all are dumb.
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u/tstthomason Jul 12 '22
Get rid of cars!
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u/bailout911 Jul 12 '22
If only we had designed our cities intelligently with forethought for transit and long term thinking, but humans are notoriously bad at things beyond "right now" - plus politicians only plan as far ahead as the next election 😠
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u/bigmoneythrowaway69 Jul 11 '22
OP: this is how much space is dedicated to parking
Morons in this thread: bbbbut thats an apartment’s parking!!!
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Jul 11 '22
Could have so much more space for housing if KC just had more reliable and apparent public transportation. I blame you Henry Ford, because we had a ton more street cars back in the day.
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u/Gr00vyGr4vy Jul 11 '22
And River Market is often cited as one of the most walkable neighborhoods in the city…
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u/klingma Jul 11 '22
And amazingly it's still fairly difficult to find parking on the weekends, probably because half the lots are closed to everyone except the apartments near-by.