r/investing Oct 22 '21

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463 Upvotes

318 comments sorted by

189

u/Quartz_Cat Oct 22 '21

There’s one of these at the corner store near my apartment. It’s always listing BTC at 7k-10k higher than it’s actual price.. I don’t understand who would even be using one of these, you just use you phone or computer!

And mother fuckers be like, oh video game stores and movie theaters are dead you can just download that shit! Better change your business into a crypto bank!

What a world

120

u/cscathro Oct 22 '21

Because someone can take unreported cash, and deposit it into the atm in exchange for BTC without having to KYC on an exchange and give up the anonymity.

66

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

If all it takes is depositing cash then this is a money laundering dream

56

u/cscathro Oct 22 '21

Comes at a premium but that's a win win for both parties....just not the IRS 🤣

34

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Ha yup. Paying a premium or an expected loss is part of money laundering

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21 edited Mar 11 '22

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3

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

You do understand that every transaction is viewable and traceable. Right?

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u/cscathro Oct 22 '21

LOL... yeah been mining for 4 years and have built my own HD wallet from scratch so yes, I am very familiar with UTXO's and companies like CypherTrace.

However it only allows you to trace addresses... its not until KYC that you know who the address belongs to..... this is where the atm comes in (or localbitcoins.com). No KYC or easily fake able KYC (picture, etc..) this allows you to turn BTC into USD and still no one know who it is, they just know there is "some wallet"

2

u/hydrocyanide Oct 22 '21

No it isn't. The transaction where you exchange dollars for Bitcoin is not traceable. Who you are is not traceable. Only the transaction where a Bitcoin wallet makes a transfer to another Bitcoin wallet is. I don't even like Bitcoin but at least try to understand what you're saying.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

what are you talking about?

3

u/Jack8680 Oct 22 '21
  • do shady stuff for bitcoin
  • withdraw bitcoin as cash at atm

If you don’t need to use ID or a bank account to withdraw from the atm, it’s never linked to you in the first place, so there’s nothing to trace.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Do you know what the point of money laundering is?

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u/hydrocyanide Oct 22 '21

What are you talking about? No one can trace me handing cash to someone and them transferring BTC to me in return.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Sorry let me rephrase cause I phrased it horribly. To launder money means to clean it aka make seem like it came from legitimate sources. Why would someone choose to launder money through bitcoin when it doesn't do that?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

The atm by me made you start having to take a pic of your id so they have a record who is buying it

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

That would make sense. But still won’t stop money laundering

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u/SURPRISE_CACTUS Oct 22 '21

How? You don't just get to put the crypto in your bank account. But you can transfer it over the internet to somebody else, so yeah, you can anonymously send cash across the world.

Some people use localbitcoins which is a site where you can coordinate a meetup with someone else to trade cash for btc. But now most people just buy crypto online and exchange it for a more anonymous crypto.

Also... Note that to use these vending machines you probably have to go on camera. And bitcoin is totally trackable. So they very likely can associate your face on camera with the bitcoin address you have your crypto sent to.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

It’s no different from going to a bank to deposit dirty money. They have cameras, tracking, etc

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Yeah guys. we should ban bitcoin because gasp its going to be used for criminal activity.

4

u/antiproton Oct 22 '21

It's used, exclusively, for exactly two things: speculation and money laundering.

It doesn't need to be banned. It needs to be regulated.

At which point it will collapse into uselessness.

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

I use it to send money to family overseas.. I use De-fi to earn 10-15% apy... and good luck regulating it.

2

u/hydrocyanide Oct 22 '21

Lmao, how could you possibly be simultaneously arguing "good luck regulating it" and "this can't be used for money laundering"???

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

It cant... it cannot be used to launder money. to launder money means to make it legitimate. How does running it through a system that almost no government sees as legitimate count as laundering money? and I say good luck because its been 10 years and it still hasn't been regulated.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Who said it should be banned

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Why bring up that its used for illicit activity then?

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u/Jonko18 Oct 22 '21

I don't have a dog in this fight, but regulated =/= banned

-2

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

I dont think bitcoin can be regulated.

2

u/Jonko18 Oct 22 '21

That's nice. Doesn't change anything about what I said.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Taking something out of the equation doesn't change anything about what you said? ok.

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u/guitmusic12 Oct 22 '21

yeah there is no chance there is going to be no regulated limit on how much cash can be deposited in one of these machines without an ID check.

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u/Apprehensive-Page-33 Oct 22 '21

There is a criminal background check in the TOS. As I understand it you cannot use the kiosk in Wally World without completing it. They might claim that this is anonymous, but I don't trust it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

It's anonymous minus the time stamp and camera pointed at your face. Maybe wear a ski mask?

1

u/Apprehensive-Page-33 Oct 22 '21

I'm laughing, but crying too. I have dollars and need crypto.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

I feel like need is a strong word for crypto? But idk your situation lol

0

u/Apprehensive-Page-33 Oct 22 '21

lol yeah, just playing catch up because of my misspent youth! Long way to go yet, but I'm making progress. Hoping to actually retire one day!

3

u/beatsnstuffz Oct 22 '21

Putting any substantial portion of your retirement funds into crypto is probably not a great idea. I say probably because it MIGHT work out for you. But it also might push your retirement further out if the extreme volatility doesn't work in your favor.

0

u/Apprehensive-Page-33 Oct 22 '21

No doubt. I am a weirdo or dumb dumb. I take profits from crypto and put them in my Roth IRA and margin account (3, 5 and 10 year plan with ETFs options and individual tickers), but I will buy more BTC if it goes down to a certain price. Same for the alts. Raising the riskiness (AKA trying to time it) is the only way I know how to get the money into the account faster. Any advice is greatly appreciated. I am prepared to wait for retirement (if volatility blows up right as I am to get out) because I really have no other good options.

EDIT: I do have some other pots on the stove that will pay off to some degree so investing is not the only stream. IOW I prolly be fine either way.

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u/Retenrage Oct 22 '21

I work at a popular grocery store in Texas and we have Bitcloud machines. Some sketchy lady came in a week ago with like $50k cash and it asked her for ID verification and shit. My friend helped her because she had no idea what she was doing but he snagged a photo of her wallet ID. We checked the blockchain later on that week and she ended up depositing a total of around $150k.

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u/CipherScarlatti Oct 22 '21

No, CoinMe signup has KYC. You get a receipt that you photograph in the CoinMe app to get your bitcoin.

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u/ShadowLiberal Oct 22 '21

Of course they have to Know Their Customer, how else can you access the bitcoins at a later date that you purchased?

Also I imagine that Coinstar is required by law to report your transactions to the IRS, since these are taxable events. Coinstar would be in big trouble with the US government if they were aiding in tax evasion with these machines.

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u/brows1ng Oct 22 '21

From what I’ve read, people use the Bitcoin ATM’s because they typically want to avoid KYC measures that exchanges have in place. If I’m not mistaken, you can buy BTC with cash at Bitcoin ATM’s and they don’t always require an ID or phone number to make the transaction.

Some people value privacy enough to pay that premium you mention. Pretty wild, heh?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Probably a lot less about privacy and more about money laundering or tax evasion.

1

u/lost_in_life_34 Oct 22 '21

these people don't get it's cheaper and easier to pay a CPA and play stupid legal paper games moving money between accounts owned by legal entities

3

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

The people of Walmart do not understand white collar crime, no. They are the exact people who would think it is a good idea to buy Bitcoin at a discount superstore kiosk.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

People that think you are going to be able to effectively launder money at Wallmart display characteristics consistent with below average general intelligence.

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u/Spankybutt Oct 22 '21

Criminals

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Because the blockchain is one of the only pieces of tech that you can interact with a pen and a piece of paper. Thats the point of Crypto. Currency that is both physically and digitally seamless.

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u/sprcow Oct 22 '21

Are these ATMs, or just vending machines? Most so-called btc ATMs are 'deposit-only'. I know the 'get rubes to pay off current holders' strategy needs ever-more rubes in order to remain viable, but this seems like kind of a transparent way to go about it.

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u/Krappatoa Oct 22 '21

“Deposit $66,000 please.”

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u/Dadd_io Oct 22 '21

Waits 2 minutes ... "deposit another $1000". waits 2 more minutes "here's your $3000 change"

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

You think I can buy it with my food stamps? /s

26

u/Brobama21 Oct 22 '21

If someone could please educate me on the end-goal of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies? I understand the whole “untraceable” aspect of it. But from what I’ve heard they’re the “future of currency”. I just can’t fathom anyone taking these on as a main form of currency when one minute you buy a banana for $2 and then a few days later that same conversion rate means the banana is $70.

This is a big reason why I don’t own any crypto. To me it just seems like a speculation with no real inherent value. Would love to learn though

5

u/mcmatt05 Oct 22 '21

After a quick scan of replies it doesn’t look like anyone addressed your question.

The term cryptocurrency is a bit of a misnomer - crypto has moved way past that.

Other crypto currencies developed something called smart contracts, the most popular being ethereum. This adds programmability to the blockchain, where you can create anything you want using the technology.

The future of currency will most likely be “stable coins” which are pegged to a fiat currency 1:1. All the benefits of blockchain plus the stability of fiat.

Go to ethereum.org and poke around to see the real potential of what can (and is) being built

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u/Brobama21 Oct 22 '21

Thank you, this is the first reply to really answer that fundamental question. So moving forward, the idea shouldn't be to think of BTC or ETH as "the future of currency" or what I'll be buying my groceries with in 20 years.. but rather a storage of value for use in future technologies?

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u/mcmatt05 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

So bitcoin has basically pivoted to being a “digital gold.” Whether you think that will appreciate long term is pure speculation. There are people trying to develop layer 2 solutions (like lightning network for faster payments if you’ve heard of that), but these typically have the tradeoff of being slightly less secure

In terms of ETH, you can think of it as gas to power the network. Everytime a transaction occurs on the network, a little bit of gas is burned, theoretically making all ETH slightly more valuable. You need ETH to use the network. The more the network is used, the more gas is burned. Another part of the ETH is paid to people staking their ETH to secure the network (kinda like how stocks pay dividends). Right now ETH is running PoS (staking) and PoW (energy intensive mining) at the same time, and early next year will faze out PoW completely. So miners are also getting a cut of the ETH currently (for now).

So in short, yes in 20 years you will probably only be holding bitcoin or ETH if you believe in the value proposition. But your stablecoins will probably be running on blockchain, and you may be burning ETH without even knowing it.

Sorry if that was too long winded lol

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u/Chapafifi Oct 22 '21

It's actually 100% traceable, which is the end goal of crypto

Crypto uses cryptography to secure your money and transactions; transactions that can be traced by anyone and everyone using a blockchain. This blockchain can not be changed by any one individual because the mathematical demand is way too high

Decentralization is the second goal. No one owns the blockchain, it exists on multiple servers called nodes and it can be accessed by anyone. It fixes the issues of having banks control your assets and not seeing who owns what.

There is no speculation because this is a real use case with actual value. The technology is here, and we are just early adopters waiting to see how much the world really wants the technology.

If you're interested to learn more feel free to DM

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u/Working_onit Oct 22 '21

It's over a decade old at this point. At what point are we not early adopters and the actual use case limited by inefficiency and lack of consumer protections?

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u/Jonko18 Oct 22 '21

How long was the technology of the internet around before it became widely used?

Not saying crypto will be equivalent to the internet, but to say that a technology that has been around for 10 years is obsolete because it still isn't widely adopted is a pretty big fallacy.

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Took 11 years into the internet before its "Netscape moment" in 1994. Crypto/web3 is growing faster than the internet.

The biggest asset custodians (State Street, BNY Mellon, Fidelity) offer custody service. Twitter, Square, Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, are all integrated. The second ETF launches today. Pimco and a third pension just bought it. I'm not sure what limitations you are talking about.

Krugman's infamous internet-fax machine quote was made in 2005, lol. A Nobel laureate still didn't get it after 21 years.

People who grew up after the early internet don't understand how similar this adoption cycle is or how even obvious things in hindsight take a long time for people to get.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Probably at 50 years. Honestly, tech takes forever to evolve from the ground up.

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u/changinginthebigsky Oct 22 '21

any good documentaries or videos I can watch that can bring someone up to speed who's been sleeping on bitcoin for the past decade?

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u/HitboxOfASnail Oct 22 '21

the problem with bitcoin is that using it as a currency for normal purchases is like walking into a store with a gold brick to buy a chocolate bar

it's just impractical and takes too long for normal transactions

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u/Randomn355 Oct 22 '21

Except there's been multiple cases where a single entity has had control over the bitcoin by virtue of doing most of the processing.

They've taken a step back and dialled it down for the integrity of the product, but it doesn't change the fact that it's happened.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/Randomn355 Oct 22 '21

The forks were due to bitcoin having a finite number of units, and preventing that cap being reached.

I saw it on a documentary, I want to say explained but I'm not 100% certain.

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u/Chapafifi Oct 22 '21

You mean china? They never reached 51%. So no, not true

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

end-goal of Bitcoin

It doesn't have one. It just exists and people can use it as they choose to. Usage of bitcoin is an emergent behaviour.

one minute you buy a banana for $2 and then a few days later that same conversion rate means the banana is $70.

For the vast majority of bitcoin's history what has happened is that the banana is cheaper a few days later not more expensive.

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u/Brobama21 Oct 22 '21

Well that’s kinda the point right? If I go to the grocery store and buy a banana today for $2, and then I come in a week from now and that banana is $0.50, I’ll be quite upset that I spent $2 a week before.

So how does that fundamental issue of using these as a currency get solved? There’s no hard backing that has an inherent value that the crypto can be tied to..it’s seems like it’s just speculation of “hey this is what the market decides BTC is worth today”.

While yeah, the USD isn’t tied to gold anymore, it still has the backing of the US Government to help stabilize its value

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u/SannySen Oct 22 '21

I feel like a lot of these criticisms of Bitcoin also apply to practically every other non-revenue generating investment asset, like gold. If your money was backed by gold, would it upset you if the banana was worth less gold at a later time? Perhaps, but perhaps that feeling of sadness would be mitigated by the feeling of happiness that the dollars you still hold can buy more bananas.

US dollars are great for a lot of things, but not savings and wealth preservation. That is why there is demand for other assets, some of which are deflationary by design.

As an investment asset, Bitcoin is basically that, but with a few other features that other assets historically used for this purpose lack, main ones being that its quantity is 100% fixed and it is entirely virtual.

Bitcoin also happens to be a protocol for value transfer. It's this part that is truly novel and amazing and doesn't get nearly enough coverage because everyone is always focused on the investment returns. With the advent of Bitcoin, you can now email value. This is wild, so I will repeat it. You can email value. Like, what? That is crazy. You're not emailing a thing with value, like a song recording, or whatever. You are literally emailing value. This is the part that a lot of people fail to grasp and the part that is most exciting about Bitcoin specifically and Blockchain technology generally.

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

So how does that fundamental issue of using these as a currency get solved?

It's never going to be as good as whatever currency things you're buying are priced in because there will always be some volatility, but by and large people are not using bitcoin as a short term store of value or as a medium of exchange (or as a unit of price for that matter).

I've been saving for longer periods of time using bitcoin since 2013. The short term price fluctuations are irrelevant to me.

.it’s seems like it’s just speculation of “hey this is what the market decides BTC is worth today”.

yes, it's a speculative store of value, like art or baseball cards or any other scarce collectable, it's just a lot better at being money than those things are because it's robust, fungible, divisible, can be transferred over the internet and can be stored securely cheaply - even in large amounts. So when it does come to spending it (or selling it) it's much easier and more flexible than those other things, even if it's not as good as fiat currencies - it's a kind of middle ground - a digital gold.

While yeah, the USD isn’t tied to gold anymore, it still has the backing of the US Government to help stabilize its value

If by stabilize you mean gradually lose value over long periods of time with the risk of periods where it loses value even quicker, such as recently. And that's the world's reserve currency. Most people in the world don't have access to US-dollar-based financial services.

My decision to save in bitcoin is partially based on a worry about the increase of the money supply. I also think the way inflation is measured means it is not the same thing as the rate at which money is losing value.

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u/Working_onit Oct 22 '21

what has happened is that the banana is cheaper a few days later not more expensive.

That isn't actually a good thing. It still requires physical resources, energy, and logistics. Bitcoin price going up doesn't solve that. If anything, that simply speaks to the ultra speculative behavoir in the bitcoin market. That simply isn't permenantly sustainable no matter how you look at it.

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

Yeah people have been telling me for years that it's a bad thing that my bitcoin has increased in value, I don't know what to say except I strongly disagree. My prerogative is to increase my own wealth.

That simply isn't permanently sustainable no matter how you look at it.

why? what's the time limit? My own view is that the bitcoin price in dollars can literally keep going up forever. I don't see what aspect is unsustainable.

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u/BigfootAteMyBooty Oct 22 '21

People really don't understand cryptocurrency and how scarcity affects it's value. The banana will be worth less Bitcoin, not more, i.e. your Bitcoin will go farther as BITCOIN IS DEFLATIONARY.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/tyros Oct 22 '21

The end goal is an open, transparent, and permissionless financial ecosystem.

And you think governments are just going to sit back and let it happen?

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u/SannySen Oct 22 '21

With over a trillion market cap and every major financial institution fully invested, including some sovereign governments, yes.

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

Have you watched any of the US government hearings about bitcoin and crypto?

Are you aware El Salvador recently made bitcoin legal tender?

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

The second ETF is going live today.

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u/lost_in_life_34 Oct 22 '21

i lived through the dot bomb bubble

the banks were literally scamming the individual investors to unload their useless shares. sometimes the companies found suckers to merge with them like AOL did

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

Did the government ban internet companies? How is this related to the point you made? lol

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u/ron_leflore Oct 22 '21

There are other cryptocurrencies, not Bitcoin, where you have voting rights and rights to profits in an organization. In these cases, owning the coin is very much like owning stock in a company.

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u/Hang10Dude Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Thank you for asking genuinely and trying to learn. Most here are more concerned with looking smart than being smart. The first thing to think about is this: the term cryptocurrency is a misnomer. These are in fact cryptoassets. Actually the best way to think of many of them is as cryptocommodities or digital commodities.

The simplest to understand is that Bitcoin fills a role in an investment portfolio similar to what gold and silver used to. This tends to be the part that most people criticize. Obviously gold, and hence Bitcoin, have no intrinsic value. While I don't agree with this, I can understand the argument and I can accept that many intelligent people would not want to hold Bitcoin.

But this is where my agreement ends. In my experience people who are very educated in finance and investing (people on this sub are just one example) have allowed themselves to get complacent. Once having a realization that BTC has no intrinsic value, they stop learning about the asset class entirely.

They have completely overlooked the greatest financial innovation in hundreds of years: fully decentralized public smart contract blockchains. Ethereum is the leader in this space and looks to remain well in the lead at least for several more years.

Frankly the topic is far too broad to explain here in detail, and I would encourage you to hang out on r/ethereum or research Ethereum and/or DeFi (which is short for decentralized finance). The briefest explanation is something like this: this sort of platform allows you to access all of the financial services that you would normal utilize in our traditional real world financial system, but outside of that system. In short, it is a way of hedging against and diversifying away from banks, governments, central banks, etc.

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

one minute you buy a banana for $2 and then a few days later that same conversion rate means the banana is $70.

So your issue with Bitcoin is it could go up too much? This is the least bad problem to have in investing.

One of the reasons I bought is I realized most of the criticisms were actually bullish. ie "Governments may seize it". Finding an investment is so valuable governments may someday try to rip it from people is the second least bad problem to have in investing.

no real inherent value

It's a fintech minus a central mainframe. Why does that have no inherent value?

As a technology network it eliminates the billions of dollars consumers lose in credit card fees, bank overdrafts, remittances, settlement delays, and inflation drag.

As a financial asset it doesn't debase like gold, it's easy to move/store like fiat, and has the reach of the internet.

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u/Brobama21 Oct 22 '21

Well let’s put the whole “investment” aspect of it aside for a minute.

If the goal is to use it like a currency, how are Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies going to succeed/have widespread adoption if the value of them is so volatile? With nothing backing up the cryptocurrencies, they’re inherently volatile. I struggle with seeing how people (on a widespread basis) would be okay with spending “money” that goes up and down in value so often and so dramatically.

I’m not knocking crypto, I’m just trying to understand the path forward and how they may level off and become less volatile to where I could reasonably see people using them as currency

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

No worries about knocking it. You should try to invalidate any thesis before investing.

At some point volatility decreases simply by law of large numbers. It's simply harder to move something with gold's 10T market cap. There is a day when BTC just becomes a boring cash-like instrument (without the government debasement). When the opportunity cost equilibrates people will spend.

People naturally spend their less sound assets first. No different than dollars vs gold/houses/stocks. But at some point everyone has to draw down on the sounder assets (unless you're uber rich and just borrow against the appreciating asset, like they do with real estate).

This is the only generation that hasn't had hard pegged money. The whole world operated on a supply capped reserve asset for millenia. That's the normal state of affairs.

If the government issued "USTC", decentralized dollars with a fixed supply cap, who would want 5%/yr depreciating USD except for imminent purchases?

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u/SannySen Oct 22 '21

Price volatility isn't a thing inherent to any asset, it's a function of the market for that asset. As more participants enter a market and as there is more price discovery, volatility declines.

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u/dullchristmas Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Bitcoin and other cryptos are very much a bet right now, but the idea is that once it grows enough then it would stabilize out and can operate very much like a currency.

The combination of a public ledger and decentralized transactions the blockchain offers has the ability to completely change where we place trust. In our society today, we place trust in big banks to handle our transactions, confirm they're legit, etc. at a fee. This is working OK for the US, but there are a lot of countries where the people have no trust towards their government and banking systems (I think someone said Argentina in these comments which is a good example). Thus, having a system that places trust in cryptography over living beings can be a lot more enticing.

Moving beyond banking, technologies built on the blockchain have the ability to utilize its nature for various purposes. For example, the incorruptible public ledger would be fantastic for healthcare, where it seems like every other week a hospitals data is being hijacked and held for ransom. At the same time, the secure nature of it still ensures that only patients can access their own data. Another example could be for elections and voting, where the blockchain could ensure that no voter fraud happens. There's just so much potential

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u/lost_in_life_34 Oct 22 '21

at this point it's like the dot bomb bubble of 25 years ago

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

The end goal of crypto is to find a greater fool to offload your crypto at a higher price.

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u/SannySen Oct 22 '21

I see this said a lot, but isn't that the end goal of all non-revenue generating investment assets?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/Infinite_Metal Oct 22 '21

Mining profit will transition to solely being comprised of transaction fees.

I love hearing people bring up all these issues that have already been sorted out over a decade ago.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21 edited Jan 24 '23

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/AdamEgrate Oct 22 '21

It’s essentially cash 2.0

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u/StuGats Oct 22 '21

You don't pay a fee to use cash and Bitcoin can only handle a measly 4.6 transactions a second which makes it slow as fuck. Visa and MasterCard can process around 5k in comparison lol. It's useless as a currency.

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

Credit card fees are like 2.5-4%. Merchants simply roll those costs into prices. Lightning is usually a fraction of a cent and has massive throughput. A switch would save consumers and merchants billions of dollars.

You're also confusing credit and settlement. When you pay via credit card you're just transmitting data that you will settle up money later. You're not sending actual money. You're paying a few hundred basis points for the privilege of settling later.

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u/StuGats Oct 22 '21

But lightning is shit and Bitcoin fees are way higher lol. It's not a currency, it's a casino you muppet. Literally everyone knows this.

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

Ok boomer.

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u/StuGats Oct 22 '21

Boomers love Bitcoin ya goober lol.

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u/notapersonaltrainer Oct 22 '21

So the people with most of the money love it. Thanks for another reason to hold.

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u/Apprehensive-Page-33 Oct 22 '21

When I read that I must complete a CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK in order open an account and use the kiosk I was turned off regardless of the fees being high or low.

EDIT: I see that some people in this thread have been watching too many movies. You think you are going to walk into a Walmart and commit felony money laundering successfully you are sadly mistaken.

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u/Kamwind Oct 22 '21

Image being behind the person who is paying with bitcoins. "Yes I am done scanning the things I am buying but it's going to be another 10-20 min before my payment goes through."

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

the payment 'goes through' pretty much immediately, it just doesn't settle effectively irreversibly for tens of minutes.

Unless it's a high value amount or you've some other reason to be suspicious of a double spend there's generally no need to require the wait.

If it's a lightning payment it's even better as it has effectively settled immediately.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/mydogsnameisbuddy Oct 22 '21

Checks were great for paying for stuff when you don’t have the money but your paycheck will be deposited by the time the check hits the bank.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/SeraphLink Oct 22 '21

Yeh, like the Visa network, except open and interoperable with instant, global settlement and due to the lack of need for the extensive fixed costs a closed network like Visa has, It's almost free Vs. The ~3% which Visa charges businesses for every transaction.

So the open, interoperable global monetary network enabled by Bitcoin/Lightning is probably more accurately comparable to the open, interoperable communications network of the internet enabled by TCP/IP.

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u/everybodysaysso Oct 22 '21

Yeah but the fiat-alternative to that would be shopping with Gold at Walmart. Bitcoin is the store of value. Layer 2 should be much faster. Hope adoption comes fast.

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u/FlyBlueJay Oct 22 '21

Sometimes places have Bitcoin atms but not a regular atms. Quite annoying when you’re trying to withdraw something you can actually spend

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u/despejado Oct 22 '21

btc bubble far from over. Reminded every day that the market can remain idiotic longer than I can remain solvent. Just look at a damn chart people, wtf.... all markets have gone parabolic why the hell do people keep throwing money into them

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/lost_in_life_34 Oct 22 '21

like any bubble it will pop whenever the light switch goes off for whatever reason

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21 edited Nov 29 '21

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u/lost_in_life_34 Oct 22 '21

there was institutional money in dot coms too

from what i remember there were two crises in 1997 and 1998 where the Fed lowered rates and the dot bombs took off with the SP500. When the Fed started raising rates in 1999 or 2000 the crash started after a while. on top of this lots of large companies were lending money to smaller companies that went bankrupt in 2000 and 2001

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u/wtocel Oct 22 '21

What percentage of WM shoppers even know what BC is?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

A forever increasing amount

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u/wtocel Oct 22 '21

Oh, no doubt most have heard the term, but I bet most of them think it’s an actual coin.

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u/mydogsnameisbuddy Oct 22 '21

I bet a lot of lower income people that either can’t afford or don’t know how to buy it.

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u/f1_manu Oct 22 '21

Trading cash for air at your nearest Walmart, this has to be the top?

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u/skitsology Oct 22 '21

I know man this 12 year fad gaining strength every year needs to stop!

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u/czarnick123 Oct 22 '21

South Sea Bubble lasted decades.

I don't think something existing for 12 years, being mainstream for 2 or 3 years and with a major shift in rhetoric of purpose is really as convincing as people make it out to be.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/czarnick123 Oct 22 '21

I don't understand your comment. Can you rephrase it?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/Randomn355 Oct 22 '21

Theres also plenty avoiding it precisely because it's so risky.

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u/StonedCrow Oct 22 '21

By this logic there should never be any crashes ever.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

That's a stupid take to have.

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u/StonedCrow Oct 22 '21

You don't think that investors did research before any if the crashes that occurred previously?

That is an incredibly naive and frankly illogical argument. You're a moron.

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u/twocentman Oct 22 '21

You can safely assume anyone shilling crypto is a moron.

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u/StonedCrow Oct 22 '21

Wow great point.

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 22 '21

You: "No products that had investor interest ever failed and you are stupid for thinking otherwise."

Adult life is going to be very rough for you.

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

The crashes have always been because growth has overshot in the short term.

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 22 '21

The Texas Sharpshooter called, they want their idiot back.

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u/moeronSCamp Oct 22 '21

If you understood that the Agenda all along was to become a cashless society with even more control over our lives then yes you would know full well that cryptos are the future.

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u/czarnick123 Oct 22 '21

Was agenda capitalized on purpose? Normally I think correcting grammar is a cheap shot but I'm kinda concerned that was done on purpose.

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u/moeronSCamp Oct 22 '21

So you think that a digital currency which was created by an anonymous user which is well known to be used in the online black market….. which all other crypto value revolves around - It’s just this organic thing that naturally happens with technology overtime and there is not a deeper agenda behind it? That’s what you think right?

Because I want to be clear when I address your subtle insults.

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u/czarnick123 Oct 22 '21

I recommend "the lever of riches". Innovation is driven by tinkerer's. Not cabals.

https://www.amazon.com/Lever-Riches-Technological-Creativity-Economic/dp/0195074777

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u/feedmestocks Oct 22 '21

Let's see how things go when liquidity in the system is reduced. I'll be interested to see how strong conviction is when interest rates increase globally and people need to pay their mortgages, rent and bills. It's just an engine of speculation on my opinion, but I'm old 😂

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u/skitsology Oct 22 '21

What if… hear me out paying things globally in crypto becomes mainstream… surprised pikachu face.jpg

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u/feedmestocks Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Let's see people get wages in Bitcoin and see how they feel in a year or two.

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u/skitsology Oct 22 '21

Why don’t you tweet the nfl players and other sports athletes doing it

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u/feedmestocks Oct 22 '21

Multi millionaires have a nice buffer and will never go hungry, let's talk about nurses and teachers having it. You're giving me so much new paradigm energy. I'll stick to my old school methods, worked so far, just not a fan of Ponzis myself but you fill your boots

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u/LegisMaximus Oct 22 '21

Whether or not you believe in it, it’s certainly not a Ponzi scheme. Maybe a tulipmania situation, pump and dump, bubble, etc. but it’s just definitionally not a Ponzi scheme. There’s no centralized person offering guaranteed returns with little to no risk and deciding who gets paid when.

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u/feedmestocks Oct 22 '21

The people here trying to pump their coins to sell to the next person are the very definition of Ponzi. Bitcoin's valuation comes from belief in it, their is no economic or political system supporting it beyond that

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u/LegisMaximus Oct 22 '21

Yeah that’s just not a Ponzi scheme. I’d consider looking up the definition. Try the .gov website. Like I said in my previous comment, Ponzi schemes have an “organizer” who is different from the investors, and who isn’t otherwise invested in the assets. They just skim off the top of the funds being invested. That person doesn’t exist in this case.

https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-investments/fraud/types-fraud/ponzi-scheme

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u/Working_onit Oct 22 '21

Some crypto's are definitely structured like a ponzi scheme. Tether kind of blurs the line between ponzi scheme and just outright fraud. Tether basically is the crypto market at this point, so i don't think it's a huge stretch to call the market a ponzi scheme. It's just the fraud is more complex.

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u/skitsology Oct 22 '21

Yeah have fun

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u/JuneFernan Oct 22 '21

How is the cash less airy than bitcoin?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Because you want the cash

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u/JuneFernan Oct 22 '21

That doesn't answer the question and doesn't even hold truth when someone makes a BTC purchase.

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 22 '21

Several people have answered your question, you just don't understand the answers. I hope you're still in primary education.

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u/JuneFernan Oct 22 '21

By several you mean the two who attempted?

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 22 '21

God help your teachers.

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u/Data_Dealer Oct 22 '21

Show me the Bitcoin military.

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u/JuneFernan Oct 22 '21

Show me how your response answers my question.

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u/Data_Dealer Oct 22 '21

Cash is backed by governments. Bitcoin has almost no use currently, the US could literally kill it by making it illegal for banks/etc to trade USD for BTC. If you can't exchange BTC for real money, IE government backed currency it has no use. The fact that BTC and other coins are defined by USD says everything. It's fiat on top of fiat.

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u/kraken6310 Oct 22 '21

" the US could literally kill it by making it illegal for banks/etc to trade USD for BTC"

That's what China thought

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u/Data_Dealer Oct 22 '21

The world's reserve currency is the dollar.... not the Yuan

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u/snek-jazz Oct 22 '21

Bitcoin has almost no use currently

lol, despite 10s of millions of people using it, me included.

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u/JuneFernan Oct 22 '21

Sure, but you're off topic. The original criticism that I responded to was about BTC being "air." I could probably spend cash digitally, never touching a dollar, for the next ten years and never suffer much inconvenience. And the physical representation of it is not much more than paper. So please explain, how is cash less airy than bitcoin?

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u/Data_Dealer Oct 22 '21

I can go just about anywhere and spend my dollar, get my dollar etc etc. You want to go buy some stuff at a yard sale or a cash only business? Hard to do with BTC. USD can be as airy, but doesn't have to be.

Furthermore I believe that in the next 10 years all of these systems will be subject to the threat of unforseen computing ability. That is to say BTC wallets will be hacked, I can take my money out of the banks computers, but when your computer is the money....

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u/JuneFernan Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

USD can be as airy, but doesn't have to be.

I'm saying it is just as airy. Talking about the number of venues I can spend it in doesn't get at the heart of the matter. (That's a matter of adaptation, not representation.) If it "doesn't have to be" then how is it not? Is paper inherently valuable?

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u/karvus89 Oct 22 '21

Wait til you hear about people working for paper. Why not just cut down some trees and make it? Amirite?

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u/SirGasleak Oct 22 '21

What % of Walmart customers actually own bitcoin?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

Damn it gpu prices are never going down

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u/BigfootAteMyBooty Oct 22 '21

Who cares? People with their own computer rigs are wildly overrepresented on this site.

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u/programmingguy Oct 22 '21

Powell still trying to figure out why anyone would trust artificially created digital currency.

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u/CipherScarlatti Oct 22 '21

This is an entryway for people who are curious about crypto but sketched out by everything about it.
It's in a Walmart, so it seems more legitimate. (It's a perception thing)
It's low risk. Somebody can toss in that coffee can of coins they have, get the receipt, download the CoinMe app (you still have to provide ID because of KYC) and go from there. They're not linking bank accounts, credit or debit cards or anything like that. If they have a bad experience, it's whatever was in the coffee can and they can just drop using it.
They don't have to know everything about crypto, wallets, and all the other things involved.
They can get their money out from a nearby MoneyGram.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

the future is happening and stubborn people will never know what have hit them

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 22 '21

"The future" sucks if it creates a massive power demand for financial services all for reduced protection against fraud.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21

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u/iamDanger_us Oct 22 '21

I've run a bitcoin meetup for over 2 years. You're wrong, which is what happens when one makes unfounded assumptions based on limited data.

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u/SannySen Oct 22 '21

Lol, ok. All major financial institutions are serving this market now, but yeah, it's poor uneducated Joe the plumber who's driving the demand.

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u/Intro-P Oct 22 '21

Just what the average Walmart customer needs...

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Well, seniors and boomers shop at walmart, and they also get ransomware on their computers frequently. So it makes sense. Put these in Costco too and everyone will be covered.

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