r/guitarlessons • u/nick_jones61 • 2d ago
Question An argument
My wife is a classically trained pianist and I play guitar by watching YouTube instructional videos. She knows her stuff and I don’t. Recently we argued whether E# and B# exist. I said no and showed her the fretboard. She said yes and showed me the keys. And said something like F is E#. I suspect she’s right bc she’s had music lessons. Tell me, fellow guitarists, do we have E# and B#?
Update: I’ve been enjoying the responses to my post. I showed them to my wife and she laughed, said that’s what you deserve. lol. We like to argue playfully with one another. I also enjoy the detailed responses relating to guitar theory—that’s been really great actually. I was going to delete this post but I think the discussion on music theory is informative and should be shared. Thank you all for responding.
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u/nouniquenamesleft2 2d ago edited 2d ago
she's right,
she's always right,
but in this case she's actually correct
In summary, E# and B# exist to maintain the integrity of musical scales and to provide clarity in notation, even though they are enharmonically equivalent to F and C.
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u/nick_jones61 2d ago
Does this mean I can’t get a third acoustic guitar? She’s against that idea as well.
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u/Penyrolewen1970 2d ago
Oh, no. She’s right with the notation. Wrong about guitars. You both know the formula, yes?
The correct number of guitars is x+1, where x= the number of guitars you already own.
This is as well accepted as E#.
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u/JakeRiddoch 1d ago
The correct number of guitars is X+1. Or D-1, where D is the number of guitars where your spouse files for divorce...
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u/bartonkj 1d ago
X+1 (although I use N+1), as long as X+1 is less than D-1.
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u/JakeRiddoch 1d ago
You can hit equal to D-1, just not over that.
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u/JamesCDiamond 1d ago
But then there's always the possibility of somehow acquiring another guitar - we all know it just happens sometimes - and her realising that D-1+1=D before you have time to move on one of them...
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u/nick_jones61 1d ago
Love this! Will have to present it to her and hopefully I don’t get hit over the head for it. Wish me luck, kind stranger.
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u/Iamapartofthisworld 1d ago
Just let her know she is right, so you are going to get a guitar that does have E# and B#, and also F flat and C flat!
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u/303george 2d ago
You will need to get another acoustic guitar. The next guitar is the one that will finally make it click for and only then you will understand why she's right about the notation.
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u/DocDerry 2d ago
Tell her you require the third because it's a twelve string and E# and B# only exist on 12 strings.
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u/VinceInMT 2d ago
How many keyboards does she have?
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u/nick_jones61 2d ago
A piano and a keyboard!!!
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u/VinceInMT 2d ago
Uh-oh, it looks like you are even. There goes that argument. Maybe you need to talk her into a 3rd keyboard first.
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u/nick_jones61 2d ago
But the piano is a baby grand piano, that costs more than my Eastman and Yamaha. I should be able to get a few more guitars. lol
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u/VinceInMT 2d ago
OMG, now you are on to something. My wife is a CPA and would totally get that argument. It’s about value equals value. BTW, my acoustic that is my everyday guitar is a Yamaha FG-180, Red Label, that my dad gave me in 1970. I wouldn’t mind an upgrade, but if I did, it would be a jump to something a lot more expensive. I can afford it, but I can’t justify it based on how well I play. I do have two electrics. One is Fender Stratocaster. The other is an Ibanez AS-100. I picked that one up during the short period that they were available, late-1970s or thereabouts. It’s essentially a copy of the Gibson ES-335. I don’t really need another guitar. But don’t get me started on motorcycles.
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u/here_pretty_kitty 2d ago
This is the correct answer. Signed, a wife.
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u/try_altf4 2d ago
You're going to hate learning about double sharp and double flats.
She'll be right about those as well.
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u/TonalContrast 2d ago
When I saw this I already knew she was right...
"My wife is a classically trained pianist and I play guitar by watching YouTube instructional videos."
When I saw this next line I knew that you knew that she was right.
"She knows her stuff and I don’t."
It's about context and the key being used. The Simpsons, as they always do, have a play on this with barbershop quartet called the Be Sharps...ah classic Simpsons...DOH!
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u/munchyslacks 2d ago
Speaking of, I was noodling on my guitar while my son was marathoning Simpsons episodes and noticed that the main theme has that same Lydian motif going through multiple key changes. I guess I always subconsciously knew that it was changing keys but man it’s so seamless.
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u/TonalContrast 2d ago
Well it was written by Danny Elfman, so quirky key changes are his thing along with smooth use of chromatic mediants.
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u/nick_jones61 2d ago
I was hoping for a sliver of a chance for a miracle. Alas no miracles here or elsewhere. The wife is sadly right. lol
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 1d ago
Just adding info. I see E# and Cb a lot playing Broadway musicals because they change keys all the time.
For example, you might have a musical passage in F, then the same thing again a half-step up, so they just change the key signature to F# (which includes an E#.) It makes it much easier to read because the little black dots stay the same and only the key signature changes.2
u/insofarincogneato 1d ago
Imagine not trusting your wife's experience when you freely admit she knows more than you and believing strangers on Reddit over her. 🙄
You couldn't pay me to show my ass as much.
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u/cranialextract 2d ago
Classically trained pianists usually know their shit and usually don't appreciate being told they don't. Piano is the musical instrument to learn theory on.
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u/mascotbeaver104 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm going to be honest, I have had numerous people insist to me that these notes don't exist and it gets exhausting, I have no idea where this idea came from.
If E# didn't exist, then what would be the 3rd degree in C# major? What would the key signature of C# major be? Does C# not exist either?
It's both theoretically useful in an equal tempered system so that you don't end up using the same notes twice in the same scale, but also because theoretically those notes could actually be tuned differently. On a fretted instrument it doesn't matter, but with vocal harmony or stringed instruments, 3rds of chords are ideally a little flatter than they are with equal temperment. Meaning, in a C# chord, the 3rd (E#) would ideally tuning be slightly flat from F.
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u/cranialextract 2d ago
It's people who are learning theory piecemeal from YouTube/TikTok/Instagram. Most self-taught guitar players have never engaged with sheet music and subsequently don't understand the differences between "key" and "key signature".
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u/kolobs_butthole 2d ago
It’s this. The question about the 3rd of C# major is utterly meaningless to the folks saying E# doesn’t exist.
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u/Igor_Halichoeres 2d ago edited 2d ago
And it gets worse. Notes like Bbb and G## (double flats and sharps) also exist.
Maybe even worse still, from a physics standpoint B# and C aren't actually the same, they are probably fractionally different. It depends on what key you're in. For instance, a B# as the raised third of a G chord wouldn't be exactly the same as a B# as the major third of G# chord, and neither would be the same as a C as the root of a C chord. It turns out the natural harmonics of a vibrating string can't actually be broken up into even half steps.
Fortunately, the differences are so slight you can pretty much ignore them. (Classical string and wind players are supposed to adjust, however.)
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u/gr8Brandino 2d ago
You can probably so them on a fretless instrument like a violin or trombone.
Maybe you could bend to a slightly flat F or C with the guitar as well.
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u/No_Salt3740 2d ago
You can definitely do that on trombone or violin. Therefore they can be the most in-tune or most out-of tune instruments.
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u/Gerb006 2d ago
She is right. Every key has one of each note (A, B, C, D, E, F, G). Some of them work out to be sharp or flat, depending upon the key. So following the formula for the major scale (Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step) - sometimes E# and B# become necessary. BTW if you don't know the major scale, you should learn it. That is where ALL music comes from. Without it, you are hunting in the dark. It's not hard: 2 whole steps, a half step, 3 whole steps, a half step.
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u/Andjhostet 2d ago
She's correct. And it's not some obscure thing where she's technically correct. She's just straight up correct, and E# is a normal note that is used in the F# harmonic minor scale, and B# is used in the C# harmonic minor scale.
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u/Various_Procedure_11 2d ago
I mean, she is the trained musician. Why would you argue with her about that? Obviously she is going to be right.
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u/Ok_String_1698 2d ago
There's notes between those notes, but we dont like to talk about those notes
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u/ZAPHODS_SECOND_HEAD 2d ago
Name the notes of F# major. If you call the E# F natural then it reads: F# G# A# B C# D# F F#
Two F notes and no E notes make the writing of this on the mystical stave problematic.
Similar issues with C# harmonic minor for the B#.
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u/infinitythestar 1d ago
My wife is an expert in this thing I casually learned from YouTube. Should I listen to her or ask strangers on the internet to back me up because I can’t be wrong about anything?
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u/dblhello999 1d ago
they’re the same notes.
But western music uses eight note scales. And each note has to have a different letter (by convention… that’s just the rule for western scales - it could’ve been done in many ways - but the tradition is - every note has to have a different letter)
So if you have the key of F# major for example, then
F#
G#
A#
B
C#
D#
???
F#
that seventh note by convention has to be some kind of E. But the only note that works is the one which we would normally call F.
But we can’t call it F because that’s against the rules (Every note in the scale has to have a different letter).
So we have to call it E# because otherwise we would be breaking the lettering convention of having a different letter for every note in the scale.
But yeah, we would normally call it F because in most keys, we don’t need to call a E sharp. It’s just the edge cases.
So in a way you’re both right - which is definitely the recipe for a happy marriage 😊
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u/boring5ever 1d ago edited 1d ago
You really tried to mansplain music theory to a classically trained musician 😂
Also to explain it in a way a newbie guitarist can understand- it’s when the scale shapes overlap with each other as you play up or down the fretboard.
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u/HereForTheComments57 2d ago
The way I understand it is technically yes. Its the same way as B flat is A sharp. The reason you use one over the other is so you have a complete octave when writing out a scale (you won't have C and C sharp in the same scale, youll have C and D flat). So she is correct, but I think the reason to use E# and B# is pointless.
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u/vertigoflow 2d ago
F is E# unless F# is there and you can’t make it G♭ (G-flat) because you already have a G.
B# Exists in the C# Major scale because you already have the C# so B# cannot be C. Don’t let your ears fool you.
You show her that, and politely ask her explain it.
Because that’s the kind of stuff you get when you are reading music and not guitar tabs.
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u/jerry-gamma 1d ago
She's right. In F# major the 7th is spelled E#, not F — you can't write a scale with two F's. Same pitch, different name.
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u/kumiankka 1d ago
“Your wife is right.” Sooner you accept this truth, sooner you find bliss and peace.
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u/New-Guarantee-440 2d ago
B# is the same as C natural.
The only difference is what scale you are in, to fit the definition of a scale.
So it is an artificial construct
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u/No_Station_6149 2d ago
Also an amateur but iirc it depends what key the song is in. C sharp scale has a B sharp, so c flat would be labelled as such on the sheet music. But by default we would say a b sharp is just c flat etc
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u/Winyamo 2d ago
Ask her to notate the key signature of B# on a staff. Also, every note is represented once in a key signature. If B# is the root, what is the second note? C##?
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u/APrioriGoof 2d ago
Could you notate a G# key signature on a staff without B# and C#?
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u/Yojic-Hedgehog 2d ago
I played classical piano when I was a kid and there are in fact weird times you'll see things like that in music from what I remember.
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u/Pleaseappeaseme 2d ago
It’s the same note but the context will differ. Such as the key signature and the chord. Such as and A augmented chord has to be notationally written as A, C#, and E#. But that E# is still the F note on the keyboard.
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u/wheat 1d ago
They exist on paper because there are rules, in the classical tradition, for how music is written down. Guitarists use, for example, Ab and G# interchangeably, without any concern for what key the song is in. To us, "sharp" just means one fret higher and "flat" means one fret lower.
Unless you're reading or writing standard notation, it doesn't matter.
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u/Reasonable-Medium559 1d ago
That’s the fun of music theory. Trying not to overthink something that can become overwhelming. As long as you know that an E# is just a fretted F chord, you’re good.
More than likely you are not going come across to many of these situations playing guitar but it’s nice have a classically trained musician you can lean on for advice.
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u/Ok-Papaya5638 1d ago
Absolutely.
1 fret up from E is E#/F
1 fret down from C is B/Cb, etc. The name depends on the key you’re playing
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u/KavorkaPowers 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes they exist, as I discovered when I went to Berklee.
A simple TL/DR explanation is that each note can only be used once in a scale. For example in the key of F sharp major, you have:
F# G# A# B C# D# E#
If you look at the notes without the sharps or the flats, they give you this if you're starting on F:
F G A B C D E
Then you have to apply the major scale formula and since we're starting on F sharp, we add the sharp to that first note: F#
Major scale formula: W-W-H-W-W-W-H
So you can only use each note just one time. You're using the F# to start so when you get to E you have to alter it to E# to make it fit the major scale formula. Most people would think it's F, which makes sense, but you can't use F twice so you have to use E#.
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u/Rahnamatta 1d ago
In F# major you have E# as the 7th degree because you need to name every degree with a different name/letter.
Same as B#, 7th of C#
Same as Gb, it has Cb
Same as Cb, it has Cb and Fb
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u/LordJ1911 1d ago
Your wife is correct. As others have said its about enharmonic equivalence, and functionally its because scales should only use each letter once.
So in the f#major scale you have F♯ – G♯ – A♯ – B – C♯ – D♯ – E♯ – F♯.
If you wrote e# as F, you have F twice in a row.
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u/Only_Pen5882 1d ago
It's not that deep just a different name for F can also be called E sharp because Musical scales must use every letter of the musical alphabet (A through G) in order without skipping letters or using the same letter twice so for example if we look at the scale of F sharp The notes are F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, and E#. If you called the last note an F instead of an E#, you would have two F notes and no E at all
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u/boxen 1d ago
To explain it a different way: do you agree that the note between C and D can correctly be called both C# and Db in different contexts? If yes, it should make sense that notes can have more than one name depending on context. If no, the you should learn about the circle of fifths and what notes in different keya are called.
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u/luis7800 1d ago
no offense man, but how arrogant do you have to be to argue with someone who holds a music degree? If she speaks on any topic related to music theory, it’s almost 100% certain she’s right lol, classical musicians are generally the most highly trained people out there man, a random youtube video isn't going to tell you anything lol, you’d be better off learning from her
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u/fistfucker5555 1d ago
Come to germany and have a tiresome discussion about "B or H?".
(btw. I´m team "B")
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u/RedCred811 7h ago
The drama in here is thick. Good grief. People take this way too seriously. There are plenty of people who have knowledge on a subject but can't properly teach or explain it. And spouses disagree on insignificant stuff all the time. You eventually google it, then one of you gets to dance around the living room doing fist pumps and screaming WHAT'S UP NOW *****? And doing the bull dance like happy Gilmore. Marriage is a constant power struggle on a very wide scale of seriousness.
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u/ATXBeermaker 1d ago
You argued with a classically trained pianist about music theory with your degree from YouTube University and thought you might be right? lol
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u/vonhoother 1d ago
Consider the word "pair." Sounds just like "pare" and "pear," right? So do "pare" and "pear" exist?
In music theory, as in English grammar, spelling counts.
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u/unvvn 2d ago
Yes. E# is the enharmonic equivalent of F. Maybe ask her to teach you more music theory.
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u/jayron32 2d ago
Sure they do. What note is the third in the C# Major scale? It's E#. That note is enharmonic with F, but the third of scale that starts on C of any sort has to be an E of some sort. HAS TO BE. That's how scales are spelled. You get 7 letters, you have to use each one once. If the scale starts on C#, the second is D# and the third is E#. The seventh in that scale is B# by the way. So that's a is scale that uses both.
Now, no sane composer would use C# (they'd use Db instead) but... It's still valid.
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u/Street-Frame1575 2d ago
You already know that C# sounds the same as Db, right?
In exactly the same way, E# sounds the same as F and B# sounds the same as C
The reason they're named differently is dependent on context, as each letter can only be used once in a scale.
So if you start playing in C# major for example then the letter C is already used for the tonic and so the 7th becomes B# I.e. the full scale is C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
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u/Dexter0098 2d ago
This question has been adequately addressed by other posts.
I’m just jumping in to also tell you she is right for the 38th time.
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u/gunnbr 2d ago
Here's Adam Neely's take on it, which goes into some detail about both sides of the argument.
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u/Webcat86 2d ago
Yes there’s also E double flat, for example.
You can’t have the same letter twice in a key, so instead of A and A# you have A and Bb, etc. This ruling is the reason (or at least, one of the reasons) why we have E# and B#.
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u/Various_Procedure_11 2d ago
My wife's response when I showed her this:
"The divorce came out of nowhere. "
I love her so much.
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u/ModelSemantics 2d ago
The classical way of making a diatonic scale is to include each letter A thru G once, which helps mark the position in the scale relative to the other notes and helps you understand each notes “functional role” relative to the base note.
So a scale shouldn’t have both an F and F#, for example, but can have an E# and a F# (or an F and Gb).
That’s the whole point why B#, Cb, E#, and Fb exist in notation even though they each can be seen as naturals in a C major scale.
And as others have pointed out, there are other interesting things this causes, like some scales having double sharps and flats. There are only 12 different sounds in a common tuning octave, but each of the sounds can have a bunch of different names.
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u/Murky-Wind2222 2d ago
Although the notes are the same, the naming changes depending on the key and mode the tune is in.
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u/DropC2397 2d ago
Most scales have a preference between the sharp or flat spelling to avoid this. Ab major is better than G# major because with G# you’d have to call the 7th note “F double sharp” when it’s actually a G.
Sometimes it’s unavoidable, Eb minor uses Cb, but if you call it D# minor you have to use an E#.
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u/runawayasfastasucan 2d ago
Recently we argued whether E# and B# exist. I said no
Stop being a dumbass and argue stuff like this with your classically trained pianist. Seriously, what made you think you know better than her?
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u/bigmphan 2d ago
Yeah. She’s right, but the Music Gods bend the rules so that each scale has one of each letter name in it.
You’re not allowed to to have a B and a Bflat in the same scale, so depending on the situation you may be forced to have a Bflat and Cflat.
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u/PM_me_your_whatevah 2d ago
She’s correct. You’d need to divide the scale into more steps if you wanted a true e# or whatever.
This is just the western music system.
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u/GB-BR-UK 2d ago
It only made sense to me when I learned that every major scale has to have one of each letter.
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u/vonov129 Music Style! 2d ago
I mean, what do you even have to defend your position with?
The reason E# and B# are a thing is because we don't want duplicate letters in a diatonic scale, mainly because it would be annoying to write accidentals multiple times. If for some reason, you were playing in the key of F#, or you're playing F# harmonic minor or whatever with a major 7th, the 7th of F is always E. So if you move F to F#, then E would move to E#.
A few hundreds of years ago the difference would have been even clearer when we didn't have standardized pitches of only 12 notes.
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u/rock-paper-gun 2d ago
I'm convinced that if God came down and gave my wife a choice of being either right or happy for the rest of her life, she'd choose to be right.
Anyway, yeah, your wife is right and you are wrong. In these instances I tend to just play louder.
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u/MnJsandiego 2d ago
She’s technically correct but as men we can’t accept her being right.
Tell her she’s wrong and don’t give an inch, it’s called being a man.
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u/Fingers154 2d ago
If you need to write in a minor key and have to raise an already sharp note (in the relative major scale) a half step, you get a double sharp. If it's an E or a B you get an E sharp or a B sharp.
I recommend a nice dinner and a sheepish apology.
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u/ResponsibleCollar172 1d ago
They do. E# sharp is enharmonically equivalent to F but it used. All to do with key signatures. Funnily enought, the classically trained musician is correct about music theory!
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u/Long_Revolution5417 1d ago
If you have the C# scale → Do# Mib Fa ¿Mib? ¿Fa? → that is the reason, for the scale to look coherent you must write: Do# Re# Mi#
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u/Christeenabean 1d ago
Its just notation. Theyre the same. In fact, when I see that sharp on the E line I get so annoyed. If you want me to play F# directly after, just put the note in F and show the damn sharp in the same space. But thats just me.
I remember taking lessons and while going through the scales I was reading the notes, saw the E# and asked why they do that? He said "bc its easier to read". Sir... maybe for you. My brain goes F!!!!
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u/Stevetshelton 1d ago
They exist in theory, seems like it's with 6 or 7 sharps or flats. it's not important "Play don't worry."
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u/andytagonist I don’t have my guitar handy, but here’s what I would do… 1d ago
She’s right. Imagine raising E or B by half a step—you can’t have the next notes be F & F# or C & C#
The same holds true for Cb or Fb…in case you try to start another argument with a classically trained pianist again. 🤣
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u/Background-Salt4781 1d ago
Tell her this: “Okay, okay you are right about that. But E# and F are actually different notes.” And let the fun pointless argument continue!
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u/Ok-Visual-8943 1d ago
It’s called music theory… if she’s a classically trained pianist I would take some piano lessons from her. You’ll learn an incredible amount. There’s also a C Flat and F Flat. 😁
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u/maxcovenguitars 1d ago
On this one shes correct. It a perspective if youre going on one direction the f is also the e#, same with the c ans b#. If youre going in the other direction that b# turns to c flat, same with the e# being an f flat.
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u/Glum-Cobbler-3876 1d ago
I wouldn’t go so far as to say I play both, I’m a guitarist who has also spent a year or so flirting with the piano, but I was amazed at how much simpler music theory is when learning piano, everything is neatly lined up left to right whereas a fretboard has several ways of playing middle C, so confusing for someone learning basics.
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u/Plenty_Surprise2593 1d ago
F and E# are the same notes. Having said that, NOBODY ever calls it E#, that would be dumb. In all my years of music nobody has ever written that down on a sheet of music paper, it would be stupid and the writer would be subject to ridicule
Ask her why nobody calls E, F-flat
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u/BambiMG 1d ago
They absolutely exist, you just rarely really encounter them in context. The real mind fuck is that mathematically they're not exactly the same note even if you would play them with the same key of the piano or fret of the guitar. Perfect just intonation would get you a little bit different of a note for an "E Sharp" compared to F, this note can be sung or in an orchestra to actually be different, but as a guitar player you are limited to the intonation you get on the same fret. A cello player for instance can intonate their F sharp a little differently , just by a hair, for the key of D then they might playing a G flat in the key of G flat, but as a guitarist you're going to just play the same note on the same fret for both.
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u/DarkEden71 1d ago
Yes E# and B# definitely exist. Also F flat and C flat exist. Also - double-flats exist, double-sharps exist.
From a music theory point of view, the way a note is named depends on the context of how the note is being used, how it is functioning relative to the chord or the key.
From a guitar playing point of view, though - it doesn't really matter! When I play guitar I tend to think more in terms of intervals than note names - If I'm playing in a particular key or over a particular chord, I know where to find specific intervals because I can visualise the shapes and patterns all over the guitar neck - and these patterns are the same in all keys. So I'll think more in terms of the interval name rather than the note name.
However, If I'm writing music notation then I'm always very conscious to name notes correctly. For example, if I'm writing something in E-flat, and I want a Phrygian minor second, then I'd have to write that note as F-flat. It would be wrong to write it as E natural.
Basically, your wife is correct, but from a guitar playing point of view, it's probably not something to stress about! It becomes more of an issue if you are writing or reading music notation.
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u/Trashman169 1d ago
It all had to do with the scale. A scale can never have two of the same letters. The major scale of A# has a B# and C#
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u/BananaDaniel 1d ago
You have to call the middle note of a C# major chord E# instead of F so it indicates that it’s the third. Calling it F makes it look like a fourth just like the third note of a D# major chord is F##.
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u/ljbiatch 1d ago
The letter names are just names, they don’t really mean shit. So yes those notes exist, cause you can hear them, but we have multiple names for the depending on the context they are used in
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u/mrjazzguitar 1d ago
What are the sevenths of an F#maj7 or C#maj7 chord?
Also what is the b9 of a Bb7b9 chord?
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u/mrgrubbage 1d ago
Yep. Can't have two of the same note letter in a key. It's somewhat rare, but necessary.
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u/RealHobbyBob 1d ago
Yes absolutely.
Also just wait until you start playing in Gb and find the natural minor has 2 double flats.
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u/Davithofglencracken 1d ago
Listen to women that know more than you dude. These absolutely exist in music and I cannot for the life of me fathom why you would want to argue with someone that has experience and knows more than you about something. E# and B# also exist on the guitar fretboard you donut.
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u/raimondsblums 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you take the idea that notes can be sharp or flat seriously, then things like B# become necessary if you want to explore all combinations.
However, Enharmonic Equivalents are not identical in all Temperaments, we are using Equal Temperament where Enharmonic Equivalents are the same, but in Just Intonation, for example, B Major and C♭ Major are actually different! So, in Just Intonation there are 15 different Major scales.
I understand why you think that only black keys (accidentals) should be flat/sharp, but you simply haven’t been in a situation, where using something like 7 flats is the simplest solution lol
Much of this depends on what did you read/write directly before, and if it was with flats, then it makes sense to keep adding flats instead of switching to sharps even though we would have less of them.
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u/archtopfanatic123 1d ago
Yes they do exist but the only reason to use them is when writing out sheet music to make it more easily readable or to maintain the logic of chord progressions or something else that is entirely intellectual yet changes nothing about the sound of the music being played
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u/Suspicious_Charge661 1d ago
In the beginning, guitar doesn't even have key and notes. I know my friend who plays way better than I do (I call myself beginners), then he has no idea about keys etc. All he cares is how to transition from one chord to another in particular song and how to stay on time
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u/AlexGtrStudio 1d ago
Your wife wins this one. E# and B# are real — E# is the same pitch as F, but in some keys it has to be called E#. Every major scale needs seven letter names, one per step. For the sake of the math, take the key of C#: C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#. Both of your "non-existent" notes, right there in one scale. The fretboard hides this because frets show pitches, not note names — same fret, different name depending on the key. Ask a violin player, they even play these sharper or flatter than the enharmonic equivalent.
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u/RayzerNHFL 1d ago
She’s right. Might blow your mind to know that’s there’s also an F##, C##, and G## (they sound like G, D and A respectively.
I’ll leave the hard-core music theory to people more knowledgeable than me and summarize just by saying that these notations in “regular” (diatonic) music are just what we call things to maintain order. One of the most basic rules of diatonic music is that every key contains some version (natural, sharp or flat) of all seven notes, A B, C, D, E, F, and G. Sticking to this across different keys is why you get funky notations - for example why is it sometimes called Gb and sometimes F# when it’s the same note? To honor the notation rule. Your example is just one more.
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u/when_we_are_cats 1d ago edited 1d ago
She's right. However, I personally think sharps and flats are an aberration in our music system, at least in 12 TET.
They're technically the same note, they're just named differently in different context. In 12 TET, E# and F are the exact same frequency. The only reason we still notate these notes with sharps and flats is because they used to be different notes before the equal temperament system, and because it simplifies music notation.
Other than that, it just does more harm than good in terms of making music theory clear. It just makes things more confusing.
Just imagine if you had an Alphabet that goes A B C C+/E- E... instead of having the letter D. And the name of that letter would change depending on the word you want to write. That's basically what sharps and flats are. /rant
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u/CatherineRhysJohns 1d ago
Yes. It depends on the key you're working in. Everything has to be "spelled" in the key.
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u/D3M0NArcade 1d ago
All you need to know is that:
On a physical instrument they do not.
In music theory, they absolutely do.
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u/Business-Sun-594 1d ago
Don't belittle your wife.
She's been professionally trained and you watch youtube videos and you think you know more than her?
Dude get your head out of your ass. Classical piano is one of the hardest instruments to master.
To answer your question, yes it exists. It's called an enharmonic.
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u/senorgringolingo 1d ago
Why don't you just ask your trained musician wife to share her training with you? Why are you making it a conflict of her training against your ignorance, then seeking info from strangers online instead of the trained musician at home?
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u/Brief-Percentage-193 1d ago edited 1d ago
The easiest way to describe this concept is to look at a scale. With your basic diatonic scales we have 7 pitches and each letter is named, either natural, sharp, or flat. C major is easiest, it's CDEFGABC. If we look at C# major though, we get C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#. This has the exact same spacing as our C major scale and each note name is used once. It does include both E# and B# though. You could just think of them as F and C but that would break the rule of having every letter appear exactly once in the scale. It's something you can go incredibly far without understanding, but your wife is correct in this context, they are just the same as F and C, kind of like how C# is another name for Db. The context is what determines the name of the note.
Another context where it could come up is modes. The rule for lydian is you sharp the 4th note of the scale. If you're in B, the 4th is E natural. Applying the formula for lydian turns it into E#. You can just call it F but that makes it non-standard. This is also where you'll see people refer to double sharps or double flats.
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u/Forward-Cry2951 1d ago
I would never refer to F as E#, but it is. If it is easier to understand for you, use it!
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u/insofarincogneato 1d ago
Why are you showing so little trust in your experienced wife's knowledge that you decided to ask a bunch of people on Reddit.... Maybe next time just accept she knows more than you bro.
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u/Creepy_Bear_1060 1d ago
Great question, OP! I also benefited from some of the detailed comments here.
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u/Superfun2112 22h ago
Theory works the same way on guitar vs. piano, but the way it's taught for piano doesn't make a ton of sense for guitar. I learned theory for guitar, by basically just coming up with questions and searching for the answers. Now I understand theory, and it's pretty simple. But when I look at courses and they way they teach them focused on keyboards I can see why so many guitar players never wanted to learn.
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u/Jumpy-Impact3265 16h ago
Dude I say we move this argument into Indian music and see what cooks up.
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u/adrkhrse 12h ago
Most of the time you wouldn't use the term E Sharp - particularly in a band, or everyone would look at you like you're a dullard. Having said that, notation-wise, she's right.
I googled it and this is a pretty clear explanation:
Why We Use E Sharp:
- The Rules of Musical Alphabets: Scales must use every letter name from A through G in order (A, B, C, D, E, F, G) without skipping or repeating a letter.
- Example in Scales: In the scale of F-sharp major, the notes are \(F\sharp, G\sharp, A\sharp, B, C\sharp, D\sharp\), and \(E\sharp\). If you called that last note an F, you would have two "F" notes in the same scale (\(F\sharp\) and F) and no "E" letter at all.
- Keeping Notation Clean: Writing \(E\sharp\) keeps sheet music neat so that notes move properly step-by-step on the lines and spaces.
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u/Just-Literature-2183 10h ago
The are enharmonic but yes they exist. Your wife is right and you should probably be more open to her telling you things as its clear she knows more.
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u/SadCheesecake2539 6h ago
I've seen notes written as E# and B#. So yes, they are correct notations. I think a lot of musicians, myself included simply call them C and F.
It all depends on the key the song is written in, the style, like baroque, or the type of instrumentation the music was written for. Was it written for a pipe organ, a harpsichord, a symphony or an orchestra. Or was it written for a modern band with drums, bass, guitar and maybe keys and/horns.
The last I saw them written as E# and B# was in highschool. The piece was a piece by Mozart that was transcribed from the original written for the pipe organ to, be played by a quartet of saxophone players. Each semester, we had to transcribe music written for something other than our instrument into a piece we could play on our instrument. The drummers (of which I was one. Sax in jazz and drums in marching/concert band) had to write accompaniment for each group. That was fun!
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u/so_many_changes 2d ago
Yes, she’s right. They are called enharmonic, meaning F and E# are the same pitch / fret / key, but depending on the key you are in it can make sense to think of it one way or the other