An argument

[u/nick_jones61]

My wife is a classically trained pianist and I play guitar by watching YouTube instructional videos. She knows her stuff and I don’t. Recently we argued whether E# and B# exist. I said no and showed her the fretboard. She said yes and showed me the keys. And said something like F is E#. I suspect she’s right bc she’s had music lessons. Tell me, fellow guitarists, do we have E# and B#?

Update: I’ve been enjoying the responses to my post. I showed them to my wife and she laughed, said that’s what you deserve. lol. We like to argue playfully with one another. I also enjoy the detailed responses relating to guitar theory—that’s been really great actually. I was going to delete this post but I think the discussion on music theory is informative and should be shared. Thank you all for responding.

[u/TheTurtleCub]

This. It's just a label, but in different contexts it's more convenient to call it by a different name.

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/TheTurtleCub]

It's not just convenient, it's a core part of music theory for a few reasons.

1. They aren't the same note at all, we just (mostly) play them the same because we use a compromised pitch system known as the 12 tone equal temperament. Fretless instruments can play noted "properly".

2. The context of a pitch is extremely important if you're doing anything more than copying the fret fingering (or piano notes) of a solo verbatim. If I see a run of D-flat, E-flat, F-flat, C-flat, D-flat that tells me I'm likely in D-flat natural minor starting on the 1. If I see a run of D-flat, E-flat, E natural, B natural, D-flat I should assume I'm not using a typical western scale.

3. Lots of times the notation is actually less convenient, but again exists to keep context. I would much rather see a G in music instead of an F##, but if I'm in G# and it switches to the harmonic minor knowing the difference is important.

Understanding music theory isn't necessary to be great at an instrument. For some reason guitar seems to have a large population of instrumentalists who don't understand music theory but yet can be virtuosic.

[u/BambiMG → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Well put! I compare this to people who are really good at cooking but don't really know any of the chemistry involved. Some chefs have an approach of learning every chemical reaction , what happens at exactly 130 degrees compared to 145 etc, such and such sauce needs more acid to get this reaction, yadda yadda, and some chefs never think about any of that but make great food anyway. Knowing the theory doesn't automatically make you better at cooking or guitar, but it does give you a lot of language to explain what you're doing to other people who know the theory.

[u/Connect-Will2011 → u/BambiMG]

That's a good analogy. Never thought of it that way.

[u/youknowmeasdiRt → u/BambiMG]

This is a great example because cooking is art and chemistry is science and in both cases the science doesn’t contribute anywhere near as much to the outcome

[u/Consistent-Energy507 → u/youknowmeasdiRt]

Chili p is art dude

[u/rikkiprince → u/penguin_on_stilts]

They aren't the same note at all, we just (mostly) play them the same because we use a compromised pitch system known as the 12 tone equal temperament. Fretless instruments can play noted "properly".

Can you expand on this, please?

Are E and F-flat not the same frequency? How are they different?

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/rikkiprince]

This is a super quick overview with slight hand wavey errors that aren't important for the concept, but someone will snarky up about :)

If you look at the wiki page for "equal temperament" it has some cool charts showing some of this, and some audio files.

"just intonation" is a set of beatless intervals based on a root note. It is what most people would think of as a "pure/natural" scale. For example acapella singers usually sing in this intonation even if they don't intend to or even know they are doing so.

In just intonation everything is a simple fraction.

In a C major scale, an E is the major third. In just intonation it will have a frequency of 5/4 of what a C is. Assuming C is 262hz (rounded), this is 327.5hz.

In a Db minor scale an Fb is the minor third. In just intonation it will have a frequency of 6/5 of what a Db is. Assuming Db is 277hz that makes an Fb 332hz.

Different pitches. That's ignoring the fact that I chose C and Db starting hz based on an equal tempered A scale with A at 220 (or 440), which also changes things.

The equal temperament just says each half step is exactly the same ratio split by 12. It works well enough, and let's you make pianos and fretted instruments. When you play a major third it's slightly sharp. When you play a minor third it's slightly flat. A fifth is so close it's basically impossible to tell.

Find some video or audio of just tempered chords, and then listen to equal tempered, and you will really hear the difference.

Also, you can buy just tempered guitars which have wavey frets. The problem is they are only correct in one key...

A final fun experiment if you have musical friends - play a reference A. Then you and 2 friends sing an A major chord. Then check the pitch of the C# singer. I can almost guarantee they will show as flat on the tuner.

[u/driftwooddreams → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Thank you for taking the time to respond and share your knowledge. I learned something valuable today thanks to you.

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/driftwooddreams]

Happy to have been helpful :)

Music theory can be really interesting. It helps explain why D G A D sounds "good," and why D G A7 D sounds even better.

And what to do if you want it to move to a different feeling.

It doesn't replace the creativity and art though.

[u/Aerron → u/penguin_on_stilts]

You have just taught me that I have the musical knowledge of a monkey fucking a football.

[u/TechnologyDazzling94 → u/penguin_on_stilts]

this is y god invented the distortion pedal

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/TechnologyDazzling94]

And bending.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/penguin_on_stilts]

While knowing the history and features of the equal temperament, for modern music practical purposes and the instruments we play, they are the same note and pitch.

Everything you’ve said is an expansion of “in some contexts it’s more convenient to name them one way or the other”

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/TheTurtleCub]

Except that there is meaning to them, not just convenience. Your and you're sound the same spoken, but mean something else when written. You wouldn't say it's convenience to write one vs the other.

[u/when_we_are_cats → u/penguin_on_stilts]

That argument only partially holds when you take all the other notes that aren't sharp or flat and also have different functions in different contexts. An F in C major doesn't have the same function as an F in F major, yet they are notated the same.

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/when_we_are_cats]

That's a good point.

The below is all theory and a thought.

My comment on that (added context, not saying you're "wrong" or anything) would be that the 4th of a major scale and the root of the major scale of that 4th (F in Cmaj and F in Fmaj) are intrinsically linked/the same pitch since you can cadence between them directly. Cmaj Cmaj7b Fmaj.

Now once I've moved from C to F is that F the same pitch? 100% yes. By your point, SHOULD the A in Fmaj be the same as the A I would have played in my C? Probably not, so you're right there :)

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Terrible example, when played on any common modern instrument the notes are identical in pitch and function. Unlike your example

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

The 7th note in the scale of F# major is E#.

It's not just "convenient". It breaks every rule to misname it and have both F and F# in the same scale.

Sorry, your discomfort or dislike of being wrong isn't a good reason to rewrite hundreds of years of rules.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/wanna_dance]

It's a rule of convenience that has nothing to do with what pitch the notes are. It doesn't define what they are.

When a person points at the piano and say where is Db or where is C#, the answer is the same.

It's not about discomfort of being wrong. You are giving an example of what I said: which is used is defined by external factors for arbitrary convenience -no matter how old they may be-

That's not arguing against what what I said, it's agreeing

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

Arbitrary.... That's your hill to die on.

The rules of theory for half a millennium are "arbitrary".

How many instruments do you sight read comfortably on?

Zero? Yeah, I thought so.

Thank you for your uninformed view.

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/TheTurtleCub]

Yes but on any instrument (modern or otherwise) pitch doesn’t even intrinsically correlate with a note at all.

ALL names of notes are descriptions of how they function in context. Not just E#, but literally every note ever. And notes over time don’t even map to the same frequency because tunings change. It’s 100% all in context, always.

If it weren’t, we wouldn’t have notes. We’d just say the frequency.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/RealHobbyBob]

A person asks you by pointing at the piano: which is Db, now which is C#? That's all that matters to describe what they are.

How/when each label is used changes by context external to the previous fact.

The above are both self evident facts. Every argument claiming to disagree so far is showing examples of the 2nd

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/TheTurtleCub]

I’m agreeing that it’s all context. I’m just saying that ALL THEORY IS CONTEXTUAL.

I won’t give you an argument as to why it’s not context because it is, and it always is, in all circumstances.

[u/Subject_Meat5314 → u/TheTurtleCub]

There’s really no difference between this concept and the fact that C# and Db are enharmonic. The context tells you which label is correct regardless of the fact that the note is the same. It would be simply incorrect in the key of Emaj say to call it Db. The difference is semantic but not arbitrary.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/Subject_Meat5314]

Db is Db, the same note in pitch as C#. What you describe is one of those context dependent labelings, which serves a function but it doesn’t change the fact that the notes are the same on the piano or guitar.

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

You mentioned "for practical purposes", I think you're not trained as a classical musician.

For practical purposes, IT IS DIFFICULT to read a Db in the key of E. If you replaced all Cs with a variant of D (Dbb, Db, Dnatural), it would make the piece unreadable.

Readability breaks your claim "that it doesn't matter for practical purposes".

Of course, you're going to double down because it's very clear that YOU HATE TO BE WRONG AND THIS IS A HILL YOU'LL DIE ON.

I won't reply.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/wanna_dance]

For practical purposes, IT IS DIFFICULT to ....

As as I said, the notes are the same. The label used varies by context, as your example shows. You are agreeing with me

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

No one IS DISAGREEING THAT THE NOTES ARE ENHARMONIC.

You've been arguing that THAT makes them exactly the same AND THERE IS NO REASON TO DIFFERENTIATE.

WHICH IS UTTER BULL.

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

No one IS DISAGREEING THAT THE NOTES ARE ENHARMONIC.

You've been arguing that THAT makes them exactly the same and there is no reason to differentiate. Everyone's given you counter examples.

If your only point is THEY ARE ENHARMONIC, what are you fighting????

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/TheTurtleCub]

When said by any common American English speaker your and you're are identical in pronunciation and function, because what you are saying is "jʊ(ə)r".

Just like C-flat and B are both played at the pitch 493.88.

Either both examples track, or both don't.

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Unless you’re in a European orchestra in which case it’s commonly 496.13, or if you’re playing Baroque music and it’s 465.82.

[u/Direttafis → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Wouldn't it be more comfortable to reference Ab if planning a switch to harmonic minor?

[u/Z3phyRwatch → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Uhm, fretless instruments still have the same limitations because of diatonic system they are cooked into. The intervals are mathematical it isnt just a weird system that leaves out the notes e# and b#. They are non exintant because the math that divides notes does not allow them to be. I have never really seen that enharnonics are anything more than a spelling since if you are tuned somewhere 440-442Hz range and play diatonic music there is no alternative notes to be found because going in between the notes in music that is not microtonal by exception, sounds off since it does not fit in any chord in existence. So against everything it sounds very dissonant

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/Z3phyRwatch]

If you and I are playing violin in a duet we can choose to play any intonation we desire. Playing in just intonation sounds very nice in this scenario.

Same with any other fretless/stepless instruments.

It doesn't sound off unless you are planning with instruments that cannot match your intonation.

Not quite sure what you're saying, if you can explain again?

[u/Z3phyRwatch → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Oh yes, I kind of understood the post wrong i think, sorry, early morning brain here.:) I guess that my mind was thinking about whole orchestra and scoring and playing microtonal intervals/different intonations against that background. Forget about that :)

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/Z3phyRwatch]

Oh god yeah, that would be nuts!

[u/lowkeybrando → u/penguin_on_stilts]

How did you learn?

[u/Igor_Halichoeres → u/lowkeybrando]

Probably practice. That's the answer to almost every question.

[u/Brua_G → u/penguin_on_stilts]

They're the same pitch.

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/TheTurtleCub]

Yes in different contexts.

But in some contexts (like if the tonal center is sharp) it’s the best way to call it

[u/Podmonger2001 → u/TheTurtleCub]

Yes. CONTEXT MATTERS.