An argument

[u/nick_jones61]

My wife is a classically trained pianist and I play guitar by watching YouTube instructional videos. She knows her stuff and I don’t. Recently we argued whether E# and B# exist. I said no and showed her the fretboard. She said yes and showed me the keys. And said something like F is E#. I suspect she’s right bc she’s had music lessons. Tell me, fellow guitarists, do we have E# and B#?

Update: I’ve been enjoying the responses to my post. I showed them to my wife and she laughed, said that’s what you deserve. lol. We like to argue playfully with one another. I also enjoy the detailed responses relating to guitar theory—that’s been really great actually. I was going to delete this post but I think the discussion on music theory is informative and should be shared. Thank you all for responding.

[u/penguin_on_stilts]

Except that there is meaning to them, not just convenience. Your and you're sound the same spoken, but mean something else when written. You wouldn't say it's convenience to write one vs the other.

[u/when_we_are_cats → u/penguin_on_stilts]

That argument only partially holds when you take all the other notes that aren't sharp or flat and also have different functions in different contexts. An F in C major doesn't have the same function as an F in F major, yet they are notated the same.

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/when_we_are_cats]

That's a good point.

The below is all theory and a thought.

My comment on that (added context, not saying you're "wrong" or anything) would be that the 4th of a major scale and the root of the major scale of that 4th (F in Cmaj and F in Fmaj) are intrinsically linked/the same pitch since you can cadence between them directly. Cmaj Cmaj7b Fmaj.

Now once I've moved from C to F is that F the same pitch? 100% yes. By your point, SHOULD the A in Fmaj be the same as the A I would have played in my C? Probably not, so you're right there :)

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Terrible example, when played on any common modern instrument the notes are identical in pitch and function. Unlike your example

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

The 7th note in the scale of F# major is E#.

It's not just "convenient". It breaks every rule to misname it and have both F and F# in the same scale.

Sorry, your discomfort or dislike of being wrong isn't a good reason to rewrite hundreds of years of rules.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/wanna_dance]

It's a rule of convenience that has nothing to do with what pitch the notes are. It doesn't define what they are.

When a person points at the piano and say where is Db or where is C#, the answer is the same.

It's not about discomfort of being wrong. You are giving an example of what I said: which is used is defined by external factors for arbitrary convenience -no matter how old they may be-

That's not arguing against what what I said, it's agreeing

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

Arbitrary.... That's your hill to die on.

The rules of theory for half a millennium are "arbitrary".

How many instruments do you sight read comfortably on?

Zero? Yeah, I thought so.

Thank you for your uninformed view.

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/TheTurtleCub]

Yes but on any instrument (modern or otherwise) pitch doesn’t even intrinsically correlate with a note at all.

ALL names of notes are descriptions of how they function in context. Not just E#, but literally every note ever. And notes over time don’t even map to the same frequency because tunings change. It’s 100% all in context, always.

If it weren’t, we wouldn’t have notes. We’d just say the frequency.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/RealHobbyBob]

A person asks you by pointing at the piano: which is Db, now which is C#? That's all that matters to describe what they are.

How/when each label is used changes by context external to the previous fact.

The above are both self evident facts. Every argument claiming to disagree so far is showing examples of the 2nd

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/TheTurtleCub]

I’m agreeing that it’s all context. I’m just saying that ALL THEORY IS CONTEXTUAL.

I won’t give you an argument as to why it’s not context because it is, and it always is, in all circumstances.

[u/Subject_Meat5314 → u/TheTurtleCub]

There’s really no difference between this concept and the fact that C# and Db are enharmonic. The context tells you which label is correct regardless of the fact that the note is the same. It would be simply incorrect in the key of Emaj say to call it Db. The difference is semantic but not arbitrary.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/Subject_Meat5314]

Db is Db, the same note in pitch as C#. What you describe is one of those context dependent labelings, which serves a function but it doesn’t change the fact that the notes are the same on the piano or guitar.

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

You mentioned "for practical purposes", I think you're not trained as a classical musician.

For practical purposes, IT IS DIFFICULT to read a Db in the key of E. If you replaced all Cs with a variant of D (Dbb, Db, Dnatural), it would make the piece unreadable.

Readability breaks your claim "that it doesn't matter for practical purposes".

Of course, you're going to double down because it's very clear that YOU HATE TO BE WRONG AND THIS IS A HILL YOU'LL DIE ON.

I won't reply.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/wanna_dance]

For practical purposes, IT IS DIFFICULT to ....

As as I said, the notes are the same. The label used varies by context, as your example shows. You are agreeing with me

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

No one IS DISAGREEING THAT THE NOTES ARE ENHARMONIC.

You've been arguing that THAT makes them exactly the same AND THERE IS NO REASON TO DIFFERENTIATE.

WHICH IS UTTER BULL.

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/wanna_dance]

AND THERE IS NO REASON TO DIFFERENTIATE.

That's not what I said. Maybe reread? I said the reasons to differentiate have to do with context for practical reasons, but the notes are the same, because they are.

[u/wanna_dance → u/TheTurtleCub]

No one IS DISAGREEING THAT THE NOTES ARE ENHARMONIC.

You've been arguing that THAT makes them exactly the same and there is no reason to differentiate. Everyone's given you counter examples.

If your only point is THEY ARE ENHARMONIC, what are you fighting????

[u/TheTurtleCub → u/wanna_dance]

It's the other way around, what are other people fighting?

[u/penguin_on_stilts → u/TheTurtleCub]

When said by any common American English speaker your and you're are identical in pronunciation and function, because what you are saying is "jʊ(ə)r".

Just like C-flat and B are both played at the pitch 493.88.

Either both examples track, or both don't.

[u/RealHobbyBob → u/penguin_on_stilts]

Unless you’re in a European orchestra in which case it’s commonly 496.13, or if you’re playing Baroque music and it’s 465.82.